Why Are People So Mad About the New Spelljammer Book? 

I'm afraid the point was missed a bit. I'm someone who pretty much started with 5e. I am also not among the people who are complaining about the book just about everywhere they can. But I can tell what the problem is. WotC wants to make 5e simple, which is fine. But maybe they are making it too simple? Or rather, leaving for us to make the rules that are harder to design? *There is a textbox that literally says that a PCs weapons and spells often work better than the ship's weapons.* It makes me question, did they just figure the game design for the ship's weapons was bad but didn't have the resources to make it viable? Now it is up to me to do spend hours and hours across a whole month to try to figure out how to make them at least worth using? As a game designer myself, I can't help but feel there is an issue with the current direction WotC is taking with D&D. What is the worth of the official books? Shouldn't it be something made by a team of designers that know the game inside out? People that would be able to design mechanics better than we ever could? Or that the very least, design them so we don't have to spend hours and hours over a month or two designing the mechanics ourselves? Personally, I think the reason people are getting mad at the latest releases is that, and you might disagree with me on this, the books are getting simpler, but the pricing stays the same. Then we either have to make do with what we got or we spend many hours trying to get to the point we hoped we would have gotten from that price. *Basically, it's getting harder to justify buying the official books when so much of the legwork we end up doing ourselves or by buying books from other sources.* Now I'm off to go back to trying to figure out how to make ship to ship battles actually fun rather than it being about just trying to board the enemy ship like the official book suggests is the best option.

I was most disappointed in the lack of new spells, magic items, feats, and sub classes. It’s such a huge alien campaign setting and we don’t have new material in the book to spice up the classes.

I don’t think it’s fair to say that “5e is always simple, what did you expect?” Hell, Descent into Avernus is just an adventure and isn’t primarily focused on vehicles and it still had like 5 pages of rules on driving Infernal War Machines in combat. So, yeah, I would expect a setting focused on spaceships in a game focused on combat to have rules for spaceship combat that make it worth doing.

I think what most people that where upset about spell jammer 5e was that they wanted ship to ship combat. The box text basically just says to not focus on ship to ship combat which is what many people wanted out of a game that focuses on ships.

You are absolutely right in that D&D, as a system, is NOT about cumbersome ship vs ship battles and is more suited for engaging in toe to toe boarding combat. So let's look at what the book offers for that type of gameplay. For character options, the Astral Adventurer's Guide gives you 6 new races, 2 backgrounds, 3 magic items, and 2 spells; one of which exists for the sole purpose of creating one of the aforementioned magic items...and that's it. NO new character classes or class archetypes. NO new weapons or firearms (which feels weird when you consider one of the new races is all about using firearms). NO new general equipment, NO magical item upgrades for Spelljamming ships, etc. Other content creators aren't only complaining about the lack of a detailed ship to ship combat system. It's the lack of overall content and character options for DMs and players alike. Let's look at the 'section' for Creating a Wildspace System. It's on page 20. A meager three sentence paragraph which says 'A typical Wildspace system has a sun plus a number of planets and moons orbiting it. Two examples of Wildspace systems are described in the accompanying adventure handbook. Use them as models when creating your own Wildspace system.' That's it in its entirety. No randomized generation tables, no list of example anomalies or features of interest one could encounter in Wildspace, there's literally nothing. Any DM worth their salt regularly makes up this sort of stuff on their own but having official material to work with as a baseline makes it a LOT easier, and it gives players and DMs alike a mutual understanding of what sort of things they might encounter during gameplay. You can't fault people for being unhappy when a sourcebook they paid money for tells them 'do it yourself.' Lastly, the book is VERY short. It's 64 pages long and about half of that is art. Which is nice. I LIKE when a book has a lot of art. It's a good source of inspiration. But it feels like so much has been cut from this book both in terms of content AND production value. Let's look at one of the pages you presented in your video. Page 25. It talks about crashing and the cost of ship repairs, and when you turn the page it goes right into stats and layouts for different types of Spelljamming ships with NO introduction or splash page. I flipped back because I thought two pages had to have gotten stuck together or something, but no. It goes from page 25 to 26. And that's not the only time I had that feeling while reading this book. It feels rushed. Incomplete. And there's nothing wrong with warning others when a product might not contain everything a potential buyer might be looking for.

Yo, as a DM who does a good chunk of homebrew I understand and agree with your sentiment to a point. Not every scenario is going to be covered by the rules and that is fine. There will be gaps. But the two examples you bring up regularly in this video is 5e vs AD&D. The problem with the spell jammer book is that it doesn't even live up to the 5e rules precedent set by itself. There is a HUGE middle ground between 1 and half pages vs 20 pages that would have been more in line with previous 5e rule sets. As far as the narrative experience goes, the rules, in my opinion, are there to facilitate the story but the rules can only do that if they are comprehensive enough and FUN enough. In ship to ship combat we could at least have rules that allow the players to actually DO things. Just being told what is happening with nothing for the player to do (literally if you are manning a mangonel cause you are a barbarian and have no decent ranged options you are essentially doing nothing) isn't fun or exciting either. Spell Jammer wasn't a complete wash, far from it, but it failed terribly on the ship combat front, which is a HUGE portion of Spell Jammer. It's one thing to add mechanics to a system to make it robust, it's another to offer mechanics that are nearly non-existent and honestly bad on their own and force me as a DM to completely re-write them. I don't need everything spelled out, every rule to be crunchy or complicated, but I would like, if WotC is going to play at selling us rules (which is literally the point of D&D as a game system) then there should be actual rules provided in the product. I mean you are right that I don't need any of the source books to make a story, taking that to inth degree, then what do I need any of the books for? What we got in the spelljammer book is far far too close to that line.

Spelljammer is too simple, when 5e rules are simplified enough as it is. The guidance in this book is too vague. Why does one need to buy it again?

I think there is a middle ground between 1,5 pages and 20 pages long. I dont think no one is asking for the level of detail that Advanced dungeons and dragons had, but I think 5e spelljaming rules are lacking and it shows. If the rules are "avoid ship-to-ship combat and just move on to boarding" then something is very, very wrong.

The problems isn't that the rules are simple - it's that they don't make sense. 'Long range distance is X' is simple, and I like it. BUT 500ft is a dumb when movement is rarely above 50ft and the book states (paraphrase) 'you should just have fights on board a ship.' If fights should mostly be hand2hand, it means the writers conceded that they couldn't make ship2ship fun enough. By making ship2ship so far away for long distance it means that fights will either never be long distance (always within 500ft) or when they are, they will take forever because damage from ships is low and hp for sails is high. And Air Bubble is a nearly useless spell entirely based on GM discretion. The spell creates a bubble of fresh air. If a player ends up in a larger air envelope - even if that air envope isn't fresh air - "their air envelopes merge, and the quality of the air around the smaller body changes to match that of the larger body." So the spell is only helpful in full wildspace. On a derelict with foul air? Air Bubble won't help RAW. But all that is secondary. You can handwave that with house rules and we honestly had half this stuff since GoS anyways. You know what new GMs need really help with? Inspiration and Encounters. There is very little (not zero, just little) in the way of space hazards, encounters, and ideas to inspire new GMs who read this book. How do I make a system? Oh, uhh... make a sun... and some planets... and you're done. Go to this other book for an example. Nothing about asteroid belts, denizens, no charts or tables or walk through process, just 'here's a system in another book.' You called it smaller than the AD&D one. It's also smaller than all of the 5E ones. Had they spent 20 more pages on inspiring GMs in the Adventurers Guids (honestly, I could have done without half the player options and I'm a PLAYER predominantly - we already have 100 races and the two spells sucked as previously mentioned), 20 more on monsters (and displayed them prominently in the Adventurers Guide (they did good in the adventure at least), and 20 more pages in the adventure to shore up an epilogue. 60 more pages overall still puts it square in the middle of page count with all the other books. Instead they put out a poor product. The page count alone tells you it was rushed. The lack of thought in areas that needed it most (system creation) shows they don't care about the people they claim to. They had a deadline, and they were going to hit it no matter what.

I think it is a bit silly to compare the AD&D rules to the page and a half presented and pretend those are the only two options. I think it is totally fair for people to want something a bit more robust without it being cumbersome. This would be a bit like if they skimmed the next player manual rules set to 5 pages and you then told people that they are being ridiculous for being upset that they spend $60 dollars on it because the design is deliberately simple.

