Absolutely true, however swatting Ghostly Flicker *does* change what Orvar can choose. So the correct play is to swat Ghostly Flicker to bad targets (i.e. Orvar + Yidris). That alone will nullify orvar and flicker. Quote from ruling: "As the first triggered ability tries to resolve, the spell that caused it to trigger and that spell’s targets are checked again."
@@Racnive Wouldn't this part of the same ruling allow the original target of the spell to still be copied or no? "If at least one permanent you control that’s a target is still on the battlefield, the triggered ability will resolve, even if that permanent is now an illegal target for the spell." Or does Orvar only check what's targeted currently and have no memory of the first targeting? Also, wouldn't changing the targets of a spell to another permanent that triggers Orvar make him trigger a second time? Not an important part of this ruling but it's something I need to figure out.
@@jemm113 This ruling states that it rechecks targets on resolution to determine what you can choose to copy. Rechecking conditions is typical for intervening "if" clauses. It doesn't care whether the targets are legal for the spell, *just for the ability.* It's possible I'm reading it wrong and the ruling actually means that it's rechecking the *original* targets for validity. So, e.g. if an original target has left the battlefield it would no longer be copiable. Whereas if the original spell has left the stack, Orvar doesn't care, you still get to copy a target. However, it waffles between using present tense and past tense when referring to the targets of the spell: "the spell that caused it to trigger and that spell’s targets", "If all of the permanents you controlled that *were* targets", and "If at least one permanent you control that’s a target is still on the battlefield". I interpreted this to mean that it rechecks what the spell is targeting, but upon rereading it I see how I could be wrong. I think as it stands it's unclear, and I can't think of another card that sets precedent. On the other hand, changing the targets of a spell definitely wouldn't trigger Orvar again, since the trigger only occurs *on cast.*
@@Racnive yes the targets are rechecked but ovar can’t target himself only other permanents and he didn’t have to deflecting swat the ovar triggered ability after changing targets of the original spell the ability is essentially countered by that. If the spell was countered normally ovar checks the targets of the spell at the time that it leaves the stack. And ovar trigger still resolves normally
I love Storm, and the only reason i don't do a krark deck is because my heart can't take the fear of lose the coin flip and stop the chain, its to much for me
@@CheeseWedge056 it amazing deck, i build similar deck and its just so fookin fun play! And most of the time, it isnt even that randomized by the flip, bcs u have 2-4 krarks and for example the thumb, and u just roll
Honestly would of loved to see that clever impersonator copy sakashima. Having 3+ krark's is basically infinitie mana with a ritual. That deck is super fun to pilot. Great content.
Question about spell copies (specifically mogg salvage) doesnt the spell have to target before a copy is created? My understanding was that all copies had to have the same target unless it was worded differently
When mogg salvage finally resolved it shouldn't have been able to change targets as it wasn't the copy and it's original target was destroyed by a copy so it should have just fizzled.
The optimal play would be to have the copy target something different than the original. If the original gets sent back to hand it can always be recast. In this case where the spell is free, the only risk is a counter spell.
