My preference has always been long keel, solely because keel bolts make me nervous. They are not very easy to inspect properly. That being said... my dad's boat, on which I learned to sail, had bolts and despite the boat being over 20 years old at the time they were in excellent condition.
I was always fond of twin/bilge keels that were strong enough to be beached. I keep thinking about Wicked Salty and some of the others that have had to do an emergency haul. Would have been nifty to have the option of beaching the boat to do an emergency repair.
When I was young, we went to Wales for vacation and all the sailboats had twin bilge keels. At low tide, the harbor was completely dry and the sailboats were all standing upright just waiting for the tide to come back in again!
Very interesting video - thanks. You didn't mention lifting keels or centreboards. I'm naturally biased towards what we chose which is a Dutch designed full keel with a retractable centreboard. Popular in The Netherlands as there isn't much depth in many of the inland waterways. On a 54' boat we only draw 1.4m with the board up, but 2.8 with it fully down.
I have an Allmand 31 a boat with a long shallow split keel with a partial skeg hung rudder. Basically we are talking a fat coastal cruiser. My hope is to do some blue water sailing, but I expect much of my travels will be along the east coast of North America and into the Caribbean while short (or single) handed. In other words a compromise boat that isn't as stable as a full keel boat, and not as manoeuvrable as a fin keel, but... I bought the boat in August in Boston, MA, and while bringing the boat through the Erie Canal to Lake Ontario I was pleased with the trade-offs that had been make on this boat.
Ive got a fiberglass modified full keel. I like that my prop is safe and my rudder has a lower bearing. And when i run over a cray pot rope, she just slides off. Tracks well to a head wind under sail. Not a fast 42ft'er but she feels solid in the ocean
Great vid.You are very knowledgeable. One major issue is Slower or Faster. After sailing MANY MANY MILES I Personally prefer a well built fast design yacht. The book Fastnet Force 10 provides us with that information. Mr. Ted. Yachts man of the year, made it with out any major issues. After sailing for my last 44 years I saw that if you have a lighter displacement yacht. You will sail farther and sail more. A heavy displacement yacht will make you motor more and sail less. It is a fact. In So cal and Mexico we have lighter winds. The security of having many tons of ballast under your feet is a nice feeling when your 100 + miles offshore. But the sound of the ocean and nature can't be beat. doing 10 + knots in the middle of the Pacific. Thank you for your great video. This is just something from an old yachtsman. Keep up the good work....
The fastnet disaster ( I can’t remember the year ) showed just the opposite. There is a very good book, ‘seaworthiness the forgotten factor’, that discusses this with lots of documentation. But, to each his own.
One of things I thought worth considering is the motion of the boat through the seas. Fin keels in steep waves do not have that "sea kindly" motion, but tend to slap or pound, and pivot at the wave crests. Hobby horsing seems to be more of an issue. We own a Bristol Channel Cutter 28 with a very full keel starting at the stem post. She can carry a ton of sail or very little.
Thanks, that was very informative and helpful. Before this I just watched a 45 min. interview with Chris Beaumont of Kraken Yachts about integral keels, so I'd go for any form of an integral keel, like a full keel or a long keel, definitely not a bolted-on keel. My type of sailing is "never in a hurry to get anywhere, ever".😉
Yes i watched that documentary too! He described how boats are hyped to be blue water when they're anything but. And corners cut not just on the design level but also on the factory floor. Friday afternoon, the guys constructing the fibre glass laminate for the hull, they just want to go home quickly so they rush it and don't take care to get the laminate at the right temperature so it bonds properly. Chris's attention to detail is extraordinary. Needless to say, inner of his Kraken 50's, brand new, costs an absolute fortune. One and a half mill, but what a vessel, built like a tank but goes like a rocket.
If ya have to keel haul your first mate for dereliction of duty[falling asleep during their watch] ,it is better to have a full keel. I see the wisdom behind your choice.
I prefer the one I have on our Southerly, a grounding plate hung swing keel. Pros are high aspect ratio, variable ballast position (great for running), variable draft (good for deep water and shallow water sailing as well as beaching). Cons are complexity (more things to go wrong such as hinge pin and lift cable lifting mechanism), and interior cabin arrangement limitations, The main advantage to us is in canal boating.
