Why are Drive Manufacturers in BIG TROUBLE? 

gg better luck next time

www.tomshardware.com/news/wd-lists-all-drives-slower-smr-techNOLOGY what size did you get?

F

And deploying a NAS Server with 20 of them :D

@@hkalisvaart mine is a 3.5" 3TB WD Red. I haven't noticed any slow downs, but still, it's awful to see that they don't market the product right. To be honest I'm coming from a 3TB WD Blue (that fried itself after 3 years). Well, time to try to refund this bitch.

Yeah dude I had to switch to ssd lmao

all my hard drives broke :(

Sounds like you need to back that up LOL

TJ L THEN YOU BETTER GO CATCH IT

sad but true

I'll always stick with Hitachi.

@@kokoleka808 I had a Hitaci drive in one of my laptops. Since then I have upgraded from it for more capacity. The Hitachi is now in a USB enclosure.

@@kokoleka808 hitachi huchiha

HGST

those drives are kinda clicky- but got one and still works while a 2tb portible drive died on me without explanation- maybe i dropped it but i don't recall...

loooooooooool......

R.I.P :(

Started to panic a bit after buying two 4TB Reds in March on sale on Newegg, but it looks like I got the good ones, WD40EFRX

@@emerje0 Got an WD30EFRX and an WD30EZRX in my NAS.. How do you check this??

@@st0rm617 st0rm The affected model numbers are listed here: www.hattislaw.com/cases/investigations/western-digital-lawsuit-for-shipping-slower-smr-hard-drives-including-wd-red-nas/

The cat avatar makes this comment better.

Yeah it's sadly more likely engineers concerns were ignored in favour of corporate profits

yeah no kidding, they're stealing so much value from customers with this bullshit.

Straight up a KO

yea thats the realy big problem I have with this. SMR is bad enough, the prices tough are the same or even going up now here in sweden on 2020 SMR editions of the same 2019 PMR editions.

Trrruuueee

Supply and demand

Rare-earth metals

"Because they CAN"

For same reason as prices on PSU, fans etc. Price of material.

In my country is more than 200€, you are cheaper, lol

The private internet access sponsor didnt age well…

Actually, even typists had in-place correction figured out a long time ago. But I had this awful History teacher (the kind of guy that called everybody "hoss" and "sport" and used only last names, but without the politeness of Mr. and Miss) who would make us hand-write and then type our essays in 6th and 7th grade. If we made any mistakes while typing, which of course none of us were practiced at in 1993, we had to start the page over from scratch. Of course, computers already existed, and the school even had some, so this was a stupid, pointless exercise. Walmart even sold standalone word processors at the time that were the size of a standard typewriter (and oh how I longed for one during those assignments). I was the primary computer lab assistant and lived within eyesight of the school. I don't know why I didn't think to ask permission to type my essays on the school computers, except that maybe he had a rule against it, which would make sense with that asshole. I just had to look it up, but I think that old bastard is still kickin'. I found a 50 year wedding anniversary posting but no obituary in the local newspaper.

Nah, sod it. I am more of the "backspace and smash the correct character till the paper bleeds" kind of person.

Thats a good analogy

bloodgain when did I ask?

@@bloodgain this was an interesting read - sorry that your teacher wasn't all that great my man.

Lol

Yea they are all doing it, been a know fact for many months now. 2020 is the year all consumer drives went SMR (and some prosumer, looking at you WD Red)

@ how to tell the drive is SMR/ CMR if they didn't label it? And does SMR/ CMR matters not just for prosumer, but also for normal consumer?

How’s Seagate drives? Never used it for about 5 years never had a great experience with it other than a portable Seagate that’s 320gb about 10 years old still Super strong the rest Nas and barracudas all failed and with data losses. Toshiba N300 drives are awesome I have 20 x 14Tb drives running so far for 1 year now with 5 drives fail safe and also remotely duplicated and backed up to another 20 x 14 Tb HGST NAS drives which are Super expensive but Uber reliable. Hitachi drives are the only manufacturer that does not advertise but guarantee reliable. Seagate partnered with Synology and would alert you to failure what I would love to know is how’s the sound and also operations on full tilt and do you think they are better now in terms of reliability? My research always shows me 2 sides of the camp. Personally the iron wolf pro seems awesome to me since it’s cheapest of all the options.

seagate st4000dm004 by any chance? not NAS drives per say but SMR according to the web.. just checked my Qnap DOH 2 of the Sh*ts

Ah, the good old days, when 10MB was a lot of data and using floppies made 12 seconds seem like no time at all.

