Why Are Tzeentch Spawn So Weak? 

i mean nurgle have poison on everything so its kinda lost value

@@michalpiotrgorecki while that's true their use in a demons of chaos army or as allied troops means they can work nicely

nearly every unit in nurgle roster has poison tho

@@altromonte15 true dat Nurgle Spawns bring nothing to table - they are all super tanky and unbreakable to some extent (banished but wont fleet) - but in case of Tzeentch Spawn performs role noone else can at this tier and price tag.

Khorne spawn best spawn cause hit hard. Whack pink Slaanesh gitz good.

Just use a beast of nurgle. They have a regen trait and they are a single entity so u can heal them to max health unlike spawn who can lose entities in the battle

@@leoruiz3562 beast of nurgle is fantastic support too because of slime trail. I love using one in a heavy nurgle infantry army, then replace it with an unclean one later on (Ku'gath skill grants slime trail to normal unclean ones) to upgrade the mass, health, and add a backup caster. BUT I tend to run my nurgle armies with fleets of Plaguebearers (raw health, great for demons) or forsaken (Heavy armor, better speed, better for heavy ranged) and support them with Spawn for damage dealing. Like my armies tend to look like a horde of 10 exalted plaguies, 7 spawn, caster hero, lord, and slimer by the end of the game, give or take 2-3 spawn for 2-3 flies if I'm feeling spicy.

@@leoruiz3562 i think that beast of nurggle isn't that good, and they are not used for the same purpose. Spawns of Nurggle are devastating against regular infantry and the nurggle passiv makes them last even longer also against anti large t1-t3 infantry

@@rimmouz Single entity is my point. Spawn are not. Beast wins every time cus u can heal

True but the big thing for Nurgle's spawn is they are somewhat of a glass canon in an army of mostly stone walls.

Those spawns have real synergy with tons of units but with Tzeentch more than anyone else - tactics like sundering + warpflame from either spell or flamers attack net you -45 armor +11 fire damage taken and if you cast on them sword of Rhuin then you have insane damage output against target with -45 armor +31%damage taken from fire while being hit with fire attacks from spawns and/or horrors/flamers. Tzeentch spawn is better than Nurgle/ Khorne and Slaanesh by far especially that Slaanesh is bugged and doesnt actually have advertised sopoforic musk ability lol.

@@Mario-kf3ej Wait Slaaneshi Spawn are bugged? damn was hoping to try out N'kari sometime in the next week.

@@DamianBloodkil Yeah, and it's visible on their unit card even. Their tooltip says they have Soporific Musk but looking at their MA (where such things are noted) they don't. Very embarrassing.

@@DamianBloodkil I mean if you read description for unit like "armor piercing" etc there is listed same skill as Fiends of Slaanesh got aka -5melee /-5 defence which is substantial and actually makes them viable. However unlike Fiends or Nkari they neither have icon neither it actually works in combat (I did check as I was playing around with them). TLDR Slaanesh Spawns have 0 skills compared to all other units because devastating flanker on them is useless - too slow to flank and 99%of time you use spawns to actually tank in frontline not your squishy daemonettes . So yeah they are atm useless until fixed.

@@Khorothis oh god no. I loved using spawn/daemonettes as a low micro slaanesh stack... Hurts to see it's worse than advertised. aaaaaa

Tzeentch and Nurgle ones are the best

you can go even further if you want on top of -30 from sundering and -15 from warpflame ...your heroes and lords have access to lore of metal for up to -60 armor so yes you can strip 100% of armor from 90% units in this game with Tzeentch. And 10% which still will have some armor will have as much as pesants :D

100%, though I still scratch my head over what role Khorne spawn play in their army. Like at that point why not just use skull/bloodcrushers, or earlier still, fleshhounds?

@@dumbboyalex4396 that’s the same problem the beastmen have as well. Not really a reason to use spawn over minotaurs, or other units except for being unbreakable I guess

@@scarletcroc3821 yeah I just gave up and went full minotaur for my monster infantry. I think they made them as low tier monster infantry before you can actually afford the minotaurs.

