I'm 61. I've have a good life compared to most of the world, but the biggest source of long term anxiety in my life has been from a Baptist church I visited with a friend when I was about 10 years old. During a revival, this "preacher" drilled home the eternal damnation and burning forever with no relief. That changed me to the core. Over the years, growing up and college, and marriage, and tried to put it out of my mind, and got to where I thought it "probably" wasn't true...but I naturally have anxiety, and when it would flair up, it would feed off the fear of hell, sometimes making me unable to work. It's been a long journey and even though I dont believe in hell now, a certain amount of fear is still there. So parents...watch what kind of church message your kids are exposed to! It can do more harm than you can imagine.
BandB111111 - I’m an archaeologist, biblical scholar, and comparative theologian who has specialized on the ancient religions of the Near East and the Classical world. I know it’s easier said then done, but let me try and dispel your fears: there is no GOD, no Heaven, no eternal damnation, and certainly no Hellfire - so don’t worry. If GOD did exist, HE would be All-Good and All-Loving, and would not condemn any part of HIS creation - let alone HIS children - to eternal punishment. This kind of nonsense was invented by typical human fear, ignorance, and cruelty, and is being perpetuated by misanthropic ‘douchebags’ looking to enrich themselves on our frailties, insecurities, and guilt. Peace be with you.
This is also my story, I live with the fear of hell even though I no longer believe. I was raised in this type of church too at a young age. My story is long and twisted up with this harmful nonsense. It took me a long time to get out of it and now I am out that is so much better.
As the great Mark Twain said : religion began when the first fool met the first conman . The arrogance , violence , fraudulence and crinimality is unbounded .
@@dondgc2298Someone called Corbett claimed in court when using it in his defence that it was from Mark Twain or the judge took it as such - but in fact he was paraphrasing a translation from Voltaire. The meme is from Corbett's version.
Just recently left Jehovah’s Witnesses recognising I’ve been part of a Cult and heard this and absolutely loved this interview! I’ve been part of a narcissistic organisation that I’m glad to be out of and yes I believe that religion is toxic!
If somebody is shaming you for the slightest of infractions, intimidating you with eternal hell, giving you hopes that are unattainable, and making grandiose promises, and wanting the involvement of your children and wanting your children to not have any autonomy ... then that person is promoting a religion. That sums up all of the Judeo-Christian religions. Atheism is a denial that they have any authority over you. They don't. All authority is only given by consent. Authority coerced in any way at all is not authority. Governments should remain free of religious authority of all kinds. Only a governement should have the use of coercion. And even when a government coerces it still takes consent for that government to have power over you as an individual. I am glad you are free now. Welcome to a world where you are not as alone as you thought you were.
carolreilly1697: *You were a Christian wanna be and not a die-hard servant of GOD, a die-hard servant of GOD never waivers, all you've done is fulfill Scripture, in the last days many will fall away, you did nothing special that hasn't been expected and there will be more like you, it is already prophesied and expected, all prophecy must be fulfilled.*
I became a pastor at 20 and have been following the church narrative. Around 5 years ago I had an epiphany and realized that I was gaslit and I was 55, very jaded. I've been studying scriptures and history to discover the truth about the church and it's teachings.
Dig deep Steve, dig very deep! you'll be in for shocks and surprises if you go deep enough, I was a Catholic and when I took my faith very seriously, you wouldn't believe the can of worms it opened, it took over 40 years to discover what I did but it totally destroyed Christianity and all religious beliefs, people don't know the half of it, what a revolution there would be if the full revelation was disclosed.
I was an eight year old boy standing in our church, (I'm 61 today) listening to the message and it hit me. " This is nonsense. I'm wasting my time here. " No intellectual study needed just primal instincts which told me to walk past the Snake Oil Salesman. Religion was never the tonic that I needed. That void was filled by reading the ancient Greeks Philosophers. I do appreciate Dr. MacDonald's comment... "mythology is a tool used to frame ones truth." Of course this is true. Indigenous cultures have been practicing this method for millennia. I'm so happy to have found this channel and to be among you all.
This is so amazing to hear on RU-vid. Idont believe in Religions and have been an outsider to most Americans and especially African Americans. My mom was raised catholic and believes in Saints and things. I have traveled to many countries and came to the conclusion that people believe what their community/ countries teaches teaches. Im not a Buddhist but its interesting. I hope more People open their minds and try to listen to talk like this. After all it is 2023, so much information available other than the village! Thank you!👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
As a former fundamentalist, this podcast blew my mind! OMG! Tim Mills thank you for your important work. I learned so much and gained much confidence in my deconstruction from fundamentalist religion. I’m going to listen to it again. I sent the link to my daughter who attended BJU for a year. I went to Foundations Bible College in Dunn, NC, in the 80’s which was founded by a BJU grad. EVERYTHING Dr. MacDonald said was so helpful. And the questions you asked were the ones I would have asked. Simply amazing and so healing and helpful and encouraging. I thank you, Tim Mills, from the bottom of my heart. I’m shaking my head at my past gullibility and breathing a sigh of relief at my present freedom from fundamentalist religion!
why would you be relieved if you didn't believe in your soul you are wrong and follow a life that is self serving. Religion was created by humans., inspired by evil. prob 90% of so called Christian church's are a self-serving false doctrine including the biggest historical heretics of them all....the catholic cult.......search for Christ through scripture and prayer of adoration and you will find the truth.....this is why scripture divulges that so many will take the road to death. Tim mills is so bitter and has so much devoted faith in.......nothing but himself,....the true tell of the self indulgent.
In the entire first Christian century Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religion scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! Zip references. Till 325 AD, not a single historian or writer wrote about Jesus Christ or any of his disciples . BEFORE THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA IN 325 AD, NOBODY ON THIS PLANET EVER HEARD OF THE NAMES JESUS CHRIST OR CHRISTIANITY. JESUS/ BIBLE / CHRISTIANTY WAS COOKED UP IN 325 AD, BY JEWESS HELENA , WHO SAT ON THE POPE'S CHAIR.. "Vatican is Evil terrorist satanic organisation." If Satan does exist, then he thrives inside the Roman Catholic Church. The dead sea scrolls covering the period from Birth of Jesus to 68 AD , does NOT say one word about Jesus or his 12 Apostles. Hellenistic philosopher Philo Judaeus of Alexandria (20 BCE-50 AD/CE)-alive at the purported time of Jesus, and one of the wealthiest and best connected citizens of the Empire- makes no mention of Christ, Christians or Christianity in his voluminous writings. Nor do any of the hundreds of other historians and writers who flourished during the first THREE centuries of the common era. The DEAD SEA SCROLLS were all written by Pagan Essenes . None of them have been edited by later Christians, as is the case with some other Jewish literature. All the scrolls (except a treasure map known as the Copper Scroll) can be dated prior to A.D. 68 or 69, when the Qumran settlement was believed to have been destroyed by the Romans in the Jewish revolt. The oldest of the scrolls probably goes back to the middle of the third century B.C. The people of Qumran belonged to a Pagan religious group known as the Essenes. Pliny the Elder, who died during the volcanic destruction of Pompeii in the year 79 A.D., described a community of pagan Essenes living on the western shore of the Dead Sea, close to where Khirbet Qumran is situated. John the Baptist was an ascetic Essene . He was a vegan and was uncircumcised . Various literary sources like Josephus and Philo tell clearly that Essenes were ascetics. We also know, from literary testimony, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the archaeological remains of Qumran, that the Essenes practiced many water baptisms for ritual purification-similar to a dip in the Ganges or the river Pampa or at Thiirunelli. At Qumran, however, all members of the community were baptized with water for ritual purification. Josephus writes, "And as for their piety towards God, it is very extraordinary; for before sunrising they speak not a word about profane matters, but put up certain prayers which they have received from their forefathers, as if they made a supplication for its rising" (Wars, 2.8.5). This testimony accords well with what we know from the Dead Sea Scrolls. Prayer and humility was one thing that the Essenes . When they cooked up stories about Jesus they wrote that Jesus Christ ate the Last Supper in the Essene part of town. Jesus is not historical character, The Dead Sea Scrolls have produced increasing evidence to cement the fact that Jesus Christ never existed and the whole story was cooked up at the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD. The FAKE gospels were written after 325 AD after Jesus was cooked up at the first Council of Nicea.. Twelve apostles of Jesus never existed. Jesus Christ names 12 apostles to spread his gospel, and the early Christian church owes its rapid rise to their missionary zeal. Yet, for most of the Twelve, there's scant evidence of their existence outside of the New Testament. The concept of using statistics to prove that 'God authored the Bible' is bullshit. Why was the library of Alexandria burnt ? The gospel of Thomas was not written by Jesus' disciple Thomas. Englishman Godfrey Higgins studied Greek, Latin and law at Cambridge . His two-volume, 867-page book Anacalypsis: An Enquiry into the Origins of Languages, Nations, and Religions, was published posthumously in 1836. In his treatise, Higgins writes " the mythos of the Jews and the mythos of the Greeks are all at bottom the same lifted from the ancient mythos of Hindus ; and ... are contrivances under the appearance of histories to perpetuate doctrines," and that Christian editors “either from roguery or folly, corrupted them all.” 1900, Scottish MP John Mackinnon Robertson wrote that Jesus never existed but was an FAKE invention by a first-century messianic cult. He wrote about the First Council of Nicea of 325 AD where powerful forces invented a new god to fit the needs of the society of the time .Robertson specifically mentions the Talmudic story of the Yeshu . Thomas says: "Simon Peter said to them, ‘Make Mary leave us, for females don’t deserve life.’ Jesus said, ‘Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven’" (Thomas 114). AIYOOOOO -even Christians don’t like this When the master of James baby Jesus Christ never existed -- how can his disciple St James exist ? Even since the dead sea scrolls have been discovered CHRISTIANS and JEWS are jumping up and down like demented orangutans claiming that Essenes belong to them. Dead Sea text or Qumran Scrolls have absolutely nothing ZILCH, to do with the Bible of the Torah - never mind the diabolical lies of the Christians and the Jews. For arguments sake -even if messiah Jesus Christ existed , the gospels were written a even a century after Jesus' estimated year of death, by individuals who never met Jesus, and then were edited or forged over the centuries by unknown scribes with their own agendas. Dead sea scrolls have been written by Essenes of the sect of Apollonius
Hard for me to imagine how anyone would not have a brain of their own to avoid swallowing this shite without chewing. Cannot fathom it. It always stunk of an old man's closet. But many good people have had their minds perverted with mythology-as-reality.
I’m baffled at your testimonies, my friends. I was born in Romania in 1965, when communism was flourishing, baptised at 6weeks of age in the orthodox tradition. My parents were indifferent orthodox people, at school we were taught in the secular French tradition. My gods were Darwin, Faraday Maxwell, Mendeleev and Mendel. I can’t imagine how life could be when you are in constant fear of hell…smh. Later I discovered the English literature and I was charmed for life. The sole thing I’m grateful to bloody communists is this freedom to choose the furniture of my mind. Stay strong and serene, friends.❤
IKR even worth it anymore to praise such a god that is probably evil and not all good? He's nothing but punishment and fear and just do whatever he wants to us for the fun of it 🤢
In the entire first Christian century Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religion scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! Zip references. Till 325 AD, not a single historian or writer wrote about Jesus Christ or any of his disciples . BEFORE THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA IN 325 AD, NOBODY ON THIS PLANET EVER HEARD OF THE NAMES JESUS CHRIST OR CHRISTIANITY. JESUS/ BIBLE / CHRISTIANTY WAS COOKED UP IN 325 AD, BY JEWESS HELENA , WHO SAT ON THE POPE'S CHAIR.. "Vatican is Evil terrorist satanic organisation." If Satan does exist, then he thrives inside the Roman Catholic Church. The dead sea scrolls covering the period from Birth of Jesus to 68 AD , does NOT say one word about Jesus or his 12 Apostles. Hellenistic philosopher Philo Judaeus of Alexandria (20 BCE-50 AD/CE)-alive at the purported time of Jesus, and one of the wealthiest and best connected citizens of the Empire- makes no mention of Christ, Christians or Christianity in his voluminous writings. Nor do any of the hundreds of other historians and writers who flourished during the first THREE centuries of the common era. The DEAD SEA SCROLLS were all written by Pagan Essenes . None of them have been edited by later Christians, as is the case with some other Jewish literature. All the scrolls (except a treasure map known as the Copper Scroll) can be dated prior to A.D. 68 or 69, when the Qumran settlement was believed to have been destroyed by the Romans in the Jewish revolt. The oldest of the scrolls probably goes back to the middle of the third century B.C. The people of Qumran belonged to a Pagan religious group known as the Essenes. Pliny the Elder, who died during the volcanic destruction of Pompeii in the year 79 A.D., described a community of pagan Essenes living on the western shore of the Dead Sea, close to where Khirbet Qumran is situated. John the Baptist was an ascetic Essene . He was a vegan and was uncircumcised . Various literary sources like Josephus and Philo tell clearly that Essenes were ascetics. We also know, from literary testimony, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the archaeological remains of Qumran, that the Essenes practiced many water baptisms for ritual purification-similar to a dip in the Ganges or the river Pampa or at Thiirunelli. At Qumran, however, all members of the community were baptized with water for ritual purification. Josephus writes, "And as for their piety towards God, it is very extraordinary; for before sunrising they speak not a word about profane matters, but put up certain prayers which they have received from their forefathers, as if they made a supplication for its rising" (Wars, 2.8.5). This testimony accords well with what we know from the Dead Sea Scrolls. Prayer and humility was one thing that the Essenes . When they cooked up stories about Jesus they wrote that Jesus Christ ate the Last Supper in the Essene part of town. Jesus is not historical character, The Dead Sea Scrolls have produced increasing evidence to cement the fact that Jesus Christ never existed and the whole story was cooked up at the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD. The FAKE gospels were written after 325 AD after Jesus was cooked up at the first Council of Nicea.. Twelve apostles of Jesus never existed. Jesus Christ names 12 apostles to spread his gospel, and the early Christian church owes its rapid rise to their missionary zeal. Yet, for most of the Twelve, there's scant evidence of their existence outside of the New Testament. The concept of using statistics to prove that 'God authored the Bible' is bullshit. Why was the library of Alexandria burnt ? The gospel of Thomas was not written by Jesus' disciple Thomas. Englishman Godfrey Higgins studied Greek, Latin and law at Cambridge . His two-volume, 867-page book Anacalypsis: An Enquiry into the Origins of Languages, Nations, and Religions, was published posthumously in 1836. In his treatise, Higgins writes " the mythos of the Jews and the mythos of the Greeks are all at bottom the same lifted from the ancient mythos of Hindus ; and ... are contrivances under the appearance of histories to perpetuate doctrines," and that Christian editors “either from roguery or folly, corrupted them all.” 1900, Scottish MP John Mackinnon Robertson wrote that Jesus never existed but was an FAKE invention by a first-century messianic cult. He wrote about the First Council of Nicea of 325 AD where powerful forces invented a new god to fit the needs of the society of the time .Robertson specifically mentions the Talmudic story of the Yeshu . Thomas says: "Simon Peter said to them, ‘Make Mary leave us, for females don’t deserve life.’ Jesus said, ‘Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven’" (Thomas 114). AIYOOOOO -even Christians don’t like this When the master of James baby Jesus Christ never existed -- how can his disciple St James exist ? Even since the dead sea scrolls have been discovered CHRISTIANS and JEWS are jumping up and down like demented orangutans claiming that Essenes belong to them. Dead Sea text or Qumran Scrolls have absolutely nothing ZILCH, to do with the Bible of the Torah - never mind the diabolical lies of the Christians and the Jews. For arguments sake -even if messiah Jesus Christ existed , the gospels were written a even a century after Jesus' estimated year of death, by individuals who never met Jesus, and then were edited or forged over the centuries by unknown scribes with their own agendas. Dead sea scrolls have been written by Essenes of the sect of Apollonius
Africa gave up its culture, identity, land and self respect because of these tales. Many are still saying that the atrocities they endured during colonialism was worth it because they gained Christianity. Unfortunately the christanity that had this moral vision was lost millenia ago. As soon as Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire, the image of God and his ways became the Old Testament Yahweh. The war god, the god of conquest, genocide, war and draconian law that worked mostly in one direction for the elevation of one group and for their supremacy. Jesus concept of God got kicked out of the church. The church, now married to the state became a war machine, and an engine of death to those not seen as chosen. It also became an engine of death as seen in the crusades, the inquisitions, the witch burnings and as it spread accross the Atlantic it brought genocide and also the brutal murders of those who were white, but disagreed in some areas of doctrine with the main group. People like the Anabaptist who were burnt alive for insisting that the ritual of baptism should only be done on adults. Then there is the long history of those who quote the bible most in anti- social-justice movements. The Bible belt went to war to maintain slavery. The were avid supported of segregation and strongly opposed the civil rights movement. It is clear that the old testament racist, supremacist god still rules the church, again the devotion to far right ideology and Trumpism. The church has been a consistent representative of its god throughout the roughly two millenia of its existence.
