Why can't Jungkook sing in English? - That weird New York Times podcast 

Honestly, the whole "BTS releasing English songs is going to compromise the integrity of kpop because it's too western" sounds kinda funny to me, because kpop has always taken inspiration from the western music market and their music trends and that has never compromised the integrity of kpop as a whole

I don’t know why people are acting like Kpop isn’t a genre that was built off of Western and Japanese influences. So of course it’s already western because of it’s origin.

Honestly it just sounds like incredibly narrow-minded gatekeeping, like US media wanting kpop to stay in its own lane because they're foreigners

Jungkook has always liked pop music. He did covers and recommended famous pop songs. He admired Ariana Grande, Justin Bieber and so on. So the album and music are exactly his style and vision. GOLDEN is a beautiful and diverse collection of pop sounds from different eras, a revival of what pop music actually is. Pop isn’t American or Western, it’s a universal music genre. Just like English isn’t limited to the US, but a global language. I actually applaud JK for challenging himself and choosing a risky and rocky path of singing in a non-native language. If any Asian artist can break into the Western market and pave the way for Asian soloists in pop, it’s Jungkook. And also, the “heavy western push” narrative is false. Jungkook got close to 0 radio (Dynamite by BTS had 70+ million). 2 show performances and 1 surprise (organized and sponsored by dear Calvin Klein). And Jimmy Fallon. That’s a classic strategy BTS themselves used except for a surprise performance (iconic tbh). Heavy western promo would be giving Jungkook an actual radio for starters.

Funny thing is that kpop stans also have an issue with groups who maintain their maximalistic style and sound, like NCT and Stray Kids, for being loud, noisy etc. I saw that a lot when Stray Kids performed S-Class an an American award show. They were saying that they give Westerners a bad image of kpop. They wouldn't have an issue if it was their favorite group getting big in the west 😂

anyone who has been paying attention to BTS knows that this direction for JK was a long time coming. the man frequently cites justin bieber as his musical inspiration. nothing about golden is surprising. i haven't listened to the podcast (and don't plan to), but the fact that it even exists at all is so confusing to me.

As an army, we've been hearing the whole "bts is becoming too western" bs since the start of the love yourself era. What I don't understand is how ppl are so quick to say "well they've lost the plot" over 3 english singles even though they released an entire korean and japanese album in between? It ends up looking like they want nothing more in the world than for them to "lose the plot". And now that all members have released solo music, it truly showcases each member's individual artistic integrity. Each album is so drastically different from the other and holds its own exceptionally well. Lastly, the one thing i take from the podcast is that these people are threatened by BTS both as a groups and as soloists. I've see non-kpop youtube videos regarding pop music in the west and it seems like the general consensus is that western pop isn't delivering the way it used to. So western stans have shifted their focus to kpop and - since BTS is essentially the gateway to kpop: BTS. And God forbid korean ppl actually be considered as genuine artists 🙄

Oh my god. They really pulled a Rainbow Rowell and called him Kook? Tell me you know nothing about Korea, let alone kpop, without telling me you know nothing about Korea. I think you have a good point about kpop groups doing Japanese music. I mean, just take the Fearless MV's, one in Korean and one in Japanese. The aesthetics of those videos could not be more different, but no one complains about Le Sserafim compromising their image. It's understood different aesthetics appeal more to different markets. I found it more odd when they didn't change much of anything for the Japanese version of Unforgiven's MV. I also think the point about success is important. It feels like the conversation is being hijacked by group polarization, more people being involved causing people to only become more intense regarding their thoughts and opinions. I actually had an experience just recently where I was watching kpop music videos, and my grandfather commented that it really is an entire industry, and I think that is something important that non kpop fans are missing, that, like you said, it's not a monolith, and just a little research would actually make that perfectly clear. It's an industry, an evolving one, but evolution does not make something entirely unrecognizable. That's the whole point of being a kpop stan, being invested in an industry that balances recognition of its hallmarks and innovation in terms of what new dimensions it can still provide.