12 seconds? That would be crazy fast using floppies. 10MB in 12seconds is 10BaseT Ethernet fast 😎

I don't have to imagine that.

​@@PSjustanormalguy Yeah, I didn't really mean 10MB from floppies ;) I meant doing *anything* with floppies makes 12 seconds seem fast :p

@@PSjustanormalguy lol it's 0.01baset

Yup

@@ManBearPig617xIts a Sennheiser 416, a rode could never have delivered an ASMR joke that cleanly

Did you censor the word gun or was that RU-vid?

? shotgu*n

Ah, don't I love RU-vid restrictions? "shotg*n"

*whisper* I'm writing your data to disk very gently.

"I'm looking for a hard drive for war"

It's free real estate

@@roebbiej i can't xddddd

Wait until it whispers "just let it happen" and you realize that you're actually in prison.

There's this wonderful skill people usually have, it's called reading. When properly applied to things like sales listings for an item, as opposed to just reading the actual name and ignoring everything else, it can work wonders.

@@Astraeus.. It turns out that most customers buying NAS drives are corporations where they probably buy the cheapest NAS certified drives available. And I'm pretty sure the WD Red drives are cheaper than Red Plus so they will still get SMR drives.

@@Astraeus.. There's this wonderful skill companies should have, it's called predictability. If certains products of a certain line up have a x quality level, newer models of the same line up should be at least as good as the older models.

or red smr

Yeah, probably should've called 'em "Red SMR" and "Red CMR". Not including the type of storage in the name is the main problem. Still, though, if the primary consumer of Red drives are companies and corporations, they should be smart enough to learn the difference between Red and Red Plus.

facts

Yes, i know the experience. Back in the day, I'd handle RMAs and things for my Datacenter. i'd get a call center here in the states. It made the process so much smoother. Even when they didn't know what you were talking about, they would usually connect me to the right department.

Is this copy-paste from an entire book?

A small heads up: if you get 50% more efficient, that doesnt mean you can get the same result with half of the work. 50% more of 100 is 150 but 50% more of 50 is 75.

@@horusreloaded6387 Yes very true. Classic error by me there :P The only way to know how many heads and platters they use is to open up a 2019 PMR driver and the 2020 SMR equivalent and count them, that would tell us maybe what the cost savings are. But the fact remains, they are saving on cost and converting that strait to profit, the consumer is not getting a price reduction.

You came late to the party. Until Chris Mellor and I got the ball rolling none of the makers would _ADMIT_ they were using SMR in small drives and explicitly refused to tell customers Imagine putting 3 * 4TB REDs in your RAIDZ3 array to replace aging drives hitting 60,000 hour power-on time and having this happen which is what happened to me, then WD tried to claim they weren't SMR drives, then they tried to claim that I was doing RAID wrong.....

@ dont get me wrong, i was just pointing a small error to fix on an otherwise good comment

I see what you did there...

Literally a joke. You pay so much and they juke you.

Haha. Comedy

the first

Glad you got first and didn't even mention it like a boss. This is the way it should be :)

😂😂😂👌

LMAO that was random af

Well played, shir oversheer :D

"I'll take, "'Things your Mother gave you" for $400, Trebek"

You're the man now, Dawg!

Seagate drives in a nutshell: Dead.

@@Aereto yeah, I think I'm on team SSD for the forseeable future

@@Aereto Actually in my experience WD dies a lot more and Toshiba doesn't die unless you do something idiotic to it.

@@jack.h99 SSDs are only the way to go if you don't need large size drives.

Same here my 1TB Seagate HDD last longer (in days and Data transfer) than my 2TB drive

If it's a 2.5" drive, chances are, it's SMR. Might want to check your drive against their list of SMR drives.

Even one Western Digital Black is SMR. They are scamming everyone in all colours.

Its the notebook 2.5" drives only affected. No farking way in hell a 3.5 black is smr. Blacks are superb drives. After many, many years Ive finally bid them farewell though as 6TB aint enough (remember Raptors?). Got 2x HGST/WD HC520 12TB. They datacenter drive (no more consumer HDDs for me). Fine for normal home pc use (non-NAS/raid). If getting datacentre drives, be sure to get the model versions without power disable. READ the spec & info sheets on company site to ensure. Power disable is a datacenter feature and cause compatibility issues with standard home pcs. You see a lot of bad reviews with datacentre drives because people bought the wrong model. Only buy from stores / sites that list specific full model number. BH Photo is a good one, ive imported from. Trust them way higher than newegg for example. (not that newegg is bad)

Imagine having more than 1TB of storage

Got a wd red 2 tb can relate

Yes. This always happens. I say we should not use the thing i just made for a demo in a productive environment. They use it anyway, they later cry that the data is not there and they need to make everything again and then they blame me and i have to find a way to solve the problem they created. So annoying.

