@@philipnunn1816 I don't have any problems with my Ray II or the Bambino. They are a little fiddle, but if you fail to manipulate them, I suggest you contact a neurologist. Losing the tactile feedback in your fingers can be a sign for severe health problems.
Yeah the tiny crown is awful. The only watch I own where I'm terrified of unscrewing it to either wind or set it, knowing that I'll have to screw it back in and maybe mess up the threading or something.
I have been collecting watches since the 50´s (I am an old man) and your video is Superlative as always. I have many Orients 200 m from our neighbour Brasil factories and they are amazingly precise, far more than any of my Hamilton´s or chronometer rated Tissot. Note: When I had my electric Hamilton Pacer in 1958 I would have never thought that mechanical watches would stll exist in 2022 :) . They were so obsolete then. Cheers from frozen Patagonia.
That's so cool if you don't mind me asking what was your first watch I am really getting into vintage watches I already have 3
Год назад
@@johnking9999 hello thank you. A Longines pocket watch, a Girard Perregaux wristwatch cased in Argentina 18 kt gold and a Lanco 17 jewels. I had many, many dozens...congrats.
An interesting result there Jody. I also have both of these myself as well. Although I've got my Orient on a jubilee bracelet now instead. For me personally the San Martin wins, as the bracelet is far better, as you said. Also the bezel action and it being ceramic is a big one for me too. The only really weak point is, as you said again... That movement. But I think if you get it with the 8315 that would definitely push it over the Orient. The only thing that really made it close in the end was 'brand'. Which for me isn't important at all... As long as the name isn't stupid of course. I'd personally double weight the 'value' category instead of the 'brand'. But I guess that's what makes this hobby so interesting isn't it? We all have our own different tastes and preferences. Anyway great video as always mate.
San Martin is just so much nicer feeling. I think Jody just did not want to alienate his viewers since orient is far more popular. But make no mistake they are not on the same level quality wise. The orient is nice... just not as nice as the San Martin.
Literally nobody has a reason to wear a mechanical watch anymore. This is why I feel putting an emphasis on the brand is fine. Basically, I'm buying a Vostok or an Orient first and a device that tells the time second. Of course, materials and build quality also matters and that is reflected in the price too.
@@pumkinseed5172 The problem with the San Martin is that if it gets messed up, or you get a lemon, good luck using that warranty. You are going to send the watch back to China on your dime.
@@DM-rc4yu I get what you're saying but, I love my Vostok autos because I don't need to recharge every couple of days or EVER change a battery 👍 Or are you just referring to how everyone has the perfect time on their phones ?
I bought the green Orient Kamasu couple of years ago. I replaced the original Orient bracelet with the Strapcode oyster style one (with polished center links) that costs almost like Kamasu itself. But now the whole set looks like a thousand dollar watch if not more.
I did exactly the same thing. But I still can't wear it. Glare from sapphire crystal with no AR is a no go. I bought a nice AR domed crystal I will swap soon. In hindsight I would have bought a better watch. But there's not a lot out there I like.
I got a Kamasu because of your channel, I love the Kamasu, it looks original why would I buy a homage watch, I want people to look at my wrist and think what's that, it doesn't look like your normal divers watch and that's what I love about it.
Bought a Kamasu recently mostly for the beautiful red dial for $189. Other than the hollow endlinks I really like it, better than I expected to. The Aliexpress watches while I have a few I just don't wear them as much as my Seiko, Citizen and Orients.
You would wear San Martin brand because their watches are much more than the Aliexpress stuff. The moment you have any of their watches in hands you would know why is that.
Love these head-to-head videos. A worthy winner imo. I feel it was important to include a ‘wear’ round. Despite the inferior finishing on the case and bracelet of the Orient, people tend to overlook the importance of comfort. For me having a well finished bracelet that ticks all the spec boxes is less important than a bracelet that is comfortable. Often the lighter, cheap, rattly ones like this one on the Orient feel nicer on wrist.
Really interesting comparison. For me, I would have always gravitated towards the Orient, but the San Martin is a compelling case considering it's finish and bracelet.
I have a San Martin that was supposed to have a Seiko NH movement but got switched to a YN55 due to pandemic supply chain issues. I couldn't track down what it was and read a lot of contradictory things about who made it. Thanks for clarifying this! I can sleep at night now.
Orient is one of the watches I have sold. Bezel action was awful, the crown was small and hard to operate, the winding was really gritty and the bracelet was simply really bad with an enormous play in the endlinks. Also crystal on Kamasu was somehow the worst sapphire of any watch I had. Lume however was excellent especially on hands and I really like the look of bottle green version. I have never had this SM in my hands but I am really thinking about getting one - the black with better movement. Anyway, thank you very much for another comparison and great video. Fantastic job as usual.
