Depends pretty significantly on the angle of a hill i am about to go up or if i need to accelerate faster I try to stay in the saddle because my legs hurt far more the day after a cycle if ive spent too long out of the saddle Edit: I will add that there is actually a point at which all i can do is sit down and thats in my final 2 gears as standing vs sitting is more effort for 0 speed change at least with my bike
In the saddle. Can only stand for short bursts. I also wonder if some have to get out the saddle on steep climbs only because they haven't got low enough gears. I find spinning, sat, much less fatiguing in the long run.
In the saddle until about 400 watts. That's about as hard as I can comfortably spin with smooth pedaling for a minute while seated. Anything over that and it's time to stand. The one thing I can't stand, though, is when someone on a ride prairie dogs, popping up and down every fifteen seconds like a game of whack-a-mole on bikes.
Another thing not mentioned in this video is that I feel getting out of the saddle improves blood flow to my junk. It also helps to stretch out a bit. So often when there is a temporary increase in gradient I use it as an excuse to get out of the saddle instead of down shifting.
I'm a London Cycle Courier and probably nearly double the age of you fellas. The reason I mention that (the ancient old git thing), is because preserving your knees is a good idea. I only ride out of the saddle when negotiating a tricky manoeuvre at very low speed or sometimes cornering at very high speed. Like in Trial riding on a motorbike you have far more control when standing on the footpegs (pedals in a bicycle's case obviously), some may disagree....feel free to do so. As I first mentioned the pressure and strain on your knees is immense and you do lose energy so I never stand when ascending a hill and certainly not when riding away from a standstill at lights (yes I do stop for red lights at major junctions, that's why I'm here to write this😊). Ride safely and on the way home from work if you spot me, please don't ride like billy-ho to get past me.. particularly on the inside....massive no no! Then slow down and get in my way...... really annoying, I'm normally still working and have probably cycled 40/50 miles already. Peace, love the channel fellas 😊👍.
When standing, it appears Si tends to hold his core (hips and above) quite steady with regard to the pedal movement. If you put an imaginary saddle forward and up from the actual, I bet he would remain perfectly perched in it. When Ollie stands, his entire body becomes more fluid from the shoulders down. His core moves more up and down with the pedal strokes which appears to spread the movement of joints over more of the body and use gravity to push on the downward strokes. Or am I imagining this?
I think you're right, Si kinda sits on air where Ollie straightens out into a standing position which is more what I think of as standing up on a bike.
I ride aka Marco Pantani - out of the saddle on the drops rather than on the hoods as most Pros ride - this produces a far smaller frontal area than when you are IN the saddle since you are crouching done towards the handlebars - so you not ONLY get the power boost but a LOWER drag area - basically what Pantani did was use a SPRINTERS form to climb - his results - sans EPO - are proof it works - IF I was a sprinter I would always climb aka Pantani as you use the EXACT same muscle group and also when IN the saddle - so you are strengthening your climbing - sprinting and flat riding - when you are on the hoods - you are using a DIFFERENT muscle group - so you do NOT get the same benefits - in short - when you climb - do it on the drops - it takes some balance to get used to it and you need super strong core to hold it but it works - I find it MORE efficient as well - GCN should compare in the saddle vs out of the saddle on the hoods vs out of the saddle on the drops power numbers PLUS AERODYNAMIC drag for ALL three - you will see Pantani had it right and not sure WHY more Pro climbers do not use that style
I'm 63 and just getting to a place where I consider myself reasonably fit on the bike. I'm primarily a Zone 2, low power rider (rarely hitting 500 watts) and I don't get out of the saddle much. When I do it's nearly always to broach a sharp, steep climb that won't take longer than 20 seconds or so or when I want to power back from a loss of cadence but don't want to downshift. On a long climb, I can't imagine standing for more than a brief period of "relief," perhaps a couple dozen pedal strokes. On my ride today, I might try spending more time standing than I'm used to, just to see how my mind and body respond.
For me I actually tend to ride out of saddle for more power especially on take offs. When at any point I want to conserve energy, I'll use the saddle and focus my energy into my calfs while still maintaining a fast pace especially after reaching top speed on straight ways with little or no gradient.