@@Matira269 Wherever christianity went drug alcohol and prostitution followed, just take a look of south america . Michael bentine They always distory local culture language art literature Philosophy.
This is great. I've been writing a book based on mythology vs religion. One day my daughter had to write an essay on the Adam and Eve story. She asked for help and I gave her a basic rundown and her eyes almost popped out of their sockets. She asked "Do people really believe that?"
I had the same feeling when I as a JW kid sat in a protestant church and the priest talked about the trinity. ”This must be a joke.” ”Why is no one laughing?” ”Adults can’t believe this nonsense, right?”
Thank you both so much for all your work. I especially love Dennis's early mention of why he left fundamentalism behind, blatant racism. Growing up in the south I saw this as well and it had the same effect, if this is what "the church" is, I don't want to be part of it. Like him I stayed in the faith and fought hard to teach the social aspects of "the go--spell" until in my 40's I finally realized that no one was listening or caring.
In the entire first Christian century Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religion scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! Zip references. Till 325 AD, not a single historian or writer wrote about Jesus Christ or any of his disciples . BEFORE THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA IN 325 AD, NOBODY ON THIS PLANET EVER HEARD OF THE NAMES JESUS CHRIST OR CHRISTIANITY. JESUS/ BIBLE / CHRISTIANTY WAS COOKED UP IN 325 AD, BY JEWESS HELENA , WHO SAT ON THE POPE'S CHAIR.. "Vatican is Evil terrorist satanic organisation." If Satan does exist, then he thrives inside the Roman Catholic Church. The dead sea scrolls covering the period from Birth of Jesus to 68 AD , does NOT say one word about Jesus or his 12 Apostles. Hellenistic philosopher Philo Judaeus of Alexandria (20 BCE-50 AD/CE)-alive at the purported time of Jesus, and one of the wealthiest and best connected citizens of the Empire- makes no mention of Christ, Christians or Christianity in his voluminous writings. Nor do any of the hundreds of other historians and writers who flourished during the first THREE centuries of the common era. The DEAD SEA SCROLLS were all written by Pagan Essenes . None of them have been edited by later Christians, as is the case with some other Jewish literature. All the scrolls (except a treasure map known as the Copper Scroll) can be dated prior to A.D. 68 or 69, when the Qumran settlement was believed to have been destroyed by the Romans in the Jewish revolt. The oldest of the scrolls probably goes back to the middle of the third century B.C. The people of Qumran belonged to a Pagan religious group known as the Essenes. Pliny the Elder, who died during the volcanic destruction of Pompeii in the year 79 A.D., described a community of pagan Essenes living on the western shore of the Dead Sea, close to where Khirbet Qumran is situated. John the Baptist was an ascetic Essene . He was a vegan and was uncircumcised . Various literary sources like Josephus and Philo tell clearly that Essenes were ascetics. We also know, from literary testimony, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the archaeological remains of Qumran, that the Essenes practiced many water baptisms for ritual purification-similar to a dip in the Ganges or the river Pampa or at Thiirunelli. At Qumran, however, all members of the community were baptized with water for ritual purification. Josephus writes, "And as for their piety towards God, it is very extraordinary; for before sunrising they speak not a word about profane matters, but put up certain prayers which they have received from their forefathers, as if they made a supplication for its rising" (Wars, 2.8.5). This testimony accords well with what we know from the Dead Sea Scrolls. Prayer and humility was one thing that the Essenes . When they cooked up stories about Jesus they wrote that Jesus Christ ate the Last Supper in the Essene part of town. Jesus is not historical character, The Dead Sea Scrolls have produced increasing evidence to cement the fact that Jesus Christ never existed and the whole story was cooked up at the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD. The FAKE gospels were written after 325 AD after Jesus was cooked up at the first Council of Nicea.. Twelve apostles of Jesus never existed. Jesus Christ names 12 apostles to spread his gospel, and the early Christian church owes its rapid rise to their missionary zeal. Yet, for most of the Twelve, there's scant evidence of their existence outside of the New Testament. The concept of using statistics to prove that 'God authored the Bible' is bullshit. Why was the library of Alexandria burnt ? The gospel of Thomas was not written by Jesus' disciple Thomas. Englishman Godfrey Higgins studied Greek, Latin and law at Cambridge . His two-volume, 867-page book Anacalypsis: An Enquiry into the Origins of Languages, Nations, and Religions, was published posthumously in 1836. In his treatise, Higgins writes " the mythos of the Jews and the mythos of the Greeks are all at bottom the same lifted from the ancient mythos of Hindus ; and ... are contrivances under the appearance of histories to perpetuate doctrines," and that Christian editors “either from roguery or folly, corrupted them all.” 1900, Scottish MP John Mackinnon Robertson wrote that Jesus never existed but was an FAKE invention by a first-century messianic cult. He wrote about the First Council of Nicea of 325 AD where powerful forces invented a new god to fit the needs of the society of the time .Robertson specifically mentions the Talmudic story of the Yeshu . Thomas says: "Simon Peter said to them, ‘Make Mary leave us, for females don’t deserve life.’ Jesus said, ‘Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven’" (Thomas 114). AIYOOOOO -even Christians don’t like this When the master of James baby Jesus Christ never existed -- how can his disciple St James exist ? Even since the dead sea scrolls have been discovered CHRISTIANS and JEWS are jumping up and down like demented orangutans claiming that Essenes belong to them. Dead Sea text or Qumran Scrolls have absolutely nothing ZILCH, to do with the Bible of the Torah - never mind the diabolical lies of the Christians and the Jews. For arguments sake -even if messiah Jesus Christ existed , the gospels were written a even a century after Jesus' estimated year of death, by individuals who never met Jesus, and then were edited or forged over the centuries by unknown scribes with their own agendas. Dead sea scrolls have been written by Essenes of the sect of Apollonius
I really like MacDonald. He's a really level headed guy and is one of the few people I've seen in this space who try to synthesize matters of theology, history, aesthetics and sociology. Really great example of how it takes a multi-discipline approach to truly appreciate and understand the subject.
I'm Irish Catholic, aged 70. I travel around the world whenever I can afford it. For the last 50 years I see myself as a Roaming Catholic Atheist. This has been an inspiring discussion for me. I'm grateful to have seen it. 🙏
I was in church three times per week from birth until I broke away from it at age 19. By age 12 I was questioning the truth of the bible. I have lived with the guilt of leaving behind the core values instilled in me. I was close to suicide because I didn't want to disappoint my parents. I moved 1200 miles so I didn't have to face that daily. It has made me very jaded toward humanity, but constantly working to get past the stress (at 70 yrs old). It has effected all my relationships and now just looking to have some peaceful years. Next step may be to spend some time in Colorado for microdosing. The hell fire and brimstone effected most of my siblings, also.
