Why are Processors Square (and Wafers Circular)?

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All this talk about how we make processors, and so many questions about why we deal with squares and circles. Here's a quick overview of the how and why.
0:00 Square and Circle, Bless the Wafer!
0:59 Wafer Size
1:48 How to make a wafer
2:52 Salami
3:45 Polishing a wafer
4:15 Photolithography
5:13 Thermals
5:41 Square Processors
6:24 Hexagons?
7:45 Channel Update
8:12 Cat Tax
Microchemicals: • Silicon Wafer Producti...
Silicon Ingot: www.flickr.com/photos/intelfr...
Spin Coating: • Photoresist Spin Coati...
Wafer Saws: • Fully Automatic Dicing...
AMD CES 2019 Keynote: • AMD CEO Lisa Su's 2019...
Intel CES 2021 Conference: • CES 2021: Intel News C...
All third-party content used in this video is under fair use as part of additional commentary.
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#techtechpotato #processor #wafer

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21 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 717

@phlipdupreez9831 3 года назад

I work at a company that makes Lithography tools, and the systems are designed to "print" square shapes... printing any other shape would require an extensive redesign of the projection optics

@joshwalker968 3 года назад

Exactly, retooling an entire fab's worth of tools to move from square to another shape would simply cost too much at this point. We're too far gone with square lol.

@calaphos 3 года назад

But arent optics generally round as well? My knowledge of optics is basically limited to camera lenses, so things might be quite different. Cameras also have the same problem, lenses are round but the sensors are square. I guess because Lithography systems can only print square sensors..

@maggiejetson7904 3 года назад

@@calaphos You will waste a lot of empty space in between circle but nothing in between rectangles.

@zalomalo 3 года назад

@@maggiejetson7904 but hexagonal is much better.

@maggiejetson7904 3 года назад

@@zalomalo Until you need to spend more machine time making them, which means money (machine time is the most expensive thing in the fab).

@Nightmare0021 3 года назад

As a Romanian (living in the US right now), I was very surprised to hear you talking about salami from Sibiu. Those are very good :). Thank you for the video!

@IvanOoze1990 3 года назад

I wonder if you know the Romanian woman who scammed me lol

@diavalus 3 года назад

@@IvanOoze1990 Don't worry, you'll find scammers everywhere. Their nation does not matter.

@ed9755 3 года назад

Go Romulans !

@asa_1479 3 года назад

Te salut frate roman

@firstdecade7703 3 года назад

"All these squares make a circle" "All these squares make a circle" "All these squares make a circle" "All these squares make a circle" - Wise man Popo

@TheBetabot 3 года назад

AND ONE OF THEM IS STILL GREEN!

@ffsForgerFortySeven.9154 3 года назад

@@TheBetabot AH HAH HAH HAH HARRRR "look's on with void eyes"

@kennethfreeman78 3 года назад

hay dont be square be round dude

@realxeltos 3 года назад

Okay, what's with him. Don't mind him. He just finished dropping entire gallon of acid. A literal gallon, out of a milk jug. Don't know where he got it from.

@realxeltos 3 года назад

@@TheBetabot its 'How does all these squares make a circle? And that one is still green'

@hoshm5496 3 года назад

So the upshot is, the extra cost of manufacturing far outweighs the cost of the wasted silicon 👍

@thoughtsofapeer 3 года назад

Yea, but its not even necessarily wasted as they can just melt it again I guess

@rogertruong6594 3 года назад

@@thoughtsofapeer sorta. in the material sense it can be reused, but Si thats gone through lithography is gonna be impure (since processing adds a bunch of dopants). youre bascially back to step one, MG Si which is a couple $/kg. then you gotta go through all the processing to get EG Si which is $50+/kg and whatever it costs to regrow the ingot, wafer it, and polish

@sirlesliechao 3 года назад

@@rogertruong6594 while photo and implant often feed each other, they are very different and separate processes. So just because you patterned the wafer, it doesn't mean you've doped it. Photo can feed implant, etch, etc.