I find I just naturally get out of the saddle without thinking about it on steeper climbs, short punchy climbs, when I'm struggling a bit (feeling my age :D), and from standing starts. How long I can maintain being out of the saddle is the restricting factor!
When I was in better shape I used to stand for sometimes 2 or 3 miles at a time. I found it beneficial to have both power and endurance out of the saddle. Took some work to build up. Nowadays I have little endurance out of the saddle. I'm finding it harder to call on it when it gets difficult and I actually need it. I gas out really quickly whereas before it didn't feel much different. Something worth working on I think.
I use it in various situations: just to change a position for a while, in steep sections and when I have no legs and when sprinting. But when climbing I prefer staying seated. When getting out of the saddle I usually shift 1-2 cogs down (not in steep sections). I even practice it and upper body strenght is important. Planks are good for this and I do an easier version of pullups, that helps as well. I remember years ago Chris Horner (won Vuelta 2013) he was climbing out of the saddle a lot, I mean a lot lot - I would not bet on him being clean then. He was flying. My "record" in riding out of the saddle is from Alpe d'Huez. I did it with absolutely no legs (Marmotte Alpes 2018) and I think that at least half of the climb I was out of the saddle. Still managed to finish on 213. place. Did anybody else do Marmotte Alpes?
I'm 63, 6'4" and when I'm riding somewhere between 180 to 190 lbs. I've been riding off and on since I was about 30. Historically out of the saddle always seemed to be limited to seconds before I blew up. Nine months ago I started riding on Zwift and I've found that I've gotten much better at longer intervals out of the saddle. On climbs where the gradient goes over 10% is where I find that out of the saddle, even for long periods works for me. I find that those efforts tend to work at low cadence in the vicinity of my FTP and out of the saddle reduces the strain on my knees too.
Great to hear that Zwift has improved your riding! Riding out the saddle can be a tricky skill to master, do you think that riding indoors has given you a safe space to try things out?
@@gcn Not a safe space. After a long absence from riding I've found myself riding in New England. Where I live I can only think of one flat ride, and if I don't drive to a parking lot it's not flat. The road up to my house is about 11-12% in the last 100m and there are several short climbs before that so being tired at the end of a ride sitting on the back of the saddle and pushing wasn't working, that's really where I started getting up. Then I started doing it on Zwift when the pitch was over 10%, which lead to me doing it more on the roads esp on shorter climbs where I knew I could get to the top and recover. The key for me is keeping an eye on power, shift to one or two higher gears that I'd use sitting and let the cadence drop while keeping the power from redlining. I've always been a Mountain Biker who uses a road bike to train, (though I spend way more time on the road bike) and climbing on MTBs if for me a sit and grind affair so you don't lose traction. Standing is for keeping the power up using low cadence single track. Remember I'm 85kgs plus or minus in shorts, with shoes and a camelback more like 90, I climb because I like it the accomplishment, not because I'll ever be good at it. Edit: A couple of other thoughts from someone who's transformed to a lot more out of the saddle and in the past found it not useful ..As noted by a number of other respondents, getting more of your weight on your pedals and off of the bars helps a lot, don't waste energy holding yourself up with your arms, and just like floating above the saddle in single track on a MTB this means lowering the cadence. I think that was one of my problems in the past was trying to maintain a cadence in the 80s to 90 on a climb out of the saddle sent me into the red every time. I've recently heard Chris Horner talk about his climbing and he said his cadence out of the saddle was like 75ish (or less) this from a ~60-65kg pro climber, so slowing the cadence might really be a thing. It is what has made the difference for me. Drop it down one or two cogs don't be afraid of a cadence in the 60s. Stay there for 10 or 20 turns and sit back down(and shift). Work up to longer pulls out of the saddle. I've gotten a couple of PRs this summer that way on some of my local climbs. (also how I get up the Alpe in Zwift)
I do think you can train out of the saddle riding. I've been experimenting with this lately and have found that making a conscious effort to not let my ankles flex has shown improvement. As well as just more time spent up and out.