Rigging Doctor Hi, ours is a 2001 S135B. It was La Jonquille, SV Aurora Leigh. You can google La Jonquille. I was designing a 39’ Bristol Channel Cutter before I first saw the Southerly keel solution (grounding plate hung swing keel) which I fell in love with straight away. So I cut the keel off the design I was doing and the swing keel fitted in perfectly. About then we decided to buy a boat rather than spend years building a boat that I might never finish. Another combination is the shoal draft long keel with a drop centre board (4’6 to 6’6 draft) which is what my first self built Samsom C’Quoia (Canadian design) boat was. As you say no boat is perfect. A boat design layout that I really like is the Triton Warrior 38 which could be done with a swing keel and the engine aft under the cockpit floor shaft forward into a transition box onto which you mount an electric motor for a full hybrid drive. The amidships pullman berth holds a lot of appeal, I think. I love what you are doing to your head. Very bold, and making it your own style. Its all part of the lifestyle and adventure. I fully support your all electric renewable energy principle. Our boat is fairly diesel centric but I have to find a way towards non fossil fuel systems. I don’t have a problem with using ethanol on the boat and perhaps the solution for our boat is to convert the engine to ED95, the cooking to a pressure ethanol stove, and a bigger battery bank with a 10 kw motor belt driving to the prop shaft. Getting Solar panels and a wind generator aboard are the first priorities though.
Personally, I divide fixed keels into three classes: Full, Long, and Short. A full keel extends the length of the Water Line. It's advantages are very good tracking and shallow draft. It works more like a snow plow than an airplane wing. It gets its lift from shoving water aside. A long keel is clearly longer than it is deep. Though it gets much of its lift from shoving water aside, it gets some aerodynamic lift. It also limits draft to some extent, but it's best attribute is roll dampening. A short keel is at least as deep as it is long, and gets all of its lift through aerodynamic forces. It is most effective of the three at going to windward. It also has the least friction drag. The shorter it is, the more true this is. Just thought this might help. I love your videos.
Guy's that's amazing info. Although i have a 28ft Bay cruiser, I purchased new in 1992. But I love sailboats. They're just so beautiful. I always see in a documentary, how they show the center keel snap off. And the boat in a split 2nd falls to it's side. No warning at all. 🙏 ⛵ ⛵
A couple weeks ago, I sailed from St. Maarten back to Ft. Pierce on a friends 1968 Person 44 Countess. It has the same hull as yours. It rode like a Cadillac, even in rough seas. No pounding, healing was minimal. Speed was awesome. The auto pilot was acting up (broke) and had a hard time steering above 6 kts. We had to keep reefing to slow her down. I was impressed with the performance. I'm into comfort not speed anyway. I'm sure in a tight marina it would be a handful to maneuver. Wisdom's hull would be awesome for me, however we plan on doing the ICW to the Outer banks so I guess our Modified on our Pearson 365 will have to do.
In the ICW you will be VERY happy with the shallower draft (and your diesel) ;) I have actually disconnected our electronic autopilot because the Monitor windsteering works so well. The ram arm of the autopilot was a constant drag on the steering and without it the helm is really light to the touch (as long as the sails are balanced)
Really good explanation, liked the acknowledgement that things are gonna break & can you fix it (can YOU fix it!). There are few long keel boats made any more but thankfully a lot of the older fibreglass hulls have survived well and are now relatively cheap. They were mainly designed with long keels for no other reason than that's how wooden ones were built and the shape also lent itself to moulding. The wooden ones were built that way because that's what you could do with wood. Early fibreglass hulls were also overbuilt because nobody knew how good or not fibreglass would turn out to be. All of which happily means that we mere mortals can find a boat for not too much money that is capable of taking us anywhere we want to go. Happy days!
That’s exactly how it went with our boat “Wisdom”. Built in 1968 and way thicker than she would ever need to be. That durability is why we are still sailing today! Also, I bought her for a song and then spent a few years rebuilding her to make her ready for passage making, but I was starting with good bones.
You have the most informative sailing videos I have found in regards to repairs, tweets and what to expect and how to deal with the day-to -day surprises. Thank you.
Full keels and long keels are the only way to go for coastal and offshore (non competition) work! One less thing to worry about for the skipper!!! A more comfortable ride and you can hove to in a storm!!
depends 100% on your desired application. Cruising the world? go full keel encapsulated ballast, etc, preferably a boat from the 60s or early 70s for some of that 1.5-2 inch thick solid fiberglass goodness from the early days of composites where they didnt really know how to work with it yet so they just piled a TON in the molds to make sure it was strong. once a year vacations sailing with the family in the Bahamas? doesn't really matter because unless you wipe your ass with Benjamins, your not going to be buying a boat outright vs chartering anyway. going for performance/racing? Deep fin keel is the only way to go for good pointing in the wind and high (relative) speeds.