At around 10 mins you point out "if you wanted to play in spelljammer/eberron you didnt need this or that book you just create it yourself" thats true. which pertains to what im saying next, if you want to not figure it out yourself but be a DM and just have to tweek it here and there then thats what the official books are for. GoSM and ebberon and avernus and strahd and all these books do that, they give you something to work with in 5e and you can tweek it as a DM. spell jammer does not do this, i have to make it up myself so its the first time i was like "i didnt need to buy this book, it doesn't have enough rules value to tweek". everything in this book is already in the game as far as i can see? hey heres a spell jamming helm costs 5k use it to move your ship thats it no cool gameplay for ship combat. Im creating a one shot and my player asked what he could do as a spell jammer all i could tell them was drive? nothing else and the spell jamming helm does the driving for you 90% of the time. nothing special there. what can anyone else do on the ship? nothing but man a siege weapon? captain? optional and no gameplay, crew? optional and no gameplay. for spell jammer its got no gameplay that makes it spell jammer..... just cool themed battle maps. I want cool themed spell jammer mechanics, which i have to make myself. I feel this did not give me cool spell jammer feeling in space. thats the difference, they didnt try to give us spell jammer cool things in D&D they just said heres a coat of paint. Salt marsh did, ebberon did and avernus did, it had to be tweeked but thats ok i payed for something to tweek not to create my own from scratch.

Here's the thing, man. I've been playing D&D for 20ish years, and when I buy a book, I expect it to be one of two things. Either it's going to be character options, items, subclasses and alternate mechanics to enhance my game, or it's going to be lore/setting heavy, and provide a lot of inspiration and material in that regard. Sometimes we get a mix of both, and it's great. This is the first time I've felt like I got neither. It took the ship combat and space travel and said "Hey your DM can decide all that stuff" and then turned around and did the same thing about the entire setting. I was able to glean basically the entire mechanics and lore from a couple of 5 minute promo videos they put out, and that sucks.

In Role terms I am so dissapointed in the fact that they eliminated the phlogiston and they cut and paste the whole astral plane?! Now is confusing because they said that the astral sea and the astral plane are literaly the same but not exactly? Idk, now creating low content with a huge lack of effort camouflaging it as a way to make the game more accessible, Is a low blow of Wotc.

They decided that boarding action play would be more fun, but utterly failed to provide a maneuvering mechanic to allow play to proceed to a simple boarding action instead of a long boring pursuit. That is the kind of half-assed game design that people are rightly complaining about.

Part of my issue personally is the lack of lore and other information that would allow me to build a campighn. Sure I can just make it up myself but than why would I pay a dime to wizards than if I'm doing all the work. The fact that it's 70 dollars for about half the page count of a 60 dollar book doesn't help.

Consider two scenarios... 1) Your party is on a Lamprey ship and you encounter pirates on a Hammerhead ship. Say the DM decides they are at 1000 feet beyond the range of weapons on either ship. The pirates decide to close toward you to attack. You decide to outrun them. You're now at a stalemate. Since both ships travel at the same speed (35 feet per turn) and the skill of your Spelljammer doesn't matter, it is impossible to close to weapons range. Also since you're less than a mile apart, neither ship can enter Spelljamming speed. So essentially you have no option but to close with them and fight (even if you know you will lose) or keep going in a neverending chase until one of the crews starves or runs out of air. 2) You're navigating wildspace and encounter an asteroid field. Rules as written, you will automatically make it through. Again, if you have a novice spelljammer or one who has a century at the helm, it doesn't matter. Even if we know the odds of navigating an asteroid field are 3720 to 1, it doesn't matter because the spelljammer helm itself magically navigates through it for you. There's nothing amazing or epic feeling about that. Do we need 2e style rules for navigation and combat? No, certainly as you point out not in this age of D&D. But I do think they went a little too far with turning ship navigation and combat into "Move your flying dungeon close to the other flying dungeon and fight hand-to-hand as you do on the ground." A little more about developing the spelljammer skills would have helped make it feel a little better. Maybe even give them skills with rolls that can affect your ability to avoid environmental dangers, out maneuver the opponent, or give you an advantage in combat and it would have felt more like a space faring ship environment.

To sum it up. 5e has almost nothing dedicated to ship combat for a game which is predicated on ships.... 2e has tons of material dedicated to ship combat for a game which is predicated on ships and ship combat and movement. So, if you don't want to do ship combat in 2e, you don't have to use those rules, you can ignore them. But for 5e if you want to do ship combat...ln a game about ships.... you're pretty much fucked. TGP. you really need to think about what the suplement needs to do before you comment. I mean let's really think about this, If someone is playing spell jammer, they are going to be getting on a ship, and they're going to be traveling on that ship, likely being chased on that ship or chasing other ships. They're going to want to do ship to ship combat. They are going to expect that higher level characters that spelljam are going to do so BETTER FASTER STRONGER than than lower level characters. 2e Spelljammer gives them all this, 5e does not. Sure you might find ship combat boring (FOR YOU) and that's fine, but the game SHOULD cover everyone, not just you, so it should include people that might... I don't know... conceivably want to fight ship to ship battles, since that's sort of what spelljammer is about, ships. Soooo maybe you should look beyond your personal preferences, and ask yourself, is WOTC giving people their 80$ worth. I argue they have not. Spelljammer 2e Adventures in Space Boxed set was 18.,99 msrp at launch and you can get it in hard cover print on demand NOW for 26.96. So 50 dollars less than Spelljammer 5e boxed set (apples to apples comparison, hard back bound to hard back bound) So you get more than 100 pages more material, a better ship combat system, a more true to D&D (where player level matters) mechanic, with 2e. And even if you want to dismiss the ship combat, you still have an overall better product with more content... for 50$ less. which means you could buy 2e Spelljammer and ditch what you don't want to use, and the entire 2e phb, dmg, and monsterous compendium and still have money left over for more. Or you could buy more 2e Spelljammer content off DTRPG and have stuff like arcane space, tons of adventures, the legend of spelljammer and still have money left over. Wow, hard to choose.

"you didn't need this book to play spelljammer" I completely agree. But that's the issue I have with the book. If the half-baked random crap I can come up with is more fun and enjoyable for my table, then how can I look at the price I paid for the spelljammer book and NOT feel like I wasted my money? I expected a cool setting that has better mechanical ideas than what I can come up with. I just got the cool setting. And that's a shame, because my ideas are awful. More fun than what is in the book? For my group, yes. Fun in general? Eh not a lot, even for my table. Just adequate. Even if you don't mind the ship combat rules, you gotta admit that repairing the ship is a pain in the butt. Also, it's a bit weird that the book outright explicitly says that in ship combat, it's generally better to just use your normal weapons and skills. It steers players away from using the ship for anything other than transportation. That's probably the point, but it's a shame for those who wanted to give players a reason to care about their ship other than wanting to get somewhere.

I think people were expecting At Least the level of detail given to Sea-based Ship rules as presented in Ghosts of Salt Marsh.

Honestly what annoys me more than the somewhat lacking mechanics for ship to ship combat is the lack of good advice for designing systems or just tables to roll on for generating systems.

What they did was dumb it down so much that they turned Spelljamming into moving dungeons in space. The ship pilots itself, so you don't have to do anything. Ship weapons are slow to use and the range isn't great (even though you're in space), so just close and board the moving dungeon. A lot of rules are vague and/or non-existent. They wrote 5e Spelljamming for people they think are stupid so that they didn't have to put in any real effort and still charge the suckers full price. :( So you are better off buying the 2nd edition rules from DriveThruRPG and then pick and choose the rules you want to use instead of having to make things up out of thin air.

I would rather be provided with rules & mechanics & not use them, than not be provided and have to try to make them myself (with no idea if they will work well or not) or have to go and find alternate systems & shape them to fit the setting. I won't be playing with the same group every time, and sometimes having a more mechanics crunchy session can be refreshing even in a narrative focused group. If the books supplied a number of mechanics or optional rules that DMs could pick and choose from to make the most out of what works best for their game, it would be great... instead there seems to be a bare framework present which for a compendium that is supposed to encapsulate a whole new setting, with new forms of transport etc. isn't a good look.

I've heard this rhetoric dozens of times before, "Why did you need this book/setting/rules/etc to play the way you wanted?" and you want to know why people wait on this stuff? If 5e was trying to be "accessible" as so many claim, why are there no rules at all most of the time? Your GM/DM already has their hands full creating a world, playing the monsters and other NPCs, and arbitrating the rules and what's ultimately funny is the people defending the lack of most concrete rulings as "accessible". No! If I as a GM have to create the rules, from the ground up, to get ANY of this "system" to run at my table, why did I pay a single cent, let alone $40+ on "The Rules" if it all equates to "Well, if you don't like them, make your own." I didn't pay money to have someone tell me to do something I could have already done, I paid money to have, what I would have assumed, a great deal of the work done so I could get things off the ground without having to spend almost 10 years writing my own Game System to play with my friends. If half-assed rules are what accounts for "accessible" these days, guess I'm going to continue to NOT give Wizards any of my money after the "Core" 3 books since apparently, I've already spent too much as it is. Spelljammer was my hope that Wizards would at least have some kind of Ship-to-Ship Combat rules beyond Ghosts of Saltmarsh which is an ANTHOLOGY, FYI. A book of rules should include rules. If it is for the GM and not the players, that's fine. The DMG exists solely for that reason. But when a setting is published, and is smaller than every other setting to date, with less rules than even an Anthology has with regards to a mechanic important to that setting, that's a load of bull. I would assume this is why Wizards is going full digital with One D&D so when they decide to create lackluster rulesets and give people nothing, there's no cost to them to print it. They can just pretend there's more on the way and release it as Paid DLC at a later date. Funny how a Tabletop RPG is almost exactly like a Triple A Videogame Publisher for the amount of greedy, underhanded tactics they employ to drain their "loyal" fan's pockets dry.