I’m with Si. Standing feels uncomfortable and just unnatural for me. Interesting video and I’m not that surprised that Si’s hunch that some people are less effective out of the saddle than others. However, I’m even older than Si, so not sure how much I can retrain myself to be more effective!
In my experience, as someone who prefers climbing out of saddle; My HR might be higher than sitting, but my RPE is actually lower for a given power, and maintainable power output is drastically higher. I did a Zwift group ride on the Four Horsemen route (100% trainer gradient of course), and spent at least 2/3 of the time out of saddle...enough that my palms were bruised. I have considered tracking two different FTPs even; the standard one, and one for out of saddle for KOM training.
I’ve been practising/training riding out of the saddle for the past 4-5 years. I started doing this when I realised that I stood up more when I was getting fatigued. Its very trainable even at low intensities. All my mates know that I will ride the pub to pub segment on one local climbs in the Peak District. I can do this easily now even though it used to be hard. I can even do the whole climb if I want, approx 13 mins.
I am exactly the same as Simon and actually, no matter what if my legs are fatiqued or I have low energy or climb is very steep (more than 12%) it is still more comfortable for me to climb in the saddle and I am completely trash in riding out of the saddle :D. The only exceptions when I am riding out of the saddle are some 30 second efforts just to stretch my legs and increase blood flow into the lower body parts or if I am doing some high segment efforts in the end of the segments just to maximize my power output for a little moment :D Main reason why I don´t actually ride that much out of the saddle is that that my quads are fatiqued really fast during the riding out of the saddle....
I think this deserves a deeper dive. Ollie‘s technique looks completely different and maybe it also has something to do if you have long legs or rise more out of certain muscles what you prefer. I can‘t ride out of the saddle for more than a sprint, it‘s just all over the place. Maybe trained from 30 years of MTB where you are more likely to loose grip out of the saddle.
Nice experiment and look at power, heart rate and effort guys! For my regular exercise ride, it's much simpler. My ride takes me under some high power transmission lines which can be at around 155,00 to 750,000 volts. I'm occasionally reminded to get out of the saddle while passing under them by some needle-like stings of static electricity where my bottom meets the saddle.
It’s definitely a great training strategy. I worked up to riding an hour out of the saddle which really helped build power and endurance. I shifted back and forth between the hoods and drops which helped work up to the hour. The inspiration was the GCN video with Alberto Contador. Just do it like he does!
Depends on gradient and how long the hill is for me. Prefer standing but seated on really long climbs. It all depends which one you train in. I have a higher ftp out of the saddle than in. If you a stronger than you are fit, get out of the saddle. If you are heavy you get more power on the pedal out of the saddle,weight/leverage unless you have really strong legs then you can generate power seated. Pedalling efficiency comes into as well.
Standing allows me to use whatever it takes to turn the pedal like upper body strength, body weight, leveraging the handlebars and alternating fatigued muscle groups. By the way have I missed a video of Ollie’s transformation from amateur to elite cyclist?
I’ve always been told, “Seated power is king.” I used to ride a lot out of the saddle on climbs. I started practicing riding more in the saddle on climbs, and I’ve discovered that I’m now stronger riding in the saddle on climbs and go faster. I’ll only ride out to get a little rest in that position and get a boost for a few seconds. Then I sit back down again.