Depends on purpose for me.. you want a racing yacht then the deep bulb on end of thin keel is a reasonable choice. You want safe keel less likely to break off, protects rudder from impact and can handle a few bumps without ruining your day a nice full length keel would do me nicely.
It's not just the leading edge that provides lateral resistance to bring the boat to windward, it is proportional to the surface area, at the expense of drag.
Yes, but the leading edge does the most so the rest of the keel is just drag. This is why foiling boats have such high aspect ratio foils: maximum efficiency with minimal drag. That said, these also need speed to work while a low aspect ratio foil will provide lots of lateral resistance at very slow speeds. This is why a full keel heaves to and drifts slower than a fin keel.
Informative video, thank you. Although you incorporated most trade offs for keel design you didn't include draft. One of the full keel boats you showed (looked like a Morgen Out Island 40) had a very sallow draft, shallower than the much shorter racy one with the long blade keel. There is also swing keels great for shallow draft and deep draft for open ocean, popular in areas of high tidal ranges like the UK.
I have long keeled boat an Allegro 33, a swedish design. It has a very stable design. Similar boat has been sailed around Cap Horn and back. It flipped around without being demasted and the young couple went on to sail....
I hope the keel works as an aquatic foil rather than an air foil, otherwise you have bigger problems than losing your keel. Excellent explanation of pros and cons.
Everyone leaves them out I don't understand . They are by far the most practical option I would never consider anything else. I ain't paying slip fees and lift outs when mud docks are free.
Those video series are giving a lot of information that is easy to understand. From design perspective I like the opposites long keel and catamarans. There are a lot of stories about charting modern design racer-cruising yachts, running aground and having nightmares with insurance, completely destroying your vacation. The problem is so big that you be better to hire a crew and a skipper just to avoid that risk.
first boat a 19 footer was a twin bilge keel, 2nd boat a mini tonner 22ft racer was a fin keel, 3rd boat a 29.5 footer is a stub keel / lift center board (1st boat a sadler seawych, 2nd a David Thomas Intro 22, current boat a Jeanneau Sundream 28
Let me start by saying that I have an Allied 36 with a full keel with cut away forefoot. In addition my keel has encapsulated ballast. That brings up my first comment. All full keels do not have ballast inside the fiberglass hull (encapsulated ballast). In fact many have external ballast bolted on to the botton of the keel or bolted on in front of a deadwood. An example of the former is a Tahiti ketch and the latter is used in the Hinckley Bermuda 40. For a boat with encapsulated ballast the keel is not attached to the hull since it is part of the hull. My Allied is a good example of that. The hull canoe body and the keel are a single piece of fiberglass that the ballast is put into. The ballast is then glassed over inside the hull to keep it in place and eliminate leaks should the keel be holed by a grounding. This sort of construction cannot have the keel come off since it is not separate from the hull. Beyond differences in grounding damage between full keel and fin keel boats, the biggest difference is in handling. That difference is NOT simply due to the keel type although that plays a big part. As a generalization, boats with a fin type keel have a very different hull form than a full keel boat. In the fin keel case the canoe body of the hull tends to have minimum draft and may be quite flat bottomed. That sort of boat is also generally built to be light to enhance performance. In contrast a significant percentage of full keel boats had more traditional wine glass shaped underbodies. Relative to a fin keel boat the same length the full keel design will tend to be quite heavy. As far a boat speed goes, both fin and full keel boats can achieve similar speeds (unless the fin keeler has sufficiently light displacement and a flat enough bottom to allow planing). It just takes more wind to push the full keel boat to a given speed than a fin keeler because power required for a given speed is proportional to displacement. What about handling. In general boats with a split underbody (separate keel and rudder) with have faster response to steering. Another factor is that it is actually quite easy to back a fin keel boat with a spade rudder in a controlled fashion. In contrast, a full keel boat tends to go where it wants to in reverse until you get quite a lot of speed up. The fin keel boat, because of its faster steering response will turn more quickly and is very easy to tack quickly in contrast to a full keel boat where tacking my require back winding the jib or in extreme cases furling the jib. Also a full keeled boat will come through the wind much more slowly than a fin keeled boat. What about sailing in larger seas. In this scenario the full keel boat will tend to track more steadily. That is a factor of both the large lateral plane area of the keel and the higher displacement of the boat relative to a fin keel boat. A fin keel boat with a shallow flat bottomed canoe body will be sitting mostly on top of the waves and will tend to get bashed around a lot and will take a lot of active steering to maintain a course. That is particularly true in following seas where a fin keel boat can easily pivot on the short chord keel and end up in a broach. While that can happen with a full keel boat, the large lateral surface area of the keel works against a following sea turning the boat. However, the relative shoal draft of most full keel boats works against the tracking. Finally the hull form plays a big role. Most fin keel boats have shallow relatively flat bottomed canoe bodies that can slam in steep seas as the boat's pitching completely lifts the forward end of the boat out of the water. When the flat bottomed canoe body drops back into the water it slams. In contrast the wine glass form of many full keel boats keeps more of the boat in the water when pitching and the hull form cuts through the water when the bow drops after a pitch rather than slamming down onto the water. Just my thoughts based on my limited sailing experience.