@UniqueBreakfastTaco 3 года назад

@@sirlesliechao doping occurs on the base silicon, where the transistors are. the patterned layers are on top of that. i may be wrong for newer architectures, but implant in CU dual damascene precedes litho

@acmenipponair 3 года назад

Also: even when you couldn't use it for chips anymore... you can just make glass out of it. Glass don't need pure silicon, in fact, colored glass is silicon tampered with other materials...

@pseudounknow5559 3 года назад

The salami reference was the last thing i would have expected in this video xD

@samiraperi467 3 года назад

Salami Dave.

@brokeandtired 3 года назад

Because silicon is grown from a seed crystal (and is round) and a square CPU is a more efficient way to harvest silicon die area. A semi circular die would make an uneven die that would have irregular voltage and be difficult to design efficiently.

@peanutnutter1 3 года назад

Getting cat-taxed is unexpected.

@orkhepaj 3 года назад

yeah it should have been sausage reference

@christopherflack7629 3 года назад

Dutch Salami is the best I have ever tried. Never thought of Romanian Salami

@jecelassumpcaojr890 3 года назад

Crystals don't always have the same physical properties in all directions. Think of it as a little like the grain in wood. For some directions the wafer nearly splits itself while trying to cut at a different angle might cause it to crack.

@WarrenPostma 3 года назад

Is a grain direction observed in the alignment of the wafer, so that the photolithography process creates chips that line up along the one of the axis that will be later cut?

@jecelassumpcaojr890 3 года назад

@@WarrenPostma Yes, if you look for pictures of wafers you will see that many of them are not completely circular but have a small straight edge on one of the sides. This will allow the machines to align it properly. When you buy such wafers the specs will say that the alignment is "110" or something like that.

@Toobst8ker 3 года назад

The music at the opening with the wafer ROFL! as a FF Fan that was so hillarious

@CosmicPotato 3 года назад

Yeah haha legit made me chuckle

@johnroyvincent 3 месяца назад

I'm shooked HAHAHA

@countach27 3 года назад

Damn, you've gained over 50% new subscribers in the last two weeks, that's crazy! The videos are getting better also, I quite like the subtle humour you display from time to time.

@IvanOoze1990 3 года назад

This is the second video from you I've watched, I instantly subbed on the first one because I have seen nobody get into as much detail about topics. This is amazing.

@spitalul2bad 3 года назад

Romanian here too. Come to Sibiu, Ian. I'll serve as guide ;)

@TechTechPotato 3 года назад

I've already been once, it was great. Will go again, it's my wife's favourite place to visit.

@WarrenPostma 3 года назад

Romanian food for the win. Used to work with a team based out of Iași

@casperes0912 3 года назад

Oh My God That's the Hymn of The Fayth from Final Fantasy X! The best Final Fantasy of all time! Good taste, Doc

@alc5440 3 года назад

I was immediately like wait a minute.

@lobotomite3248 3 года назад

Epic

@PacificBird 3 года назад

Very good taste

@samspring8500 3 года назад

made me want to go replay the game

@deViant14 3 года назад

@@samspring8500 💯 I might actually do so. I never played the remaster through

@Dave0zz 3 года назад

That intro scene with the priest holding the wafer was soooo awesome. Couldn't stop laughing. I want it for my wallpaper.

@Scheeringa1 3 года назад

I 2nd that

@davek2977 3 года назад

Is it the prayer music from FFX?

@carlosc3260 3 года назад

Don't know how important this little detail is, but he's not just a priest, he is the Pope. The head of the Catholic church. I was raised Catholic, so upon seeing that and hearing the background chorus I had a canonical case of the lolz

@memespeech 3 года назад

christian processors

@versaleyang 3 года назад

@@davek2977 Yes it is, and to be specific it is the Hymn of Yunalesca.

@DKM-uy5kv 3 года назад

Can I just say that I've been a fan of your writing/work for as long as I've frequented Anandtech, its really good to know that you're as entertaining on video as you are as a writer, every video is very informative, well written as well as delivered well.

@rRefuseToSelfCensor 3 года назад

Ur videos are being promoted a lot of in the algorithm recently. Found ur channel a couple days ago and I wish I found it a year ago. I’m sure so many other people found this channel in the last few days and are now watching your back catalog. I plan on joining via patreon too. Just amazing content and I hope the subs keep blowing up. At this rate you could hit 100k by end of the month!