@@gcn Sometimes, yes! My threshold of seated climbing tends to be somewhere around 16-18% and above. Anything under that I try to stay seated the majority of the time. 😀
Once your body adjust and your technique improves, riding out of the saddle feels very natural, in my case i always try to imrpoves my technique while i ride with slower rider, i always go out of the saddle and focus on my pedaling and body position, so when i go long distances i no longer think about it
I like to ride at a highish cadence so on steep climbs I run out of gears. Following a comment Conner made in an earlier GCN video about practising riding out of the saddle I've been doing that for the last 6 months. I've seen a huge improvement over that period. Now when I run out of gears I know I can get out of the saddle for a decent stretch. (I'm working on the low cadence stuff to though 😊)
From a bio mechanical prospective the difference between Oli and Si is markable. Oli has so much more core stability than Si, Oli is straighter in the upright position where as Si is all legs and no trunk control. This has so much more to do with their individual preference for riding in and out of the saddle. On the reverse in sitting Si has less upper body sway compared to Oli who’s shoulders are moving all the time. Basically play to your own strengths and not what a random research paper normalises you should do, end of the day we are all individuals cyclists with individual strengths and weaknesses. Just enjoy the ride!😊
I almost always ride climbs seated. For me it always been about rhythm. I find seated that I can settle into a tempo and then slowly increase it throughout the climb. I kind of adopted this from a previous GCN video, I think Ollie, that talked about the benefits of not over doing it at the start of the climb. I started doing that and found that I was getting passed at the based of a climb, I now am catching and passing fellow riders mid way up. For me its easier to managed things seated. But I am going to try standing on some climbs that I routinely climb in about 5 mins to see if I can improve standing.
I definitely prefer to ride seated. when I was about eighteen or so, I came to the conclusion that when you're out of the saddle you use your body weight to help push the pedals, but at the bottom of the stroke you're fighting your own body weight (surge -surge -surge -surge -surge, etc), so when you're seated the power output is more even across the pedal stroke because the bike is supporting your weight so your muscles don't have to, so from then on I just never rode out of the saddle again. it makes sense though that if you train out of the saddle, you can train yourself to carry that momentum around the entire stroke flattening the waveform. in terms of racing clearly you'd have to be strategic, know how long you can do it for, and how long it takes to recover afterwards, as well as be able to guess the ability of your opponent in order to take advantage of when they do it
I'm thinking out of the saddle would also help if you don't have enough gears / power to sustain a reasonable cadence on climbs with higher gradients (like 12%+), at that point the extra power you can produce might actually make it more efficient, by sacrificing some endurance to preserve your legs. Especially if you come to a section where you're forced to zig-zag or similar due to speeds under 6-7 kph. I'm not sure how much difference there is, but I'm sure grinding from a seated position at like 30rpm isn't the most efficient for the muscle.
I like to ride a larger gear out of the saddle on shorter, steeper sections to take some of the work off my quads and use my hamstrings (and body weight) better. The change up feels like giving my legs a quick break.
Rode London to Brighton for the first time (longest distance ever ridden).. didn't do any hill training but managed to get up Ditchling's Hill without stopping thanks to zapping in a few gel packs beforehand and getting out the saddle most of the climb.. invaluable friendly advice from a work colleague who suggested drinking only electrolytes - his mantra to me, water was a waste and cramp was the enemy (thanks Ross!) [Rider #1678 - Novice]
I think Andrew Feather might be a person to look at for this type of thing as he seems to do both in/out of saddle! Personally I climb in the saddle and sprint out of the saddle .
Standing technique should have been discussed more. In terms of cadence, there is a sweet spot. If the cadence is too high, your legs will feel like they are falling when you are pedaling. When the cadence is too low with high torque you will only be able to last out of the saddle for a short time. You want a cadence that is slow enough to give your leg muscles time to recover on the upstroke but not so slow that it's not sustainable.
like everything, there are cases and cases. I never ride out of the saddle --get tired more easily. Learnt from a very knowledgeable person not to ride out of the saddle, nor moving your torso from left to right (for this you must have a strong core), it is more efficient to keep straight when seated.
It’s also worth discussing and testing which muscles you’re primarily and secondarily using while seated and standing. When you’re standing for intervals at a time during a climb, you’re swapping towards a more quad dominant push motion instead of a more efficient peddle, that might allow your glutes and hamstring a break, which they in turn can give your quads, when you’re seated again. TLDR: The benefit might not be in either/or, but in utilising both for maximum watt output during a climb.