The issue is. It has "Spelljammer" on top of the book. AD&D 2 Spelljammer had extensive ship-to-ship combat rules (with hexagonal mats and paper ship miniatures included), a decent amount of ship management material, unique monsters, and a 8-page-long random table chart for designing own Crystal Spheres (which could give you square planets, gas worlds with floating islands, and suns that are portals to Outer Planes). That IS what "Spelljammer" campaign setting is about. 5e Spelljammer has some monsters (mixed with inexplicable Dark Sun ones and stuff that really does not seem like anyone bothered to put any serious consideration into), but ships amount to set dressing, and no info on making the solar systems. Now. What did players want? Spelljammer as a campaign setting? Or Spelljammer as piece of flavour, for which you need to make material, all on your own, AFTER buying a glorified art book.

As a relatively new DM, having a loose framework of rules to fall back on consistently helps immensely. I don't want to have to hotfix a system into 5e, because I could just learn a new system if 5e isn't built for it. I play 5e, because it's what I know, and having the rules inside the system makes it easier to reliably adjudicate (which is my job at the table). I can't adjudicate rules consistently if the rules don't make sense, or lack details like when you can warp. I know you say it's the work that a DM should put in, that's my job. At the same time, if the rules are provided but incomplete or vague, that doesn't help me be consistent. I am planning so many things that it's already overwhelming. I enjoy being able to print out and point to official material that anyone in my D&D Beyond campaign can pull up on their phone to get specifics in between sessions or turns in combat. An extra page with more details would have gone a long way. As it stands, it's too vague in specific areas for a new DM to pick up and run effectively. I just heard a lot of people recommending the Wildjammer supplement just to see why. They include crew roles, but I'm not sure where it differs from Spelljammer or if they can be used in tandem to shore up the weaknesses in the official book. For context, I had no expectations or excitement for this release. I was interested, and considered using it, but it's not something that I'm itching to run. So my opinion is coming from the perspective of someone who lacked expectations, and still came up with unanswered questions that should've had answers in the book.

I never played EITHER system, but here's what you sound like: "I never went to a 3 star restaurant and had a 14 course meal. I come from the McDonalds system where you get rubberized sprinkle goo and have little toy prizes in your pop soda. Restaurants sound so boring and difficult"

The expectation the DM must make the systems. Homebrew it all, why even buy the books, as you point out. I thought I was going to get a rule system. Silly me, what was I thinking. I feel like a sucker for buying this. That won't happen again.

Part of it, I think, is that WotC has done the rules already but instead of being willing to reprint them and tweek them for space they left it vague. I don't own it, but Treantmonk did I think 2 videos on ship to ship combat from ghost of saltmarsh. A lot of those rules seem applicable hear. They could have reprinted most of those rules, accounting for air envelopes and gravity planes and the like and been fine. To some degree it seems you need to own that adventure book to have a meatier ship to ship combat system in spelljammer.

As someone very familiar with both 2e Spelljammer and 5e as a whole, I did not expect the robust 20 pages of combat rules. I was very disappointed however because I did expect some simplified version of it boiled down to 4-5 pages not the one page we got. Wildjammer is a good example of what a 5e Spelljammer book could’ve included while not having anywhere near the girth and crunch of its 2e model. Should a DM really expect to have to design their own ship combat system for a book they bought which really should’ve had a more robust (and possibly optional) set of rules that at least in some way reflected the product it’s updating? I’d say no. That’s awesome that you don’t mind putting in time to design your own game and not just expect the book you bought to have a decent enough system already in it. 1/3 of the combat rules are for crashing and you don’t recognize a problem with this? Lol Sure, the book gives you enough to do something with it. It doesn’t give you enough to do more. Yes, you don’t get it and that’s cool. It’s funny how you enjoyed rules for Star Wars and such but don’t think you’d enjoy them in this system. Also funny how you point at the rule for towing to discredit the rest of the rules. As I said, a good middle ground with maneuverability ratings, more than two common ship weapons, some crew/role specific actions and commands during combat and random tables for planet and system design all could’ve been squeezed into the book in just a few pages. Different styles of helms would’ve been nice or somewhat more logical movement speeds but I don’t need to overdo it. Nothing in their design philosophy showed that WotC wouldn’t give us a bit more rules to play with? Xanathar’s, Ghosts of Salt Marsh, Mythic Odysseys and even Decent into Avernus say otherwise.

Spelljammer Combat rules are a travesty - Combat on Ships, was a core mechanic and it was so abstracted they essentially told you NOT to do it and board each other and fight normally. Secondly, where is the participation of the players who are not piloting?

So since getting Spelljammer, I have been on a crazy creative high with making a campaign based off of it. I do not regret buying the product. BUT there is a a lot of wiggle room between AD&D spelljamming rules and what we got here, which was a major missed opportunity. They created a spaceship game, with spaceship weapons, and literally said “it’s best for PCs to ignore those and just use their own spells and weapons once in range”. If a DM or group wants even light detail in ship-to-ship action, they have to design one, which is something that the game designers should have done, or at least provided some guidance for. If the same level of guidance or rules had been given for personal combat in the PHB, it would have been unacceptable even if the reason was focusing on the narrative. So while I do enjoy this product, and while I do think that the people decrying it are obsessing over one negative in a setting book that has a lot of good, I 100% get why some buyers are upset.

Isn't the reason to watch a review to get information on the product so we can make a qualified dessision on if the product is for us? I think why people are underwelmed is that there is no real ship to ship combat and much reused content (monsters) from other books. At the moment most of us could flip through the book in a store and then make something better up on the fly. Thats not much for 50$.

I disagree. I've never played AD&D in my life, but was moderately excited about spelljammer. I'm not attached in any way to the old mechanics, but the new ones (more like lack of ones) is just disappointment. In my group when we want to play tactical combat oriented game, we usually go for D&D 5e. I don't actually believe 5e is narrative driven game. It gets pretty obvious when compared to the actual narrative games. I also disagree with the statement that I could play Spelljammer already even without new books. I mean yes, I could, but why should I buy those then? I like 5e, I want to play with the spirit of it. I don't want to come back to the 90s. But I also want to be prepared with good set of rules, when during an adventure there is a spaceship battle. It's cool! One of the best things about the setting. So why do I have to come with my own ideas about how to make it engaging, so my players aren't bored to death?

My problem with what you’re saying isn’t the truth behind it. It is the expectation we as consumers have based on previous setting books. When PIETY became a core mechanic they spelled it out. In Acq Inc, the party’s franchise level was a core mechanic and surprise, surprise… they spelled it out. Ravenloft’s Worlds of Dread were spelled out. In Spelljammer, a new core mechanic was introduced and they basically said… you get space travel but when you run into an encounter you don’t have it and ship to ship combat is complicated so… you won’t be able to run from it. You will most likely be boarded or will board another ship and at that point, it’s just another dungeon crawl so… let’s just skip to that. Let me put it a different way… If your DM wants you to run into an encounter while you are doing space travel, it will be a dungeon crawl and you won’t do ship to ship space combat. If you want that then use a different RPG system and not Spelljammer 5e. We as a company are so lazy we won’t even update our own systems or use Matt Mercer’s naval combat role system. WotC feels like it is being run by stockholders and not DMs as even the most recent bestiaries are reprints. When was the last time WotC and not a 3rd party like Critical Role has provided good adventuring content that doesn’t feel lazy, disconnected, rushed or half-assed? D&D felt at its core to be a combat simulator in an open world full of choices. 6E and it’s most recent predecessors feel like a whimsical tea party with hardly any stakes at all and the threat of death is a joke. Look at the release of Vecna, Feywild adventure book and this excuse of an update to bring Spelljammer into 5e. If this is the future of D&D, 6e and all of this then you aren’t wrong. I probably won’t continue playing it and other systems will attract me more. After seeing this, I’m worried for Dragonlance and honestly I am more hopeful and excited for the Paizo adventure to come to 5e - Abomination Vaults in March 2023.