Sounds a lot like my life although it did take longer for me to conclude I no longer thought there was a god of any sort. I started drifting away in college in my 20s and left totally in my mid 30s. But I see a benefit in a slow deliberative unemotional exit. It never brought me to emotional distress. Sorry you had to go through that.
I am glad you came into reality, stop attending church, and woke up to go live your life. Being in church is absolutely boring then don’t get me started on the entire rituals they ass in like ‘revivals’ or ‘shut-ins’ or whatever they have. Church is boring and just people promoting cult status. There are more than 45,000 Christian denominations globally and more than 200 in the U.S. That alone tells us how much the world has been fooled, it always bothered me how people blindly follows this religion by default. The fire & brimstone stuff also the infamous ‘Doomsday” stuff to.
You can lessen the impact from your past religious wounds! It almost cost me my life, because when I had lost myself and work and my marriage…I expected a hand up from that ‘god, of everything’…and nothing…dead silence! It has been nothing but upward bound since that revelation! I still have difficult times…life is difficult, but I know where I am going and how to get there! It requires courage, attention and self-education! My best, just keep on keeping on…❤️🩹🍀🤗
What is so brilliant about this exchange, and brilliant it is, is how Dr. MacDonald gently explains that the fault is not in the authors of the gospels but in our own modern need for clear certainties. He explains that these books are wonderful, but in our times they are misused. That is quite inciteful and begins to explain why he calls himself a "Christian Atheist". Brilliant.
I’ve been a deconstructed christian for 40+yrs and have been content with my life. Never really heard these things, and have learned a lot here, and with the various RU-vid channels. I’ve never heard a deeper conversation regarding the mythology of the NT. This has been a great discussion. This has been greatly appreciated.
@@rahimi4762 "Most will not build a temple of immortality" . . . So is that like, "but one WILL build a temple of immortality that being the The Greatest Story Ever Told . . . as appearing in the same book that also claims donkeys talk? Please clarify.
@@sojrnrr8368 No donkey whisperer according to the Bible, to the contrary. As the story goes, Balaam is totally unimpressed with his donkey speaking in intelligible human language and gives the uppity beast plenty of 'what for' for daring to give his master such stubborn lip. Balaam even threatens the 'miraculous' donkey with death. But to his credit, the brave animal defends itself marking what may be the first instance in Western literature of ANYONE speaking up for animal rights. From Numbers: 22:29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. 22:30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.
I know. I read the Enuma Elish and the Sumerian texts and realized where the Bible came from. Also, my 11th grade honour teacher was constantly trying to clue me in as he was teaching the Epic of Gilgamesh. LOL the emperor has no clothes!
Yup the scripture is a script aka predictive programing to sell their agenduh aka narrative and desrruvitve the bankerstr mapheeuh have planned to destory our sacred beautiful world. And too many are caught on the the whole mynd con-troll thank goodness with the help of people on this video and so many more. 🎉
The first thing that comes to my mind is the fact that history is written and rewritten by the victors.This man is attributing the stories to the Greek and Roman mythologies. First off is that the Greek and Roman mythologies were written between the 8th an 7th centuries BC. There are similar mythologies from other parts of the world that predate these stories. Even in the same area were cuneiform writings dating back to to the 21st century BC with similar epics. The Greeks and Romans were relatively young civilizations compared to the others. Conquering nations and groups would destroy the writing of civilizations which they conquered and introduce their own language, histories and stories. There were similar stories written by the Sumerians, Babylonians, Persians, Egyptians, etc which the collective Hebrew nations were associated with, were conquered by or at the very least lived side by side with. Of course the Hebrews were aware of these other stories. They were led into captivity by the Babylonians and the Persians and the Egyptians where they of course studied side by side with these other cultures. If anything the Greeks and Romans got there mythologies from these older civilizations. We have the Greek and Roman writings because the Library of Alexandria was destroyed and the older texts were also destroyed. And guess who was there to rewrite the stories? Greeks and Romans, who were the dominating force at the time.
@@dakrontu That is true but the stories that were supposedly plagiarized were started in the same place where the Hebrew nation originated. Sumeria. Abraham was from Sumeria and his father made Statues of the "GODS". So yes he was well aware of all of the stories and who these "GODS" were. He realized that these WOODEN AND STONE statues that everyone was praying to could do nothing. If you want the rest of the story at least read GENESIS. Sumerian is the oldest "WRITTEN" language that we know of. Everything that we know of started in SUMERIA where Abraham lived. If anyone Plagiarized ANYTHING it was anyone other than a Sumerian.
Oh yes, as if Genesis has answers about the origins of the Universe. "in the beginning was God' Questions - when and where was that beginning?????? No answer there. Where was God at that time, where is it now, or at any time between? No good answer. Big Bang? Anything about that? Age of the universe, expansion of the universe, size of the universe?? No answers
@@ellenames5193 It makes as much sense as "There was nothing and then nothing exploded into everything". Plus the fact that you ended up with all this neat stuff like air and rain to feed plants which suddenly appear and animals and stuff too. That could happen without some kind of design right?
@@ellenames5193 I just can't believe the big bang. when I look at nature and all its complexities and simplicities and looking at magnificent creatures like Peacocks, or insects with lights like Fireflys...or even those metallic beetles, gold and silver chrome scarabs etc when I think about a Lyrebird who can mimic sounds like chainsaws, car ignition firing up etc - its just the big bang does not make any sense to me when I consider nature. I also can't accept that we are born for nothing. we have this whole life this whole entire earthly existence then we die and then there is nothing?? now that truly takes blind faith!
I spent much of the COVID lockdown learning Homeric Greek. I fairly quickly came to realize that early Christianity was influenced by Socratic philosophy. I didn't see the parallels between the Odyssey and Iliad though. Thanks for sharing.
what a great interview. Just bought two of MacDonalds books on Amazon.....and subscribed to your channel. Ex Fundamentalist Christian. Trying to put Jesus, and Christianity in its proper place. Your interview with MacDonald was fascinating and I can't wait to dive into his works. Maybe i'll fall in love with the story of Jesus again, and for that matter, the stories of the Greeks. This time, in a healthy and mature fashion.
I hate to tell you this, but the stories of the New Testament are not based on Greek Myth. Those writing were real and about Jesus. There are so many Greek Myths, you can base any story off of them if you had time to connect the dots
I’ve never studied this topic in depth, but I have noticed parallels in Greek mythology and the Bible. As well as other ancient texts. I think the Bible should be viewed as mythology, as the others are. You can get some wisdom from them, but basing your whole life on these mythical stories is a mistake. Which is why religion is bad, in my opinion.
Lisa, if you have any notes or resources you think could help me in my Big Project, documenting things like these, please feel free to share ... harmonicatheist@yahoo.com Thanks!
Great video! When discussing religion with others, I refer to my self as a recovering Catholic. My road to being an atheist took about 20 years, and that included an intensive study of scripture (read the Bible cover to cover twice), and did my own intensive comparative religious study. One thing that (no pun intended) puts the final nail in the wood for me that showed a major flaw with the Christian narrative was trying to reconcile the Adam and Eve story with Jesus. We know the Adam and Eve story to be false, and it’s well known today that many Christian’s (including Biblical historians/scholars/apologists) accept Evolution, and do not take the Adam and Eve creation story as literal. Well.., there lies a major problem. If we know that the Adam and Eve account is false.., then that means there was no fall of man, and no original sin, which means there was no need for Jesus as our savior. No fall, no original sin, no need for a savior.., yet clergy still teach the Adam and Eve account as truth because they need people to believe the false narrative for the Jesus story to work. It’s amazing listening to Christian’s stumble through trying to reconcile this when you point it out.
@@bellezavudd A lot of those fundamentalist also believe God put fossils in the ground to “test our faith”. Christianity is failing because of ultra conservative fundamentalists.., and not because of atheists…, whom they like to blame it on.
That your 7 year old son understands the Bible stories better than you did after graduating from Bible college made me smile. I gained so much insight from Dr. MacDonald...thank you for having him on and I look forward to future interviews.