I really enjoyed this video, probably because I'm wearing my Kamasu today. That was a nail-biter for sure! I've never handled a San Martin, but they look great. My Kamasu is probably my favorite everyday watch, more so than many watches that cost a lot more. Great comparisons!
Incredible video! I installed a double domed (with AR) sapphire to my kamasu and made a tremendous difference, paired with a solid 5 link bracelet. I like it that much that I don't mind paying extra for those upgrades. Thanks Jody
That is what I want to do. Install a double domed crystal. Furthermore I'm gonna swap the bezel with a coin edge and a shiny ceramic all black insert and apply metal colored paint to the cut out numerals. Can you tell me where you got the crystal? Can I use the crystals meant for the Ray/Mako?
I have one of the vintage dial Kamasus and love it. The only thing is I want to buy a jubilee bracelet from Long Island watch to replace the oyster bracelet because it matches the style and has a more aggressive taper. I’ve liked the homages from San Martin but I just can’t get over not being able to easily return or get things corrected if I have issues with an order so that’s why I’m probably not going to buy one unless it’s something I just can’t get anywhere else.
Orient was my first mechanical watch and so has a special place in my heart and collection. However there’s no denying the value for money on offer with San Martin. The only caveat for me is guarantee and after market service, you know what you’re getting with Orient but can be assured the same level of care with San Martin?
I love San Martin's latest 6200 model and would like to buy one, but the bad after sales stories are holding me back. The one I like to buy is €323,- at the moment (plus possible tax), and I expect a properly working watch for that money, with proper guarantee.
As I've recently rediscovered, wear is important. I've been wearing my SKX with its 46mm lug to lug, wears better than my other divers with smaller diameter but longer length. I'm 50/50 about the Kamasu and wonder if it would be better to buy a mako and just upgrade the crystal myself with sapphire and AR coating. Not sure if these two watches were a great comparo. The Orient would win out if I specifically wanted a diver with a day/date complication.
I find this one really difficult. The Kamasu has been my daily since I got it, a very special watch, sporty but elegant too. 3 months ago I would have had it as the winner hands down, but having acquired 2 San Martins, I am wavering, the SM build quality is untouchable at the price, I took the back off my SN011 to check the movement and the quality and weight of the caseback was astounding too. Both my SM watches have nh35 movements which nullifies the Kamasu in house advantage, which really only leaves a brand score between them, and that’s a question of time.
For me the availability is also important factor. Orient I can get today from a brick and mortar dealer, inspect before purchase and with a real warranty. While Ali is a month of wait and probably no aftersale support. Unless it is series 9, Miyota is a dealbreaking garbage. Also big price difference where I live. Orient is 200, but San Martin 310 USD. I would rather buy NH35 Phoibos from a local dealer for 330 than SM for 310.
I don't have a San Martin, but I have several Orient divers and dress watches. I have seen and held a San Martin, and I can honestly say it is extremely well made for the price. For value, I'd say San Martin, easy.
Even with the non-hacking Miyota movement, I would of chosen the San Martin here over the Orient. It’s quality and styling IMHO is just on another level to that of the Orient (that bracelet at this price point! A ceramic bezel insert and a coated domed sapphire 🤯) which looks and feels like a budget watch. As you may have gathered “the brand” doesn’t matter much to me at this level…only available on AliExpress, so what 🤷♂️ And just $30 more for the upgraded movement, makes it an easy win here…just smooth out those sharp edges a bit San Martin.
Agree mostly. I don't have a Kamasu but I have two Orient Mako USA 2 models which are extremely similar to Kamasu and arguably better. I love them both. They are different but both fairly classical in styling. I also have the San Martin with the 8215 movement and though I would prefer the 8315 I have no problems with the 8215 which is ruining very well even weigh no hacking. There is no comparison in quality as the San Martin really is superior. It wears very well also. I"m definitely keeping all three watches. The lume may not really be that different in terms of longevity but the Orient is initially brighter while the BGW9 on San Martin really is readable 6-7 hours into the night. The "sharp"edges on the San Martin are not noticeable on wearing as they are in under side of lugs and mainly noticeable if you take off the bracelet. The other area is minor and that is the bezel edges that should be slightly smoother. To compare another area correctly would be that to improve the San Martin you need to get the 8315 movement which is $30+ more but to replace the Kamasu bracelet with better would cost $60-90 more and still not be as good as the San Martin bracelet. Sam Martin isn't AliExpress only as they have their own website for sales and also sell on watchdives.com which gives an extra year warranty. Thankfully the only watches I've ever needed warranty service on were a Swiss watch with SW200 movement and a SKX that ran out of specs.