So, I've played 5E but had no desire whatever to run it. When I heard they were actually going to have a Spelljammer setting I thought I might change my mind about that. Spelljammer was the ONE setting that I had players actually REQUEST that I run again. They really enjoyed it. I did too but I declined to run it again because I found it EXHAUSTING. All those rules that you say made your eyes glaze over and put you to sleep - THEY WEREN'T ENOUGH. That's right. They were WOEFULLY insufficient in development and execution and while I ran it I was pulling SO MUCH stuff out of my arse all while behind the scenes I'm desperately trying to plug gaping holes in the whole system from ships to the lore and everywhere in between. I believe what you're failing to appreciate is what you initially started to allude to talking about FFG's detailed rules for handling spaceships for their Star Wars games. OF COURSE they had so many rules for it because it's an important and large portion of the setting AND THE GENRE. Well the issue then is you're not understanding that Spelljammer IS THE SAME GENRE. Spelljammer needs lots of rules regarding ship combat and EVERYTHING TO DO WITH SHIPS because those ships are a MASSIVE and INTEGRAL portion of the setting. To give just 1.5 pages (and yes, you were being OVERLY generous, it really amounts to 1 page of actual rules once you remove the art) is incomprehensible and frankly inexcusable. It's the same as presenting a set of Star Trek or Star Wars rules and saying, "Here's an entire box set of rules... but ALL the ship-to-ship combat stuff you can just make up yourself. We can't be bothered." It's rather breathtaking really. Would you release a Pirates of the Caribbean game and only include 1 page of ship combat rules? Not unless the entirety of the rules for the setting were only 10 pages - even then the ship combat probably ought to be more like 3 or 4 pages worth of the overall rules. You say it's a truly unique setting and that's what they WANTED to release rather than just another generic Greyhawk-ish setting. But neither you or they seem to grasp what that MEANT in the original setting and for the re-take. Ships feature IN EVERY PART OF IT. ALL those headings you read from the 2nd Edition rules (which I can appreciate you not fully sorting out - even 2E is a huge and complicated system WITHOUT adapting rules for ships of some kind as an integral portion of the setting) are IMPORTANT because SHIP COMBAT is that important TO THE SETTING. You CANNOT just gloss over it and then be _surprised_ when people freak out at the complete WTF-ery of doing so. Long before 5E Spelljammer was known to be a thing I was advising people who wanted to try the original Spelljammer setting that they needed to approach the rules and the adventures more like they would Star Wars, Star Trek, Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, or any SCIENCE FICTION setting that prominently featured space travel and combat - because THAT IS THE CORE OF THE SPELLJAMMER SETTING - space travel and combat. My original hopes regarding 5E Spelljammer have certainly been dashed and even before I saw this video my interest in attempting to RUN a 5E Spelljammer campaign had all but faded. It's BARELY hanging on at all anymore and I honestly don't see how it might be salvaged. I'd say maybe a 5% chance at this point. If WotC were to get out a set of ship combat rules that at least equaled the INADEQUATE rules from 2E it would still only be a 50/50 chance I could be lured into making an attempt. On the other hand, if players were to ask me to run THE ORIGINAL Spelljammer setting - using 2E rules which I haven't TOUCHED in 20 years - I'd do it in heartbeat. They are successfully PUSHING ME AWAY from 5E. That is a really bad indicator of their marketing, design, and grasp of what made not just Spelljammer entertaining to play, but ANY setting they might try to re-ignite. WORSE - this is not even ORIGINAL material. It is revision and republication of original creativity done by others. It really makes me call into question if they've simply got nothing ACTUALLY original left to try (or willing to try) - just a grinder that slowly reprocesses past ideas again and again, because most of their customers weren't around to know how much BETTER the original material actually was...

5e was supposed to be a modular system, it is not but it was supposed to be. You would expect the setting on Spelljammer to have rules to make you feel like you are sailing through space. I am shocked they didn't have about 3 more pages to expand on the rules from Ghosts of Saltmarsh and explain how ship combat is different, instead we don't even get the depth of Saltmarsh. I think rolling charts or point adjustment to create your own unique Spelljammer would be 5 pages that should have been in the book. You don't want any Spelljammer you want your own. Some additional group checks and skill challenges for how Spelljammer deal with things and setting specific challenges would have been nice as well. These rules are not unique, special, or robust. They are even lacking compared to other 5E products. I see this book and say that I am better off with a book I previously bought.

Why do a space fantasy without actually providing much to do in actual space? Just do portals and jump from planet to planet. If you set d&d in space you need to actually do space combat, if you have ships in space they should have combat otherwise why bother with a space setting at all?

As someone Who first got into D&D through 5th edition, I can assure you I would not enjoy advanced D&D. I also would not want to buy this spell Jammer book. After all it literally tells you to skip space combats and just go straight to boarding. I get that writing down The rules for everything and making it a war game is one end of the extreme, but what wizard did with this spell Jammer book is the opposite end of that extreme. All they do is tell you that spell Jammers are now a thing and provide you with almost no support or structure on how to implement them. And while it's easy enough for me to make my own rules for spell jamming without spending a dime, it is asinine to assume that everybody else should just do the same. I was hoping that this book could provide me with inspiration, but I know it will not.

If there are rules, most players remember parts of them, but that gives a point of reference for those rules. Then we can choose to use them or not, or to modify them. Imo, give us the rules, and encourage players and DMs to pick up and drop rules more freely. I would rather ask my players if they want to use rule A, B, or C, than create rules A, B, and C, them ask them if they want to use them. I homebrew enough of my campaigns, npcs and PC options, I don't want to also homebrew rules.

What's crazy to me about stickers for the old rules is like, are you seriously telling me that the magic ship powered by someone's brain, firing magic guns, is legitimately neutered by like, simple facing and positioning rules like "sorry that gun can only fire due north!" You're out of your mind. It's space magic, in space, against magic space monsters. And again, you're flying a spaceship with a chair you practically plug your brain into. We don't need all those rules. We need engagement distances, flow of combat clarifers, and that's about it.

I agree with many of your points, but when people, myself included, complain that there's no ship to ship combat rules, what we should be saying is the rules are uninteresting and don't add anything dynamic or interesting to combat. If you put ballista on a wagon and had 2 groups ride at each other while on the ground, I'd basically be the same combat. Ghost of salt marsh had officer actions and added to combat, they could have at least updated those rules for space and reprinted them. They also stripped spelljamming of most of its flavor while keeping some vestigial mechanics. For instance, why does a spelljammer helm need to be attuned by a spellcaster? It no longer requires spell slots for anything, not even combat. Why is it even called spelljamming without the use of spells? The rules exist, they're just in impressive and boring.

I agree with the sentiments of many players, it is that they have decided to over simplify spelljammer to the point of, wait til an enemy is in range, ram the ship, and treat it like a dungeon or a bar brawl. What do you do til then, you wait, lol. Mage hand press made dark matter 5e, it doesn't 20 pages is easy to use the space combat rules but when I bought the book I knew that rules at least a framework to start from would be in the book. If you look at the spelljammer "rules" you can't even get away from an enemy ship because it's usually 1 ton or over and has its own gravity field. An expensive rulebook should at least have the rules or framework needed to handle ship combat at least in a minor way. And if you don't want to use them then you don't have too.

I agree with what you're saying but I think the disappointing thing with the rules is that it assumes you'd rather cast your spells than work as a team to crew a ship in battle - which may be the case but as you rightly pointed out we can already do that. It would have been nice to see a ToTM and detailed option presented.

Hello, new DM here. Spelljammer was my first book I picked up. Looked through it and it was not easy to figure out. It had quite a lot of information, sure, but none of it was fleshed out. It had half pages devoted to ship-to-ship combat. It didnt explain much regarding if ships can flee or field repairs or what happens when one ship starts running away since they both travel essentially the same speed. There were a lot of things I decided to make up to make sense. That was not very welcoming but after a year, I've got it mostly figured out. Through playtesting. Something this book feels like it had none of.

"Just homebrew it 4head" is incredibly disappointing when it's for a core element of the fantasy to many DMs/players. Better to have it and not need it etc.

I don’t care about ship combat, but as a DM I need: adventure structures, encounter ideas, world design guidance, factions and actors, inspiring sample NPCs, interesting artifacts and treasures, lots of monsters, environmental hazards, travel guidance… WotC seems to completely disregard giving DMs tools to actually RUN GAMES.