"Communication breakdown". Is this like "Surprise mechanics"?

Marketing we did it last week

Hence the lawsuit. Legal penalties educate Executives and incentivize compliance with disclosure standards :)

You get what you got, cheap and slow. While expensive qnd fast

Well malice draws from stupidity most of the time ....

I've heard of Occam's razor, there's a Hanlon's razor too now? What's the deal with philosophy and razors??

Yep. Dilbert for years...

Gaming Turkey there are actually several lmao

@@beri4138 It started with Occam's Razor but the term razor has been adopted as a way of shaving off logical conclusions for other reasons as well.

What's worse is that the firmware is also different between the two drives. They might both be Reds, but the SMR drive may take more, or less time to quite an attempt at recovering a bad sector, while the CMR drive would probably drop a bad read and send out a SMART error that the data integrity is not guaranteed.

Unless you are using the affected NAS scenarios, the chances of you noticing anything other than having to pay more by avoiding smr is tiny. It does have a small performance hit, but outside of the NAS scenarios there are not many situations you should be using conventional hard drives if performance matters.

@@wyterabitt2149 thats true, but i didn't say its be the biggest consideration - just that it would BE considered. If the price difference between smr and cmr dives of the same capacity was small, i'd probably pay more for cmr for that bit of performance and suitability for a nas if i decide to repurpose later. if it was a big price difference for my main bulk media storage? id probs go smr

Just type it from the paper backup. It's quicker!

no

@RITA - F U С К М Е !!!!! OPEN MY CANAL !!! ok

@@namename-zu8uk dude you ok? 😂

They'll find a way to make them for $5 each with 1mbps r/w.

thats not what erin brocovitch said

iirc the class action lawsuit actually doesn't seek damages, but a permanent injunction against selling smr drives labeled for nas use. (and costs&fees)

Exactly. The lawyers will get their million$, and the people who got screwed will get a coupon worth $20 off their next WD drive purchase (limitations apply, expires in 2 weeks).

@@LMacNeill And usually, the company that screwed over their customers won't even admit any wrongdoing.

@@LMacNeill lmao

That's not misleading. A 2 TB (Tera Byte) Drive can store 2 TB of data. The only thing is that it's not 2 TiB (Tebi Byte) of capacity. 2 TB refers to 2.000.000.000.000 Bytes That's 1.82 TiB of capacity and is exactly what all of my 2 TB drives show me. (All of them have even several hundred thousands of bytes more than 2.000.000.000.000, so the manufacturers gave me even more capacity than advertised) It's not the responsibility of the hard drive manufacturers to educate you in SI-units and their decimal and binary variations. If you ever referred to RAM capacity as e.g. 16 GB (Giga Bytes) instead of 16 GiB (Gibi Bytes), then it's basically you who misleads yourself. (And basically every Tech-RU-vidr on this planet, since I never heard any of them say the correct Kibi, Mebi, Gibi or Tebi Byte variation) See the box "Multiples of Bytes" on the right side for reference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte

Metatr0n They did this for so long that it became a status quo as it’s been their standard practice beginning in the late 90s to measure drives “metrically”, even organizing together manufacturers to rewrite measuring metrics for computer storage. No one is going to say MebiBytes as it’s bullshit. Everyone classically understood that it was based in binary not decimal and as such meant that in the context of computing, it would be 1024 kilobytes, not 1000. I hate that they got away with this shite and that people growing up afterwards might just accept it as such despite only being a measurement pushed factitiously by storage manufacturers.