@Todd Dunne. Excellent response which contains significant "real world experience". Thank you for taking the time to contribute this knowledge. Post should really be "pinned" as it's very relevant to the video content.
@@johnmoore3859 thank you for the kind words. Those were just my thoughts based on my limited experience from 52 years of sailing and having worked as a naval architect back in the 70s. There is considerably more to it than I put into my post.
Great video to help people choose their perfect boat. You didn't mention that the full keel provides a large lateral resistance, which is great for heaving to...and also allows the boat to track "as if it's on rails". The knot or so of speed you lose due to a larger wetted surface isn't the only downside.... The full keel is not very maneuverable astern. So, if you're going out for short trips and want to impress the folks at the marina when you dock, choose the fin keel...or at least one that is modified. Oh, and I didn't read all the comments, so if someone else covered these topics in the last 10 months, o well, my bad. Again, great video, great points.
Thanks for this video. It's the second time I watched. First time was when you originally published. I am sailing back home to Canada from Australia in about four years. Based on your video, I'm going for slow and safe so I guess that means buying a yacht with either full keel or long keel.
I’ve read stories about that route and a full keel or long keel will definitely be an asset to you! The story I read was the passage from Japan to the US, but Canada just means you don’t turn as far south as you approach ;)
@@RiggingDoctor I'm actually thinking about heading in the opposite direction. It seems easier. I've got lots of time as I'll be retired, plus I wanted to visit England which was where I spent the first 16 years of my life before I emigrated to Canada. The direction of travel will depend on the political situations closer to the time I actually leave Australia. I enjoy you videos by the way. Thanks for taking the time to make them.
Oh, you want to sail from Australia across the Indian Ocean, then across the Atlantic! That would be an epic adventure with a whole lot of beautiful sights to see!! We are glad you enjoy the videos :)
The full keel on the pilot house cruiser looked to be a good choice for ocean passage. That pilot house would sure make night watches more comfortable. Any idea of make and model of that boat. If you were stepping up I think it would be a good choice for you and Maddie. Nice conversation on keel types and their differences.
one thing i miss on this explenation. it is how they behave. my previus boat had a long keel it was easer to trim and go in a strait line. than my current boat that has a fin keel and rudder on skeg. it is faster but turns more easely.
That has to do with the weather helm. You may be able to adjust the steering and the boat's tendency to want to point into the wind by adjusting the position of your sails or adding a bowsprit to your boat. Look up "weather helm adjustments".
Useful information. Thank you. I am well trained engineer and physicist/scientist. I appreciate your low key approach. A few numbers would be helpful. But overall a great introduction to a very complex topic. I use sophisticated simulation programs to give realistic estimates of real world performance. That is what the good designers should do. A map of the performance safe sailing world would be useful. Have one handy?
In light winds, a full keel will drift while a fin keel will sail. In moderate winds, a full keel will sail slowly and a fin keel will sail quickly. In heavy winds, a full keel will sail quickly and the fin keel will be thrashed around. This is just based on my experience in a full keel and watching fin keel boats around me. We come into speed in winds above 20 knots while they are heading for safe harbor. I’ve been on a few fin keel boats and they will sail in nothing but when the wind picks up, the boat really thrashes around in an uncomfortable manner. If you are going to do coastal and fair weather, a fin keel will be the best boat for you. If you plan on serious cruising where you will get caught in bad weather, a full keel will be your safest boat.
