This etymological origin of "cathar" is disputed, and in my mind makes no sense at all. Why would anyone refer to heretics as "the pure" (Cathari/Katharóí)? It is more likely that the Dutch word "ketter" derives from the Middle High German "Ketzer", which means heretic, and in turn probably derives from the German word "Katze" (cat), attributing to the heretics some of the mischievous characteristics of a cat.
"The cathars as we understand them may never have existed" - Ad break One of the few times I've seen an ad break come at a proper cliffhanger, and not clumsily cut in mid sentence, or even mid word. Drama!
Its amazing. Western history focus primarily on crusades vs. Arab Muslims with a nod to sacking of Constantinople. The Crusade against the Cathars..is never ever Mentioned. Like it never happened..slate was wiped clean. Very Brutal !
May be for English language countries, but I guarantee that this Crusade against the Cathars is a well- known topics in France. Dozens of books, movies , TV series, etc. It's a well trodden subject believe me ;-)
@@marcmarco5373 i am very glad then, friend. At least France is keeping the memory alive. Truly this was a most Brutal extermination campaign, conparable with Nazis genocide pogroms of mid-20th century.
@@damouno Well compared to a lot of things that happened in the course of history, the Albigesan crusade was quite a minor episode. We tend to look at history with own set of values, but those were not the values of the people who lived in other times. Most Christians at the time would have seen nothing wrong with the extermination of heretics, just as the mongols (to take an example in another time and place) would have seen nothing wrong with the tactics of terror used by Gengis Khan..
@@jeremiahduran7238 At the time; the Church was the Christian Church. Period. In that context, Catholic/Protestant is an anachronism.. And BTW, last time I checked, the Protestant Churches were no slouches at oppressing and mass killing heretics when they saw the need....
In my language the word for 'Cathar' became the word for 'heretic' as a whole. We also have the somewhat cruel saying that 'someone smokes like a cathar' if he/she is a chain-smoker.
@@edim108 I'm curious to know as well... Also, for whatever reason I find Low German is never factored into much of this but rarely it is. This has significance of which I just don't know- other than that it was spoken by my Austrian family who were targeted during WW2 for extermination (no, we are not "jewish").
YESS!! Finally there will be a video on Cathars from one of the big religious study channels! I know there is many little pieces of information scattered around but I look forward to hearing it described from someone who has a very good way of expressing information, maybe I will learn something new!
Iv'e also been waiting for a video about the Cathars for a long time! I'm looking forward to hear what he has to say about the movement. I find it extraordinarily interesting.
I'm from Montpellier, and thus was born in the so called "Pays des Cathares" (currently living in what is pretty much the Heart of the land of the Cathars), the Languedoc, so in a way the Cathars hold some place in my heart. Even if there are concrete proof, I'll go against any ideas that the Cathars never existed, even if that would make me a narrow minded prick. They are the heart of our culture, of this region. It's the core of Occitania, and its history and destiny is something that many can relate to. The "Langue d'Oc" and other Occitan dialects are also in danger, yet again disappearing to the way more popular French (or "Langue d'Oil") language. Not saying that the French are ultimate evil people (I mean, I am French), however it would be heartbreaking to see the last whispers of Catharism and Occitan culture as a whole disappear. It's a beautiful region, with a beautiful culture, and awesome people, truly a treasure of France. Viva Occitania! Vive l'Occitanie! Et vive les Cathares!
You know when you mentioned how diverse the Medieval age was. It would be interesting to see the ways the different Religious orders of the Church practice their faith. Like what makes the spirituality of a Franciscan different from a Dominican. I think it would be an interesting topic. Edit: Beware of viewing the replies. There is a certain "pastor". As what he calls himself. Making Biblical statements and refusing to listen to other faiths. I just wanted to say, that this guy, below, does not represent the entire faith of Christianity. And it saddens me, as a Christian, that there are people who are like this.
Usually the Franciscans see service to others as a major main way of devotion, while Dominicans see the attainment of knowledge as a main way of devotion
It is big different between both of them and Chatars. Chatars didn`t whorship christianity. They have followed Zoroaster dualism, the same as Bogomils in Balkan. Even Bogomils from Balkan have teached Chatars.