​@@Metatr0n I couldn't disagree more. while technically correct (and believe me, i've known about it all along), the reality is no OS measures in TB, it's measured in TiB. as a software engineer, i would tell you there's very good reason for that and it's called binary. there is absolutely no valid reason HD manufacturers can not represent their drives in the same units the OS uses if not to inflate their value

@@Music-bf3vn Just so you know, I'm in the IT business for 15 years now, I once or twice stumbled upon words like "binary". Your argument "Any OS measures in TiB" doesn't hold, since as hard drive manufacturers, they can't give a shit what OS developers do or how they represent data as. On top of that, Windows for example shows and always has shown the capacity in TiB but labels it as TB, so what should a hard drive manufacturer do about that? I don't know where you're from, maybe it's an US problem that in IT the correct binary SI-units aren't taught, I can tell you that in Germany for over 30 years, even before ISO, IEEE and IEC managed to get to a common denominator, the binary version was taught in universities. For some people it might look like a technicality but in fact, the difference between the decimal and the binary version is just as significant as the difference between grams and ounces. Historically speaking, the first ever commercially offered HDD was the IBM 350 with 50 physical platters each loaded with 50,000 sectors, each loaded with 100 characters. This capacity was advertised as "5 million characters". Then, since 1974 (not in the 90's!!!) HDD manufacturers used the decimal system to represent capacities, first time 1,000,000 (10^6) Bytes advertised as "1 Mega Byte". With floppies it even went wilder, since IBM defined the standard as 512-byte sectors while 2 sectors were labeled as "1K". Single Sided (SS) floppies with 720 sectors were advertised as "360KB" and Double Sided (DS) with 1,440 sectors as "720KB". High Density (HD) floppies were labelled as "1.44MB" which actually was a mixture of both, decimal and binary, since they had 2,880 sectors with 512 Byte each, thus had a size of "1440K" or rather 1,440 x 1,000 = 1.44 MB. Of course the correct size would have been 1,440 x 1,024 = 1,474,560 Byte = 1.47 MB or 1.41 MiB. (Which Windows has always shown as "1.41 MB"...) Thus they introduced 1024 x 1000 = 1,024,000 as a new definition of "Mega Byte". The Compact Disk for example was always advertised as "700MB" while the capacity itself is binary but the unit is decimal, since the capacity really was 700 MiB. The USB Flash Drive, like the HDD is and was always labeled in decimal. A 64 GB USB Stick is always 64,000,000,000 Byte. As you can see, historically speaking there was always a huge mess when it comes to properly distinguishing between the decimal and binary versions and right after people complain that they feel misguided by HDD manufacturers, I can't really understand the criticism towards the binary Byte, since if it was properly taught 20 years ago, there wouldn't be a whole generation struggling with understanding this mess. HDD manufacturers do everything right, they don't falsely label Tera Bytes as Tebi Bytes to inflate the advertised capacity, nor do they create their own crazy mixed up system to sell less capacity than advertised. Again, it's not the job of the HDD manufacturers to educate 16 year old's whose IT knowledge is based on 7 Linus Tech Tips videos. That's exactly why I always criticize people who claim "Even 7 year old's can build computers". Yes, they can copy your hand movements while holding a screw driver, but they don't understand what the f*** they're doing there and this constant capacity-discussions alone prove me in that point.

@@Music-bf3vn While in general I agree with the thrust of the argument that TB vs TiB is needlessly confusing, the statement that "no OS measures in TB" is simply false and shouldn't be part of the argument. Everything made by the Apple operates in base-10 (1000 bytes per KB) rather than base-2 (1024 bytes per KB). Feel free to look it up support.apple.com/en-us/HT201402

It’s like a completely different person.

I miss teenage Linus. Manus isn't as friendly.

Money back

So, it's SMR :)

benny blanco yeah I ended up looking up the model number on forums, and it was indeed SMR

I just thought of this ("just" as-in "2 seconds ago"): [The acronym] "SMR" should stand for "Shitty-Method Recording".

Isn't that like every management ever? They never listen to their staff and then blame everyone for their mistakes

Joe Al pretty sure upper management isn’t Indian buddy

That was my assumption as to what the topic of this video was going to be.

Something like this xd www.hddzone.com/blog/images/WD8088AADS.jpg

Holy shit, did these drives really existed?

this is windows fault they use the wrong Unit of measurement

Imagine a world where people actually know the difference between binary and decimal SI units. Oh wait, you can't!

Wd blues aren't affected afaik and you probably wouldn't notice for your use cases anyways

@@smurfendrek4791 Wrong. WD Blue has plenty of SMR drives.

@@smurfendrek4791 WD20EZAZ is affected

3 without replacement usually means by by data :( that sucks man

Shut your mouth bro I have WD at my house in my PC and Xbox

TOX1C L3M0N not for long...

@@xenolemon7261 Lol the typical "I don't have a problem therefore no one does" attitude

@@xenolemon7261 haha PC and Xbox, wow such high performance devices. (poe's law) Slow down over there dude, wouldn't want your toaster to lose all it's data when you drop it into a bathtub.