Think standing vs sitting is dependent on limb proportions... seems people with long femurs relative to their lower leg prefer sitting and short femurs prefer standing (this is also the optimum configuration for squatting and Olympic weight lifting). Also, I think relative hamstring strength is a big factor (which might also be correlated back to limb proportions). The more your hamstrings are developed relative to the quads the more you will benefit from the back pull on the bottom of your stroke. Conversely quad dominate people with weak hamstrings might enjoy standing more. I grew up in the hill country of Austin with many short hills (0.5-0.75mi) that are above 10% grade so I got used to jamming up them out of the saddle. This resulted in me being quad dominant and being good at short punchy efforts (sub 3min). I was a good sprinter but I think always standing hurt the development of my seated power which hurt TT efforts and long climbing etc. I always thought this was mostly genetic but after coming back from Belgium where I spent months riding flat roads for hours in zone three I felt much stronger in seated and longer efforts and rode the best TT I had ridden despite not being well trained for it. Retrospectively I would have tried to stay seated more, ride out to more even terrain, and lift weights to address muscular imbalances between my quads and hamstrings. Thanks for the video
Do you think sitting verse standing is recruiting different muscle fibres. In that fast twitch fibres are used to generate the higher power and slow twitch fibres generate the lower power. Fast twitch fibres would produce more lactic acid which is going to limit the time in the standing position. Thoughts ?
Just want to put out the that the aero effect of being out of the saddle during sprinting is less than you mention because sprinters put their hands in the drops while sprinting, not the tops of the handlebars, and this reduces the aero impact of being out of the saddle. I also think there is an effect of rider weight as well. At 6’4” and 200 lbs, I think it’s likely that I’m better off being seated more.
I’m not fond of riding out of the saddle, and only do it when necessary. I’ve noticed that I sometimes ride scooted forward a bit on the saddle, and slightly lifted up when pouring on the power. Sort of a compromise, a middle ground between fully seated and fully out of the saddle. Maybe I’m just lazy.
As a relatively heavy (100kg) recreational rider with an FTP in the 250's, give or take, I wish these analyses took into account weight and FTP as well. I can attest that riding off the saddle is a strong no for me. These 'slight' inefficiencies Si talks about (which are mostly related to partially carrying my own weight) dominate off-the-saddle riding in my case. Minimal off-the-saddle power, again due to my weight, is north of 500W which is not sustainable for long and if I wanted to put that type of power, I can easily do it sitting down, just not for long but longer than if I did it standing up. I am just amazed seeing Ollie riding up and putting out under 300W! On the other hand, I constantly observe light cyclists having to get off the saddle in uphills because once the legs are putting too much force on the pedals, the body is pushed up anyway, and the only way to remain sitting down is to use the handlebars to get leverage, which is tiring on the arms. So they might as well stand up and do it that way. So if you are light, with a relatively decent power-to-weight FPT and good technique, stand-up pedaling may be okay, but for folks lime me, this is just not worth the effort.
I'm practicing riding out of the saddle but each time I worry about one little thing going wrong such as a single chain link breaking or a brief slip of the chain and then down I would go.
Periodically riding out of the saddle for as little as ten seconds at a time relives pressure on your sit bones. This is especially important riding on a stationary trainer.
I only wish I had a power meter to analyze the difference. I don't do well out of the saddle and rpe is all I have to go on. So, I don't even know if I'm unconsciously putting out more power when out of the saddle.
I ride on incredibly flat terrain in Florida. As Si showed, more power is produced while standing so, if I want to maintain a faster pace, I stand to get up the rare overpass. Fortunately, that's usually less than a minute. No way I could last much longer than that as age takes hold! All that said, I find most of my standing is to get back up to cruising speed after having to stop. After only about ten seconds and at cruising speed, I have to sit down as I can't maintain the RPM's like I can while in the saddle. One thing that wasn't mentioned, while trying to avoid the aerodynamics discussion, aerodynamics don't play as large a role at slower speeds such as climbing or starting after a stop.
Personally love riding out of the saddle - on zwift I ride the whole of AdZ out of the saddle - maybe because I come from a running background. Agree with comments about cadence - tough my normal cadence (which is about 95-100 when in the saddle) when out....I normally grind climbs between 65-70....but I am so much better at those climbs when out
I don't really have a preference. I mix it up, though I'm in the saddle around 80% of the time on climbs. As a youth, it was more 50/50, but racing bikes typically had a 42x21 low gear then, and there was no choice.