I am fascinated by religion and belief. As a Buddhist, I believe that atheism is an extreme view. The Buddha never talked about God. Buddhism is a religion in a different sense because it fundamentally focuses on our experience, in the moment. Our reality only exists in our experience. To say that there is or is not a ""god", depends on how people interpret the idea of god or gods. Most Christians, don't understand for instance that Hindus believe in one god. All the "gods" are just the relatable aspects of the one. I've always felt that what Jesus actually taught, wasn't much different than what the Buddha taught. It was the way he was packaged so that what he actually did and said was less important than the death and resurrection. He was repurposed to be made palatable for the Romans. I often feel that atheists are busy trying to prove that they are right. I think it's important to keep our minds open and sit with the not knowing. That's where the wisdom is, in the not-knowing. The mystery of our being that gets lost when we believe. Even institutional Buddhism has its problems. I'm not saying that people should all convert to Buddhism so there's no need to be defensive here, I pretty much go along with Dennis here, except that I believe that the materialist view of most ethics, deeply undermines and can substantially trivialize the mystery and magic of our existence.
Dennis has a great perspective of everything really. Myth, Truth, Facts...all part of organizing a way to understand personal morality or life struggles... I love that he doesn't condemn anyone too include Christianity and has a very bright view on how to view Christianity without condemnation...and I'm not a Christian...and I greatly appreciate his take on this because that just helped me adjust my attitude. Kudos.
I agree they (Christianity) shouldn't be condemned. They should be exposed and held accountable. American organized religion seems to be teaching discrimination and hate, just to mention 2. Present times. American religion is more like organized crime. -Ex-Christian
My mom and grandmother did not attend church. But they taught us that God is love. And they hated racism of any kind. We grew up with The Golden Rule”…Do unto others. So glad not to have been brainwashed with stories of Satan and hell.
Im 42, my parents tried, we went to church every sunday as well as sunday school. There was always a voice in my head telling me these things dont make sense. By 14yrs old i told my mom she'd have to drag me kicking and screaming. Even as a child i could tell the story of noah didnt make sense.
Around 1:25 Dr MacDonald stresses genuine friendship as a precursor for meaningful dialogue with people. Having chatted with many fundamentalists from different religions (including Islam), I find that the vast majority don’t mind listening to your viewpoint if you have first asked questions and lovingly listened to them first. People can intuit your heart. If what you want is to crush them, they sense that. If they are your friend and you only desire meaningful dialogue, they usually can sense that also and things flow more smoothly Great interview Tim
I like the idea of the gospels being a collaborative and coordinated effort with input from many specialists. That is how the great gothic cathedrals were designed and constructed. And also exactly how Hollywood creates its blockbusters, to great effect.
Thank you Dr McDonald it makes total sense when you put it that way it does calm me down. It upsets me to no end that religion really is guiding our politics it's sad and it's sick
I’m about halfway through Dr. MacDonald’s course, it is excellent! This is the third channel I have seen Dr. MacDonald on and each time I learn something more. Thanks so much for providing a great scholar a platform.
I've thought endlessly about my faith. Logical thinking, critical thinking tells me it's all myth. Some people have decent lives with some ups and downs. Some of us have very sad lives that really feel hopeless and no matter what we do it's 24/7 nightmare. So we hold to hope in a life after this one. We like to believe Some sort of mercy will be given, maybe a better life in the next. Because without a next life,then our exsistence has been for nothing. Loss of a child,loveless relationship, financial uncertainty, poor education and job prospects. Life is not easy . So we cling to hope,we cling to a myth. It would have been more beneficial to be taught meditation, reflection, maybe coping classes vs religious studies. Because once you remove hope in a next life many will check out.
Maybe look into Neville Goddard’s psychological interpretations of Bible stories because his understanding puts the power in your hands to create a better life.
Hey, Georgia...I also get caught up in endless thinking about it all. One think that has really sunk in for me...it's not completely what is happening in the world or our lives, as much as what is happening between our ears. When our minds reward ourselves with peace...maybe that is the "peace that surpasses all understanding" but even in what most people would agree are hard times, I can feel that peace sometimes...it's a treasure. Then other times, even if things are going well by the worlds standard, I feel empty and unfulfilled...almost dead inside. I think people do whatever will bring that sense of peace...either thru religion, work, exercise, etc and my preferred way...helping others and looking to the goodness and light in others...there are healthy and unhealthy ways of finding it. Best wishes, Georgia. :)
Georgia, please dont forget that the purpose of mythology is to teach hidden truths that most ppl are not ready to face... life is eternal, but suffering is not...one of the primary reasons for this form of life, called a human being, is for the eternal form of ourselves to experience what emotions are...and for that we created the spectrum of energy that we call the electromagnetic spectrum, which allows our eternal form of consciousness to experience a temporal form of being in which emotions are possible... a range of emotions...a spectrum of emotions if u will...and then when this form of emotion filled consciousness runs out of electricity we simply return back to our eternal default state of being, which is photon based...love based, WITHOUT NEGATIVE POLARITY EMOTIONS PRESENT... sooo, just use this lifetime as if u enrolled into a school called "emf based emotions 101"...bc thats all that is happening here...no worries... ur friend, abracadabra
I read the entire 'good book' years ago and it reinforced to me that it was fake. It is a book that was written by people desperate to try to create a god to explain the world and why we are here. The book is just mythology with some twists.
When you realise all myths are the planets and constellations. Of course Jesus walks on water... every sunrise and sunset the Sun appears to walk on water...
14:01Tim : 'So how did you feel when you realized that the doctrine you had been embracing was derived from Greek mythology?' Dr MacDonald: ' I was enlivened.' Not the response one might expect from a professor of theology.🧐
Thank you so much for this interview. You-tube algorithms brought me here, first time I've heard of either of you, but my recent search history has lots of Bart Erhman and atheist channels. Some really useful insights, I love that you seem to have a battle against the damaging religious dogmas, whilst at the same pastoral care towards the victims and believers. I was raised a Catholic, but rejected the faith quite early in my life, and quite a long time ago now. Recently I've been developing an interest in the phenomenon of religion. I've been putting off re-reading the bible for some time now and I finally feel equipped to dive in, although I might have to revisit homer and check out some classical Greek poetry first. I'm about to go visit my partner, who is staying with a Christian community for three months, where I will very much feel like an outsider. This podcast couldn't have arrived at a better time for me. Thanks again.
It's always astonished me that America, which has an otherwise intelligent and questioning population, has so many people that unquestioningly believe whatever is written in a book written by unknown authors at an unknown time.
Great conversation! In my country it is now 3 a.m. in the morning, but I just had to watch the whole conversation before going to bed. I really like the positivity and the enthusiasm for the NT as literature! It's very refreshing to get these views without all the anger. Also, this has really made me want to look into Greek myths and literature.
Great insight to the New Testament. The borrowing of mythology follows the same pattern as the Torah/Old Testament. That is built on Canaanite mythology with heavy doses of Mesopotamian, Zoroastrian and Pre-Indo-European religious mythology. For example the "Moses myth" borrowing from the "Sargon the Great" myth. The Babylonian flood myths, etc. Interestingly Greek and Homeric mythology takes heavy borrowings from Hurrian, Hittite and Minoan myths via the Mycenaeans. I have two rules: - All Religions are evolutionary, not revolutionary. - Religion is "politics by other means". You should look at near east geo-political history. Geo-politics is the driving force behind religious evolution in the Torah and the New Testament. They are about power-politics and control. Each is a political manifesto at some level. They are about the linking authority to divinity. Especially when the Roman state church began to control the contents of the New Testament. The Torah ranges from reinforcing the authority of House of David to later reinforcing the authority of the Judean ruler and the priesthood. We would have no Judaism without the need of the House of David to retain political control. We would have no Christianity without events like the Maccabean revolt and Constantine's desire to rule the Roman empire. Religions formed in the frame work of "divine kingship". Power came from the divine. Each King was the Pontifex Maximus- the bridge between man and god. This idea goes back to birth of organised urban settlement, organised religion and the idea of Kingship in Mesopotamia. You should try and speak to Prof. Israel Finkelstein. His books "The Bible Unearthed" and "Israel: The Lost Northern Kingdom" are both worth a read.