21:52 Storm count is at 23 (24 if you count Brain Freeze)..... It would be less... If you know... Yidris triggers were done correctly... Funny enough the storm count would've been at 19 (or much much lower due to some of the lines not working) if you don't count the misplayed Yidris triggers 1) Mogg Salvage 17:30 (In between the cast abilities that aren't Krark: crack land to search + Mana Crypt) 2) Mogg Salvage 18:02 3) Mogg Salvage 18:09 4) Mogg Salvage 18:16 5) Mogg Salvage 18:29 6) Mogg Salvage 18:35 7) Kykar, Wind's Fury 19:02 8) Azorius Signet (off of the first misplayed Yidris trigger (of the turn)) 19:05 9) Mogg Salvage 19:08 (I don't think the Fellwar Stone should've been popped here as that is the original Mogg Salvage was targeting the Azorius Signet) 10) Idyllic Tutor 19:51 11) Dranith Magistrate (off of the first legal Yidris trigger (of the turn)) 19:53 12) Underworld Breach 20:03 13) Mox Opal (off of the second legal Yidris trigger) 20:06 14) Mana Crypt (shuffling library from the second misplayed Yidris trigger) 20:20 15) Enlightened Tutor (shuffling card to bottom of library from third legal Yidris trigger) 20:24 16) Jeska's Will 20:40 17) Skullclamp (off of the third misplayed Yidris trigger) 20:50 18) Sensei's Divining Top 20:55 19) Lotus Petal (off of the fourth misplayed Yidris trigger) 21:01 20) Sol Ring 21:16 21) Chrome Mox (off of the fourth legal Yidris trigger) 21:22 22) Merchant Scroll 21:32 23) Mystical Tutor (off of the fifth legal Yidris trigger) 21:36
@@ghostware6057 Ydris specifically says "as you cast spells from your HAND this turn, they gain cascade" and not "spells not cast by this effect have cascade". Kykar was cast from the command zone (not from the hand), so it shouldn't have a cascade trigger from Ydris (as with all the cards cast from the graveyard via underworld breach). I could've used the term illegal, but I'll give the players the benefit of the doubt that they just didn't know or were lost in the moment as there was a lot going on.
So what did I learn from this episode? I learned that storm decks have too many moving pieces for my feeble mind to keep track of. That, and I still love Orvar as a commander. This was an especially fun, if not completely mind boggling, episode.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he could target the felwar with the final copy of the mogg salvage. Don't you have to name targets on cast before the krark triggers attempt to copy?
Hi! I love flipping a traditional coin, but when Krark starts going off this becomes veeery tedious.. any chance anyone knows what app is being used for flipping in the video?
does orvar even target with his ability? it says that you make a copy of one of the targets, it never says that you make a copy of target permanent that got targeted. i think you cannot use deflecting swat on that ability. i think its like something like mission briefing where you simply chose a thing on resolution without ever targeting.
I am so excited for the sol ring alter sleeves, and those x amount of rituals is why I love krark. That deck can just pop off out of nowhere and it's beautiful
So correct me if Im wrong, but Orvar does not actually target as a trigger, you choose one of the things the spell targeted on resolution, so deflecting swat cannot change its "targets" because it doesn't actually target. Interestingly though, but changing what the targets of ghostly flicker you do change what Orvar is able to copy, and thus targeting the two that you targeted would have the same general effect as what happened. Additionally if that new target isn't a permanent they control, the trigger's condition fails and they don't get any token. In the game it happened it didn't effect anything, but important to note for future reference.
I love Elsha for storm too, the ability to play the top card of the deck, keeps the storm count going and there's prowess if you choose violence, also many alternative combos. I think Elsha is just insane at all.
Loved the video! Orvar can be pretty crazy, and is also a bit of a pet card, so a little sad it didn't shine much, but Kykar did a great job going off!
8:50 - if he would GF the island token - orvar would not trigger as no spells were cast (just redirected), the token would also fade out of existance. 9:00 ish, im also confsued why Ken "always" targets the Orvar Copy Trigger ----- pls can someone tell me if that ability ITSELF has a target? i did not think it has a target. AFAIK you create a token on resolution, then you choose to have enter as one of the (still existing) targets you controlled as you cast the spell. (no targeting in the ability - except it triggering of casting a spell with targets) Based on This rulings: however, the token you create can copy only permanents you control that are targets of the spell. If the spell targets more than one permanent you control, you choose which permanent the token is copying as you create the token. (also this Ruling explains it somewhat: As the first triggered ability tries to resolve, the spell that caused it to trigger and that spell’s targets are checked again. Ignore any target of the spell that has left the battlefield by that point. If all of the permanents you controlled that were targets have left the battlefield by that point, the triggered ability will do nothing and no token will be created. If at least one permanent you control that’s a target is still on the battlefield, the triggered ability will resolve, even if that permanent is now an illegal target for the spell.)
