How "the Victorians" have influenced our understanding of the medieval period is one of my most favorite unfettered sh*tshows... What a fantastic video! Thanks to you both!
I love the whole concept of this series! Working adjacent to archaeologists in studying another culture that's been VERY heavily romanticized and painted as hegemonic, though less universally popular than Vikings, I see so many of the same Victorians-ruin-everything influences when I talk about my work with non-academics. Sorry, these ancient texts aren't secret mystical revelations about the cosmos and communing with deities... they're mostly about whoever was in charge at the time and how cool (they thought) they were!
This collaboration makes me SO happy 🤩 ETA: I may have had Words with my maids of honour when they produced a horned "Viking" helmet for me to wear for my hen do. Luckily it was too small for me to wear, so I tied it onto some yarn and carried it around Helsinki instead. And luckily, they also realised that it was Historically Inaccurate and we had a laugh about it being stupid plastic tat sold for children's costumes.
I’ve heard it said that Gibbons’ “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” tells you more about 18th-century British politics than it does about the actual Roman empire. Because no matter how hard we try, we are still captives of our own time and cultural upbringing. If there is a hoo-mun civilization left 200 years from now, today’s academic accomplishments will look quite quaint.
This "The Victorians ruin everything" idea is such a brilliant one! So looking forward to more episodes. Thank you both for making this collaboration and taking your time to share the knowledge!
It's so lovely to hear my own accent on RU-vid. My dream one day is to own a native pony and to do Norse settler reenactment in the region I grew up in which has a very rich Norse heritage
Wait, Jimmy studied the Minoans, too? Now I might just have to pester him to talk about them a little more, lol! I love Minoan history, but there's so little about it on RU-vid/on the non-scholarly internet. Even less about one of my favourite ancient civilizations, the Scythians...
Digital hammurabi is a cool scholarly RU-vid channel about the ancient world. They also often have researchers on. They don’t really talk about Minoans but more near east but it’s still pretty cool
This was an excellent video!! And thank you for mentioning the Mi’kmaq fishing rights struggle! I just wanted to let you both know that Mi’kmaq is pronounced more like mig-mah ! :) In many of our (I’m Métis) languages, the k takes on more of a hard g sound. Although of course there are exceptions!
Thanks for that! I really appreciate it. I'm more familiar with western nations' pronunciations since that's where I live, and I'm only realizing I've never heard the word spoken aloud before!
@@LizCapism no worries! I’m from northern BC and I 100% thinking of those Nations (and the Inuit, of course!) when I mentioned that there are exceptions haha. I moved to Montreal a few years ago so I’ve had more practice with the more eastern pronunciations now! :)
HaHaHa. Okay, I have to say this, every time you say blond, blue-eyed Vikings it throws me, cuz my personal bias (since we're talking about bias here) is red headed and either green or soul-less-dark-brown-like-a-Great-White eyes just because my family is Danish, or rather, tall, big boned, huge hand, red-headed Danish with a strain so strong it overwhelms all the other hair colors we've married into. Glad to see you finally got around to talking to each other!! (hee hee)
Haha! You really got me thinking about this and I think of read headed "vikings" as a norse+gaelic combination. What I think of in terms of norse/viking looks is the type of hair rather than a specific color. And blue-eyed is a pretty thought. It's mucky blue/gray in my minds eye - this is the eye color of most of my family so obviously there's a bias from lived experience and perceived affiliation. I am Danish too (born, brought up and currently living here too) :)
Dog whistles? So, I'm an old guy on the autism spectrum. I often need anything not entirely literal explained to me. I know what a dog whistle is, and understand the term in relation to racism, but am not sure how that relates here. If you could give an example in their conversation that would be great. I know this is a heavy burden to place on someone who makes a random comment on YT but I will put any answer this query receives from you or someone else here to nothing but the best uses, including trying to become a more compassionate and informed human. Thanks in advance.
@@thecourtlyalchemist At 4.17 she lists a few words and phrases that are common racist/colonialist/far right political dog whistles and tells people who want to use them to please not bother. I hope that helps 🙂
@@venteuse My brain gets very distracted by lists. I watched this like three times and evidently got stuck in trying to memorize the list that may object to the term Victorian every time... because information on lists is always on the test or something?? Anyway, thank you so much, Venteuse, for clarifying what should have been super-obvious for me but just wasn't.