@RiggingDoctor Thabks for that explanation! It definitely sounds like full keels are safer if you are offshore /ocean crossing but would you say that fin keel boats can do that same voyage, or is it risky?
My boat has a cast iron keel which is bolted to the hull, and a skeg rudder. However it's an older design (mid 1970s) so it has an integral "shoe" which is a wider flat portion at the top, which fits into a recess in the hull. It seems a good compromise, with the stress over a wider area.
Your chances of out running storms mid ocean are limited. You may get to a less windy part of a storm but i reckon it would be of slim benefit. It is incredibly rare for bolt keels to fall off.
@@TheSirUno Even harder in a yacht that cruses at around 6 kn. Though with advanced and more reliable weather predictions you can place yourself better.
A hard chine design like that give you more room in the cabin and probably has less rolling motion than the round bilge you have on Wisdom. Not being smart here but the keel design on your boat comes off a grounding much easier than that full keel would. I really liked it when you showed it. I suspect it would be a comfortable boat, but not fast, on the ocean.
No offense taken. Our keel actually matched the slope of that beach perfectly 🤪 In the ICW, we hit a few sandbars with speed and simply slid up over them. I wonder with a more vertical leading edge of the Alberg if it would have been more of a thud!
I would agree with that and with the long keel suction would make it even harder to break free. On the other side with the long keel you carrying the same weight and spreading it over a longer length so it probably has about a foot or so less draft. It's always about compromises. By the way, 400 amps at 48 volts dc is a huge load on you batteries. What is your total 48 volt charging capacity now? Thanks.
I sail a full keeled boat with the rudder hung off the keel. Any orca attempting to break it off, is going to end-up with a real headache. For backing-up in a crowed marina, it gives me a headache. In fact, judging which way the stern is going to go, is a total crap-shoot (and I'm the crappy skipper they'd like to shoot.)
A separate discussion of multihulls would be useful, where righting moment does not come from ballast. In other words, part of the discussion about keels only applies to monohulls.
The boat i just bought is a SD, apparently, I thought it was a fin keel, after bumping the bottom a few times, I'm glad it is and the performance isn't really different from the fin keel model, some people say they won't point as high but I disagree.
@Me Harkness, ya, nothing about lifting keels and ballasted centerboard boats like those on the Southerly / Dyscovery, Alubat, Garcia Exploration, some of the Oyster boats, etc.
I was looking at a boat that looked great except it was listing about 1-2 deg. On his chart plotted he quickly exited his last trip which looked like it went into the shallows in a river here. I figured there was something wrong with the keel but never found out since he was resistant to giving me the USCG number. Big red flags of course but would that have been a likely cause for the list. Bilges were dry. The boat was well equipped and at a good price. Still sitting there too. It was a while ago but I'm almost certain it was a Contessa.
We are going to be sailing to there in April! I really like Center Board boats. The keel can swing down to give you excellent performance when you have the water depth and swing up out of the way when you get into shallow parts. The center board box is also in the shape of a full keel, so if you ground, you have a nice big strong area to take the impact. I would prefer a CB over a wing keel just for the ability to get the keel out of the way when you get into the shallows.
@Rigging Doctor You suggest long/full keel designs are ultimately safer because they are stronger, but it's important to consider other factors that will affect your safety, such as the behavior in bad seas. In a recent interview, the first two winners of the Golden Globe Race complained about the long keel / heavy displacement of their yachts, suggesting they were more dangerous than lighter displacements because they were more difficult to control, and rolled a lot more. Also in the GGR, Susie Goodall's boat pitchpoled, resulting in her Rustler 36 being dismasted. Pitchpoling is a rare event that seems more likely in a heavy boat that has no planing ability. Reality is that an efficient rudder is also important to have, and so is the ability to make good speed when running, and so is the ability to go upwind to avoid the coast, etc. You have to factor in all these things when discussing safety and making a design choice.
I've often wondered if trading speed and upwind ability for a keel designed that's more robust to groundings is really the safest choice ? Especially when you consider some of the better built & more conservative fin keel boats.
@@chrisgoguen765 I agree. Groundings are only one problem. When a design feature is considered, all potential problems that might be the cause of that feature should be analysed and balanced. It's the only way of studying boat design.