Thank you for an excellent channel. I am learning so much from you and others like Dr. Justin Sledge over on Esoterica. How fortunate we are to live in a time where this level of esteemed educators are giving this caliber of information away virtually free. Again thank you for your tireless efforts.
Now that was a plot twist worth waiting for. Great video. Loving the collaborations. Learning so much from your videos. It’s fundamentally changing my view of religion and of the world. Great work.
I just drove through part of France near Carcassonne which had notices about Cathars everywhere and I had no idea what was going on so thanks for this.
Folk singer, Wizz Jones sings 'The Massacre of Beziers' and perfectly encapsulates the story. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-4_Ss4p6PkcA.html
Cathars are in Catalonia. The first time the territory is referred to as Catalonia (Cathalunia originally in latin) is right when the Catars were expelled from southern france. So where would they go? Exactly, right accross the pyrenees where they could take refuge and start a new society in the reconquered muslim land. The Count of catalonia also cointidentially converted to catholicism after the conflict, reaching an agreement with the pope to stop the crusade and let the cathars live as catholic converts in catalonia. The south of france was mostly repopulated with northern franks, even tho some cathars managed to survive and stay but they were few and the biggest amount od them were in catalonia.
@@adamferencszi797 : Hello, fellow commenter from the past. I came here just to say that I've been to Beziers and many other places in southerm France recently. Trains are a bit expensive but they are a perfect way to travel, and the whole region is just beautiful. To the east, you can go to Nimes and Avignon, to the west you can visit Narbonne, Carcasonne, and Toulouse, and in Toulouse change trains to go to Albi and Rodez. Castres is a bit off-track but it's worth to see as well. And if you have a bit of time, you can go through Narbonne to Perpignan and to Spain, to Barcelona.
Catharism seems like it was highly influenced by both social revolt and religious movements like gnosticism, arianism and islamic mysticism (sufism). In fact Sufism helped Ottomans a lot to easly approach "heretic" Christians, like e.g. Bosnian church followers which shared common practices.
do you know more about Bosnia? I know that the Serbian rules talked to Pope Innocent iii accusing Bosnians of using a form of Bogomils by the Bulgars. But would like to hear the Bosnian perspective if you are.
As always an excelent work Filip. Since you mentioned the bogomils, it would be great some videos about the various heterodox and sectarian groups in eastern orthodoxy, specially Russia. Greetings from Argentina
@@thatisme3thatisme38 just from the top of my mind - 15th century "ересь жидовствующих", 17th century and still running - old believers, 18th century+ - духоборы, молокане, субботники, хлысты, скопцы (sect which was really into genital mutilation)
Great video, it would be very interesting if you made a video about the militarized Anabaptists and the occupation of the city of Munster. I believe that militaristic Anabaptism is an aspect of religious European history that is unknown to many people today.
Yes !! As a French person from the south it means so much to me that you, of all my favourite Religion/History youtubers, talk about the Cathares (as we call them nowadays) ! Such a fascinating Christian movement, that had to suffer the terrible oppression of the Catholic Church... The Cathares are very reminiscent of another, smaller, Christian movement that also appeared in what is now mostly France, called the Vaudois.
We are real. And we survived. I live West Virginia. We are called the Families of the Eastern Star. We founded Alexandria Virginia and a little Country called the United States of America. Sheltered by the Kale, Romanchal and Scotts we fled to the Forest of Cumberland.
Hearing about the Cathars makes me think of Jorge Louis Borges’ short story ‘Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius’, a description of a fictional Heretical state that believed mirrors and procreation were evil as the propagated the material world.
The Cathars' views were eerily similar to Zoroastrians. I'm not say there's a direct correlation (I don't enough to claim that) but it's strikingly similar.
That is how I feel about every religious view; I'm always doing a "thumb tacks and string" presentation in my head finding similarities in religions. Which is why I don't feel I fit into any religious groups.
I'm imagining a world where the Cathar's survived and eventually encountered the Vedic religions and Buddhism and had complex discussions on their relatively similar beliefs, such as what happened with Dara Shikoh.
Also think of the althist consequences for the religious schism wars later on. Languedoc was - before the crushade - a heavily populated economical heavyweight region in europe, proudly independent against the parisean french throne. In the 100-years war as well as the reformatory conflicts that region would probably have made some alliances to shift the power balance considerably. Also modern vegetarianism would have it somewhat easier I guess.