This is no competition in the UK. Kamasu @$199 =£165; San Martin from Ali = £236.46 (with a coupon as well) and you don’t get dealer back-up with a San Martin - a big factor if it goes wrong. I’ve had my Kamasu a year now and it’s definitely one of the best watches I own. I could change the bracelet but it’s perfectly satisfactory on a day to day basis. Mind you, I also have a Pagani Rolex GMT homage which is £80 currently and is even better value for money.
I own a Pepsi SKX and a San Martin Submariner and the SM is far superior to other budget brands at the price point. Very high quality feel, tough and reliable.
If only Orient had a Strapcode level bracelet...if only. I purchased it separately and it takes the watch to a different level altogether. The price pinches though.
Another fine review. I have been a big fan of Orient for quite a while. I have several in the rotation. I disagree with niggle about the band width. The size of the watch head is right at the tipping point between needing a 20 or needing a 22 mm bracelet. The larger bracelet is the right choice. It keeps the watch very stable on wrist. The smaller bracelet enables more wobble - Not a fan of that. I have not had a San Martin watch yet. This head-to-head shows me I need to fix that. (I thank you for that. My wife does NOT.)
I got the red Kamasu a while back but to me the dial is great in bright light but otherwise looks dull and lifeless, so much so that when I first got it I spent 5 mins trying to peel a sticker off the dial that did not exist. Also the bezel seems like tinny pressed rubbish to me. The crown could be bigger as most say , but I have a good grip so it isnt much of a problem. The biggest plus was the accuracy which after a month was still within a couple of seconds as long as I varied how I laid the watch down when I took it off. Bought the watch because of review by Teddy B where he said it fit his 6.5" wrist well. I have 6.75" wrist but it did not fit as my wrist must be narrower but thicker, my problem not the watches fault. Gave it to my brother as he is much bigger, then saw him in the pub couple of weeks later. " How do you get the back off to put in new batteries? as it has stopped." Philistine
The bezel has always been an issue for me too. The edge just looks like shiny tin foil. Hollow end links are also a problem. I have a different Orient with a more toolie bezel, and it's on rubber, so no bracelet issues. Some Kamasu models are also available on rubber.
Jody needs to create a customer service category, I do not own an SM watch, but I keep hearing a lot of complaints regarding their after-sales practices, when buying a watch is like gambling, I prefer to go with the surest bet, in this case, a Japanese brand like Orient, Casio, Seiko or Citizen.
Honestly the brand thing should morr be a 'consistancy' column along the lines of quality control, rather than talking about what reputation the brand name has. I think that the San Martin is a remarkably better watch than the Orient, but because orient has the reputation of 'the best affordable brand' it won out? I wholly disagree with that scoring system. Some snobby people might not like the fact that it says San Martin on the dial, but apart from the Miyota movement it's a FAR better watch.
If you got the San Martin with the 8315 movement it would loose a couple of points in the pricing category but would di better in the double points movement category and then win. There both book watches but for me the San Martin is a better watch
I wonder how many people keep their Orients on original bracelets ? I always buy them on the rubber strap and get a Strapcode/Miltat bracelet. Other than that the only issue with the Kamasu as mentioned by many others is the tiny crown, I'm not sure why they made it smaller than the ones on the Mako and Ray.
I work from home and do project work. Average project is about 3 months. So day and date are very important complications for me. "Is it Wednesday or Thursday?" Days blend together. Days of the week don't mean anything to me but, they do to the other consultants working on the same project. It's nice to just glance at my watch.
The only single solitary issue I have with my sn036(with the 8315) is there is the tiniest single speck of dust under the sapphire. Otherwise it is an absolute stunner that regularly receives compliments.
There's a HAIR at the 10 o'clock marker under the crystal on my Seiko Samurai, and it's still my daily wearer and a wonderful watch I don't regret for a moment. Orients just look so.... boring, frankly. For a perfectly functional, comfortable, reliable, but ultimately plain looking dive watch with an in-house movement, I've got a Casio Duro. I really think the quality of the finish and the style of the San Martin make it a more obvious choice for me personally over the Orient.
I would agree with everything you said. Aesthetically the San Martin wins hands down but for me it was always going to be the Orient. Plenty of weaknesses but an all round better watch, day and date make a big difference. The movement is good at actually telling the time, you have to go up to a Swiss movement to do significantly better and not at that price.