In 50 + years sailing iv hit 1 whale 1 orca 1 container a dozen or so logs Oh and several sand banks , touch wood never sunk (close on the orca one) all in different keal configurations but i must admit id feel safer 'relaxed' in a medium keal in a steel yacht with a good skeg on the rudder - fair winds (54ft. Round bilge .steel Vandestadt was the best)
Long keel is pretty good for fulltime cruiser on a Monohull. Our BAMBA MARU has long keels - but she is a catamaran... and she was build for racing back in 1968. Whole different story. Can be a pain in the but - specialy with only one center engine ;-) Thanks for sharing! Great episode.
@@RiggingDoctor Well BAMBA MARU was still a Prototype. She helped to figure out how to build modern catamarans. It is a 1968 Prout Ocean Ranger. I found your Channel while looking for Infos. Rigging is one of the next Projects 😅
I would also mention the manuver ability of having your propeller right before your rudder. Steering when under power is much more responsive With the quick water going directly past the rudder.
Just a few things you didn’t mention, a full keel tendes to be shorter, therefore are better for shallower waters, but it is much harder to maneuver in the marinas.
I listened to this same argument before leaving from NY to Bermuda. I was on a boat this full keel sailor said was ridicules and unsafe. Our time to Bermuda was under 4 days, his time was about 7 days. He got caught in storms while we out ran storms. We recorded a top speed of 17.3 knots only flying a #4 jib with no sensation of motion, very smooth and comfortable sailing. He was totally exhausted when he arrived in Bermuda and would not leave his boat, just told me he got caught in a storm.
Then you hit a submerged sea container or a whale and rip the rudder and transom out of your boat - with any luck the full keel sailor will pick you up out of your liferaft as he bobs on by. There are plenty of online vids of yachts sinking from this very thing - if your crossing oceans alone. It's a tortoise and hare thing - full keel.
I mean, they pretty clearly stated that your keel ought to match your *personal* goals. No two random people are likely to have the same desires from a boat.
We bumped into a whale far off Georgia, it gave the boat an epic thump! Knocked us to port a few inches and scared the crap out of us! No damage, and we think the whale was ok as it was just a glancing blow. If we were in a fin keel, we would have had a very different set of events follow! Proud tortoise here 🤣
Amen to that! Why take 23 days to cross the Atlantic when it can be done in 16 days? because of an extremely low probability of hitting a floating object? And why do people think that hitting a floating object in a modern shaped boat must inevitably end in a disaster?
I have seen a Folkeboot (full keel) that has lost the ballast. The bolts were rusted away. Since the boat was made of wood, it was then unsinkable. But that doesn't happen that often.
The aspect ratio of the fin on my keel is like a wing of an glider 😀 I love it, and pray to Poseydon not to put any floating objects on our "flight" path 😉
What is your opinion of a modified keel or centerboard? I have a '72 Pearson 33 with a 4 ft draft and a centerboard. My keel isn't as long as a full keel but it's longer than a fin keel just shorter. The centerboard gives a draft over 7 .5 ft.
Center boards are the best of both worlds. Shallow draft and excellent pointing performance! Best of all, just as you can trim your sails to move the CE, you can also trim the board to move your CLR and balance the boat out better.
I'm looking at a Contessa 26 and my friends told me that I won't be happy because it'll be so slow. What do you think? If you have two identical boats, one with a full keel and one with a race keel. Say for simplicity sake, the full keel boat top speed is 6 knots. What would the high aspect ratio keel boat top speed be? Obviously this would just be a guess..but what's your guess? Thank you:)
The top speeds will be the same because of the hull speed limit. Basically, the longer the boats waterline, the faster it can sail without planning. If both boys have the same waterline length, no top speed difference! The equation is: hull speed = (water line length in feet)^0.5 x 1.34 The big difference comes in light winds. A heavy full keel will need more wind to get going while a light boat will zip along. I went out on a race boat one time, it was only 20 feet long and we did 18 knots! Obviously it gets up on plane and exceeds hull speed, and it did this in light conditions. It was very fun but I would be terrified of that thing if a squall came up while out sailing. A heavy boat usually needs about 15-20 knots of wind to start sailing nicely. In my experience, when we are out sailing in light air days (10 knots of wind or less), everyone is motoring. The light boats and the heavy boats are all going hull speed under diesel power, so no one actually takes advantage of their ability to sail in light wind. My favorite was when we passed a guy who was motoring and we were on a beam reach. He had a very light Hunter and was going the same direction, he could have been sailing but was motoring through the light breeze. My opinion: Contessa makes a really nice solid boat that you can have fun playing around in and if you ever decide you want to go further (or if you get hit by a storm) you are already in a very capable boat.