@XionEternum 3 года назад

My immediate thought once you got into how cutting hexagons would be challenging was, "Why not triangles then? Especially ones that can tile into hexagons." Then my mind went back to the lithography, and I realized the entire process would need designed from scratch, not just from a cutting perspective. It could work though, and a triangular process would add an interesting geometric facet to the engineering side of things... pun intended...

@maggiejetson7904 3 года назад

Hex need 3 axis to position vs 2 for rectangle, in addition to the rotation. Triangle would waste a lot of optical surface of the light source vs rectangle or hexagon.

@XionEternum 3 года назад

@@maggiejetson7904 To be fair, it would need to use a hexagonal print head but architecturally the chips would be triangular to maximize usable surface area. Three axis cuts wouldn't cost more than 50% more than the existing cuts, and be a nominal expense compared to the potential savings of being able to use more of the wafer. If the triangular chiplets can be interlocked edge-to-edge, then we could shape the die in all sorts of potentially more efficient ways. Even moreso if we also have interlocking squares of the same side-length. This will likely never happen as retooling the processes would cost billions.

@ronfair1202 3 года назад

The square was my first thought also till after a few videos explained the rational for the round but then the triangle came to mind and stacking the units like a pyramid . Just brain storming and wishful thinking I guess but like they say stop trying to reinvent the wheel .

@175griffin 3 года назад

The unit cell of a silicon crystal is cubic. Makes sense to cut along the lattice at 90° angles rather than against it at other angles.

@isaacgarcia8686 Год назад

but why fab them into circular wafers to begin with?

@175griffin Год назад

@@isaacgarcia8686 good question. The way they make these wafers starts by growing the crystal and pulling it into a cylindrical ingot. It naturally wants to take the shape of least perimeter, a circle. Then they slice it thin to make round wafers. So making any other shape would require material loss or at best an extra process. Edit: literally just watch the video, lol

@60DollarCodger 3 года назад

Because round tastes better? Another great mini-lesson. Thanks, Ian 👍

@Gragagrogog 3 года назад

I was not wondering this about "normal" processors, but about the "whole wafer" AI processor you showed earlier...

@TechTechPotato 3 года назад

There's also the optic pipeline in photo lithography. The tools are designed for rectangular chips. Anything else would require a redesign. That's also why the cutting gets involved in making it square.

@JeoshuaCollins 3 года назад

I'm just wondering why nobody has used small ingots and a wafer-scale chip. The ingots would be cheaper and there would be no actual cutting required, just slice it into wafers and print the chip.

@gas33z 3 года назад

@@JeoshuaCollins I thought that too, but it seems like the main reason is at this point "wafer waste" is one of the more insignificant issues to overcome with making chips and the cost to do something better is too large to justify.

@steveunderwood3683 3 года назад

@@JeoshuaCollins Most of the flaws in the wafer are near the edge. Small ingots have horrible defect problems, and the yield of good chips is poor. Once you get to 200mm wafers the nasty bits around the edge of the wafer become a reasonably small part of the total area, and yields can be very high. A high proportion of the bad die come from the periphery of the wafer, but they don't represent a massive percentage of the overall die. If you consider whole wafer products, like the Cerebus processors or an x-ray imaging sensor, they don't care about losing some wafer, as they cut a large working square or rectangle from it, because the bits they cut away won't be that great anyway.

@JeoshuaCollins 3 года назад

@@steveunderwood3683 Thanks, I hadn't considered the localization of most of the defects to the edge. It makes total sense now.

@Rubensteezy 3 года назад

Wow! Your channel is being PUSHED by the algorithm hard haha. Great content dude!

@korakys 3 года назад

It must be the new logo, lol

@erykczajkowski8226 3 года назад

I literally watched one random of your vids a few days ago wondering why are the wafers shown there round. I subbed for trial and the first vid that is served to me from your channel contains answer to this very question! Now That's something! :DDD thank you! :)

@TechTechPotato 3 года назад

It was the most asked question on my last two videos, so doing this was the obvious next step! :)

@erykczajkowski8226 3 года назад

@@TechTechPotato Haha, I guess I was not the only one curious. :) But still it was amusing. I guess I'll stay subbed then. ;) Even though this doesn't seem like an area of my interest somehow you seem to choose the very essence of what interesting can be said on the topic. Good job!