I always wanted to know more about the Cathars as my little village in Lombardy was probably inhabited by Cathars and maybe named after them (but it is actually a celtic village)
The cathars were only living in certain part of France(languedoc).they were anihilated by Simon de montfort an anglo/french lord in what's called the albigecian crusade.very sad......very similar to what they did to the jewish population in Spain...
Great presentation as always, but quite dissapointed that you were talking about Bogumils without mentioning medieval Kingdom of Bosnia, the only entity in Europe where some form of dualism was accepted as an official state religion. Consequently, many Cathars running away from the Crusaders found their shelter in Bosnia.
My family history book has my ancestors originating in the Languedoc. It said they left town in a hurry after Catholic friends warned them of danger on St. Bartholomew’s Day now known as the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre
Interesting to hear that there may never have been a unified Cathar heresy. If any of you are looking for fiction that incorporates this religious minority, I recommend Kate Mosse's Labyrinth that alternates between the present and the Crusade. Great video as always!
Great video! Watching Esoterica's one right now. Must admit, I first heard of the Cathars by playing Broken Sword 5, so it is great to hear the actual story!
The Cathar were the 120 seed of Seth, that are NOW here in this age. The 120 are the Ones who will awaken all. The inquisition went to kill them. They said to the Cathar, after they made a great bon fire. "You will become catholic or we will throw you into the fire". The Cathar just walked into the fire. They had no pain. This scared the hell out of the inquisition, lol. "The Gnostic Truth, The 120 seed of Seth". ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-fCWPpmomyv0.html&ab_channel=AWikkedMoon
You understand they were violent, and sometimes suicidal right? They tought anything in the world is bad hence having kids was bad, God was secretely the demiurge, and Jesus comes from The real God, basically marcionalism, it was incredibly gnostic, they probably had blood sacrifices to free someone from this Planet, its obvious they gonna hate the church who thinks the creator is Good, this also implies we took Jesus and turned him into our simbol, the gnostics of this type are incredibly dangerous, they differ from buddists because buddist believes in reincarnation, which means that they atleast dont promote suicide, because of karma, they problem said that since they knew this truth they are saved because they acquired this knowlage, which means they did not cared for kindness or good works, because it was all a way to realize world bad, hence death, imagine a society in which suicide is incentived, and now imagine as a catholic, people would litterraly kill themselves which means that from a catholic they saw catharcism as basically a guaranteed way to hell, because suicide is total rejection of life, and perseverence which is a catholic philosofical concept, that is very scary, people totally thinked they were possessed
A Cathar prayer: Holy Father, Thou just God of all good souls, Thou who art never deceived, who dost never lie or doubt, grant us to know what Thou knowest, to love what thou dost love; for we are not of this world, and this world is not of us, and we fear lest we meet death in this realm of an alien god.
With Catharism preaching about earthly uncleanliness and re-incarnation, it almost seems like Catharism is "Christianity with Zoroastrian and Buddhist Characteristics".
I enjoy your content. I learned about the Cathar Church in a Medieval Heresies course during my undergrad. They posed as competition and opposition to the Catholic Church in a significant way. But as you mentioned, the notion that the Cathar "Church" was potentially more of a fictitious institution embodying various fears and interests of the Western Church is worth serious consideration.
I think there is something much deeper in regards to cathars as well as gnosticism in the western religious cannon. I like watching these videos but don't have too much knowledge outside of my reformations class from college but the works of the author phillip k dick, especially valis, almost makes my little tinfoil hat brain in regards to the catholic church go ding ding ding.
More like the interest of the French crown, who happily did all the work of the crusade and benefitted greatly, despite being hardly mentioned in this video
There si a book from John Fine about Bosnian Church which was "heretical" and pope often sent crusades on bosnian heretics. Head of church was considered as a pope for the heretics in Europe
Thank you for sharing on the Cathars. Your videos are informative and much appreciated. I would highly appreciate more videos on the gnostics and neo-platonists!
What attracts me the most to religious history is the vast array of diverse thought and opinions we find within the world faiths. In today's world many think that the religions we have today are static and never changing. This isn't true and even a cursory view of history will show that what we believe in today is drastically different from what was once believed.