Part of this is stan's fault, ever since 2017 ppll have been waaay to comfortable having a debate on whether English lyrics tarnishes kpop. It was never our place to question this especially as non-koreans

I think it's a problem cuz it's bts and their members, like even kpop fans were saying the same thing when they released their 3 English songs and the golden album. For example monsta x released a full English album but that was óke with everyone, but when it comes to bts 3 songs, everyone is suddenly angry or don't like that.

Thank you for your points regarding the albums in Japanese. Quote- “OK let’s start big picture. We’ll dive in on late period BTS and all these solo albums.” My response : They did not dive in on the solos except to criticize JK’s Golden and they didn’t talk anything past Butter for BTS. So they missed out on Proof with Born Singer, For Youth, Run BTS, Yet to Come, Take Two and all the amazing and varied solo works we got. And if anything those English songs brought even more fans to BTS. Far more I would say than they lost. Quotes- “Doesn’t that on some level damage the thing that BTS has been good at?” “Is K-pop being stripped on some level of the singular thing that made it so fascinating?” My Response- Do they mean singing in Korean? I sincerely would like an explanation from them on that. If they were talking about the “maximalism”, I would suggest watching the SNTY music video. Quote-“What is being lost here?” & “What it is, is an attempt to make American music.” (Golden) My response-- It wasn’t an attempt. It was a very successful accomplishment. He sang English songs without an accent and with great emotion while giving it the Jungkook flair. (JK is not yet fluent. But he has come a long way.) Which is incredible as anyone who sings can tell you. I recently saw a Korean opera professor/performer on YT who praised JK for his pronunciation and enunciation. Closing Thoughts-Mine None of us “own” the English language. Jungkook made an album for all of his fans around the world. English is considered an international or global language. He wanted to expand globally and to challenge himself. I am sure Big Hit was very happy for him to do this because yes, the US is the largest music market in the world. And a quick google of Hybe revenues 2022 by geographic location will find that North America is second only to Korea in revenues. And the majority of his promotions were in the US. As fans we all knew that Jungkook had a love for US pop music, so a pop album wasn’t any surprise. And even if you didn’t love every song on the album, I feel that all fans are proud of what Jungkook accomplished. ____________ To Be Fair: It is appreciated the couple times that John said how cool it was in the grand scope of music that an English song by a Korean group was the #1 song in America for weeks at the time of Butter and then something similar about JK. I think this would have been a good starting point.

I think that another thing to point out is that Jungkook himself wanted to be able to shift between being a k-pop idol in BTS and the western market with his solo music. The Golden album wasn’t supposed to be k-pop or have a k-pop sound, Jungkook wanted to be able to break into the western market with western style/sounding songs. And looking at the comments, people are bringing up how BTS’s music hasn’t been the same since the English trilogy and that their music style changed after that. But I think that’s the beauty of music. Artists evolve and explore different sounds over time. Yes, their music after the release might’ve been different than the Love Yourself era, but if you look back at their Dark and Wild era for example, you’d think they’re totally different bands altogether. As they grow as artists their sound changes, and that’s not a bad thing. It’s just a preference of taste. But I don’t think that they’ll ever lose that sound, we just won’t see it as much in the future because they’ll be experimenting with other styles in their new albums. We get examples of this from RUN BTS and For Youth.

I know that I had some concerns and confusion about BTS, JK, and others promoting in the West with not just English music, but also more Western sounding music. I completely forgot about Japanese promotions and new Japanese songs, because I don't always listen to them. That is such a good point and kind of put me in my place. I didn't have concerns that kpop was being compromised -- I really only enjoyed Butter -- but I was worried English was the new direction period. And then they dropped their solos and I didn't have that thought anymore. I just wonder why reporters for the Western market cares? We don't make a big deal over British, Canadian and Australian singers, Spanish-speaking musicians, etc. Why is it such a problem that the other Korean singers do English music too? Even when I had my reservations about BTS, it kept bothering me that they weren't being taken seriously by Western radio and interviewers. And just. If the people in charge of our media don't respect kpop enough to present idols like artists and not a passing fancy, they will never have a proper chance of gaining influence beyond kpop fans.