I'm late to the party (my Watch Later queue is so long...) but this was awesome. I'm was also a literature student, not history specifically but it's so interesting when you start breaking down how many of our ideas and misconceptions about the past are really products of the 19th century. Fascinating stuff! You and Jimmy did a great job and I can't wait to see more of this series
This is awesome!!! Thank you so much for doing this! You hit on what I found about how and why we study history. Recognizing that our understanding of history changes just as much as our understanding of science, that it is not set in stone, is key to how we relate to each other. Thanks again!
Thank you to both you and Jimmy for tackling this weird, mucky, and complicated topic. Called out a bit here on the Canuck thing too. Always more to think about and learn. Take care.
Can I just say your annotations are delightful? They're such a good contextualizing tool for those of us who don't have all the experience in the field!
I love this sooo much! We romanticize the past so much we don't often stop to remember or recognize the mistakes so they can be corrected. Thats never been more apparent!!!
Thank you for bringing some more attention to the Mik'maq inherent rights struggle. It's still going on but a few weeks ago it was so bad that I had to hide from being online because everywhere I looked was violence and racist hatred towards my peoples. I also really appreciated this episode and learned a lot. Miigwech (thank you).
Miiway. I'm glad you enjoyed the video. I'm sorry you had to experience and witness those things. Sometimes I think there's nothing I can do. Then I remember I have a platform and a voice and while it's not much, I suppose it's something.
Amazing. I love the fun conversation broken up by interludes to give explanatory details. The final quote really sticks with me. Vikings are cool, I spent some time learning about Germanic mythology and the history of how we came about having knowledge of them at all and I really was fully fascinated. I don't really like the wild barbarians horned-helmet vikings from popular culture though. I guess it's a fun trope, but it gets boring and played out way too quickly. Often the real history is way more complicated and interesting, even if it doesn't fit as neatly into a narrative.
This was very interesting. As a person from Sweden with parents who are casually interested in history (I read a lot of their books on the subject while living at home) and with a close friend who studied archeology and specialised in northern nordic early settlements, I probably carry a mish mash of myth and truths when it comes to old norse culture. At the same time my mish mash is probably fairly different from the "general" idea of the vikings in the nordic countries, and I had actually not considered before how different the idea of the vikings might be outside of the nordic countries. I do have an unfortunate tendency to think my knowledge is "general" even though I have a lot of special interests. Blaming the 19th century for stuff has been a hobby of mine ever since I read Focault's The History of Sexuality for an Art Philosophy class, so I am very much looking forward to the rest of this series.
Oh, and I wonder if future historians/archeologists will say the same for us; that the establishment of internet as the main channel for information exchange meant that never before had so many people had the wrong idea about so many things.
"Hi.... Trade... Farming....? Maybe....? We have beer..." Classic Viking Greeting, that is. Attested to in all the stories. That's how Odin says hi to Thor every morning!
When I was at school we had a millennium event where each class was assigned a different period in history to re-enact and we were 'the Vikings at home'. While it was nice that we were showing that they weren't brutal warriors 100% of the time, I'm now fascinated to learn that they weren't even called Vikings if they stayed at home! Mind officially blown!
Victorians: Ah people in the medieval period where so dirty and walked around in raggy gray clothing Medieval people: I just bought some new soap gonna take a weekly bath in the river later, this yeah its a new tunic made out of red wool cost me alot but i really like bright colors. Gotta make my wife wash it for it got some dirt on it
Horns on helmets... A practical view: Speaking as someone who studied and practiced various martial arts for more than 30 years, I can tell you for a fact that putting "handles" on your head when you intend to fight is a VERY bad idea. They're only going to get in your way, and give your opponent one hell of an advantage. No self-respecting warrior would do such a silly thing.
I did a little bit of mediaeval swordfighting, & this is the #1 thing I say to people about horned helmets! It's often dangerous to make assumptions based on what *we* think people would or wouldn't do, but this is basic physics, so the lack of evidence for people *fighting* in horned helmets is 100% unsurprising.
