Which is Correct? - or - ? 

Hi. Did you know that I am a semi (hyphen) secret livestreamer? I've been signing on stream, playing FIFA, and engaging in other shenanigans (em dash) all to raise money for AFC Wimbledon's playing budget. The hope is that we'll be able to buy a new player in January just with livestreaming money. It's a good vibe! youtube.com/@johnschannel1007. See you there later today! (hyphen)John

Please God let this be the first in a series on complex grammar rules in which we delve deeper and deeper into the weeds of usage

This channel could turn into Grammar with John-I for one would be here for it.

As an editor from Germany, this is really interesting. Generally, we don't use m dashes in German (😮I know!) so I learned something today.

3:51 Technically the last sentence should be "Hank, I will see you on Friday-is a sentence to which even I can't add an em dash."

Oh my god as a copyeditor this video delights me so much. I am sending this to all my friends, who will probably laugh, but I dont care.

I remember in elementary school realizing that parenthesis fit the sound of certain ways i think (thus starting my lifelong parentheses bias)

I love en-dashes over parentheses because they feel like an interruption of a thought as opposed to the aside of a set of parentheses

I found this genuinely useful. I never knew about that secondary use of en dashes! I'll make sure to use that from now on!

Ahhh, such a hopeful comment "you immediately realize (around the 3:33 mark) it's New York n-dash style pizza..." while (only speaking for myself) I had NO idea there were three such dashes - the hyphen, the n-dash and the m-dash. I'm bedazzled and totally out of my depth... sigh.

I have just learned that I’ve been using em dashes incorrectly this whole time-crawling under a rock now.

Finally understands the intricacies of dashes... *looks at keyboard* hyphen it is!

the intersection between typography/typesetting and literature! the expressive power of punctuation marks not typically associated with such! aaAAAAAAAAA

People tend to mistake my caesuras for commas because it's the same symbol but the caesura, a command to take a breath or pause for a beat is its own thing and (in my mind at least) feels like the opposite of the en dash which instructs the reader to continue, speaking smoothly which is why i also love an en dash. I can never find it tho! Just use a hyphen and commit to correcting it during the final edit.

Until those lovely marks appear on the common computer keyboard, they'll never get quite the love they deserve. Hyphens still have what youngs would derisively call "keyboard privilege."

I think I'm a little bit more confused than I came in, but I do know I adore a good em dash.

Punctuation also highlights generational divides. If I text my 21 or 24-year-old daughters and use periods after sentences, they interpret that as rude, or at least brusque. (I'm assigning "brusque" to the word salad they used to try to explain, "Well not really _rude_ exactly ...") All the different ways I have of indicating tone in print - dashes, commas, italics, ellipses ... oh how I love me some ellipses - now I question them all. Does my tone only come through to other ancients like me?

Today I learned that a hyphen is not a dash. And I can only write this one - on my cellphone, which I guess it's a dash

I see it everywhere I look now - thanks John 🫠

1:10 Parentheses makes the information look like additional context worth noting-the em dash makes it clear that the information is so vitally important that you had to interrupt yourself to say it.

“Language doesn’t exist to oppress us - it exists to promote the clarity of expression.” Loved this, thanks John

My favorite use of the en-dash is in the name of one of the Millennium Prize problems in math: the Birch-Swinnerton-Dyer conjecture (named after two individuals, not three: Birch and Swinnerton-Dyer)

Life lesson: Everything has multitudes, even dashes.

It is worth noting that in British English, publishers typically used spaced en-dashes to accomplish all that an em-dash is used for in American English. For example: "The man - having removed his shoes - entered the house", would be used in a British-published book, whereas "The man-having removed his shoes-entered the house" would be used in an American-published book. I myself favour the British English use of en-dashes, but use em-dashes to express interrupted sentences, be they narrative or dialogue.

JRR Tolkien, author of The Lord of the Rings, had many disputes with his publisher about his use of hyphens in compound words. Written English from the previous centuries used more hyphenated compound words than is common today, such as "wood-fire" or "key-hole", but Tolkien was much more prolific with his hyphenization than even was common at the time. He wrote words such as under-hill, mountain-side, rock-shadows, goblin-cities, hobbit-girls, riddle-game, dragon-gold, elf-friend, forest-gloom, lake-man, wolf-ally, and raven-messenger. The essay _Hyphens as Sub-Lexical Morphemes in The Hobbit,_ by the illustrious Sparrow Alden, includes a graph charting the use of hyphens throughout the book. The essay theorizes that many of the unusual or seemingly-out-of-place hyphenated words in Tolkien's writing represent things or concepts that would have had a dedicated single-word name in one of Tolkien's invented languages, but for which no such word exists in English - thus the hyphenization. Two examples are the names of the swords "Glamdring" and "Orcrist" - both one-word names - which Elrond translates as "Foe-Hammer" and "Goblin-Cleaver" respectively.