@spirit.canada Год назад

Thank you for much for this amazing videos, for years I wonder that, not really understanding the process - now it all make sense :)

@johnallanmiller7663 3 года назад

I would love a video about the difference between server and desktop processors. Good work on your channel! Love your enthusiasm and interest in the subject.

@mikeflagger7723 3 года назад

I'm glad people outside of Romania know about and enjoy the salami, it is indeed quite good, keep up the good work.

@jayare7750 3 года назад

I learned so much today! but I don't know what to do with any of this information! but it was entertaining none-of-the-less!

@juupajoo3591 3 года назад

Worked on the field in wafer fab and chip manufacturing. Nice to see quite well done vids here on YT.

@N1RKW 3 года назад

Thank you for taking a process that I had a basic understanding of and filling in the gaps for me! Good video!

@jamesdk5417 3 года назад

Thanks for the new knowledge. Always love it when you teach us new stuff.

@samueleaton873 3 года назад

You really got the salami lol, I didn't think you'd actually do it. Awesome!

@williamhart4896 3 года назад

So much information for just a button tap added your channel to my subscriptions on this day take care doc and keep it coming

@thenoble1 3 года назад

This was incredibly educational and easy to follow. Great vid!

@limitlesswave 3 года назад

As usual an excellent video, very interesting, revealing and brilliantly put across.

@Gretchen_Trouble 3 года назад

I have been wondering this for so long! Thank you for the excellent explanation.

@foulplay2 3 года назад

Just stumbled upon your channel. Love love love it.

@kayaogz 3 года назад

Computer scientist here, didn't know many of these details until now, thanks!

@johnshek8727 3 года назад

Yay new video, when a video drops it makes my day that much better because as of right now its shit, thanks Ian my guy and keep up the great work, I and welp im sure we of the channel appreciate it too :)

@isauromartineztamez3106 3 года назад

What's next? Pyramidal cases, triangular motherboards and hexagonal display ports?

@dano1307 3 года назад

We already have pyramid cases lol we arent far off!

@OmegaPhattyAcid 3 года назад

Congrats on the growth Ian

@nukedathlonman 3 года назад

Very interesting. I figured something along those lines, but never asked because it was a low priority informational question that I just never asked. 👍

@AngSu Год назад

I’m actually going for an interview for micro e company and this helps me a lot to revise the concept

@seeker4430 3 года назад

I love your videos. I would like to make a suggestion: most of this stuff is rocket science for most people so could make video with all the basics? also please consider including history of how the tech developed. You could make the basics videos comprehensive enough to include both a brief summary in the first half if people just want to know what is what quickly and little more detail with good depth for people who want more.

@TidusDX 3 года назад

I digg the FFX Song of the Faith. Unexpected but welcome.

@Kysen10 3 года назад

yea, completely random.

@Larwood. 3 года назад

hymn of the fayth

@versaleyang 3 года назад

Hymn of Yunalesca to be exact.

@maxmustsleep 3 года назад

superb video! thanks for the great explanation!

@wbwarren57 3 года назад

Nice thorough explanation. Thank you.

@frassefrazer 3 года назад

Another super interesting video. Keep going and hope you will reach millions of subscriber soon!!!

@deilusi 3 года назад

Feeling mutual, your channel is the best source of pure information with occasional purring.

@tomstech4390 3 года назад

Missus literally asked this the other day so I explained the full process crucible>ingot>chip etc and full wafer chips. She even said "why dont they cut them hexagonal, Then they would tile perfectly".... I found a good one :)

@moghwan 10 месяцев назад

liked subscribed because of the topic, and the channel name and the pope. great one!

@disiferedisifere8110 3 года назад

I assume there are already plans for something like this (maybe its already been done), but I would really love a video series that properly explains the end to end process of Chip making. I love the way you explain the the way things are done. Romanian salami (and cheese) are amazing.