Just a quick thank you for the video. Very informative and well explained and easy to understand. Just one question which I don't know if you will be able to give some indication. How much cruising speed would you estimate would be lost between a full keel and a fin cruiser type keel if both boats were the same length.
This will play a big part in light winds. A full keel will sit while a fin keel will ghost along under the working sail. To counteract this, we have a suit of light air sails that let us ghost in very light winds. A full keel will still move along but will need a special set of sails in light wind. In high wind, both boats will have enough wind available to go as fast as the captain desires, and the heavier full keel will move more gently compared to the lighter fin keel who will be bouncing around. For sailors with diesels, both boats will be too slow in light winds and we see both of them motoring along at near hull speed when the winds are light 🤣 while we sit there moving at 1-2 knots with our light air sails.
I would love to see you folks talking with people in yacht design industry that have been designing sailboats for quite a long time. A blade keel is NOT UNSAFE in heavier weather. OMG I love it when ignorant NON engineers think something is unsafe
I specified that it’s not “unsafe” but “won’t make the storm less horrible”. I’ve been on an engineered (pronounced flimsy) boat out in the Gulf Stream in a storm and that boat was flexing around like crazy along with throwing us all over the place. Oh, and the boat was 47 feet long! A full keel (pronounced heavy displacement) boat will move more sluggishly, and that makes the storm “less awful” in my opinion. For fun, google “keel falling off” and tell me how many of the reported boats were fin keel and how many were full keel.
F.Y.I. If you are racing your long keeled boat in a conglomerate series against boats of different sizes with different keels, there are formulas used to assign handicaps to boats so that strengths and weaknesses of design that affect speed are considered and all boats are on an even playing field. So the results of the race can be determined by the strategies and skill of the skipper and crew on the boat not by the design of the boat.
I’ve got a Pearson 30, which has a integral keel, glassed in. No keel bolts. Still a fin keel, but with some of the strength benefits of a full keel. Spade rudder, though, unfortunately.
The Morgan 45 is a long keel as is the Alberg 30, not a full keel. It is sea-kindly but the full keel still holds the cup for ultimate sea-kindliness and seaworthiness.
In the states, they call them all full keels (or modified full keels or cutaway full keels) but spending some tome with the English we have learned the distinction between full and long keels.
@@RiggingDoctor Ahh... I wasn't aware of that. Being the owner of a full-keel boat AND English, I'm very protective of the distinction. lol The other benefit of the full-keel is its capacity to carry water and fuel within the keel, low down below the waterline. I carry 150 gallons of water and 125 gallons of diesel, basically, over a ton of extra ballast.
I have two engineers exams in Sweden, of course not about sailing boats. English is not my language, I use my poor school English. Sorry if you don't understand me. Not your fault. I have to say, you are great.
Good video. What I realize is that almost everything I know about airplane wings applies to keels. Those long horizontal (slab) keels are a lot of drag. That first thin keel is actually the most efficient...but that huge epoxy gusset says it's never going to work. It's probably bolted in a small footprint which is why it needs those gussets. There's no reason why something of that shape can't take all the forces on it -- so long as you don't make it a hinge! That keel should've continued right into the hull and then have all it's side bracing done inside the bilge. Problem solved. The most efficient wings are those on sail planes, long and narrow. The same applies to anything you pull through the water. I still like the idea of swing keels. Hit something and it lifts out of the way. And you can park on the beach when you want. Ground on a sandbar? Winch it up. It's kind of the Cmd-Z Undo of boating. Are there rudders that swing out of the way? The ones on my kayaks do. I can't help but think that as the wings and the hydroplanes continue to develop along with machine learning and auto pilots (Tesla autonomous driving will eventually impact sail boats) that we'll see hydroplaning blue water cruisers. 20-30 knot boats skimming along, micro-adjustments being made multiple times a second, while you and your partner are snoozing...
That will be the future. With AIS, we all show up as dots on a map so collisions will be avoided! I like your view on swing keels, the undo button is great! They really are the best of both worlds: ultra efficient and comes out of the way so you can get to shore!
Don't forget the "dagger" keel (long and thin) makes racing boats tack and gybe faster. They sort of pivot on the keel. Full keels need a bit more pressure to tack. But I like full keels for cruising.