From what I am hearing the functionality of the ship and need for crew roles seems to be hurting the game mechanics. In marine ship battles the crew need to do things - the captain or first mate need to steer, the sails need to be raised or lowered, the anchor is another optional point for movement, guns need to be manned and loaded. It seems like spelljammer is just yeah the helm controls the ship. Now I could be wrong, I am still researching, but it seems like assigning more roles would allow for more role play opportunities as people have set things to do on board. Cooking, cleaning, maintaining, repairs, mending equipment, making rope, bard performances, even skill crafting could happen and be fun interaction points. And a DM could always bring a failed or skipped chore up to throw in as another obstacle; you forgot to load the cannons, you didn't make sure the rigging was set, etc. if they wanted to be more realistic. They don't have to be cruel about it or punishing, but it can add another element to game play. Some of the complaints I have been seeing are the lack of things to do while on a voyage, however a DM could definitely add these elements to make the game more exciting.

I feel as if the main letdown in the Spelljammer 5e books is that the price is not equivalent to the content and rules that you get in return. The SJ 5e books are great for a player but lacking for a DM. The majority of table groups will encounter and attempt crazy things that they don't have rules for. The Average DM does not have the time to homebrew something new between each session. That may sound lazy but WE have many more priorities before a hobby game. We buy the (hopefully) well tested rulebooks so we can have the same fun without the huge time investment. Otherwise, why buy any books at all...

I still think that it's way too little. Calling it an adventure in space and then I have to wing it all... I canceled my order and I'll pick up what I need on dnd beyond.

As a veteran, I can assure you that facing will generate a lot of tension real fast on a battlefield.

You’ve argued that the focus of dnd is now about accessibility and not rule, but you haven’t explained why that’s good for the game. Just because WotC has a design philosophy doesn’t mean it’s a good philosophy. Anyone can come up with ideas but what makes an artist is execution. The problem with all of the new DnD modules is that there’s little to no execution. It’s just “here are some cool ideas, you figure out the rules.” Anyone can do that, you don’t need to buy a book to get ideas. When a game has rules, you actually feel the satisfaction of victory when you overcome the challenge that’s presented, but when even the simplest aspects of the game are left to the DM’s discretion, nothing feels like a victory. When bringing in new players is more important that catering to the fan base you already have, the game stops being fun for the people who are actually passionate about it.

Anyone who’s written a report for school knows page count doesn’t matter. Word count and actual content does. Also one of my big issues is they didn’t cover chase scenes in the book. With the travel rules of just picking a random destination in space because stuff isn’t fixed in space means technically you can think of that ship I just fought and follow them. Since they describe everything as a cork floating in space it tracks that a ship could be tracked. Their example of location selection is the closest Githyanki fort. You never even have needed to be there to plot a course as a spelljammer. They really didn’t think this through as a product.

As someone who is minimally on the internet looking at people's complaints, but knows that some exist, I feel like what I hear the complaints addressing is not the rules as much as the amount of world that was developed to flesh out an entire campaign. One RU-vidr who I generally think has good takes compared it to the eberron book, saying that the eberron book had everything he needed to run a campaign with no other materials. The spell jammer books cost more money and leave you with little room to grow beyond the adventures without a GM putting in a lot of effort. But what do I know? I haven't actually read the books. I'm more commenting on what I see online, and it seems to not really focus on the amount of spell jamming mechanisms.

Oh I don't know they cold have taken the best parts of the design from ghosts of saltmarsh and combined it with ideas from decent into Avernus and allowed the pilot to spend spell slots to do cool things they could also have put some effort into making cool things pcs could do manning weapons stations or directing damage control or just coordinating the crew and buffing the whole team you know deliver on the ship to ship combat fanticy not just say lol board them. Plus another part of the fantasy wotc failed to deliver was ship customization which a lot of people want.

I understand your point of view of simplicity gives freedom to the DM, but generally the rules are there for game balance and the problem with not having enough rules in the book has nothing to do with whether you're playstyle is cinematic or your play style is simulation war table. The real crux of it is a player and DM often don't see eye to eye when it comes to interpretations of rules The rules are there to try to mitigate those in table arguments about balance versus reality. if I were to tell you as an example that the rules state if you float outside the air envelope you have one minute of air from a generated air envelope that is floating around you, but that generated an air envelope around you actually has much more than a minute's worth of air plus going foul much more time available about 145 minutes. this is physics versus game balance. and this is just an example of why the rules are rules so that gameplay can be smooth and balanced between players and GM if you just say willy nilly and cinematic storyline then you might as well not have dice at all and stand around and each tell a story. what you interpret as easy to find the rules by looking at certain sections some other player may interpret those differently and it becomes less fun as a group when players argue with players about how rules and conditions interact plus it makes it even more difficult on the DM if you have a player that is argumentative or rules lawyery. My disappointment in the book has to do with not the fact that it's a great world it's a great description but they really do need a more robust rule set that can be optional just so that balance of gameplay happens. just reading the rules as written in that book and that book alone, I can see several ways to exploit those rules to make it not fun for everyone but have an auto succeed situation in most combats. Plus with how fast those ships move and how helms work pirates have a severe advantage because as long as they have a fast ship no ship can ever get away from them. like I said I could debate each rule and each non-rule description and if flavor is meant to be a rule or flavor is meant to be flavor again it goes on interpretation and everyone has a different interpretation and that is what bogs down the game when the DM and player versus other player versus DM all disagree on interpretation. and I like the setting I just hate how rules light it is and I don't want to have to rebuild an entire set of rules from a previous edition in order to just make it balanced for all players and make sure all players have fun.

I wish they'd added more to the book. More than three magic items. More than two spells. More defined locations. A random-location generation table. There was such a huge amount of content that they could have pulled from 2nd edition that wasn't just clunky combat rules. They could've created a box set that was a better value for their players with very little effort. I think that part of the complaint is just that players feel they're getting ripped off due to the low page count and they're looking hard for what is missing.

wotc could "fix" this very easly. make a "tactical combat rules" pdf for free on D&D beyond and the wotc websight if you want the rules everyoen will have access to them if not forget about them and play as you have.

If Wizards is going to “remaster” a classic setting they need to show that setting respect instead of seeing it as a quarterly scheduled cash grab

My prominent complaint isn't with the ship-to-ship combat rules. It's with the lack of setting information. The (paraphrased) blurb "please look to our example Wildspaces to see how to make your own" was infuriating to see, given that the setting promises so much. I would have liked a page or two of procedures and tables for generating Wildspaces at the very least, and would have preferred a couple additional examples of known Wildspaces with descriptions and adventure hooks... You know... Exactly like the Doomspace and Xaryxispace descriptions we got? But you know... More of them. I realize that WotC may have omitted certain established settings so as to be more inclusive to the general audience, but they publish a bajillion products for the Forgotten Realms and they're about to publish one for Dragonlance so there's a couple Wildspaces right there that their fan base could have gotten excited about. They managed to give us Doomspace on a two-page spread, and I would have appreciated if they could maybe cut some of the, admittedly gorgeous, art pieces that are just the view of space and instead give us something that we can actually use to make our own adventurers. Instead we can run Light of Xaryxis out of the box and everything else we have to generate. "Adventure" in Space.

The idea that 5e is supposed to be accessible doesn't excuse the lack of rules, in fact I think it hurts the point. Having solid mechanical foundation could only help new dm's and players run adventures in the setting. As has been mentioned there is a large difference between 1.5 and 20 pages; moving more towards the middle of that range would only help accessibility. While I could theoretically homebrew anything, as a working adult I have issues with free time (think accessibility). I spend money on source books so I have ready-made, tested, and robust mechanics so I can readily jump into adventuring as quickly and easily as possible. These books just ain't worth it as they stand.

I just wish there would have been more ideas and rules suggestions on how to create wildspace systems. As well as example wildspace systems just like the original AD&D book. It would have added so much more.

I think the only way to settle this is to actually run a ship to ship combat based on the rules from the book. Run it, record it, post it here. My impression from reading the adventure is that ship combat is lame. I won't believe it's fun until I actually watch it

There is a huge degree of difference between the 20 pages of combat rules with maneuvering and ranges being set in stone and the complete abstraction of those systems in the 5E book. When you say the latter is boring I can understand that to a degree but I also imagine a scene like in the first pirates of the Caribbean movie where they’re desperately trying to find an advantage against the better cannons of the Pearl where they run it aground and then shoot from an advantageous position. I could very easily see a crew weaving through a debris field desperately trying to avoid a bombard’s cannons while trying run it aground or escape (or players chasing a villain trying to do the same) which just doesn’t work with the current edition of the rules as presented. Now adding those in is something that can be done by the DM but when the ships are the major selling point why isn’t that in the rules to start? Also I have issues with the way speed works between ships and the way the setting handles planets and the like which makes the rules around landing and the like laughably absurd and in DESPERATE need of house ruling. The game specifically states that ships in another objects gravity/air envelope can only use cruising speed and gives an example planet that is 5,000 miles in diameter with an air envelope that extends 5,000 miles off the surface. Say the party had to land there for an adventure and then has to take off again to get the McGuffin back to space then you’re looking at roughly 50 DAYS transit each way with the rules as presented which is almost laughably bad. Also the fact that spelljammers not moving at hyper speed are slower than most sailing ships feels pretty sloppy in that regard as well where it really seems like combat speeds should have been bumped up to a notable degree and that there should have been a crushing speed adjustment added in for atmospheric flight and the rules for planets should have had atmosphere by object size like a small planet may have 50 miles from the surface, a medium planet 100, and a large planet 200 which took me all of about 5 minutes to realize and house rule which makes me wonder how they didn’t catch that issue in their playtesting for the book. Overall it just feels like they slap dashed together some things and left too much to DM fiat to fix. I grew up on 2nd edition and there are ways that it abstracted details that 5th Ed doesn’t (movement and placement in particular) and it never felt more like a war game than a narrative experience and I accept that 5th edition is less nitty gritty with mechanics but if the setting shares its name with a vehicle within said setting then it’s probably important to the rules and could use a bit more consideration. It just feels like some important details were glossed over and the books only total up to around 200 pages where Eberron was around 300 and included more of the flavorful class and equipment options.