“Language doesn’t exist to oppress us-it exists to promote clarity of expression” is a beautiful quote that I love

My favorite dash is the tragically beautiful en dash placed between the birth and death dates on headstones and in obituaries. One bit of punctuation that represents an entire human existence. They can tell some of the very saddest stories or some of the most triumphant depending on the context and amount of time between the first and second date.

Em Dashes are literally my favorite punctuation mark ever. I have the copy editor's symbol for inserting an em dash tattooed on me. This video is a salve for the atrocious day at work I had. Thank you!

John pulling out the questions I’ve had in the deep recesses of my brain for years.

3:55 This is where author John shines through.

Where was this discussion in my english classes???? Seriously how am I only learning about this now!?! 🤷‍♀️ I needed to know this 25 years ago! 🤦‍♀️

I absolutely LOVE hearing John geek out about writing. Partially because I'm a grammar nerd too, but also because he so rarely talks about being a writer and it is a huge part of who he is. This warmed my heart.

Thing about em-dashes is that the parts feel connected and equal. With a colon, there's a sense of superiority in the first clause. With parentheses, there's a sense of unimportance in the parenthetical. Em-dashes say, "this is off the beaten path, but still as important as everything else." Honourable mention to the footnote, though, just for the ability to subvert expectations in reading structure while also inducing flashbacks to college years.

02:24... Well said

As a designer, the trick I use when I need to remember whether to use an En or Em dash is I look it up every single time and then promptly forget for the next time.

3:18 ...Endashes and hyphens are different? I've a lot of rethinking to do. I was always insistent that it should be New-York-style pizza, rules be damned.

I used to use dashes all the time, but I had an English teacher in high school who told me they were “unprofessional”. I have avoided using them ever since. I now feel fully vindicated and will go back to using them freely. Thank you John.

1:18 parenthesis feel more optional than dashes for some reason

Bringing me back to my early days of typography RU-vid. If anyone wants to learn more about punctuation, I recommend the book Shady Characters by Keith Houston.

3:41 Not grammar. Orthography. "Grammar Nazis" who can't tell the difference always stand out to me.

The em dash is longer than the en dash, but longest of all is the semicolon - often called the "small intestine" - which when removed from the abdominal cavity can be unfurled up to a length of 18 feet.

An em dash is an overindulgent comma- you save it up for when you feel like treating yourself to something special

As a writer who is also obsessed with em- and en-dashes to the point where I’ve been lovingly made fun of about it by colleagues, editors, and readers, I have never felt more in community with you as I do in this moment. Thank you for having the bravery to take such a stand. It makes me feel one way and one way only- proud to be a nerdfighter.

"Do I love it that we're getting into the weeds here?" Glory! As for em-dashes setting off an aside or explanation, I think they stand out more, make it more obvious that the text between dashes is not truly part of the sentence but provides critical clarifying or explanatory text. I'm with you all the way!

John, I'm a technical writer and editor who has this type of discussion every day as part of my work. I will tell you, for what it's worth from another corner of the writing world, that I and most of my colleagues share your love of em dashes. As a reader, I find compelling use of punctuation one of the most satisfying elements of a writer's style.

I am a hobbiest bookinder, typesetter, and writer, and you have just explained en dashes in a way that finally gets me to remember what they're used for beyond "something to do with years?" I loved this in the weeds discussion, its a very happy place to be.

I have been watching your videos for over a decade, never commented... but this video is perfect.

As a high school English teacher, I cannot tell you how excited I am to show this video when my students get to em-dashes. 😍

2:04 he's a hater but that's bars

"Language doesn't exist to oppress us, it exist to promote the clarity of expression"

“Language doesn’t exist to oppress us,” is the most freeing thing I’ve herd today.

How am I, a 40+ year-old recreational writer, just hearing about Em and En dashes? How? I WENT TO CATHOLIC SCHOOL! I've used dashes for decades and had no idea until this video that there were different kinds, with different purposes. I am shooketh.

Certain that we can all agree the person who named them "Em" and "En" dashes deserves a special slot in hell next to the person who named "Lisp" and "Dyslexia"

As the reader, I like the use of em dashes because, visually, it makes it seem more conversational, showing pauses in our natural speech patterns just a bit better than using parentheses.