Dan Brown’s inexplicably popular book (aside from anything else, one of the worst-written pieces of nonsense I ever encountered), and his source by Baigent and Leigh, haven’t helped matters, alas.
@@Historian212 And it's useless to try and discuss things with these people. Be it ancient aliens, Atlantis, or Cathars . I tried for a while , but is no use. When i try to counter their arguments they start by telling me 'i should read a few books, because i obviously don't know what i'm talking about. And when i tell them i'm a historian, they tell me i'm either part of the brain-washed or the brainwashing academia. So whatever i'm saying, i'm always wrong ...Unless i agree with them ofcourse 😅
@@spiritualanarchist8162 Maybe we all mix knowledge with bullshit off and on? A lightandlove newage freak may have a few percent right that complements your, let's say, 90 percent..Isn't that a gift then? Moreover, essential aspects of mystical knowledge will never be revealed by academia. The cathar history is shrouded in fog when it comes to the inner teachings, paraphysical abilities, esoteric heritage etc. So, my thought is, keep humble and be open to unusual transmissions of truths in the matter. All the best.
@@M-i-k-a-e-l That's not really my point. It's about projecting one's own's ideas upon a historical sect. We may not know a lot about them, but we do know they were duelists and viewed creation as a product of an evil ,or atleast ,flawed demi god. So when i read books, and see videos with people claiming Cathars were non dual nature lovers i find it annoying . What is wrong with just accepting that we don't know much about them ? Why this need to project one's own concepts upon everything 'mysterious' in the past ?
This was an interesting topic for me as I was raised a Seventh Day Adventist. That church claims to be the current embodiment of the true remnant church which has been continually persecuted and suppressed but the Catholic Church. (This is not a idea peculiar to the SDA church but is taken from earlier extreme Protestant thinking.). In support of this idea, the SDA present a history in which they are the successors of the Cathars, the Waldensians, the Hussites and just about any other dissident Christian group suppressed by the Catholic Church. It is apparent from what you have presented about the Cathars’ beliefs and practices that they have little in common with Seventh Day Adventists other than antipathy to to the Catholic Church and a preference for vegetarianism. (Edited to fix a typo)
Agreed. According to my research, references to the Albigensians in the SDA publications "The Great Controversy between Christ and Satan" by Ellen G.White, and "God has always had a people" by Kenneth McFarland are, at best, misguided. There is strong evidence that the Cathars of Languedoc believed in the doctrine of Docetism, that Christ did not come in the flesh. This stands in opposition to the Epistles of John the Beloved, who identified this early Gnostic teaching and defined it as the "spirit of antichrist". While this may have been a false accusation made against the Cathars by the Church of Rome to give them further reason to have them eliminated, the weight of evidence points to a Cathar adoption of Marcionite and Manichaean doctrine. With peculiarity, one of my sources indicates that the Cathars possessed a copy of the Gospel of St. John, and if so, how could they have read it's first chapter and still clung to such a grievous error?
I read a book by a Baptist author who made similar claims for the Cathars Waldensians and several other medieval fringe groups where he appropriated all the groups as the remnant of the "true church" thereby lending credence to the spiritual heritage bequeathed to the Baptist Churches somehow descending through the Anabaptists A short time later I read a book on church history that demonstrated some inconsistencies in that notion Anyways this video helped me understand it even better
@@bromomento3950 That obvious objection is why new religions frequently pretend to be old. If you just say that god suddenly revealed something novel to you, others will probably dismiss it. So you need to dress it up a the recovery of ancient texts or teachings that have been lost.
You seem to skip the political aspect of the Albigensian Crusade, that is, that the northern kingdom and nobility wanted an excuse to exercise authority over the south. The south of what we think of as France was, and to some extent still is, actually Occitan, ethnically, linguistically and culturally different from the French north.
An interesting book on the subject is "Montaillou,The Promised Land of Error" by Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie.He builds a picture of that village in 1300 which had a sizeable Cathar adherence,gleaned from records of the Inquisition.Interestingly the mayor of the town in 1300 has the same surname as the mayor in very recent times.Very interesting insight into Medieval village life quite apart from the religious aspect.