So buy our book $$$$ for our game system and make up the rules for all the rules that are not there. Yes, I am all for giving and encouraging the DM to make rules up for their table but at least give a framework. Right out the gate 5e was an incomplete game ( I am looking at you, no regular naval ship combat rules) and this clearly shows WOTC is all about options and bloat for the players an no support for the DM. It is a shame as many of the bare rules of 5e are elegant but every release after Xanathar’s had drive me away from this version of the game.

AD&D mechanics being cumbersome doesn't excuse WOTC skipping the mechanics altogether. It doesn't need to be wargaming, that's needlessly reductive.

I think that you missed the point of what people are complaining about. People weren't looking for a war game, but they were looking for more than 1/2 a page of rules. You very generously called it a page and a half. It's not a page and a half. This was a huge missed opportunity. Yes I can make up the rules, but I paid money so I wouldn't have to. Now I do. The rules for vehicles in BG - Decent into Avernus were better laid out and had more thought put into them. The ships and flying through space is what makes Spelljammer cool. Otherwise just teleport the players to a new location. What I was hoping for was more like a stripped down Players Handbook. The different ships being like different character classes. Having ways to advance them. As you advance them they get new powers and capabilities (similar to weapons and spells in the PHB). In combat, someone gets a critical hit on you, here's a mishap table of what could go wrong. You are doing a chase through Wild Space, here is a chase table of anomalies and occurrences that could happen. Here's a chase table for the Astral Plane. What they could have done is endless. Now I am going to have to do it all despite the fact that I paid money for this. At the end of the day this didn't feel like it was something that was created by someone that loved the idea of Spell Jammer. It felt like it was made by someone who saw it as a homework assignment that they didn't really want to do and gave a C effort. Don't get me wrong, the art and visual design were beautiful, I'm talking about the nuts and bolts of the book.

Honestly, a little of collum a little of collum b, does it need to be number and war-game crunchy to be fun no, but the fact that being able to pilot these ships IS what the setting is based around I would have liked it being at least a little closer to salt marsh than the generous 1.5 pages we got, even if it was just STR, DEX, CON scores for the 16 ships we did get which really wouldn't have taken up much additional space for situations where "the higher hp wins at tug of war". And the lack of internal consistency in the book for the sake of simplicity the book calls the movement of the ships slow and clumsy, but in combat they can spin around like it's on a lazy susan so all the weapons can be fired does feel like lazy hand-waving.

I'll probably go back to my 2E Spelljammer boxed set to fill in to the black hole-sized gap in the 5E Spelljammer rules.

There is a difference between simplifying a system (which the 2nd AD&D Spelljamming rules could've benefitted from) and dumbing down a system to the point of non-existence (which is what WotC ended up doing with the Spelljammer books). So for what was served and fleshed out (races mainly, and the adventures), yeah I'm enjoying it, but as a DM I am now having to go back and essentially rebuild the very fun and robust mechanics from 2nd AD&D into a 5E flavor of simplified while still keeping the meat of what made those mechanics fun and interesting. And it's not just ship combat that was treated this way. There were wonderful systems in 2nd AD&D for custom building your own ship, rapidly generating randomized solar systems (crystal spheres in 2nd AD&D), generating Spelljamming encounters for random events, there were a whole host of monsters from 2nd AD&D Spelljammer (like a dozen flavor of Beholders and how that impacted their societies in space) that just were not brought forward and there was SO much flavor about notable characters, sites, cultures, the gods (and other powerful beings) and how things worked in Wildspace and the Phlogiston in strange and interesting ways. All of that could've been lifted and simplified for 5E, but WotC just didn't want to put the work in to make that happen. They were banking on nostalgia and they did, but now they are getting backlash for it. For example I'm going to be REAL reluctant about pre-ordering Dragonlance now if they are just going to "mail it in" until OneD&D. And to be honest, if this level of dumbing down is the direction they are taking OneD&D, I'm very likely to bail ship and shift the system I play under to Pathfinder or something that still keeps some of that wargaming soul, while still being a good medium for telling epic tales.

I’ve literally been spending the last two years making a homebrew 5e setting inspired by OG Spelljammer. I really don’t care about the new book one way or another, I’ve spent two years handling most of that stuff and I’m not gonna throw that work down the drain. I’ll be honest in saying I have no idea what other people’s issue is with it, but not because the issue doesn’t exist, but because I’m approaching the game in MY way and they’re approaching it in THEY’RE way. I’ve got no skin in the game.

the comparison should be to ghosts of salt Marsh. This Spelljammer gave us floating dungeons not spaceships

I’d rather have too much info and too many things to think about because I can grasp it eventually during play. What I don’t want is too little information to the point the players find everything to do that’s not in the rules. Players will always want to do things that will make you search the rules to figure out how that idea works. To make my case, I still don’t know how to run chases. Im not the brightest DM, but I would prefer more information that tell me what can happen and various rules so I can not bore my players and hate chase moments.

The Slow down starts at what a 1,000’ out. Your speed ranges from 30 ‘ - 40’. That means if you are being Chased by the faster ship and you are running at max ( as it is unattached to normal movement methods for players) there’s only a 10’ gain per round. Let’s say minimum range for either to hit is a cool 500’ (just to speed things up between them )at disadvantage. So you won’t even be able to take pot shots for 50 rounds. With no effective way to avoid combat your next ( less boring) act you could take is head at them. Giving you a sweet 8 rounds before combat can even commence. Hope the faster ship isn’t full of warlocks that can push or pull . Then to reduce damage to your only method of survival you board! That’s when the real fun starts because, it was never there for the ship to ship. As lazy writing and gaming design was the only thing there for ship to ship.

With the title of the campaign setting being “Spelljammer”, I was expecting some sort of ship combat mechanics and it is shockingly absent. As a DM, I’d rather have 20 pages I could choose to ignore regarding ship combat. If my players want it to be simple, it’s much easier to ignore rules than to have to create them or transfer them from an older book. I paid for Spelljammer 5e, so it isn’t too much to ask to include basic ship mechanics for 5e. It’s convenient that their new sourcebook writing philosophy means less work and money expended on their end

Having non existent rules, doesn't make it more accessible. If anything it just makes it so that people will avoid ship combat... In a space game?

in the original ad&d spelljammer ship movement was determined by the level of the helmsman, now what in 5e is determined by character level? proficiency bonus. thye could have used that for the speed of the ship. 2-6 movement points (or whatever) the other thing 2e spelljammer had was ship manuverability. it was a number (in 2e ir was a letter that represented a number) wotc could have added "MR: #" to the ship stat sheet and done. now you have speed and how it manuvers. combine that with what they gave us for ship weapons (the weapons ranges could be multiplied by 10. seige weapons had good range on them not to mention the fact that spelljammer takes place in space) and you have enough to run fun ship to ship combat. myself I am looking to convert the ship speed from the book and make a manuverability class out of it.

It's interesting. You pick on the "wargaming" aspect of the old spelljammer rules. However, I have found 3rd and and newer to be much more "wargamey" than AD&D was for normal combat. The high reliance of detailed movement for miniatures that was largely introduced in 3rd ed. always felt a lot more restrictive (and very slow) for combat than I ever experienced in AD&D, where every group I played with used miniatures for rough placement and went with what worked in the theatre of the mind over trying to measure it. You complain about facing and movement when it comes to ships but don't argue it in general combat in D&D? (edit modified 3.5 to 3rd ed for clarity - I largely regard them as the same).

QUESTION: Coming from someone who did play AD and D, I agree with you and that's how I played spell jammer long ago in the before time. I skipped a lot of rules and went more narrative. But I don't have the new books and I have a question about facing. What are the rules in 5th edition when it comes to sea combat? If I understood you in this video, Spell jammers can just turn on a dime? Dose size not come into question? Spell jammer was based on sea combat. The name spelled jammer actually comes from the sailing term "windjammer" .