3:28 “immediately” might be a bit strong here 😂

As a print editor who spends an inordinate amount of time in the weeds of grammar, I love this so much! It's hard to make something so nuanced and dry entertaining, but this was delightful!

Oh my gosh, I was literally *just* editing my friend's writing when I got the notification for this. They keep using hyphens instead of em dashes and it has been driving me up the WALL

I myself have a fondness for semicolons; I use them whenever I can.

En dashes are also used instead of em dashes in the same sorts of parenthetical contexts, but where an em dash goes directly between the words on either side, an en dash is set off from each by spaces, which allows automatic type-flowing algorithms to handle them better at line breaks!

I will be citing this in an email to be sent to all co-workers who called me mad.

Also when you have two different surnames, like the Kennedy-Nixon debate.

I was never aware of this issue, never cared, and still don't, but passionate people being passionate is a great thing.

"God I love it so much when we are in the weeds of grammar" 😂😂 Love the enthusiasm John!

By the way, every time you refer to em dashes - that’s at 0:27, 0:44, 0:57, and 3:58 - you actually used an en dash or a hyphen instead - except in the comparison at 0:35. Also note the three of them - em dash, en dash, and hyphen - on the same slide at 1:50.

I actually knew everything in this video except for the en dash being used for compound hyphenates like New York-style pizza, which is actually something I’ve been struggling with in my recent day-to-day textual communication.

“On Dasher, on-“ well, you get the idea. I love to get my dash on!! 😁 Now I must dash- no apologies!!

...what was it though?

There’s a better flow visually with a dash than parentheses as well. -relevant tidbit vs (Context) Watching this I can’t help but think back to being an undiagnosed ADHD kid who used a lot of parentheses (dare I say to a diagnosable degree) to express my continuously compounding thoughts. The notes I got from teachers were about doing it less -when I could’ve used a lesson on doing it gooder.

Most people don’t even hyphenate their compound modifiers. Now I’m excited about em and en dashing

"the weeds of grammar" is where proofreaders live and work and protect---yes, protect!---your writing. Please support the continued existence of proofreaders at a living wage. Do not accept their elimination from the publishing process, either by omission or replacement by AI. Neither of these things actually makes anyone's writing better. Proofers are typically neurodivergent introvert women, also. We deserve jobs too. ;---; (You didn't mention all the ways Em dashes are useful in emojis! Also, they're called Em and En dashes because they're the length of a letter M and N, respectively, if anyone cares?)

A video about my favorite punctuation - I've never clicked faster

IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS, shoot: Because anyone who has opinions on this topic wants you to ask them questions. Just today I was writing a blog post about which legal filings use which, I'm that kind of nerd. (A degree in Latin too.). So shoot.

welcome back em dash video ❤

Man, Hamilton would've hit way different if Angelica said- "In a letter I received from you two weeks ago I noticed an em dash in the middle of a phrase It changed the meaning, did you intend this? One stroke and you've consumed my waking days It says "My dearest-Angelica" With an em dash after dearest You've written "My dearest-Angelica""

Thank you for this John I’ve been writing a personal essay hoping to submit to a journal and just yesterday a blanket of dread descended upon me as I considered that maybe I’ve been using far too many em dashes-you’ve genuinely assuaged my anxieties on the matter.

HERE'S A FUN ONE: One of the style guides, and forgive me for writing without looking up which one, just added that while hyphenated names are hyphenated, i.e. Lin-Manuel Miranda or Catherine Zeta-Jones, as John was saying in the video, hyphens are often too magnetic, and so for names that you specifically don't want to merge, like a team of scientists, e.g. with the Higgs-Boson Particle, you'd use an en-dash, because you don't want to minimize either person or confuse anyone that they might be the same person. Fun stuff (if it's fun stuff.)

You know those moments that you get enlightened to something you didn't know that you didn't know? I just had one of those.

Yoooo, this video was made for me!! Em dash, en dash, subtraction operation symbol, numerical range symbol, negative value symbol, hyphen. 😎

Organic chemists really love the n-dash (sic). We use it when talking about chemical bonds (e.g. carbon-fluorine bond or C-F), and I just started using it nearly everywhere because I find it vastly superior (aesthetically) to a hyphen.