Brilliantly said- exactly these works are not just a rehashing of old mythology- they are contextual to the garnering of power and control. Absolutely- this is also explored by Joseph Atwill in Caesar’s Messiah and Ralph Ellis in his work linking the Hyksos to Torah narratives. They are contextual to the politics of the time.
A very big thank you to Tim and Dr.Dennis for bringing enlightenment and removing the proverbial scales from my eyes.Muchos Gracias.Form what I have seen and heard at this podcast,it has spurred me on to study the gospel of Mark in parallel with Greek poetry and to use the similarities found there to live a more meaningful and fuller life.Richard D CRUZ,Malaysia.
Thank you two for your dedication. Im coming out of religion, while I'm holding Jesus hand. I still love Jesus so much in my heart. And I can see religion for what it is. No more religion for me ❤️, I choose love 😊
@@Peace2dagawdzthe best thing is that once you realise that the Jesus of the gospels wasn't even so loving or perfect, you know that it's you who were capable of imagining such love.
Mythology is a story of the planets and the sun. All myths worldwide were the same story with the same characters. No new characters were added, and no characters were removed. All characters retained their specific aspects. Mars Earth Venus and the Sun/Saturn.
I've let most of my family know recently that I no longer accept the bible as truth. I have always questioned how the dialog can be so detailed about events with no one writing these stories and people accept them as truth. I feel so much better finding and accepting the truth about the bible. Its a shame so many people feel that they have to believe this book because their lives depend on it.
@@alphaomega1351 Committing to reading and understanding the greatest selling and most attacked book in human history is for mature adults. Definitely stick with your beloved comics...your level. 🤗
The 4th century Christian Greeks just decided that all of their mythology was given to them as a foreshadowing of the Gospel so they would recognize it when it came. This is why they tended to transform pagan ideas to incorporate them into their Christianity. Campbell thought that we had a collective mythology independent on the historical or literary dependence of one version of the myth on the other. This is why I don't think demonstrating that the Gospel looks like older myths has any power to discredit the Gospel to people who think it is the "archetypal" version of a myth that the sub-typological versions pre-dated because they were part of a god created human subconscious. It SHOULD work better against fundamentalists who believe that paganism was void of godly inspiration and was basically the work of the devil, but not more historically traditional Christians who think that paganism was a shadow of understanding of Christianity given to Pagans as a prefiguring.
Paganism had power. However where is the trinity. And the power of Jesus and the holy spirit in Greek mythology. Are there any miracles in the current day to prayer to Greek gods? Miracles in the name of christ happen all the time. Sorry I'm not buying your Greek cosomology.
Perhaps one should not forget that the Council of Nicaea may have had a major editorial impact on the content of the synoptic gospels. Do not forget the agenda of Constantine to blend the religious beliefs within the Roman Empire in order to establish cohesion. Those who were involved in the Council likely harmonized stories from Homer with this religion, because, as you’ve said, people in that day breathed the structure of Homer thought and Greek tradition. Again, the goal was to encourage popular adoption of this religion called Christianity - essentially, a new “one world religion”. Imagine the debates about how to accomplish this goal at the Council. So, who was the better hero - Homer, or Jesus? Maybe it’s a teacher’s aid - “You know the Iliad stories? Well, Jesus did it ‘for real’!” Hmmm. What was the real historical Jesus like? Why blend in the Jesus figure at all if there wasn’t something there of worth? I totally get how Mr. MacDonald can value the social gospel aspects of Christianity without accepting what could be an embellished historical Jesus. I particularly appreciate his rejection of the theology which portends that humanity is inherently sinful and needed a savior to be the penal substitution via a blood sacrifice before a vengeful God - yes, that is a terrible and psychologically damaging motif to teach children. How and when that theology ever got woven into the Christian narrative is a puzzle to me. Is it because covenant theology thought it important that agreements and contracts be signed in blood? Is it because of the Judaic tradition of blood sacrifices at the temple and blood on the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant? - Jesus becomes the final blood sacrifice? Yes, there is layer upon layer of edits and embellishments in Christianity that probably were put in place for manipulation and control of believers. Battles to reframe the reformer Jesus back into Judaism, or Greek mindset. Distortions of what was early Christianity in its simplest form. Of certainty, Jesus would have been a social reformer - murdered because the Romans and the Jewish authorities feared he would incite an insurrection.
I was astonished to learn that Dr. MacDonald had established the same connection of the gospels to Greek Wisdom as I had. My research and translations of ancient Greek documents have been self-published in three books; A Code Within A Codex ; A Philosophy of Spirituality ; and Plato’s Couch . As the title of the third book suggests, Plato’s dialogues are concerned with his theory and analysis of our psyche , and the teaching of self-analysis as a means to Know Thyself.
One consideration as a literature major: though truth as a kind of correspondence to reality in an empirical sense, but can we consider an aspect of emotional veracity. That truth is an experience or identification with the characters and how we respond to them. I am not an Irish pagan, and yet aspects of the Celtic tales, Cuchulain or the British Arthurian cycles bring me to weep over the tragic. That emotional context does have it's kind of truth if you will. Thank you.
Harmonic Atheist and Dr MacDonald, This was a fascinating interview for me. I do hope Dr MacDonald publishes his translation of the gospels (with notes would be great). We can always use a better translation, and one which shows the inherent morality of the original writers. Again thanks to both of you for this, Jim, Oaxaca
At Catholic School, by 4th grade I understood that they had no good answer about the authors of the gospels, and how we know it wasn't just some guy's claim- and that never changed. While I am glad to have had that foundational understanding of Christian theology and catechism, I am now mildly amused by the hundreds of "the only correct path and the rest of you will be deservedly tortured for eternity for not falling in line with us. We want to love you but need you to join us first" religions out there. I find it comical that the more immoral and criminal they are in general, the more likely to be "religious" I find the best Christians (or Muslims for that matter) are the ones that 'go to church' for its community & social value, and don't take a word of it literally. I just wish they'd be honest about it instead of propagating untruths and harm. I actually prefer to use Hamlet to illustrate all the things the church uses the Bible for. it illustrates nicely the pitfalls of murder, incest, violence, dishonesty, lust, jealousy, mistrust, betrayal, religion, pride, greed, ego, as well as the dangers of friendship, loyalty, beauty, love, family, responsibility, duty, honor, strength, honesty, perseverance...and the value of truth, knowledge, ethics and action.
Wow, Tim! This podcast was fantastic on so many levels; I appreciated your inquiry of Dr. MacDonald's fundamentalist background, his departure from his faith, and the comparative analysis of Greek epics and philosophy to New Testament gospels. So much to take in! Thank you to both of you for such an insightful podcast. I'll need to watch/listen to this again, but I'll take notes next time.
The title "When you realize the Gospels are mythology based on Greek epics" could almost be a meme with a surprised cat >^O O^< picture! Seriously though, the implications for humanity are so immense it should be a nightly news topic, 60 Minutes style. Thank you for bringing us Dr. MacDonald. In the OT, the Flood story is most definitely Sumerian mythology without a doubt in my mind.
Fascinating subject, after being brought up in a high control cult (Jehovah's Witnesses) I've been out 25 years, and this subject is really amazing seeing the parallels between Greek poetry and stories in the New Testament.
I'm about half way through this interesting interview. It's my first introduction to Dennis McDonnald. I have always been a questioner and through a lifetime of study and experience I appreciate the beauty of McDonalds approach. Now I must return to listening...🎉
I would challenge the notion that the gospels represent some kind of good morality. In the book of Mark Jesus condemns every single citizen of his hometown to eternal damnation, merely because they didn't instantly accept his " good news ".