alos curious why kent didnt use his extra Lotus mana to cast Sakashima aswell (1 mana less), i personally dont play the deck - so maybe the potential to have 4 Treasures after casting Light up the stage is better than just 1 Treasure and 2 Krark Triggers. Might just be this i guess 1 mana is hard to use Specatle cards that turn
16:57 theres a cut here that makes me curious. So Krarks flipped heads twice, for a total of 3 RoFs and tehrefore 6R. But after cut and Dockside cast he only marks 2 floating left, was there smth cut out? 17:20 ish, wouldnt Desperate Ritual from Impulse/Exile be better than pyretic Ritual from Hand? atleast if you fail you get it to hand from perma exile (actually rescind my statement - this might better play around wheels or Jeskas Will etc)
19:48 he targeted the Signet with Original Copy (19:10). Then with the first flip he hits Heads and copies (still targeting the Signet). Then second FLip he copies again and kills Signet. He cannot redirect the Original Copy to Fellwar Stone
This feels like a twitter Chain. Also had great fun watching the video and analyzing it. Keep proper Track of Storm and Stack is always hard, and webcam play hasnt made it easier, but it was a very funny match. Ty for all the "Whos the best..." Videos you do -- i absolutely love those ^^
Fun watching lightning fast games! Can someone explain why they don't have a kozilek or ulamog in their decks to counter these infinite mill combos? Would unlucky eldrazi draw once in a while really lose you that many games?
Well, here's a late response, but the idea is that hitting a dead draw rather than either a piece of interaction or something proactive is pretty bad, however it's a totally different story if you're running a graveyard engine such as Gitrog.
If you have a gilded drake, it's very dangerous to give it to the Orvar player. It essentially gives him the ability to copy the drakes and steal everyone's important creatures. Too bad the player here didn't see that interaction or he could have completely disabled the Krark player.
Did Jhoira, weatherlight captain exist during this time period? or did Jhoira not have enough "pieces" to actually work yet? i know Birgi is a main component. 5:35 That Phantasmal Image Dockside Extortionist creates SIX treasures not FIve. I'm assuming the "Treachery" enchantment wasn't "counted" because everyone's so used to Dockside giving based on Artifacts when it also counts Enchantments opponents control. 7:00 i LOVE how he has literally an infinite mana combo that would only generate exactly the mana to recast Ghostly Flicker and he picks the "Island" instead of Treachery, which would let him end his turn (if he doesn't do a win) having all opponents creatures. 9:00 This is so confusing, i hope ya'll are right on this play because Orvar only cares about if anything is "targeted" so upon casting the Ghostly Flicker he would gain an Archeomancer and an island token, where changing the targets of the ghostly flicker only gives him more things to copy with one spell cast, but if i was a judge that's how i would had ruled it. Yes Deflecting Swat allows changing the "target of an ability" but Orvar's "stuff" is a passive trigger that just "happens" when "thing" happens. In this case changing the targets for Ghostly Flicker means he gains an Archeomancer, an island, another Orvar that poofs upon creation because of legendary rule, and a Yidris that poofs because of legendary rule.
I know this video is from a lil while ago... but if someone can help me: As Yidris was sent into exile by ghostly flicker, shouldn't its owner be able to decide between exiled or commander zone? I know this from Roon, but the wording is kind of different, that's why I'm unsure.
19:20 technically, he shouldn't be able to determine the target of his Mogg Salvage at this point, the target should have been declared on cast and resolve last.
idk if it matters but ken should have gotten an extra treasure from dockside i’m assuming that it was missed because treachery is an an enchantment but idk
Then we got kess looking at all these decks funny. Sure the most optimal kess build isn't storm but is imo a stronger commander than all that got played and all that you mentioned
Putting the commander in the command zone is now a state-based action upon entering graveyard/exile, which means it happens after the full resolution of the spell. (This was changed somewhat recently to allow commanders to trigger on death/leaves battlefield effects.) Even if it could be replaced, flicker wouldn't lose track of the card, since it simply specifies "those cards", and explicitly returns them "under your control."
LED's Oracle text has the wording of "Activate only as an instant" specifically to prevent this. You can't use LED's ability during the casting of a spell, only before it.