The Psychology is so interesting to me. Beyonce' drops a Country Song and everyone is so excited that she has the strength to try a new genres'. Why is BTS treated differently for trying new things? What if, BTS had Big Dreams. What if those dreams was to be on Top of the Billboard HOT 100? What if their dreams were to tour all over the world? What would it take for BTS to get their dreams? What if, the Biggest Music Industry in the world, the country your have your sites on, won't play a Korean song on the radio? What if, the song has to be sung in English, to get your dreams? That's what BTS and other Korean Artists face when trying to break into the U.S. Entertainment Industry. Someone who is as talented or has worked as hard as BTS, should not be excluded from their dreams.

This is such an interesting analysis and I wanted to briefly chime in as a sometime-listener of the NYT Popcast. I think a lot of the issues with this ep are due to Jon Caramanica - he typically loves to position himself as an expert or insider on all things, and instead of opening up the convo and trying to learn from guests or other panelists and their POVs, he instead steers every discussion towards his often-less-informed takes or arguments. I think there’s a lot to analyze about Golden from a western music POV, but instead of trying to learn more, Caramanica just wanted rehash his stale ideas. (Which of course isn’t to say that he’s the only person in the west with half-baked bs takes on Korean music, or that those takes don’t speak to systemic issues.) I forget if it was in that episode or another one, but one of the most delicious moments of schadenfreude in Popcast history for me remains when he implied that NewJeans are basically the only important kpop gg, and when the guest mentioned that Ive is actually somewhat bigger in Korea, he obviously had never heard of them and had to try to pretend like he had. Just admit when you don’t know something, dude!

One look at the one persons (cara) that was talking here on twt told me everything I needed to know about that "jurnalist" that talked Here. Honestly thought it was Just some kpop fans account hating on newer groups as a 2nd Gen Stan. And talk to anybody from a non english speaking country and literally people just switch to english and thats never adressed even If they will only still be known in their Home country

You nailed it. The whole issue of their "concern" with kpop integrity is because JK solo debut is huge success and they can't accept it.

my one question to all the ppl who lost interest in bts due to their english trilogy, did u even hear BE and Proof? i myself didn’t like dynamite and butter, ptd was kinda okay but i absolutely love BE. you don’t have to like every single release because ur fans, you are allowed to have ur preferences. but ur preferences shouldn’t become a label for the artist because it was YOU individually who didn’t like a particular release, there are still others who liked it.

Abba are Swedish so when they hit it big, they have to change and started making English songs so they became more popular...and thus their classics were born such as dancing queen

Since they're trying to gatekeep the 'western validation ' 🙄... I'm gonna be petty and say the name 'Kook' belongs to Army 😂

everyday i’m such a big fan of jungkook because he’s proving not only americans get to be pop stars 🥰 thee first asian POPSTAR. and english is not a language owned by the west it is literally the GLOBAL language. every country knows english whether a little or a lot. it dominates most art mediums like greek did in the past, it is not owned by westerners or americans or anyone. keep shining jungkook, he fits in so well to the global mainstream of celebrities, these convos are so silly anyways. he will be there and there’s no getting rid of him.

these so called journalists are typically biased yg stans at best and racist at worst gatekeeping what kpop can be...they are shallow envious of other kpop groups success...boracity magazine offered an interesting take on this and countered some of the main points they used here to discount bts and other kpop groups that they don't stan.

Monsta X already did this😂

Compromising Kpop's identity is a bit too much, but BTS lost their identity over their English releases. And that is not some internet random's opinion, that's what their leader cried about in their 9th anniversary dinner before announcing that the group will take a 3 year long break so they can find themselves again. Imo the only member that really worked out with their English releases was Jungkook anyway so he just stuck with it.