We owe much to Emperor Constantine for the orthodoxy of Christianity with its cocktail of mythology, religious and spiritual aphorisms, teachings and concepts. His political need for a universal religion gutted the original spiritual teachings of Jesus and incorporated elements of pagan religions and mythological concepts. Saul never knew Jesus and yet at least a quarter of the New Testament is attributed to him as its author, Paul. Whereas Peter, as Jesus' real successor, was effectively superseded. Consequently, the oral tradition was sidelined or deemed heretical by secularized, politically motivated church leaders. Ironically, Jesus was opposed to practically all that religion stands for and he recognized the priesthood for what they really are. He never recorded his teachings and those teachings ascribed to him were written decades after his departure without his authorization.
Great work! Looking forward to reading your work! I too am a "Done". I went through tremendous anger at finding my framework was incorrect. My coping mechanism is verify the Archaeologiy of Bible, Majabarata, etc AND include psychology and science of NDEs, OBEs, remote viewing, etc. I have a goal of reporting results by 2055. I am now desperately curious for the answers. Your work will be a big help to me. Trying to learn upto 15 languages, know so much of science and beyond its current fundamentalist mindset, I feel lucky to live my life. My purpose is to inspire everyone along the way. We have ALL been lied to but there exists a reality that loves the word AND. I appreciate opportunities to influence children to love learning and be their best selves. I can be wrong and I want to be correct more than being smugly sure I have all the answers Substitute teachers are lucky to be right! I help kids think for themselves, question everything, forgive everyone. We all see thru very limited "dark glasses". Your work is a delightful part of my journey.
I agree with Dr. MacDonald that Bible is a collection of literary masterpieces. It's just a shame that they have been so misunderstood by the literalists.
A bigger shame this collection of immorality has been used to justify child abuse and murder, slavery and incest and war. But an apologist will lower themselves to the level of a rapist, or a terrorist to make their weak excuses for what “the word of gawd” really means.
I have lived a very busy interesting 73 years and I am still on the path of trying to figure things out. Some one keeps dropping bread crumbs for me to follow and this video was one of those crumbs. What this video did for me is solidify my belief that the Bible was written by men for the reason of controlling the masses. So it had a purpose. These men who got together in a back room as some men do, and assembled all this and produced this book. I have to say they were very wickedly smart as we in the so called western world have used this book as a foundation by our parents to install in us and we all have been programmed in a sense using this as a basic operating system. It's no wonder the world is trying to reset itself. I still believe in God and Mother Nature as he and she is the one that has held my hand and showed me all of this and told me to keep going there is more. We are all sons and daughters of God and Mother Nature so we are all as smart as Jesus, as he did tell us that, I believe. Even though what I heard here tonight is might be true, I it does not diminish my feelings about Jesus and God or the 10 commandments. I believe those to be true some how. So I will still say I am a Christian because If Jesus does show up I would hang out with him and be his friend. I think he has the right idea. We just need a new Bible I believe. Well there you have it. That's what I think. Thank You for your video it was very enlightening, reaffirming, etc. etc.
What ever you do as an atheist, don't let the so called fundamentalism of the religious to cause you to stop believing in LOVE tempered by wisdom. It's all meant to be about Charity, Mercy, and Gentle Loving Kindness.
Much of the early testament is said to be taken from Egyptian mythology. Where the Egyptians got them is probably from Sumeria who probably got them from the prior civilization that was destroyed during the great flood cataclysm that Graham Hancock has posited about.
Thank you Dennis for articulating what is very similar to my own journey out of Churchianity, which although went on a different path, has arrived at much the same place. I'd started by unraveling the mystery of authentein in its entirely appropriate application to the divisions into classes of people by the "so-called gnosis." This led me to tracing the origins and development of these beliefs from mirror eisegesis of Paul's genuine letters and the later pseudepigrapha as well as many other sources. Becoming convinced that this was a religion based on Dionysos-Osiris, it became evident that the gospels, especially John's was crafted to present a superior Christ to the Bacchic-like one of their rivals. I believe the extensive use of Euripides'' the Bacchae, was more than just a random literary choice of subject, since there were rivals also using it! I have no problem that by believing much of what we think/believe about Jesus is myth that it thus discredits as "fact" the elaborations of the gospel writers. They were framing their own myths for their particular (and different) audiences about Jesus. Nevertheless, the essential social message of the Kingdom of God - of Love in action - in its elevation of the oppressed and leveling of value and status for all people, remains the key Truth throughout. At the time of the writing of the 4 gospels, this rival "gospel" which Paul had encountered and refuted in his letters to the communities of followers of Rabbi Jesus' teachings, was framing an opposite truth - that love was irrelevant. Their gospel was about a different "saviour" - a spiritual "Jesus" without human flesh, based on the god Dionysos, son of Zeus, but born of a human mother, who was killed and rose again fully divine. But their "saviour" (Dionysos Eleutheros) liberated them from all moral constraint and the mores of decent society and was worshipped through sacred sex - so familiar and acceptable in the worship in many of the Greek Mystery religions of that time. To present a better gospel that was also acceptable to nomian Jews, the writing about the message of love by Rabbi Jesus had to portray superiority in every way! So he also had to have had a divine birth, but also a resurrection that had flesh (whereas Paul's vision of Jesus was of a glorious substance which clothed him). The rivals' gospel was the broad way that led to destruction and their preachers were "workers of iniquity"!
In the entire first Christian century Jesus is not mentioned by a single Greek or Roman historian, religion scholar, politician, philosopher or poet. His name never occurs in a single inscription, and it is never found in a single piece of private correspondence. Zero! Zip references. Till 325 AD, not a single historian or writer wrote about Jesus Christ or any of his disciples . BEFORE THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA IN 325 AD, NOBODY ON THIS PLANET EVER HEARD OF THE NAMES JESUS CHRIST OR CHRISTIANITY. JESUS/ BIBLE / CHRISTIANTY WAS COOKED UP IN 325 AD, BY JEWESS HELENA , WHO SAT ON THE POPE'S CHAIR.. "Vatican is Evil terrorist satanic organisation." If Satan does exist, then he thrives inside the Roman Catholic Church. The dead sea scrolls covering the period from Birth of Jesus to 68 AD , does NOT say one word about Jesus or his 12 Apostles. Hellenistic philosopher Philo Judaeus of Alexandria (20 BCE-50 AD/CE)-alive at the purported time of Jesus, and one of the wealthiest and best connected citizens of the Empire- makes no mention of Christ, Christians or Christianity in his voluminous writings. Nor do any of the hundreds of other historians and writers who flourished during the first THREE centuries of the common era. The DEAD SEA SCROLLS were all written by Pagan Essenes . None of them have been edited by later Christians, as is the case with some other Jewish literature. All the scrolls (except a treasure map known as the Copper Scroll) can be dated prior to A.D. 68 or 69, when the Qumran settlement was believed to have been destroyed by the Romans in the Jewish revolt. The oldest of the scrolls probably goes back to the middle of the third century B.C. The people of Qumran belonged to a Pagan religious group known as the Essenes. Pliny the Elder, who died during the volcanic destruction of Pompeii in the year 79 A.D., described a community of pagan Essenes living on the western shore of the Dead Sea, close to where Khirbet Qumran is situated. John the Baptist was an ascetic Essene . He was a vegan and was uncircumcised . Various literary sources like Josephus and Philo tell clearly that Essenes were ascetics. We also know, from literary testimony, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the archaeological remains of Qumran, that the Essenes practiced many water baptisms for ritual purification-similar to a dip in the Ganges or the river Pampa or at Thiirunelli. At Qumran, however, all members of the community were baptized with water for ritual purification. Josephus writes, "And as for their piety towards God, it is very extraordinary; for before sunrising they speak not a word about profane matters, but put up certain prayers which they have received from their forefathers, as if they made a supplication for its rising" (Wars, 2.8.5). This testimony accords well with what we know from the Dead Sea Scrolls. Prayer and humility was one thing that the Essenes . When they cooked up stories about Jesus they wrote that Jesus Christ ate the Last Supper in the