I don’t think you know what it is, it’s much more network focused than task manager, and has far better visualization options. Before people whoosh me, yes I get that this is a joke but it isn’t funny or original

@@signalworks + Task manager hides/shadows windows related tasks. I was surprised when windows setup was downloading updates yet task manager said 0% network usage from installer and no other program was listed that used network but my network card/switch activity LED was blinking like hell.

When your comment section are just smart boomers

@@paolovincedelgado559 What an oxymoron you have there... Impressive.

8:32

I don't think the breakdown was selling unlabelled SMR drives. There's tonnes of technology in the drives that isn't disclosed, and it isn't a big deal. The problem was that they sold this technology in NAS-drives.

Theres an awful lot of Stockholm Syndrome going on. That or a hell of a lot of postings vehemently supporting HDD companies from accounts which have never posted before You might think its astroturfing. I cant possibly comment on what you might think

Whoever thought of "shingles" in a drive should be shot.

@@encycl07pedia- Point Blank in the chest with a shotgun

*segue

But before I tell you my job let’s Segway into our sponsor

*tweezers

Mostly it's because he's a combination of Jeremy Clarkson and Tim (the tool man) Taylor Every so often he does something serious though - like this one.

Why?

@@ricko13 One of Linus's eyes looks red.

You are joking right? How old is she?

actually if I remember correctly, 3 years older. Linus was born in 86 and Justine was born in 83

@@daoquang900 wow she looks 20

You'd think shed be 2000 years older, that's how much I age every time I try to do anything on an cRapple device!

Justine has been looking like she's in her late 30's since 2009

Quick and dirty money works for software but not for hardware. Ergo compare Microsoft and WD

Yep, this is the kind of crap that happens when Manglement gets involved and starts making bad decisions

@@kingneutron1 Manglement 😂 love it!

Stocks on sale

You should have felt that in April. In Germany the website computerbase.de reported on this issue on 15th April 2020. Don't know why it took LMG so long to make a video about this... www.computerbase.de/2020-04/wd-red-festplatten-smr-ohne-kennzeichnung/

You should be fine with Seagate; only the 'desktop/compute' models may be using SMR (and should be cross-referenced before purchase), the IronWolf drives are strictly CMR.

That is just the extra space needed to have the filesystems data table.

Nope, it does not have 931 gigabytes. It has 1000 gigabytes, which is the same as 931 gibibytes.

@@glibberglobber9358 It was a joke, but I appreciate the explanation very much.

@@Max24871 $0.99 = $1.00 ?

Nah you bought a 1000000000000 bytes drive, so base 10. But your pc counts in 1024. KiB, MiB, Gib,...

And showed 8tb m.2 ssd few days before

I cannot fucking believe this got 75 likes in 20 minutes when there's literally no setup punchline or even joke ...man, what has youtube becomd

@@pravda9646 A source of idiots and geniuses depending on who or what you watch

@@pravda9646 It's 2020 youtube, what do you expect, funny jokes?

@@mercian9425 Fair enough

Throw in Steven Rourke from Gamers Nexus, and you have an unbeatable newscrew.

LMG needs a deep dive tech channel for Linux and servers, they have many talented people there who could do such things, like Anthony. Kind of like Level1Techs

@@joonglegamer9898 what would you do with the old screw? Ayooo

@@JackSQL Find the nut!

They knew, no question. WD is not stupid, they just thought they could get away with it.

@@Ben.N Cynical but certainly not unlikely. It wouldn't be the first time a tech company has acted like an asshole for money.

@@Ben.N especially considering tech venders usually throw as much specs into the title and description as possible the idea of a new added technology not being the main selling point (whether it actually is good or not is irrelevant, tis new) is unbelievable. Edit: through -> throw

Additionally, SMR is defenitely an interesting new technology, but it is not a replacement for CMR. It allows higher capacities at a lower cost, at least some of these savings should be passed down to the consumer. Who even though these should be marketed as NAS drives, that is the one factor that makes me think it could be utter incompetence.

Nah,its just easy read/write CMR parts on the platter that are used as bigger (several Gbs) cache, no DRAM ( Yes,some but thats the usual thing).

Reading is not really the issue with them, which is why they're good enough for archive purposes, is read much more than you will write, sustained writing will cause potential slow downs at best, data loss at worst with raid.

Tech Norris

*Frolic/Curb your Enthusiasm plays in the background*

I too dodged a bullet accidentally. I was about to buy WD40EFAX but then saw the article and bought EFRX.