Both of you could practice the correct bike lean while riding the trainer out of the saddle. Without conscious effort, the trainer will collapse toward the downstroke foot (the opposite of what happens outside). Most trainers don't really lean much, so probably not much of the power/efficiency gain in the form of the mechanical advantage that bike lean lean away from downstroke gives. But especially for novices, probably important to train like you do it outside if you can. Thanks. Interesting episode.
I get out of the saddle when my butt hurts or when I'm going very slow up a hill. mountain bike is different though as the terrain is can require you to be out the saddle.
Im pretty new to road cycling. But I find riding out the saddle up hills not putting in a lot of power gives my legs a break as I can put more of my weight into the pedal stroke. Is this a thing others find helpful?
I usually get out of the saddle for short punchy climbs but seated for longer climbs only to get out to get over a pitch or to work other muscles. Most of all I just avoid climbing.
On the road, I only get out of the saddle when I need some soft tissue relief or a climb is so steep I just can't push it sitting down. Standing is hugely inefficient for me.
First off Si its well saying there is no energy disadvantage in riding out of saddle on slow climbs (16km/hr?) as aero loss are minor ... what you forgot to say if there is no headwind! So 16km/hr head wind would make any speed require more energy unless you were behind Conner 😂
There is a difference on how Ollie supports its body during out of saddle versus Simon ... so Ollie 'stands' more on his feet than its hands which makes much easier, Simon support is similar to what you would have seated.
What I'm really wondering about seeing this: How much does bike fit having a part in this? I've seen so much about bike fitting, but I've never heard anyone talking about bike fit for riding out of the saddle... #askgcntech
you can save the legs some out of the saddle putting out the same power vs in the saddle but the effort will be greater since it includes more muscles. youre basically taking the legs out of the equation more by using body weight and gravity for the down stroke but again this is a greater total body effort.
I stay in the saddle at all costs, even up steep hills. I notice on my trainer that i lose RPMs and Watts. I feel awkard being out of the saddle and i feel like I'm not in rhythm.
Here's my thesis for GCN Lab to test: there must be a direct correlation between the ankles size of the rider and there ability to ride in the saddle...
I've done up to 23% and some sustained 20% hills but always in the saddle except one circumstance - if a car comes up behind me and has to go slowly behind me. That puts lots of pressure on me to go faster and I end up standing to speed up a bit. Bad habit probably but a car coming up my arse on a steep climb freaks me out a bit.
Watching the bike movement under Si and Ollie is night and day. In a sprinter the bike movement, side to side, helps increase power? Utilising arm and back muscles? Replaced full stops with question marks, this isn't my field of study.
never used a trainer but im going to say the most obvious thing. they made the kicker go front to back and side to side for comfort and stimulation, but did they make it bounce like an inflated tire? thats the ultimate comfort mod, they could even make that vertical compliance adjustable from like 25mm - gravel size tires. if they dont have this, im yet again proven to be a genius and theyre paying a bunch of idiots working for them. if they do have that tech im still a genius because i came of with the best idea ppl specialize in spending thousands of dollars and hours and get paid to do, where as i can think for myself. or maybe theyre holding out on the tech to release it for the next generation.
Riding comfortably out the saddle is all about the right technique. As we see in 17:22 Si is doing it very very inefficient and its hard to keep this position like that. The key for me was not to rest arms and body on the handlebars, but pull! Shift 2-3 gears down, use your bodyweight to push the pedal down and pull on the handlebar, alternating left right obviously. Keep your arms bent, stay a bit lower not standing straight up!
I come from a mountainous region of the world. I had to learn how to pedal out of the saddle from early on. You can push or pull, and move around a lot more than while sitting so you need to experiment until you dial your preferred position which will vary according to the gradient. It feels easier and more natural, just like walking.
I can't help standing on a climb, when I try to site it just doesn't feel right and I have to stand again. To be fair though my hill climbing ability is abysmal
I think that there is a body-type component to this argument also. Smaller, lighter riders probably are more comfortable out of the saddle because there is less mass to support. However, as a larger cyclist, riding out of the saddle I feel like a pig on roller skates carrying a keg on my back.