I to like the long and full keel design however there is little information of what is a reasonable draft depth for blue water cruising, what are your thoughts
Personally, the deeper the better when you are offshore. The water is thousands of feet deep, so bumping the bottom is not a concern. The further down the ballast is, the more effective it is at resisting the heeling forces from the wind on the sails. The issue is when you want to come into port, draft instantly becomes a concern and the deciding factor. On the US, west coast boats will typically have drafts of 8 to 10 feet because all of their waters are deeper, while on the east coast 4.5 foot drafts are the favored because it’s much shallower on that side. Wisdom has a 6.5’ draft and is considered a “deep draft” boat on the east coast. There are places that we just don’t fit (the Florida Keys) because of our keel. The question really comes down to where you want to sail, and then choosing a seaworthy boat that will let you sail into your destination.
Excellent, very good explanation. Perhaps an upcoming vid on props/saildrives/shafts/etc. Those infront of the engine transmissions I'v always thought odd. Oh Maddie what have you done, could it have anything to do with Ladders? Cheers.
The old shape i.e a pilot cutter have a look at Elley Grey ideal for ocean crossing , also because no cut away forefoot it also motors much better , a fin keel does not motor well in any see state , Elley Grey 65ft OD 19 ft Beam 9knots crusing under power 10/12 knots under sail old shape but still fast and less lightly to catch lines .
She is gorgeous! In the Chesapeake, we would sometimes sail over a crab pot (that was in the middle of the channel with a dark float on it) that we didn’t see until we were on it. The keel would push it away from the prop and off at the stern; never fouling the prop!
I hear that full/long keels are less maneuverable in marinas, they track better especially with self steering, and they have better "sea motion", but do you have any video to show what all that actually means? My fin keel literally turns on a dime but keeping it pointed in a straight line at sea is terribly difficult so I'm very curious how much better a fuller keel will handle out on the water. Any videos to show this? Thanks.
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--ryeqwUSMa0.html At 10:50 in, you can see the helm not moving much as the wind steering holds out course in the ocean with a large following sea.
Very good but you didn't go into multi keel forms such as double bilge keels or triple keels or drop keels, I would like to see a follow up to discuss the attributes of these because they are quite common but I would skirt over the modern racing fins and hydrofoils as they are very specialised.
This was just a very broad overview of fin and full keels. If we went into all of them, it would have been an hour long. We did do a separate one on bilge keels, but perhaps we’ll cover the others in the future as well. Thanks for watching!
for someone shopping from scratch and you like the rudder hung from the keel or skeg ... ask yourself can the driveshaft be removed from the boat with out removing the rudder. Many can, those that can't make for a headache when replacing cutlass bearing or the driveshaft itself. let me comment on how much I enjoy your stuff
That is a very good point about the rudder and the shaft relation. Some full keel boat designers thought about that and made a bend in the rudder post to allow access to the shaft and cutlass by simply turning the rudder, other designers didn’t seem to take that into consideration and made the rudder post straight so that it is always in the way. Our Morgan has the straight post and when I needed to remove the shaft one time I had to pull the entire motor out so that I could pull the shaft inboard and then out through the companionway. It was a pain of a job! Our Alberg has a notch in the rudder post so that when you turn the rudder you can easily pull the shaft right out without any added work. Since you don’t have a boat yet, that is a very important thing to look at when shopping around!
The big difference comes in light winds. A full keel has more drag so it needs more wind to power the sails and move it. A fin keel has less drag so it will sail faster than a full in light wind. Both are limited by hull speed (but racing fin keel boats can now plane and exceed hull speed). In heavy winds, a fin keel will bounce around because it’s lighter while a full keel will move just as fast but in a more comfortable fashion.
Thanks for an interesting and informative video 👍 I was hoping you would bump into an Albin Vega on your tour, which I have, since it’s something in between all of the other boats. Maybe a semi-long, shallow keel!? But I guess it would be something like the weather helm will be good, and the rudder is well protected!? Please don’t mention the position of the prop 😅😂
Long keels can be bolted, fins can be encapsulated. Speed is a function of WLL and sail area not keel type. Keel type effecs windward ability and tracking and heaving to, like you said.
Yes, but keel types tend to affect wetted surface area and that affects speed. Hull speed is unchanging with keel design, but having less wetted surface area means you can go faster on less wind and therefore sail faster until you reach the speed limit dictated by waterline length.
What about bilge keels? And triple keels? And what is the difference between a triple keel and a long keel with bilge keel attachments? How does it help with rolling and sea motion? Turning? Going backwards? I have quite a few more questions haha