I have a simple fix that'll work for most games with these ships regarding the boring tactical speeds. Have a separate grid for the ships that'll serve as the "tactical table." The scale is 100 feet per tile. Add a zero to ship movement speeds. Make sure every character has a ship weapon they can fire. Provide the pilot with a ship mounted staff with fire bolt, or some similar spell that receives a buff to its range at the dm's discretion. Now a ship with 70 movement becomes a ship with 700, thus on the scaled up table, it can move 7 tiles. I'd recommend tweaking all the weapon ranges as well to suit your tables play style. Now everyone can attack, and do other actions on the ship as needed as part of the turn order, using the ships battle map, and the pilot can move the ship around, and attack as well.

I'd argue that in the 'You don't need the book' part of your video that it has some flaws. One, some of us don't have all the old rulebooks so we don't have a reference. And two, making rules ourselves is all well and good but that's an additional workload heaped onto the DM, and it's having an adverse affect on DM'ing in 5th edition. It's better to just have as many rules fleshed out, built, and made dummyproof as possible so that if the DM needs rules they can get them. It takes the load off the DM and saves them from having to make things up themselves. I notice a disconnect though. You found everything you need? Great! But you were hopping all over the place. It's not well described or organized. They could do better for that.

Nope... If you pay 60$ for a book/books, you'll expect 60$ worth of content. This is the laziest attempt they've ever made, and i'm baffled that people still find excuses for them... Whats worse is that GoS and Avernus HAVE more in depth rules for their vehicles, but somehow, the Space vehicle rules could be hold on a SINGLE sheet of paper and it ain't an issue?... Whats worse is that it is SO blatant that they simlply took stuff from 2E Spelljammer books and threw away whatever they couldn't convert or was too much of an headache to do so (fuck the Ships interieur Maps ARE THE ONES FROM the 2E book, litteraly) And there's so much missing... -No crew/passengers rules/roles, apart from the Spelljammer helm-man -NO RULES about combat, ships no matter their size or tonnage can just do an 180* on a dime... -No upgrades or items specific to ships(outside the Helm), in a setting that had like 100's of spelljammer items... -ABSOLUTLY NO RULES for Systemes/Spheres building/generation, there's only 2 examples and a line that says "use these as examples" wich also could read as "now fuck off bozo" -No Space Hasards/environements table/events, Nor downtime activities... -The setting in itslef is an absolute VOID, with only the Rock of Bral described in details... And thats not even touching on the weird retcons, like the Astral Sea being IN the Material plane with everything in it actually, or that the Arcanes who had the monopoly of the Jammers Helms doesn't exist anymore(at least i din't see mentions of them, could be wrong) The Poorly designed new races, that are broken, even tho people told them that they where broken back in the UA release, and they did squat shit about it, wich does NOT bode well for the whole "We wants players feedback" for D&Done...

Honestly, I'm fine with what's there but I think it needed a little bit more. Maybe a few more siege weapon types for ships, some upgrades/ship gadgets to fix longer range combat stuff, a page of crew rules, a few more ship designs, a couple astral sea and wildspace encounter maps (even just generic ones) and a couple maps for some of the other encounters would of made this product way, way, way better. It didn't need much more, just a bit. Also the hadozee fix, which we just got.

I understand what you are saying, DND is moving towards narritive only play, but there are some of us who play the game half as narrative half as the game And we like the game, and we want the game to feel like a game, not the DM cobbling things together, we trust our dm to homebrew things in a fair and balanced way but as a player and a dm the fact that we dont have a neutral third party (wotc) to refer to means there will be more friction than needed. We like for our game to be a game, if the rules dont exist then our narrative cannot feel as connected to the game as it can. We want to have more involved ship combat, we want to work together on the vessel to fight off other invaders, We don't want to see "player characters are better off using their own weapons and abilities than using built in weapons." Not everyone wants boarding, boarding seems like a worst case scenario to some parties. Yes 5e is more rules light, but that doesnt mean no rules, the rules in spelljammer are this for ship to ship combat: 1. The ship can be moved equal to its speed without an action by the spelljammer. No reference to its actual manueverability, so it might as well just be as agile as a person? 2. Players on the ship should use their own ranged weapons and abilities and prepare to board when close. None of this is useful as the first one takes away the feeling of helming a ship, its just a moving platform. The second means the only ship based combat is pirate boarding, which is not what everyone wants, it's not what I want. At this point after buying this book, I am reconsidering ever buying more supplements they just don't offer anything that my players or I want. I bought strixhaven for Ideas on how to run a magical school in 5e And I got a brief suggestion for rivals and ideas on how to run npcs, and all classes and tests are condensed into one or two ability checks, with an optional tertiary check to study, it boiled the entire school life down to "figure it out". So this is the second time I've been burned by this. Im not asking for a ton of rules, Im asking for the rules light approach I was promised, as it stands as someone who has played 5e for about 6 years, 5e is getting closer and closer to no rules than rules light.

You ask why people are upset considering that the AD&D rules seem overy complex and doesn't seem fun to you, so why would people be upset that 5e Spelljammer doesn't just bring back the AD&D rules and goes rules-light instead (with less than 10% of the content by your page count)? I think this presents a false dichotomy. I didn't want either of those things. I look at Ghosts of Saltmarsh, which wasn't even a setting book, it was an adventure book (far more content than the mini adventure path in spelljammer), but in a single appendix I have rules for officers on ships with special actions, ways to upgrade my current ship, rules for travel at sea, combat at sea (which are far more robust), environments at sea, hazards at sea, mysterious islands, multiple underwater locations fully fleshed out, crew quality. This was the 5e treatment for a naval setting. It gave me everything I would need to DM or play in a naval setting campaign, in a single appendix of a non-setting book. I wasn't looking for AD&D rules for Spelljammer. Tell me about the various places I might travel, what the crew of an encountered ship might be, unique hazards we might enounter in wildspace, ways we might enhance or modify our spelljammer ship, various interesting environments we might encounter, and yes, a combat system for ships similar to what we got for naval combat but altered for space ship to ship combat. Instead I got some races, some stat blocks for ships, one sample location and almost nothing else. You talk about taking up real estate in the book, but it's a 64 page magazine with a hardcover marketed as a book. There was plenty of real estate available, and as far as I'm concerned, we had every reason to expect much more. It's insulting to me to pre-order a 5e setting book, and when it arrives, it offers a fraction of what I got in an appendix of another 5e product.

I don't mind that they leave some things for the dm but the fact is they couldn't take the time to flush out space combat in a sci Fi campaign setting that includes spaceships. Just seems a bit bullshit especially for what they charged for the books. I think a lot of us where hoping for updates to the ship combat in ghosts of salt marsh

I don't want more crunch, but I would like a few more suggestions for how they envision the setting to work. I haven't picked up the books yet, but from the reviews I've seen the speed of ships seems frustratingly vague, especially for how close you can get to something before it forces you to slow down. The free Spelljammer Academy adventure seems to imply that your ship can't fly past a couple of space eels without them disrupting the "warp drive" enough to force you to slow down and deal with them. The free adventure also has skill challenges to navigate your ship, but I haven't seen anyone mention that being a part of the rules in this book. I'm still going to pick it up eventually, and may even try to run the adventure, but it feels like I (a relatively inexperienced GM) will have some basic questions that will not be answered by this book.

You're the only RU-vidr I've seen that actually says pretty much what I've been thinking. I've been saying this on a lot of videos about the new Spelljammer books. I think the more rules in a book then the more restricting the game feels. People look for rules so that they know what to go off of but usually during games these rules are only there for when things get serious. The rest of the time rules change or are ignored based on the story that unfolds during play. If there was a huge book all about space fighting then I would probably never touch Spelljammer 5e. The idea of playing in space is bc space is cool and so much can happen that you can say "it's space". Fighting with ships should be simple. The story of what is in space should be the focus and thinking about if there is air or not air in space muddies everything and makes it too difficult. I also believe that Gary made this game and built on it with new editions from suggestions and ideas of people who were playing and homebrewing. D&D to it's core is a game with a foundation of rules but other than the rules it's all up to the players. It's a game that you want to do anything in yet a lot of people want rules. if there are too many rules then you cannot do anything you want. 5e is what D&D is supposed to be (to me). Less rules, less construction and more up to the people playing. It allows you to do anything without feeling like you are not playing D&D anymore. Without rules it wouldnt be fun either. Like playing cops and robbers. your friend keeps making things up and now the robber can fly and now the cop has telekinesis. It gets boring bc you can do anything without consequences and then you don't want to play cops and robbers anymore. No risks, no limitations. So it's good to have a foundation of rules that give you some limitations like whether this character can/can't fly or this one can/can't have telekinesis.