I LOVE em dashes. I have shortcuts on my desktop to type special characters quickly and my most used one by far is the em dash. It's so engrained in my muscle memory I'll find myself typing the shortcut on other computers before realizing it won't work. One aspect you didn't touch on but always comes to mind when I see them in the wild is whether or not spaces were put around them - I've always found it interesting that there's no consensus. I prefer spaces. Also, a letter to Microsoft: In Word, if you type one or two hyphens with spaces and continue typing on that line, it is autocorrected into an *en dash*. Two hyphens without spaces? Em dash. Two hyphens with spaces? En dash. Why, Microsoft? Does an em dash with spaces look too long to you? Are you afraid to commit to the full glory of the spaced em dash?

Note that in the UK, the n-dash is preferred in all situations. While you don't add spaces around m-dashes, you'd do so with n-dashes. The Oxford Style Guide says, "m-dash: Do not use; use an n-dash instead" and "n-dash: Use in a pair in place of round brackets or commas, surrounded by spaces". The n-dash is also used for the purposes you highlighted. And yes, the calls them m- and n-dash, not em/en.

As someone who typically only uses hyphens, I feel more educated - my laziness will probably override the newfound knowledge, though.

I thought I was losing my mind because I didn't initially click on the notification and it DISAPPEARED. And I love Em Dashes 😭 💕 I'm glad the video still exists, even if you did need to edit

I’m sad to see you left out that an en dash can be used equivalently to an em dash or parenthetical - it just needs a space around it to avoid confusion with hyphens, whereas an em dash takes none. And neither of these are to be confused with hyphens in Unicode, but which-especially in ASCII-encoded text-could also be used either singularly as a minus (see: the hyphen-minus) or an en dash; or doubly to make an em dash (--) as easy substitution. The important thing is not so much to memorize all the rules, but more so that you are using them consistently within your writing--unlike whatever I’m doing here.

I'm suddenly reminded that I got SO mad when my technical editor erroneously replaced ALL my em dashes with en dashes in my dissertation. For sure, a ridiculous thing to be absolutely furious about, but I wanted to throw things because I couldn't just go and search/replace all en dashes with em dashes. This is because-of course-I had used en dashes for their correct purposes! But then I realized with some horror that some of my en dashes had been replaced with hyphens. God that was an awful copyediting day. Anyway, thank you for this moment of punctuation appreciation! And venting, apparently!

Complete sentences that follow a colon should be capitalized-if we REALLY want to be copy-tyrants, anyway.

I remember early on in my graphic design career reading a book called "Know Your Onions", which is a book about small things that make your life easier in the design space and one section was dedicated to dashes, where and how to use them properly. I think I have been using en dashes to separate dates now that I even hold the dash button on my phone when using it because I too, love me a slighter longer dash.

John really just dropped "Language doesn't exist to oppress us. It exists to promote the clarity of expression" like it wouldn't change my life

Newspaper editor here. In my freshmen journalism class in college, my professor told us to always use em dashes when writing because people don't speak in parentheses or semicolons and neither will newspapers. Obviously, people don't speak in em dashes either, but I get what he was going for. When reading print, an em dash is going to be a lot more effective at getting the point across than parentheses or semicolons will. There are exceptions, of course, but that's always stuck with me, and nearly all my stories since have included far more em dashes with only occasional parentheses and semicolons.

My son’s name is Dash. A lot of people joke about him being named after The Incredibles. Nope. It’s this 😂

I LOVE this so much! When writing online courses as an Instructional Designer in Indianapolis, our QA editor's greatest pet peeve were the misuse of en and em dashes with hyphens. She would go on actual rampages about it.

Feeling so validated. I've been using M dashes correctly this whole time and my line manager has been correcting them wrong for years! Science comms win :))

Love seeing the passion about grammar, especially from a published author.

Dashes are one of the ways Fitzgerald gives Gatsby that hypnotic rhythm

John, from one writer to another-I'm not sure if I've ever agreed with one of your videos more than this. (FWIW I found my love of dashes mostly after forcibly weaning myself off of the semicolon.)

I like em dashes because they feel very conversational, it makes writing feel more like someone speaking to you or to eachother rather than something carefully edited- Even if it still is.

For me, asides are generally best set off with commas -- unless there is a change of subject (or a very dramatic pause). But that's just another reason the Machine will be able to differentiate our writing!

I'm an attorney and live for writing arguments. My favorite use for an Em dash is to use them to emphasize an important fact or legal principle. I basically use it like, "So you said this, but have you considered -- THIS EXTREMELY DAMNING COUNTERPOINT.

I am WITH you on em dashes! They are also my preferred punctuation for so many instances. Thanks for explaining en dashes so that I can love them too.

The real issue wasn't that it was "Chicago style-pizza," it was that Chicago-style pizza isn't really pizza and had to be replaced with New York-style pizza.