@@scarletcroc3821 I mean they get regen from the tech tree and Horrible Regen from Morghur makes them more like a single entity (if only Beastmen had other heals)

Yeap, just like that, i try to use spawn of chaos because i really like the idea of a Spawns being the most violent thing ever made, but, for Beastmen, the minotaurs are not only the superior violent creature, they are also much more useful and can survive longer and they are just the cooler violent creature, minotaurs are not limited to one beastman lord, difference from chaos of spawn, who are almost only good on Morghur. I don't know if they improve them, but on foros and more expert players have say the same problem, they have very bad animations, some thing i never notice the animations attack will be so significant on a unit

Mixing units is good if they have unequal mass. It's why Kroxigors were good with skinks or minotaurs with ungors, or trolls with goblins. It doesn't work the same with cav since they need to keep momentum, but it's less important for monstrous infantry (unless you're ogres)

Also (I know I'm two months late) if one unit has low health or a certain buff or low models it's good to do it. Let's say your Bretonnia and you've got some solid Grail knight, awesome right? Except your enemy knows cav is Bretonnias only thing so he brings spears. But then you send some peasants in to take the hits while your grails go to town. There's situations for pretty much everything.

Barrier on spawns as demonstrated in this video is very nutty. I'd still make a case for Nurgle spawns but if you took a tzeench vs nurgle forsaken + spawn matchup I couldn't tell you who would win. Nurgle forsaken really rely on that armor but poison and flies kind of swing the odds, right? maybe I should test this myself

Oh yeah these ones apply sophorific musk right? Unfortunately not the only ones that have musk and daemonettes are way too good. Like 2 exalted daemonettes cost 2400 in multi-player to a soul grinders 2k. They have the same cost ratio in single player. They have monstrous weapon strength and melee attack with armor piercing and reduce enemy melee attack by 8 and are decently fast. I'm pretty sure one group of exalted daemonettes would kill a slaneeshi soul grinder with hp to spare and their speed makes flanking and maneuvering easy in siege battles or field battles. Unlike cav they don't knock enemies down so they may be better at picking off fleeing units too.

Chaos Spawns of Slaanesh are supposed to be a tanky frontline so Daemonettes can use their Devastating Flanker

@@obesechicken13 The chaos spawn of slaanesh atm does not apply soporific musk. Its bugged, so to answer OP's question ive played over 100 hours of slaanesh and the spawn of slaanesh have almost no uses at all in their army. They are not fast enough to use devestating flanker, they do not have soporific musk, and they are just as weak as basic chaos spawn

It applies the debuff to the whole unit, unless otherwise specified.

I think he means that something with 100 armour will still be pretty tough when it's reduced to 70, so you'll see less results than when you debuff something with 70 armour. But it's always good to sunder it

Starting with the tldr: The idea is to push midarmored units fown to the threshold where armorpiercing is no longer needed to reliably kill them. Okay. The math is incomplete, so I'll help show how weird math gets. Damage is divided into two types, armor piercing and normal. Armorpiercing damage is pure damage, always dealt. Normal is mitigated by armor, to a minimum of 1. All bonus damage is applied as armor piercing. (Bonus vs infantry, cav, charge bonus) Armor being applied to normal damage is anywhere from 50% of armor value, to full armor value, reducing the damage by that %. So a 70 armor reduces from 35-70%. 95 is 47.5-95%. Now, you reduce the 95 to a 65, it's still 32.5%-65% mitigation, where a 70 goes down to 40. On a 40, you will lose a modest amount of damage. Ultimately, the goal is to bring armor low enough that the combined damage can 1-2 shot whatever model you're hitting. On infantry, health tends to be in the range between 56 and 132, last I checked. Damage however, tends to be around 40-70 on infantry models, with varying values of armor piercing representing varying percents of the damage. The actual raw numbers tend to stay fairly similar between piercing and non-piercing though. So, if you have a unit with 48 normal damage and 2 armor piercing damage, and it needs to carve through a unit with 100 health, and 100 armor, even if you reduce the units armor by 30, it would still take anywhere from 3-5 attacks to kill that model. Which would all have to hit the same entity in a squad of 90, remembering that guys are getting shuffled around. Meanwhile, switching to a 26 armor piercing and 24 normal, at 100 armor it would take 3-4 hits to kill, and at 70 it would take 3-4 hits to kill. On the far end, going 48 armor piercing, 2 normal damage, it goes 2-3 hits to kill our armored enemy, at all points. All in all, you want the right tool for the right job. Armor sundering doesn't always supplement well enough to replace armor piercing, but it can widen the gap of whete and when you can wait to include it

"All bonus damage is applied as armor piercing. (Bonus vs infantry, cav, charge bonus)" Pretty sure this is wrong. All bonus damage is applied in the same ratio as your regular damage. So a unit with no armor piercing who get bonus vs large, will still have 0 armor piercing.