You find 'what position your ship is facing' and all the rules boring? Have you ever played DnD 5e? There are all sorts of rules about combat in DnD 5e: initiative, advantage/disadvantage, surprise, attacks of opportunity, cover, disengaging, prone condition, grappling, spell casting, reactions, bonus actions, movement, saves, KO, etc. The PHB has 10 pages devoted this combat, not including spell mechanics, abilities, feats, skills, etc, listed elsewhere in the book. Should we have just "made all that up" coz we're, I don't know, DMs? I expect 5e, a system, to have a, I don't know, SYSTEM.

I think what is missing is that the original ad&d 2e Spelljammer modules where designed to play on a hex grid map and therefore had more detailed combat rules. You needed to find facing and direction on a 3d space represented on a 2d play mat. I do agree with you that the simplification of the rules allows for more fun and engaging original gameplay moments. One of my main things with this rule set is there a range for weapons like ballista and cannon fire, where as in ad&d 2e it specifically states that there is a range, but if the shot misses then the projectile will continue on until acted upon by another force or strikes something. But this is something that is easily fixed and brought in under house rules. I would imagine that you could just use ship 2 ship combat form ocean faring ships but with 3 dimensions instead of being on a flat plane…

WOTC said they were going to experiment with new formats, and spelljammer is one of those experiments. Unfortunately, I think the triple-book-boxset format doesn't really work because all three books are too short. They should have been split up and sold separately, or combined as two books. I think their design format just left them with no room for crunch after they had to fit in everything else.

I don't think this guy actually understands what some of the people who were expecting more actually wanted. He goes off on some odd rule about towing saying that this is something that someone like me, who wanted more detail, would want in regards to understanding ship to ship combat. But that's not true. That's really being disrespectful to almost everyone else who just wanted a little more information as things begin to pan out through gameplay, such as chase scenes but, due to scale, go possibly go one for hours and will demand the DM make a judgment call that may not make sense. I, as a DM, have had to do this several times due to 5e rules breaking down. He also didn't include other issues that have come up such as the books literally not being compatible with themselves as Sly Flourish pointed out. This is a fail, sadly.

You said it a bunch. You don't get it. They had plenty of space to add everything they needed. They choose to make it a 60 page fluff book. Even if you put all 3 books together, it is still a laughably miniscule addition to the 5e library. I shouldn't have to pull out Star Wars or Starfinder to build a good system. I should have one for the money I shelled out 6 months in advance and feel legitimately short changed on.

Having played AD&D, it was often very complex and confusing, **so** confusing the DM would often just skim the info, then just wing it. It **was** based on war games. *TSR's* full name was *Tactical Studies Rules.* The amount of rules, some of them seemingly contradictory, were endless. When 3e came out there was a collective sigh of relief from the D&D players and DMs because **so much** was edited down to to be far more understandable and clear. When 3.5e came out, there was a huge jump in participation because the threshold was so much lower and it was far more easy to get into. Also, there is lots of info about ship-to-ship combat in the 5e DM guide and Saltmarsh that are **perfectly** adaptable to Spelljammer. Just use your imagination to fill in the gaps and make extrapolations. And if you hate it, fine, but plenty of people are having fun, so let them, will ya?

I am fine with simple rules. These are not simple rules, they are non-existent rules. Simple rules are: "Spelljammers operating a Spelljammer Helm can sense objects around them in wildspace/astralspace/normal space as they travel via the magic of the helm, unless the object is attempting to remain undetected. An entity can attempt to remain undetected in an effort to hide, sneak past, or close with another entity undetected by blending in with the background currents by succeeding at a Stealth(Dexterity) check versus the targets Passive Perception or Perception(Wisdom) if the target has reason to believe something is present; this roll is made at disadvantage if the target's hp is 1/2 or less the maximum hp of the sneaking entity and at advantage if the target's hp is x2 or more the maximum hp of the sneaking entity. A Spelljammer that detects another object can estimate the mass of the object (the GM should give a rough mass size based on an object's description and maximum hp) and if the object is moving. " Another: "An entity who has detected another object in wildspace/astralspace/normal space may as a move action choose to do one of the following three options: 1. decrease the distance to the object, 2. increase the distance to the object, or 3. maintain the distance to the object. Each of these is done by succeeding at a Space Vehicle (Intelligence) check for non-creatures or Athletic (Strength)/Acrobatics(Dexterity) check for creature; this roll is made at disadvantage if the target's move speed is x1.5 or more the move speed of the acting entity and at advantage if the target's move speed is 1/2 or less the move speed of the acting entity. The GM should let the acting entity automatically succeed without a check if the object is either unable to or chooses not to oppose this action." Possibly make this check require 5 move actions or only occur once every 30 secs in game. Possible GM discretion on frequency of the check. I chose a move action as Jammers will be sitting the helm not using it anyway effectively free like in the book or its a creature using its movement anyway. Last one: "If an entity has decreased the distance to an object enough that their air bubble will merge with the objects air bubble, the entity may as free action merge the air bubbles and gravity fields without negative effect by succeeding at a Space Vehicle (Intelligence) check for non-creatures or Athletic (Strength)/Acrobatics(Dexterity) check for creature; this roll is made at disadvantage if the target's hp is x2 or more the maximum hp of the merging entity and at advantage if the target's hp is 1/2 or less the maximum hp of the merging entity. A failed roll means that the entity attempting to merge the envelops is slammed by the sudden collision of atmospheres and gravity and takes bludgeoning damage equal to the 1d6 for every 50 hp of the target object to a minimum of 1d6; any crew on a crewed entity must make a Strength or Dexterity Save or take bludgeon damage equal to half that of their vessel and get knocked prone. The GM should let the acting entity automatically succeed without a check if the object is either unable to or chooses not to oppose this action as the entity can gradually merge the two air bubbles over 1 minute. The diameter of this new merged bubbles is increased to the sum of the combined sizes of the various merged bubbles, and the air quality of the entity with the smaller air bubble is increased or decreased by one step based on the air quality of the entity with the larger air bubble (two steps if the entity's air bubble is x2 or more the size). An entity may attempt to exit a merged air bubble by successfully increasing the distance to an object." I figured adding some risk to effectively initiating combat would be more exciting with some risk. In order to give them purpose, only siege weapons may be used prior to the merging of the air bubbles. Simple, very 5e, but actually gives players and GMs something to bite into. Once the air bubbles are merged, the GM uses standard combat rules and movement or adapts Salt Marsh.

Wait, so you're not familiar with ADND and you found the supplementary rules for (essentially) spaceships confusing? I would expect so? "That's called being a DM" - If people wanted a proper rules light system they'd be playing it, and not a TTRPG where the communities favourite books are all filled with mechanics. If we're making all this shit up ourselves then there's no need for WotC to sell us lorebooks, and especially no need for random dudes on youtube talking about the rules that don't exist.

So just using Astral Adventures, what does damage threshold do? You honestly wouldn't know because it's not explained. It doesn't even tell you where to find information on it. And that's kind of the problem. The books are too barebones. They don't even give you information that you directly need.

Yeah nah dude, this stuff is bad. I was hoping for space combat, for ships to fight and for players to be able to make choices in the operation of the ship, for players to have fun in this gamemode, or at the very least for space combat to be a 'variant gamemode' of the normal combat. Instead, we got "dont use ship weapons, players are better off not using ship weapons". We got "combat that occurs on a ship" rather than "ship combat". We have no maneuvers, nothing for players to do on the ship that some nameless NPC crewman isnt doing, no choices to make, no special fantastical stuff, we have two slowly moving platforms that are just moving low-damage artillery, slowly moving towards eachother as they fire their weapons, where the players just sit there and wait for the other ship to get close enough to board them so they can play again. Its functional, sure, but its not space combat, its the absolute barebones and stripped of all complexity, reduced to just normal d&d. And then i just question why i would buy this, if the fun spaceship-fight variant gamemode i'm looking for isnt in the spaceship-module. I'm just disapointed. The only thing potentially worthwile in this book is the art and the beastiary.

In my game the helmsman casts ship-to-ship offensive spells. Since 1 hull point equals 10 hit points, spells cast from the helm do ten times the damage. Now it's a fight between super space wizards, but with the AC and HP of their ships.

My biggest issue is something that they Did put in as opposed to what they Didn't. RAW:. A. A planetary atmosphere and gravity extend for a distance equal to the diameter of said planet (5000 mi planet equals 1500 mi bubble). B. When a ship enters a gravity bubble of something else, it drops to it's (Tactical) Speed. Ergo, most ships taking off from the example planet will take Well Over a Month to reach a point where they can go to Spelljamming speed! Where's the fun in that?

Brain crying and eyes bleeding was super common in the AD&D days.