Essene part of town. Jesus is not historical character, The Dead Sea Scrolls have produced increasing evidence to cement the fact that Jesus Christ never existed and the whole story was cooked up at the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD. The FAKE gospels were written after 325 AD after Jesus was cooked up at the first Council of Nicea.. Twelve apostles of Jesus never existed. Jesus Christ names 12 apostles to spread his gospel, and the early Christian church owes its rapid rise to their missionary zeal. Yet, for most of the Twelve, there's scant evidence of their existence outside of the New Testament. The concept of using statistics to prove that 'God authored the Bible' is bullshit. Why was the library of Alexandria burnt ? The gospel of Thomas was not written by Jesus' disciple Thomas. Englishman Godfrey Higgins studied Greek, Latin and law at Cambridge . His two-volume, 867-page book Anacalypsis: An Enquiry into the Origins of Languages, Nations, and Religions, was published posthumously in 1836. In his treatise, Higgins writes " the mythos of the Jews and the mythos of the Greeks are all at bottom the same lifted from the ancient mythos of Hindus ; and ... are contrivances under the appearance of histories to perpetuate doctrines," and that Christian editors “either from roguery or folly, corrupted them all.” 1900, Scottish MP John Mackinnon Robertson wrote that Jesus never existed but was an FAKE invention by a first-century messianic cult. He wrote about the First Council of Nicea of 325 AD where powerful forces invented a new god to fit the needs of the society of the time .Robertson specifically mentions the Talmudic story of the Yeshu . Thomas says: "Simon Peter said to them, ‘Make Mary leave us, for females don’t deserve life.’ Jesus said, ‘Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven’" (Thomas 114). AIYOOOOO -even Christians don’t like this When the master of James baby Jesus Christ never existed -- how can his disciple St James exist ? Even since the dead sea scrolls have been discovered CHRISTIANS and JEWS are jumping up and down like demented orangutans claiming that Essenes belong to them. Dead Sea text or Qumran Scrolls have absolutely nothing ZILCH, to do with the Bible of the Torah - never mind the diabolical lies of the Christians and the Jews. For arguments sake -even if messiah Jesus Christ existed , the gospels were written a even a century after Jesus' estimated year of death, by individuals who never met Jesus, and then were edited or forged over the centuries by unknown scribes with their own agendas. Dead sea scrolls have been written by Essenes of the sect of Apollonius
If I wasn't as knowledgeable as I am about the Bible, rhetoric and classical Greek literature and the research about who wrote the Bible, I would have been lost about whether what this professor has discovered is true. He is absolutely correct in his conclusions. The only problem is that some of his personal opinions are weird.
I’ve deconstructed from Mormonism and then Christianity. After I left Mormonism, I went looking for the historical Jesus. I took an Early History of Christianity class from Yale University. One semester class took me two years because I read the authors of every footnote in the syllabus. I realized Christianity was man-made. I went looking for the truth and found it at 60. I consider myself an atheist and I’ve never been happier! Thank you for this discussion. I’m learning so much!
At the end of this talk I identify with what you said about family.. my dad uses religion to hate on me for being gay, calls Biden Satan, calls my mom, sister and I stupid socialists for being more left sided in our thought process… I wish my dad was a loving father
Ignore labels that others put on you. Forgive them for their ignorance. Be clear that path of love has rewards for you. I have never regretted actions taken from a place of love, but I have regretted actions taken from pettiness, spite, revenge, jealousy or hate. Stay on the path of love. Help and lift others.
Jews being persecuted by the Roman Empire believed a Jewish warrior messiah would come and they would defeat Rome. To weaken Jewish resistance, Rome invented a Jewish messiah who preached peace, "turn the other cheek", "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's", etc. It failed to convince the majority of Jews but succeeded in sprouting a new pro-Roman Empire religion which gradually grew in numbers and strength. Two centuries later, as the Roman Empire began to crumble, in a desperate effort to reverse its decline, Rome adopted this new Christian religion as the official religion of the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire became the Holy Roman Empire. Popes appointed kings, funded armies etc. Church/state mutual backscratching. Religious institutions are firmly embedded with the ruling elites in every religious country. Tragic for truth, facts, justice etc. Tragic for humanity. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zmEScIUcvz0.html
"Jesus" praises Cornelius, a Roman Centurion slaver, for having the most faith. So it seems that the Roman Empire was also trying to stop slave revolts.
I gave up on this video when the guest's response to finding it's essentially reworked pagan myth was to be "enlivened" (or whatever). Scrolling the comments I saw yours and almost didn't click to your linked resource as I'm generally wary of doing so. Wow! Am I glad I did. I just watched the entire thing and came back here to dig out your comment specifically to thank you for the post. I've spent a decade rummaging through the literature as my own faith dissipated and, as an arm-chair historian and lover of the ancients, had some sense that the Gospels were just too convenient and familiar-sounding, and then you point me at the Flavian-Josephus propaganda thesis: it literally blew my mind as it is so coherent and solid. I can't believe I wasn't aware of this already as I've followed Bart Ehrman for years. THANK YOU for taking the time to comment and for the link which made it easy to jump to. You've probably watched Professor Tom Holland's equivalent 'take-down' of Islam's origin story but just in case you've not, it's here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-K2JdTrZO1To.html It's remarkable scholarship (and brave!) and beautifully filmed as well.
Another magnificent interview. This one reminded me so much of your interview with Dr John Lundwall:- "John Lundwall: How to tackle life's deep questions, in light of mythology" You appear to find it very hard to come up with a bad interview. Still, some of the interviews are real gems and this was one. Lundwall's was another.
Thank you, thank you, thank you Tim!!! Dr. MacDonald's work is a gift to humanity and this presentation by you both is too. Could you, Tim, or someone in the comments provide what books Dr MacDonald read to his child for 5 days that was so enlightening ? Much appreciation in advance for the answer.
Stoicism, as described by Spinoza and Aurelius is the best and most rational way to establish your moral compass. Modern stoicism also has some useful things to say but don't get too swept up by it.
I had never heard of this before! Amazing! If Macdonald has set out to show the Bible as literary beauty I think he’s done very well if his analysis is correct. Love this!
PCC grad here from whenever they were in the throes of battling Hyles and Bob Jones on the KJV issue... Fantastic interview and great information! Looking forward to reading the volumes Dr. MacDonald is publishing.
I'm convinced people are believers because they choose to be - regardless of the facts. Until they have their aha moment nothing will change their mind.
After my Near Death Experience, I totally dropped any concerns for or about organized religions of any kind. That experience brought home the fact that religions are completely man made.
You always hear about the structural racism that is a major part of the history of Bob Jones University. For a fact, reggae legend Bob Marley had initially wanted to become a pastor, so he applied to Bob Jones University. His application was answered by a terse rejection letter stating, " We do not admit students of color". He went on to establish the Rastafarian religion in Jamaica, and the Caribbean, and used his craft, music and song writing to raise consciousness, racial pride and speak to moral and social issues.
It seems to me that the Greek Epics are based on even earlier epics like the Egyptian Myths, in turn based on even earlier epics like Mithra and Gilgamesh!
The esoteric symbolism could be present in the gospels as entertaining tropes. It makes them not only historical fiction, but supernatural fantasy, like the other myths.
Tim, have you studied on Yahweh? In the understanding that he is a regional god. Not all that believe in Jesus believe that Yahweh is Jesus Father. Also, I really appreciated this interview with Dr. Macdonald. He brings some very thought provoking and belief searching concepts.
A very thought provoking interview. Dr. MacDonald has a nuanced outlook, regarding social constructs and morality. This particular interview speaks to my Unitarian Universalist heart. Much about Universalism has been oversimplified and misunderstood. And, when he spoke about the Methodist church trying to gather people together to do good works, but not to worry about god, it tickled me. I think they're learning that a CONGREGATION is more acceptable; more important and fulfilling than a CHURCH. This man has raised a thought that I will be sitting with for awhile now: Something doesn't have to be factual to have truth. Have you studied the works of Joseph Campbell? I saw his interviews with Bill Moyers, in the 90's on PBS and that man rocked my world.