You may be able to debate "they sound too western", but I think the objective fixed sentiment that most OG armys felt was that they completely changed their style after blowing up in the west. It's 2 different things. The first one is subjective, but to say it's subjective that the overwhelming majority of OG BTS fans instantly said "this is no longer BTS" cannot be ignored or put on the "it's subjective" debate. The fandom or - former fandom - are living 2 opposite worlds when it comes to the same group. Esp pre-panoramic and post-panoramic. It's sad, because a lot of OG/older army still wanted to love and stream BTS, but due to such a huge style change it's just hard.

It is not western validation....it is western money they are after...and there's nothing wrong with that ...English makes it more accessible...they've been making Japanese songs what's wrong in making English songs?

I listened to the podcast you referenced and I'm a little confused because you made it sound a bit like they said Jungkook couldn't break into the western market but they actually referenced that he did. (By the way I want to say thank you for your content, I've been enjoying the discussions you've started and I'm just participating in this one) Their frustrations were that the pop music he released was generic rather than eclectic the way kpop as a market is known for. And I think it's apparent Kara at least has been following BTS for a while and is just airing her grievances for the older BTS sound, starting with their western pushes in 2018. I do think their viewpoint was still that of early kpop stans (such as their misdirected thoughts on txt) but I did find a lot of their points valid, not discriminatory at all. I think John didn't understand the industry the way we or Kara do but I didn't find his comments any more frustrating than other journalists that aren't kpop stans. I actually agree in their point where the "extreme" western push JK has done is a bit of a backwards step only because I applaud BTS' dedication to originality and pushing boundaries. Golden didn't push any boundaries, so I was disappointed with that but I don't think it's a bad album either. Comparatively, Jimin's album had some very interesting production and composition decisions that kept me engaged as a maximalist kpop fan, while still being more pop oriented than the other solo works. All in all I think both you and the podcasters made good points but might be failing to see each other's perspectives, which is common in a fandom that has such a diverse range of fans. I'll keep tuning in to what you have to say about the industry!

Hang on one minute Kpop is based on Western music, Black American Western music and often done very badly at that.

Disclaimers: 1) It's every companies' and artist's right to produce what they want, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, nor that I'm not allowed to say so if I don't! And it also doesn't mean I'm not a "true fan" if I don't like everything an artist releases. 2) Yes, some of the piece's mistakes were embarrassing, but that doesn't discredit everything it says. That said: I agree with the main point of the article, and it's what I've been feeling myself ever since BTS's "Dynamite", "Permission To Dance" and "Butter" - to the point that I stopped "stanning" them. And that this trend is taking over much of Kpop, albeit not yet entirely, but far too much, hasn't happened immediately, but it's definitely ongoing (eg compare Ten's "Dangerous" to Jungkook's "Standing Next To You"), and I'm very disappointed about that. To me it's the definition of "selling out" - because it's not even just about the language or "Americanization", it involves a reduction of quality and complexity. The aim is not just to win over more American listeners, but worse, to broaden the audience by catering to the lowest common denominator everywhere, under the assumption that everyone loves current American mainstream music (which is also wrong). Those are also two reasons why the J-Pop localisation example is NOT comparable, nor is the argument valid that Kpop was always influenced by western music. Even if some remarks might not have been put very well, I don't think the authors are being "discriminatory" or that they regard this trend as a "threat". On the contrary, it is well meant and argues for more cultural diversity! One indication of this is that many Koreans feel the same way! Another indication is: Korean movies and TV Dramas have become very successful in the USA without compromising regarding cultural specificity and quality! And even BTS broke into the market there first with "genuine" Kpop. Their company just got greedy, because they want to expand to an even broader, non K-Pop audience now. I think that they are even wrong that they will achieve this in this manner, because people who prefer their culture's own music still won't except foreign artists when they do something more similar, and for others who originally sought an alternative, it won't be one anymore. Koreans might still regard the American market as a "prestige object", but they should have realised by now that they aren't going to win over critics and awards that way, because they have higher standards and different criteria than mainstream audiences - and this disappointment is palpable in the article. In case someone doesn't realise what Kpop is aspiring to: I recommend the "worst of the American charts" lists by Todd in the Shadows. Not only are the similarities jarring, if you turned away from that and had found an alternative in Kpop, then you would be crying like I am.