@grizzly6699 3 года назад

Damn it Ian, showing that salami has made me hungry when I didn't notice I was... excuse me as I go look for some munchies... nom nom nom :)

@hariranormal5584 3 года назад

mmmmm yummyyyy

@jordanwharton5286 3 года назад

Thanks Doc! Very informative.

@FlorinArjocu 3 года назад

You convinced me with the Sibiu Salami, it is great!

@samedwards6683 2 года назад

Great, informative and entertaining video. Thanks. I wonder if any foundry has considered etching smaller chips on the "wastage" area?

@RodrigoMancillaPhoto 3 года назад

Outstanding as usual, thank you sir.

@korakys 3 года назад

Man I should have taken a screenshot when I subscribed (I think I was in the first 5000, maybe much fewer than that) so I'd able to dunk on people who came after 100,000 (or a million :o ). It really didn't seem like you were going to treat this as a serious endeavour in the beginning but it for sure does now.

@kienanvella 3 года назад

Hey, question because I haven't seen anything about this anywhere - are the silicon wafer fragments left over from the trimming recyclable into more wafers, and does any fab operator actually recycle their silicon wafer fragments?

@jeffyamaguth 3 года назад

It was awesome hearing Inori no uta in a video by Dr. Ian Cutress!

@rayhaanomar1200 3 года назад

That kitty at the end is very cute

@rodhester2166 3 года назад

I remember my step dad working at delco electronics in kokomo indiana, he ran what they called a glasser that put the layer on the wafers.. was really cool. That was way back in the 80s and 90s.

@CaedenV 3 года назад

ah, the FFX chant... time to play that again soon

@davapod 2 года назад

Thanks for your great explanation.

@renechawy 3 года назад

High quality content, a pleasure to be a subscriber

@hjc1935 3 года назад

How about triangles then. Triangle processors would look rad

@guisampaio2008 3 года назад

I think hexagon processors would make more sense.

@guisampaio2008 3 года назад

Wait he is adressing the hexagons on the part i am watching lemme see...

@guisampaio2008 3 года назад

I think they should go ahead and cut hexagons anyway and figure out the process, i mean we already are on top of a montain of complexity, better make it count.

@guisampaio2008 3 года назад

Also, it would be great for camera sensor to be hexagonal since it would gather light better.

@deltadom33 3 года назад

Could you make them small enough for chiplets

@mentalplayground 3 года назад

Super interesting video. Thank You

@markoconnell804 3 года назад

Thanks for explaining this. Simple answer is this circular shape is the easiest shape to manufacture at needed quality.

@FaisalAli-vq1eq 3 года назад

Learning so much here thank you so much !

@idustie4554 3 года назад

The face center cubic crystal structure of crystalline silicon also favors the square cuts and there is a notch on all wafers that define the orientation of the direction of the crystal unit. Just one of the many reasons to add why rectangular shaped chips are favored.

@IntuitiveLeap 3 года назад

I wonder if the cuttings that we called waste in the video can be collected and used to make further ingots from? Does anyone know? Do the other processes and cutting make these tailings unusable?

@siyuancheng9575 2 года назад

Crystal Clear, really appreciate it

@etmasikewo 3 года назад

CAT I'm really enjoying this kind of content. Also the wafer stuff is cool

@OllAxe 3 года назад

Related question, what's done with the excess in the corners? Is it melted and reused for future ingots and wafers or is it discarded?

@MarkRose1337 3 года назад

Always happy to hear how Ian's favourite cookies are baked :D 🍪

@KeviRun 3 года назад

Somewhere in the world, there is a Redditor that is disappointed that you chose salami over pepperoni in your analogy.

@vladomaimun 3 года назад

Yup, here I am

@morcogbr 3 года назад

And 100 Italians angry because you call pepperoni il salamino piccante

@satanlover134 3 года назад

I'm trying to get risc-v vs intel cores size comparison and figure out how mutch risk-V can fit on an intel chip but I cant find anything

@jamescrowther802 2 года назад

00:26 lost my composure! Papal blessing of the wafer, logged into youtube just to like and subscribe and probably share too 😆

@jihadjoe 3 года назад

Fascinating topic!