this is amazing thank you! if at anytime one would have the opportunity to delve into where in the hell the "they used to remove their floating ribs" myth originated, i am more than interested. to this day they mention this one in costume history classes and it makes me way to angry to make any reasonable arguments about it
I'm finding this video a few months late (obviously) but it hit close home. I'm studying the Ainu people for worldbuilidng purposes. It's "just" a fanfic, but I'm still doing my due. I've spent well over $500 in books. I've dug through JSTOR and Academia dot edu for articles. I've trawled the depths of the Internet Archive for public domain books. My sources span well over a century. For the longest time, I shunned my primary sources. They mostly come from the 1880s-1910s in the forms of memoirs. The only two really good primary sources I had with any sort of academic value came from Rev. John Batchelor (1901) and Dr. Niel Gordon Munro (1930s). The Rev Batchelor tried his best to explain various aspects of Ainu culture in his long book, _The Ainu and Their Folk-lore._ But it's still highly biased. He tried to graft some sort of monotheism onto a very polytheistic worldview. Thankfully Dr. Munro's book (Ainu Creed and Cult) helps clear up a lot of what the reverend grossly misinterpreted. It's a really good companion piece as the two _were_ contemporaries even with the several decades apart in their publications. However, a few days ago, I realised just how wrong me shunning the other "problematic" primary resources was. I didn't want to read the racism. I didn't want to sit through the infuriating misunderstanding of these people. But then it hit me that _they're still primary sources._ Plus, _EVERYONE_ is biased. It's just easier to see certain biases much earlier in time. There are still things I can learn from those despite these biases. And there are even things I can learn _FROM_ those biases for my writing. It's going to be hard to read them, but I need to. For the sake of _good_ research, I need to read them.
I really love this takeaway and discussion! It's such an important thing to think and talk about. When reading with a critical eye, you can sometimes read between the lines of highly biased writing to find nuggets of truth and fact that help form a clearer picture. It's not always possible, and some of it is conjecture, but it helps! I'm glad you're taking it seriously, and that you're considering your sources and the treatment of a real culture, even in fiction, with care and consideration. I love to hear about it!
@@LizCapism There are a _ton_ of things I've taken away from this entire project in terms of learning about good scholarship and research as well as respectful research and worldbuilding. Of course, worldbuilding with indigenous cultures when white is a _whole_ other can of worms. I think I've been as absolutely respectful as I _can_ be though. I've gotten my hands on as many resources as possible, primary and academic. People will disagree with what I'm doing, but nobody can't say I've not done my best. My bibliography is over 50 sources. (Some of that is non-Ainu, since there are other ideas I'm incorporating such as falconry. It's fiction so I'll take liberties since I don't have to have one-to-one worldbuilding.) The main thing that made me want to be as educated as I can be on this as possible actually dates _all_ the way back to Twilight. I hung around a forum that had a good time dunking on Twilight and giving legitimate critiques to the issues in it. Of course, one of those was the issues with using the Quileute tribe and her _complete_ disregard for _actually_ learning about their culture, history, social structure, and so on. Now that I'm doing something similar, I'm doing my best to _not_ replicate that behavior. Heck, I was doing my own rewrite of Twilight and ran into the issue with not enough sources. So I stopped. I don't think I got past like 4 chapters. Even as a teenager, I knew it wasn't right to write a minority group without _extensive_ research.
Correct term for buffalo check is "hoser plaid" :) Canadians represent! loved this video. Can't wait for more Victorian Ruination ruination. Thank you!
This video was so interesting to watch, particularly since I was raised in Sweden. Although I did have a fair bit of previous knowledge because of my upbringing I still learned so much. Funnily enough, the belief that Vikings represented all Norse/Nordic culture of that time period and that Vikings wore horned helmets has become so ingrained in today's popular culture that tourist shops in Scandinavia sell trinkets and souvenirs that one might associate with Vikings and the infamous horned helmets (and sometimes those helmets come with red or blond braids attached on either side of the helmet).
I had to chuckle when he discussed York. My wife and I were there this Fall. The ride at the Jorvik museum is seriously a trip and a half. Apparently it has an odor? I have no sense of smell. Also, do the chocolate factory tour. Was worth it if you are a fat guy like me that loves chocolate. Lol
already knew about the helmet but I didn't know "vikings" was a profession... The good thing about studying history is that no matter how "wrong" we might be we can always study more, learn more, uncover more and correct it. : )
I loved this. I loved this so much. Thank you. Thank you both so much for this. The conversation, the editing, and flow! Also I love how this had a sort of bullet point to tie a section together and help the mind sort even if you are talking about more than just a horned helmet. Seriously, thank you for this. Just what I needed for my Friday night. Edit: any hope of more collabs between you two? Cause I'd love be part of the audience watching you both go on for days.