@@jrgenaarvik7671 Quite possibly, I last studied this like three or four years ago and how armor worked at the time had been relatively freshly discovered because the odd divisions and the way stats were divided made it kinda hard to nail down precisely what was happening. Edit: Additionally, I was lazy on armorpiercing, which doesn't pierce resistances like ward saves or physical damage resist.

It's just math. Armor scales logarithmically (or at least almost) so that you get diminishing returns the more armor you have. This helps armor be not OP. But, what this means is that, the higher your armor is, the less damage reduction you get from each point of armor. Above a certain amount of armor, every point of armor is less and less effective. While this means stacking armor isn't all that great, it *does* have the added bonus of making each point of armor *stripped* from you also not be that bad.

You need Greasus with 25% mass to all units +10% mass from pre battle feast with doomstack of hunters of stonehorns each with trait +15% mass for total of +50% mass on already super heavy Stonehorn. Trust me you will never be stuck again. In fact you knock out terracota sentinels like they are domino , charge through SEVERAL units of infantry no problem with collosal damage. Funny also Crushers/Mournfang are so HEAVY with greasus too that each has mass of solid single entity. Not Gorgers, not Ironblasters or Leadbelchers (although they are good and fun) but Crushers and Stonehorns are fun especially with constant +35% mass. Everyone flying around.

Do you mean the hold the line ability from cathay‘s melee infantry?

@@00TV97 it can be that one yes, they are litterary waiting to be attacked, some of them are in action

He spoke about formation lock in this video: m.ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-W_IpVi6KRn4.html

@@ChanceRiddle thanks so much!!

@@ChanceRiddle That’s what i meant. I think enticity should think about how he names his videos.

AI kislev absolutely does bring a crap ton of ranged units

but have almost double upkeep and come later in same building but later regardless. And worth mentioning that on VH and higher difficulty I'm reluctant to spend most of my money on tanky frontlines and not dudes doing real damage (shooting). I'm not denying you can play on Legendary and even be successful , but doesnt mean you have to be right. In my eyes they(spawns) have one job cover me from large entity charging into my horrors. And they do that well + they are not squishy at all as you suggest - at least compared to all other spawns - barrier still is in play so tankier than Nurgle spawns in fact especially against ranged attacks where Nurgle Spawn offers nothing as neither poison neither MD comes into play.

If you use monstrous infantry as front line soldiers then you are the issue, not the unit. They support and shock. Often are used for large targets. But they arent there to hold a battle line.

@@freedomandguns3231 The problem is they generally only want a front line to hold and prefer added dps from afar rather then trying to support forsaken doing a bit more damage. Personally I only think against ogres would spawn helping the front line matter more than flamers or pink horrors or a squad of forsaken / real cav who can defend themselves.

@@freedomandguns3231 nah you can and it does work well. I used trolls both Ice and Stone as frontline and worked VERY well in WH2 on VH/Legendary. Used Ogres - not just Gorgers but also stuff like Ironguts - works fine too. Also some factions like Ogre Kingdoms MUST use Ogres as frontline else you will be using Gnoblars till end of game ? I think huge issue is your lack of flexibility and understanding how game works. Some Cavalry also can work pretty well as frontline if necessary (Grail dudes that Fay starts with or Crushers with Ironfists etc) and some has to strike flank. Dont throw all units into same bag because they are not same units just because they are bigger size. I will give easy tips - if you see something like idk Celestial halberds ... you can still charge it frontally lol - but ... you don't have to since those "frontlines" like monstrous infantry 99% of time are substantially faster (even spawns) and can just manouver and take charge on dudes with swords nearby/archers or charge halberds while someone pincer them from back. How did you even play Bretonnia if you ever did ? Old trick with smashing Halberds from 2 sides because they are slow works absolutelly fine and they melt. Indeed I'm part of issue if I fucking use Ogres as frontline Ogre Kingdom or Cavalry as Brettonia. Beat me to it ...

@@Mario-kf3ej Ogre Kingdoms (and a couple others) are few exceptions because they have no choice. Even so, the Ogre Kingdoms are not a hold the line unit. They are a charge the other line kind of unit. You could use a lot of units in roles they are not suited to. It does not mean they are great for that role. There is a massive difference between what something is good at and what it can do, but is not as well suited to do. Its you who is falling short here, not me. I dont take tips from scrubs

or cannons ... people forget what is most annoying about Tzeentch is that even horrors can survive cannon hits lol because Barrier is for unit unlike HP which is separate for each entity.

Some settlements and towns are awful for squishy ranged fighters, having some melee isnt too bad of an idea

It really doesn't. Spawn are bad. This is all non applicable theory crafting. if you are trying to optimize your forces in campaign, don't take spawn.