@takaokita4954 3 года назад

I knew most of this but, best cooking video ever made!!

@callawolf531 2 года назад

For some reason, it felt good hearing the Final Fantasy 10 music at the beginning. That soundtrack was amazing.

@garrettkajmowicz 3 года назад

Could they print a combination of chips to minimize waste? Large chips in the middle and smaller chips in the weird-shaped spaces around the edges?

@AdmV0rl0n 3 года назад

Great video. But just one piece that was missing. How do they salami slice up that ingot? Is it an extremely precise cut by very high end gear, or do they just shred it and then polish up later?

@nktslp3650 3 года назад

You got me subscribed with the pope thing. Good job !

@aviator2961 3 года назад

Thank you sir. Very informative. 😇

@yourboss255 Год назад

But what happens to the non-rectangular chips (cut out from edges of wafer) which come out of the circular wafers. Are they thrown away? If not then how they are being used & where?

@elikogol 3 года назад

🔥עליך ההסברים שלך מעולים ממליץ לכל מי שרוצה להרחיב קצת ידע

@TheDoubleBee 3 года назад

Would it be possible (economical?) to cut the wafers using a laser engraver/cutter instead of a circular saw like shown at 5:59? That would enable cutting it into all kinds of shapes.

@crazylocha2515 3 года назад

Well done. This also shows a bit more why the water crises in Taiwan is so important right now. Thanks

@Mmacrossfirekenai 3 года назад

Nicely done

@DNAReader 3 года назад

I will always think about Czochralski and wafers everytime I eat saucisson now. Should I make a competitive youtube channel called TechTechSaucisson ? The hexagon bit was interesting, but sadly probably only adapted for laser cuts. Chiplets may help the form factor stay relevant for long. Otherwise, how do you mix and match chiplets that look like puzzle pieces or hexagons ? The physical strain on the more exotic version would probably crack the dies anyway. Also better for heat dissipation, probably, etc.

@safdarsafdari7289 3 года назад

what if cut them by laser or synova's waterjet laser for hexagons?

@s1mple_minded 2 года назад

Great explanation

@spas579 3 года назад

Gotta say, wasn't expecting to hear hymn of the fayth in video like this!

@simply6162 3 года назад

What happens to the wasted part of the wafer can we recycle them ? Or something ?

@jawwi3 3 года назад

Hey, Ian. Would be awesome if you explored more topics related to chip manufacturing. Like why EUV is a big deal for reaching smaller process nodes, why Intel's 10nm and TSMC's 7nm are alike, and how we used to measure process shrink versus how we do now, etc.

@alistairblaire6001 3 года назад

The ingot process is pretty interesting. Reminds me of when people make bismuth crystals except without the pretty shapes.

@kasuha 3 года назад

What about triangular chips? You have edge-to-edge cut with them and you can organize them into hexagonal patterns, utilizing more of the wafer.

@mandrasaptakmandal636 3 года назад

How are processor designed? Is it in a Cad software where the engineers place each transistor in software or is there any software magic? or its just plain hard human work and wiring(in software) ?

@jamesdriscoll_tmp1515 3 года назад

Some parts of the process have trouble near the edge of the wafer. Exclusion zone defines the usable diameter. The rows and columns of printed reticles are optimized for die count. Partials are printed to maintain uniformity up to the edge. I had the privilege to sit in on meetings where this was determined for test chips at a development fab. Very interesting!

@NeoCyrus777 3 года назад

I've always wondered about this. Well, we're long overdue for a better method.

@solidreactor 3 года назад

Even if you would square (rectangle) cut the chips, could you design an architecture were you could salvage some of the edge chips anyway? Like making a 8 core designed cpu where half of the die is "outside" the wafer and turn that into a 4 core by salvaging the other half of the die that is on the wafer? Basically if you cut through the die that you still can use some of it that is left?

@ruxandy 3 года назад

Ha! I'm from Romania and the last thing I expected (particularly in a video about silicon wafers) was to hear you mention the Sibiu salami :-) Fun fact: I myself really, really, really don't like this salami.