Academic Rigor... Ah! Having followed your rabbit warren on Victorian ruinous behaviour, I'm delighted by this video. I'm a member of the SCA, and my persona is from Gotland. (my great-great grandparents came from there) The info here supports much of what I tell people constantly when I get asked why I'm a viking. :) It is all about understanding history, cultural perceptions, and working with facts.
I remember the tour through the houses of paliarment in london when I went there with my english major (comming from germany) and the tour guide saying: "this isn't medieval. this is the victorians trying to be medieval." I'll never forget that. little remark: you (propably naturally) have a bit of a blindspot concerning the german speaking part of romanticism. it jumped at me when you showed the one iconic painting by casper david friedrich (almost the dictionary explanation picture for romanticism, "der Wanderer überm Nebelmeer" "the wanderer/hiker above the sea of fog") but didn't include his name in your little list of romanticism painters. wich is just interesting to me. this particioular picture seems to have become so synonomys with romanticism that it almost has a sort of life of it's own, somewhat detatched from casper david friedrich who painted it.
The concept of "source critique/criticism" (or "källkritik") is of greatest value when discussing history. What are the sources? How do they relate to the subject? Are they first, second or third hand accounts? What languages have they been translated from? Did the authors have specific agendas in relating their account of events? Consciously or unconsciously? I watch a lot of history youtube, but I always remember that having a youtube channel should not carry the same authority as having a PhD. (And that even if you have a PhD, you are allowed to make videos without precise academic rigour, because above all else youtube is a place to have fun. Dr David Miano has some amazingly funny videos where he lets loose a bit on "history" tiktokers (emphasis on the ""), which are less educational than his deep dives. But very fun.) I generally think of it as entertainment that might inspire more deeper looks for information, or give me starting off points for topics I may otherwise not now where to begin.
Also love what Carl Sagan said about Science: "In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." and "Science is more than a body of knowledge. It is a way of thinking; a way of skeptically interrogating the universe with a fine understanding of human fallibility. If we are not able to ask skeptical questions, to interrogate those who tell us that something is true, to be skeptical of those in authority, then, we are up for grabs for the next charlatan (political or religious) who comes rambling along." But I cannot quote all of his takes on scientific thinking and the curiosity and skepticism in balance, that allow us to get the closest-possible to Reality as we can - despite our biases...being aware of them certainly helps though. And History is quite a biased Field because humans are the ones telling it all throughout it. But, human behavior is kinda repetitive because sooner or later the mistakes are forgotten (often because of shame or the lack of a sense of "self-importance" and the urge to "feel special", among other psychological dynamic). That is why I have fallen in Love with the idea, that was presented in Isaac Asimov's Science-Fiction "Sagas": "Psycho-History"...I cannot describe it here in short, but it's a merging of mathematical statistics with quantified Events and predictions of probabilities for behavioral patterns of large Groups of Human Beings (individuals are excluded because they're too insignificant on their own most of the time). I wish this kind of Field in Science were real though and not "just Fiction"...because it certainly resonated with how I have learned about Human ([anti-]Social) Behavior since I was a Teenager or even kid...that and the distinction between "Observation, Feeling/Emotion and Need(s)" in the psychological Technique of "Non-violent Communication" developed by the Psychologist Marshall B. Rosenberg MD (R.I.P.) really helped me getting a little more "order into the chaos of my human emotions", that started to overwhelm me with/since the onset of Puberty many decades ago... Maybe it can help others, too - even though, I know, that there are no "universal solutions to diverse Individuals" usually - but pattern recognition tells me, that many of us are not as individual as we like to think and that we also crave/*need* to belong to a Group(-"Identity") in order to be human. So, taking these fundamental urges/needs into account, I think we need to cultivate a little more the "Collective" part of our "Self" and drop this current hyper-focus on "Individuality" only, which I'm quite sure is an overcompensation for social expectations of the past Eras of Human Culture(s), but it's extremely detrimental to have another extreme destroying Social Coherence just the same these days, i.m.h.o. Cheers and loved to listen to your reflections on Vikings and debunking some of the misconceptions around them in the process❣🥰
*Holliday Gift Challenge* - The Reserve Section of the Main Branch of the Ottawa Public Library has the first 2 volumes of pattern of fashion. Donated by some God/ess back in the day. So. If you feel so inclined, donate a copy of Patterns of Fashion 5 to your local library. And donate it in the name of the human in your life who inspires your sewing (in my case, it will be in memory of my Mum). This is a great collab, by-the-by. Love the Welsh Viking, thanks to 'Recommended for you' I found him a little while ago... the algorithms, they seem to know me Really well. - Cathy (&, accidentally, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown
Such a wonderful and educational collaboration! Would you mind pointing me in the direction of some sources for more information on HA Vikings? For example: if Valkyries were not blonde-haired, blue-eyed, horned-helmeted depictions, what did they look like? Or rather, what was the Norse interpretation of them? If you happen to come across something, please send it my way 😊
This was really great! Definitely subscribed 😁 Btw, that septum piercing is so cool with the overall look you have throughout the direct-to-camera part. It's like one little "out of place" thing that fits so beautifully👌 Does that make sense?😄
I think it does! I really like my piercings, and I was briefly tempted to hide them while doing vintage stuff, and then I figured - nah - they're cool and I like 'em.