I second that recommendation! I read "Montaillou" just a couple of weeks ago, mainly for the insight into a Medieval village, and it was a very interesting portrait of the people in the village! Good book, a bit dense on and off, but definetly worth a read if anyone is interested in Medieval history or Christian religion history.
There was an English psychiatrist called Arthur Guirdham who came to a belief in reincarnation through the experiences of one of his patients. He claimed that he began to remember his own previous lives, including one as a Cathar during the Albigensian Crusade. The biggest of his works - which includes several earlier incarnations but concentrates on the Cathar one - is called The Lake and the Castle. It's out of print now, but if anybody should come across a second hand copy, it's well worth a read even if you don't believe a word of what Guirdham claims. It's a most entertaining book. Most of what he says about the Cathars, but not quite all, accords closely with what our splendid guide has been saying in the video.
I am puzzled as to why there is no mention of Simon de Montfort and his campaigns against the Cathars in Carcassonne Did it happen or not? Were those persons Cathars as we are told or Medieval disinformation? I would like to see this addressed in some future article.
I love Kay's appreciation of history, especially less popular historical periods. The melancholy beauty of Al Rassan is amazing. But the way he handles sex in his stories is so adolescent it really makes me cringe
Filip, So many of the illustrations are fascinating that I'd like to quote them in another context. I realise it may take too much work, but if you could possibly label some, or all of the medieval images, I should be very grateful.
Wasn't there also a political dimension to these crusades? The King of France being the Pope's main agent in their prosecution. The Languedoc was part of the French King's domain. However it spoke its own dialect(s) of French and administration was done in these. Paris was remote, and I think the Languedoc has a sense of independence. The French King wanted to this region to heel. A crusade was a good excuse to assert dominance.
The extermination of the Cathars was so complete that while the crusade to exterminate them is a real a historical event , the movement itself was so thoroughly eradicated as to doubt whether it ever had any real substance. Which I take to mean the idea or essence existed but the substance or material structure of an organization may not have. In any case they were even more throughly repressed than even the Christians of Japan who were persecuted to extinction in the seventeenth century and survived only as a highly secretive underground movement.
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You mean “ not so innocent”? Yeah, I am an ex-Catholic. Their are good people that are Catholics. However, much of the history (and other factors) of that religion are reprehensible.
Wow. Their message apparently still terrify the establishment today if the scientific community now even denies their very existence, killing them all over again, in a way. I only found out about them this week as I was looking up some ideas I came up with on my own about life, God, reality and so on. I used to be Catholic and I officially excommunicated myself 2 years ago. My only regret is that I didn't leave that cult earlier.
Thank you Sir for this excellent documentary. Not to be overlooked is what happened to the last remaining bastion of the Cathars at the Castle Montsegur. The Middle Ages were a period of great religious intolerance, and may have been prophecied in the twelfth chapter of The Revelation of St. John.
We had prayers for the Cathars who lost their lives at Monsignor recently across Europe and the world I took part they are not forgotten the holy grail link makes them a special faith & religion let's not forget the Bogomils also similer faith and they had contact with each other I believe .
@@livestreamsrecordingsuk4529 Wonderful and thank you. With peculiarity, The Cathars are referred to as Albigensians in the 1888 publication of "The Great Controversy between Christ and Satan" by Ellen G. White. In "People of the Piedmont" (1582?) they are referred to as the "Pure Ones". My only concern is the accusations of Docetism made against them by their detractors.
@@questor5189 Thanks for the information I have come across the holy man Marcel Manning he seems to have alot of knowledge on the Cathars he has met other religious Faith's in India and traveled I believe to tibet also .
The Cathar were a species of feline, bipedal humanoids native to Cathar, a planet of savannas and rough uplands. They were known for their loyalty, passion, and temper. Quick and powerful, they were considered great warriors and dedicated, efficient predators. - Wookiepedia
I'd posit that dualism, even when not directly inspired by a separate belief, is still connected. You could infer that humans have always resented their "awareness" of how weak the body is, and just how hard the act of "living" can actually be. This almost always leads to a schism in what we wish to reach for, and what our physical forms can actually grasp. It's only natural to search for blame in that scenario. I'd go so far as to argue that religion can easily be poisoned by a tendency to view this life ONLY as a test or a prison to the degree that such a view becomes self-fulfilled.