San Marin is better built, with better materials. Orient is a proper brand. Would be a tie for me if it wasn't for the fact that San Martin's warranty is useless.
Had the Kamasu MOP dial before. It's nowhere near as good as any of my San Martins. Fit, finish or the tolerances of the endlinks and bracelets. A typical SM dive watch feels twice the price of the Kamasu.
I own a few Orients. Bambino, Ray, Mako etc. Their dive watch weak points for me have always been the bracelet, bezels and crown. However I do value their movements and looks. But in this case I have to give it to San Martin. But like you mentioned: I'd never tell a friend to get a San Martin AliExpress watch! Too much of a hassle in case of issues! You need to take warranty and ease of repair into mind for sure!
That’s exactly it for me. The San Martin is such a looker (I do prefer their old logo, but that lent itself to the whole homage thing…), only thing is, if it goes bust I know Orient have my back, however, San Martin? If I’m a big watch RU-vidr who can blast them? Sure. If I’m me? Eh, not so sure.
Orient just need to pay some attention to details. We need the bracelet to taper in Kamasu/Mako range. Just that little thing could make them go way up in visual appearance. Of course, solid endlinks and other features would be more than welcome, but I've been using a Mako I for ages and I still think the only thing I wish it has is the taper.
I´ve bought a Orient Dive Watch for 169 € and had it since 7 days on wrist. Now after seven days it is 27 seconds in advance to a radio controlled watch, which, I think, is pretty good. Luminescence at night is very good, precision is very high, it has robust case and a proven movement. I would prefer this watch much more, than it was done in this comparison.
Great comparison. This generally reflects my general stance on the Seiko/Orient vs San Martin question. When looking at and ogling every detail, the San Martin is nearly always going to win. Also with the specs... San Martin gives AR-coated sapphire, a great looking bracelet, end links and esp the great clasp but Orient (and Seiko) just seem to wear better. Maybe because the San Martin tends to be thicker? I bought one Strapcode for my second Orient Ray and honestly, it looks great and is better on paper, but just doesn't feel quite as good as the low-spec stock bracelet. Back when I did rougher work, two of the watches I wore the most were an SNK803 and an original Mako and other than both mineral crystals getting scuffed up a bit, they were the perfect watches. I liked the Mako so much that I ended up buying a Ray II, a Kamasu and another Ray II. I had a couple of SKXes which I sold when they ended up going up in price as I always preferred the Ray/Mako to them but they were great in their on right. I love the value San Martin provides... I've bought more San Martin watches in the last three years or so than any other brand. I'm (almost) always blown away upon the unboxing but find I usually wear them for a day or two then move on to something else. They are all in rotation I could easily live with a Ray II or Kamasu as my only watch. I don't think I'd keep any San Martin as my only watch.
In short: The key features of the Orient are much better: precision, comfort, clear vision at night because of a much better luminescence filling, brand awareness. Looking at that, the Orient Diver Watch is a very clear buy. With a sapphire glass Orient would be a "super buy"
Glad I got the San Martin with the 8315 movement. Prefer over my Kamasu any day, very well regulated out of the box, bracelet is great, very comfortable on the wrist and it's become a daily together with a Heimdallr SKX when I fancy a change). Just needs better lume!
Hi, another great video, thanks 🙏 Decided to embark on the journey of making a watch, going to go as eco as possible, think Gyre, Triwa etc I have four kids and now a grandson, the whole eco thing seems way more in focus ! I'll keep you posted on how we get on, if you're interested, would love to share the journey
Love the head to head scoring system. Very fair. God knows why hacking in cheap movements costs that much more. Unless you’re opting for a vintage feel design, hacking is an issue
Heh... well this comparison really didn't help me decide which one I like better 😂 I like the dial/bezel looks more on the Orient... but aluminum instead of ceramic. And the SM's sapphire is better, bracelet is better. Brand I don't care so much about, so... it's the Miyota that really hurts the SM I guess. Oh well.
So the real winner is a San Martin sent to your friendly local watchmaker (😁😁😁) for an NH36 conversion. 😃 I agree with your scores. They are both wonderful for the money. Fortunately or unfortunately I still have an SKX so I won't be buying one today. I have seen it so often I'm starting to wonder if nicely finished and comfortable are mutually exclusive with bracelets.
Hi Jody, I think that San Martin SN0636 + Miyota 8315 + Ali Express Sale = Winner. I would buy one myself but I am looking for a watch with a date complication.
Maybe San Martin will listen and put a better movement in (many of their watches - including mine - come with a NH35 so I was surprised at this spec). If so then this is a whole different result ... as you said.