As an adult with a bit of an understanding for cultural differences, I find the viking culture fascinating. They might have been brutal and proud, but as shown by the number of combs and jewelry found in viking graves, as well as all the poetry that still remains, show that they were not the barbarians we are lead to believe. Vikings did not fear death, it seems to me. They were only afraid of being forgotten, or remembered in a bad way. Understanding this has made it easier for me to understand the rest of the culture, as it is the biggest difference from our own. For those understanding norwegian, I would recomend the podcast Kongerekka by comedian Are Sende Osen and NRK.
A woman after my own heart. I've been so mad about Victorian scholarship for so long..... they have ruined everything. Check out "the way we never were" by Stephanie Coontz to be filled with more rage.
I love some cute, liberal, leftist propaganda! Okay, I'm from Denmark, so US leftism is probably a bit right-of-centre by my standards... And can I just say... I think you two did a pretty good job of this video. Early medieval Scandinavia was many things - but so many layers have been put on by subsequent eras that the popular imagery has become quite fanciful. I love a good Disney-fication, but history it ain't... You were good at sifting the wheat from the chaff.
It is my inclination to suppose that persons wearing horns are more likely to to be personifying a nature deity or spirit. Besides, horns make no sense in actual battle. You want the sword to slide off and away from you.
Its a bit rich to describe the people who invented archaeology and the systematic study of history as "ruining everything". It comes across as exactly the same arrogant misinterpretation of history as you accuse the Victorians of.
Loved the truth is now out there I started doing re enactment of the old west and eventually looking at the Native Americans then learning about how the Vikings traded with them
Do you think that there is a perception that ‘Viking’ culture was pre-Roman and Greek culture due to these societies appearing to appear to be more advanced civilisations?
Hey Jimmy and Liz! Mi'kmaq is pronounced something closer to Meeg-maw! Jsyk! - a White settler living in Mi'kma'ki, the unceeded territory of the Mi'maq people.
Have you all heard the story about the Venerable Bede making up the Anglo-Saxon invasion? That's wonderful. No such thing as the AS invasion...wow, that's a head changing meme. No "fall" of the Roman Empire, no Dark Ages...wonderful. I loved Tolkien claiming that he didn't go with the Irish Sagas because they were too bloody and instead going with Beowulf and Sigurd...
Beowulf. Do Beowulf. Please do Beowulf. My husband studied it as part of his undergrad. Ever since he's being threatening to write a libretto about Beowulf's Mother... - Cathy (&, accidently MA English MDiv Theology husband Steve - wave to the nice people honey...), Ottawa/Bytown
Oh great... Even today you will have severe differences between region in Germany... There are food items that you will get there or even more locally different names for and if you get a person from Cologne, one from Munich and one from Hamburg and let them discuss about beer you will be in for some very heated arguments... So Yea... Why assume a bloke from what is now Denmark would be exactly like one from the northmost settlement in what is now Norway...
Origin myths? Thw Republican Governor of Texas just announced The 1836 Project. Compilation of a Texas History that will teach Texas Values to all. Partly to purify public school curricula. We study Texas History in 4th and 7th grades. Has diversity crept in? Including Indigenous Texans, Tejanos and Blacks, mostly brought in as slaves by the Texians. Also, a pamphlet is needed to hand out with New drivers licenses. So Californians and other furriners can learn how to be Texan. Sorry for the interruption. I enjoyed the episode. But History can still be distorted....
If you want to see a perspective on the variations of US history and/or national identity search for Rich Hall's documentary series on You Tube (they were originally broadcast by the BBC). They're amusingly acerbic and interesting.