Well said. And the other way around: too lopsided belief that this is a direct heavenly abode given to us as a lollipop from God may seduce us into hedonism and miss the goal of the return of the prodigal son. But sure, sometimes one need to totally wreck oneself in earthly stuff before willingness for truth enters...
Very good feature, thank you! - But since I am a neurotically narrow-minded boomer, I am forced to inform you, that the word is PENITENCE, not PENTIENCE. (Two times in that video - but who counts?) "Penitence. The word is Penitence." (please, hear it in Homer Simpson voice and never unhear it again...)
The great historian of medieval religion, Caroline Bynum, once suggested that the Cathars were indirectly responsible for the success of the Franciscans. When St. Francis showed up preaching pantheism, which was technically heretical, the pope was so desperate for charismatic preaching to counter the allure of the Cathars that he gave the new order his blessing. A generation earlier or later, said Bynum, and Francis might have been burned at the stake instead.
@@JennetPreston Historians are often wrong. I think that his own Franciscan Order’ lack of pantheism is strong evidence to the contrary. That said, I wouldn’t put off panentheism in St. Francis, as other orthodox Christians leaned that way (such as Meister Eckhart afterwards and St. Maximus beforehand).
More likely, Pope Innocent was looking for people that embodied ‘Apostolic Poverty’, but he wasn’t strapped for orthodox friars. The Humiliati come to mind before even Francis or the Dominic.
@@Samuel-lf4ul Yes. There is zero textual evidence that Francis ever identified the Cosmos as God, which is what pantheism is, even at his most lyrical, in the Canticle of the Sun. God for him was always the Creator of the world, never the world itself.
I always heard that Catholic Baptism was more like 'a sacred vow-ceremony for the parents & the parents' friends (godparents), pledging that they raise the child to be a good Christian.'
@@SmartVideosJarkaWatched Pretty much so, baptism is a sacrament that initiates a person into membership in the church and removes sin from the baptized. Godparents act as cosponsors for the baptized.
@@luisaymerich9675 I know, I'm Roman Catholic (my Patron is St. Jude). And I'm addressing the "complaint" that we baptize people 'before they're even aware of ... anything.' It's because baptism's not "their joining the church" so much as it is "their parents'/godparents' promise to raise them in the religion." (so you'll hear lots of people say they were "raised Catholic," no matter what community they join later in life).
@@SmartVideosJarkaWatched I hear you. I too heard about churches that require members to be old enough to make a profession of faith and then get baptized. They say children cannot get baptized because they cannot make that declaration. What they fail to understand is that baptism as a sign of the new covenant replaces circumcision that was the sign of the old covenant with Abraham. In Jewish tradition the child was circumcised on the eighth day, too young to decide to become part of the covenant. The parents make that decision and raise the child to be a Jew. That is what we remember at the Presentation, the fourth joyous mystery of the rosary that we pray as Catholics. In the time of the early church the discussion about baptism was not whether children were to be baptized but when. Some believed that that one should observe the eight days of the Jewish custom while others wanted to dispense with the custom and do it as soon as possible. It was never about waiting for the child to be old enough to understand the meaning of baptism.
What fascinates me is that *if the Cathars existed,* they were wedged geographically between Aquitaine & Provence. Those two southern areas in France were associated with the medieval Courts of Love, Chivalry, courtly worship of woman as a Platonic ideal leading one to God, etc. Two more dissimilar philosophies can scarcely be imagined!
As to whether or not “Cathers” actually existed, I would tend more to trust Medieval accounts rather the than the conclusions of today’s religious scholars “of the last few decades”. Go figure 🤔
They did.. and they were Heretical' group's but today because of the indifferent" attitude and infiltrated heirarchy' with-in the Western Catholic' Church' Rome! especially they have apologize for stamping them-out. They have been apologizing for stopping the Spread of many different heresies' to please the World) but many Protestant' Reformned groups especially the Baptist" Will attempt to attach Their so-called' history Origin/Origins to many of these little Heretical' Sects' groups/movements etc. In order to appear Old' or Ancient.. it's a Grabbing at Straw's in a desperation to See" See' we always have existed! Lol' and every-one of those Sectarian' groups were in Schisms or Heresy' very Revealing* and how convenient... Nice try.' But doesn't Work to their benefit.