The newer Kamasu has a slightly more refined coin edge bezel and polished chamfer edgings to the case, just FYI. It may have won over some of those categories VS its older counterpart.
San Martin is doing interesting things and chinese brands overall are becoming more competitive, but i can't yet picture the idea of something like Orient leveled with something like San Martin. Maybe in a few years and after a much larger number of authoral designs.
The San Martin SN086-G is rated 10BAR greater depth, has a more secure clasp for water sports and the superior NH35A movement (IMO), yet is £30 cheaper than the SN036-G; so surely the SN086-G should be the watch going head-to-head?
Interesting comparison. I had couple of Kamasus from black, green and blue from gen 1 to black/grey and now the red/burgundy from gen 2. All of them are great but this San Martins looks great as well. Definitely change the Orient bracelet and you have a crazy diver.
Love SM watches i have quite a few but i still would go the Orient due to having some pedigree and i dont have the red one yet but thats going to change soon...
I think the sharp edges of the San Martin should have been reflected in the bracelet/case scoring, to be honest. My wife has actually been scratched by my San Martin a couple of times. Also I think the fact the Orient has both day and date complications should be taken into acocunt, whereas the San Martin has a movement with the date but it's been ghosted out - that would drive my OCD mad, knowing the date wheel was there but hidden. I also think an aesthetic score would be good, the Orient is aesthetically a lot better and the San Martin is very derivative as far as the dial is concerned. I'm also a bit worried about San Martin's QC - my watch's logo fell off its clasp and I was told to just superglue it back on, and the slide-adjuster on the clasp also failed, forcing them to send me a replacement. The model I have is the SN019-G.
Really liked the review. I have an older Orient, and I always thought it was the best watch I've purchased for the money. However, one complaint I would make about the review is that the purpose of a watch is almost completely lost. Watches are to tell time, and for some, the date as well. The fact that the Orient has a day AND date function would make it the clear winner in my view, current scoring remaining the same. The other item related to functionality of a watch is its accuracy. There was no mention, or comparison, of accuracy between the two. Perhaps that was part of your rating in the "movement" category, but if so, it should be discussed and compared. Thanks for all the great videos! Keep 'em coming...
I'd like to see a video comparing actual dive rated watches. Yes, ISO rated and PADI approved. I love divers but I only have desk divers at the moment.
I do like the Orient, I'm just not a fan of the day-date. I'm all for a date window but who really needs a day window? I feel it cheapens these watches (and Seikos), its as though the day feature is just trying to bulk up the specs.
I was in the market to buy an everyday sports/divers watch and the Orient Kamasu was on my list of potential purchase. I ended up buying a Seestern 62mas homage after watching a few positive reviews and liking the overall fit and design of it. Big mistake that was, should have stuck to purchasing the Orient instead. When the watch from Seestern arrived and I opened the box, my OCD kicked in and went into overdrive. Firstly, the bezel is misaligned, you can't even place the bezel in-between the clicks like you can in some other watches, it just keeps going back into place. Secondly, some of the marked indices and numbers on the lumed bezel insert are slightly off, so even if the bezel alignment was fixed, I would still have an alignment issue. There are definitely some QC issues that needs to be looked at before anything comes out of the factory. I know buying any branded watches you're might come across some QC related issues, but it's easier to send them back for repair/replacement. you can always send the watches back
I do like the look of the bezel on the Sam Martin but the lower profile bezel on the Kamasu and Mako make it very easy to wear with long sleeved dress shirts. So it's a better daily driver for me.
Surprised about San Martin using the Miyota movement usually they use NH35 at this price point. Also San martin usually has pretty good lum. Interesting to wonder how a different San Martin might have fared.
Thanks for the video. Have you checked out the "Hnlgnox Mens Diver" with Tritium on Ali Express? Looks like an homage to a Luminox. Only rated for 100M so more a "divery" watch than a "diver" watch. I'm not a big dive watch fan, but I quite like the look, especially the wolf's head logo and the price is very good. Another dive watch brand you might check out is RGMT. Many of their watches are rated for 1000M and their Ohio watch is rated for 3000M.
By the scoring system, without the brand heritage San Martin would have won, even if he decided to include it but not double it. If brand isn't as important to you, I think San Martin's look is pretty hard to beat.
Why buy a stupid copying Chinese brand and support a totalitarian horror state with concentration camps, when for the same price you can get a nice japanese watch? Easy choice.
on the link, seems the San Martin has a choice of 8215 or 8315, same price. hacking and 60 hour power reserve. if that is true, that changes everything. could you please look into this. not sure if the ghost date issue on 8315