@@christianorthodoxy4769 Are you suggesting that stamping out dissenters is a good thing? And are you suggesting that age gives legitimacy to church doctrine? or am I totally misreading you?
@@ExiledHere It depends of what you think of the penalty' is for leading people astray' / Damnation 🔥 and what the Old' Testament and New Testament and the early Centuries of the Church did to clamp down on individuals and heretical' groups Sects' that were Un-Orthodox' (heterodox) said and did about these things. I've read it. Are your standards Almighty' God's or do you think your Way is better..? And by the way many of those Heretics' were actually given a chance bro recant/Repent' take back and Correct' their heresies' not Once" but in some cases more than 3-Times.' and even Still' they Refused" to Repent From spreading thier heresies' and in so doing condemning themselves and damning other's by leading other's to Damnation' 🔥 but then again your standards are Much higher than that Right? And are more how should I say modern and Weak' ?? Maybe. Now this is the way it was and the Church' is lead by The Holy' Spirit. Ànd so if you think your Right" as many do. Then it's YOU'RE Opinion. Sometimes fire is needed it consumes and Also Purifies' as well you would probably be the type of person would let gangrene Spread, or Cancer grow, Etc. I can tell you didn't like the response (Comment/post) but I'd rather offend (You) than Compromise The Faith' PERIOD.
@@ExiledHere So that you May enjoy the Reformned/ Deformed' Protestant' Revolt' / "Rebelion" and it's many a.) few thousand" Heretical' Sects' group's movements Organization's Splinters/fragmentation and degradation" and so-called' non-denomination/ Non-denominational evil'jelly•call'd c_hurt`ches I've been studying the history of The many different Protestant' group's and guess what They are all" found_ded by a Man" in some cases even Women, or both it's all Man-made Sectarian'ism Par-Excellence" with no Connection to.. anything (although they all" Claim it. Christianity The Church' is Over 1,980+ Year's old, Basically 2,000 year's old. Not 500 or 450 years old or even 900 years old.'
2000 years from now I can hear "Oh yeah, the Lakota Sioux? Well, there's plenty of scholarly debate as to whether or not they even existed".... **insert eye roll here**
I'd suggest the Cathars were a result of the earliest Crusaders and Pilgrims from the Holy Land, returning with greatly different understandings and perceptions of Yeshua, His teaching and origins in Gnosticism?
The precedent for the kind of indiscriminate violence by Medieval crusaders described as being inflicted in Cathar areas was set during the First Crusade, when crusaders on the journey across Europe to Jerusalem attacked and killed Jews in the Rhineland and elsewhere, and then marauded through Constantinople killing Muslims, Jews, and even Eastern Orthodox Christians.
When talking about Cathars, they would often mention only the Albigenses of Languedoc (as if no Cathars existed in other regions). However, the same faith (Patarens, Bogomils) had existed almost all over Europe - from Bulgaria and Rus' to Flandria and France, and all of them acknowledged that they are one church originating from one source, they deemed themselves to be the true Apostolic Church. In 1461, shortly before abolishing the Bogomil church in Bosnia (the last in Europe), the notorious inquisitor Torquemada interrogated its seniors, and they said (inter alia), that all popes before Sylvester had professed their (i.e. Bogomil) faith, and only Sylvester was the first traitor (Jean Duvernoy, La religion des cathares).
Cathars and Catharism is the most fascinating historical subject. You begin to learn that Cathars were quite pure and the church was and is quite sinister and tyrannical. Cathars rejected the opulance of the church and the fact they didnt need a pope or church to communicate with god didnt sit well with the power-hungry church.
Just adding this important information As early as 1167 the heads of the Cathar sect converged here - in that year, a council was held at Saint-Félix-Lauragais, attended by Cathar leaders from northern France and Italy, as well as the Bogomil Bishop of Constantinople.
I'm endlessly fascinated by The Cathars and other "heresies," and "Christianity's" (both Protestant and Catholic branches) desire to wipe out anyone and anything that doesn't conform to their "orthodoxy," in the name of a "God of Love!" And, there are plenty around today, who would drag us back to all of that!
@Àdy that doesn’t change the nature of what “wiping them out” entails dumbass. They where slaughtered by the crusaders like animals. You’re just defending murder.
