I actually installed the LIneset a few years back... I will be going live on RU-vid this evening 1/17/22 @ 5:PM (pacific) to discuss recent videos and answer questions from emails, RU-vid comments and the live chat, come over and check it out ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kyIKGtwKZ4U.html
When you roll up on a dinosaur, figure you are about to find 17 different problems. Then she proves you very wrong! Literally best HVACR content on the tube! Thank you for what you do!
I agree the system looks old, but it doesn't look completely EFFED up like so many others with which Chris is faced..... I don't know if that observation is worth a cuppa joe, but I noted the general tidiness...
@@silasmarner7586 She was simple in design, I see everyone assumes great maintenance plan but, I just don't believe it. Looks like nobody has touch it in an eternity. She's just an oldie but a goodie.
Old fuses can just blow, especially if they've been subjected to many surges like they probably will be every time the compressor starts. Also if the fuse rating has very little headroom, this can happen sooner.
And not modern crap because the quality has gone down hill why make modern systems cheap Keep the quality but find another to reduce the power consumption all this electrical sensors etc to make the system use less power . More is not better
@@josh6715 every once in a while I will find a customer who will tell me spend whatever amount I have to, just make it so it doesn't break again. Unfortunately some items are wear items and with use over time will wear out. Sometimes freak accidents happen I once had a contractor fail because an insect got smashed inside it. In order to make it so insects are unable to come into contact with these parts we would need to seal up the compartment but we cannot seal up the compartment because we need airflow to cool electrical components or they will overheat and short out. Adding screens just causes more maintenance expenses. Which brings me back to the OP, properly maintain what you have and it will last forever or until you need something that better suits your current situation. Hope and prayer will only take your as far as the machines limitations will go.
As others have said. Yes the contactor needed to be replaced. Did it contribute? It might have. If the fuses were original after N thousands (millions) of cycles the heat/cool the metal in the fuse probably fatigued after 20+ years. I think that is where the fault lies.
Yup! As they say "they don't build them like that anymore". A good example: The new "feather light" vacuum cleaners. The moving parts are all made of cheap plastic parts, which wear out quicker, then the old metal (somewhat heavier) parts. Not worth it! 😖👎
For sure that, but back then they didn't build systems out of chewed bubblegum and a little hope either. Lol Wild how disposable everything is now because they want our money constantly.
@@crabmansteve6844 Seems like an economic system based on growth and consumption has its flaws once the market is satisfied and therefore needs to come up with ways to make people buy new stuff.
Yeah, that contactor was old, yeah, it was worn but it also shows how long they can last. Pitting on the contacts is normal, they are designed for it and can last a long time. If you get dirt or carbon, that can cause more issues than the pitting. But as soon as a contactor is in operation, the contacts will start to get pitted, it's whole life is to interrupt and make contact and deal with the arcing and subsequent pitting. Not in this case, but in some of your contactor replacements, I'd liken it to installing new tires, three months later the tires show wear and someone saying they need to be replaced. Sure, they show wear, but they still have years of life left. Same with contactors, they show wear (pitting) but can still have years of life left. Changing this one was a good call, but knowing how old that contactor was and was still (probably) doing it's job shows how bad the contacts can look and still be serviceable. Sorry for the rant, some of the contactors I've seen you change out drives me crazy. Cheap insurance maybe, but still drives me crazy. Anyway, not telling you are doing it wrong, just my professional electrical opinion and as always, good video, good troubleshooting and stay safe.
Honestly I’m in the field and I feel the same way, but again like you said, it’s cheap insurance to prevent a call back. I typically don’t replace unless I see discoloration from heat/high resistance
True but on the other hand if you having an issue in the electrical system and there is a component showing wear that isn't expensive or difficult to replace it's better to replace it as a precaution so that you're not playing whack-a-mole in terms of diagnostics especially if has an issue you can't see, it's preventive maintenance, to use your tyre analogy even if the tyre has life left in it it may be drying out and weakening meaning it's going to degrade faster till it fails while you're driving leaving you in a bad situation hence why they're replaced at a minimum tread depth/ after 5 years. That's my 2 cents on the matter personally
older contactors would last a very long time due to the metallurgy used in the contacts, newer contacts are composed of lesser materials and none of them will last as long and forget the cheap off-brand junk which uses even poorer compositions yet. you may thank ROHS, the governments, unions, scientists, idiots and poor handling and managing to ingest the stuff. (mainly cadmium, but others)
Thanks to your videos Chris, I'm now the friend that comes over and helps you clean the split system filters. And then puts on the HVACR channel instead of Netflix.
Chris, you present your trade and craft so eloquently, and you cover a wide range of subjects within HVAC. I wish you and your company and your family the absolute best in 2022.
Dude I love your truck crane. I have a shelf full. lol. I remember when I was in school in the early 80s, a buss fuse publication we received said a loose or misfitting fuse or other loose connection can cause a fuse to blow at a greatly reduced ampacity such as a mere 20 percent of the rating. The example they listed was a 30 amp fuse was blowing at 6 amps because the fuse holder was weakened with heat and age. Sometimes you have to throw a part at it just because it COULD be the problem even tho it was not showing at the time and a contactor is certainly not gonna break the bank to clean that up before it IS a problem. And I like that you eliminated the abandoned clock. Clean it up and make diagnosing it in the future easier. I have steared down a wrong path before only to find something was abandoned in place. You probably should advise them the rear bearing on the cfm is loosing it's grease and will possibly fail someday.
i'm a building owner and i can repair my 20 rooftops units. thank you , and i now do more checking amps and wiring . just trying to save a few dollars and i can understand what is going on . ......i still call in the pros when needed.
I've ran into the same problem countless times. I've tore units apart trying to find out where the short or over draw was and never found it. Great video.
Intermittent problems are the most complicated to resolve. If I could pick a person to troubleshoot this, it would be you. The problem might come back but I know tou went above and beyond what a normal technician would.
tHANKS FOR THE NICE WORDS BUD! I will be going live on RU-vid this evening 1/17/22 @ 5:PM (pacific) to discuss recent videos and answer questions from emails, RU-vid comments and the live chat, come over and check it out ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kyIKGtwKZ4U.html
Fuses work by a wire overheating and melting. This is why if look at a datasheet for a fuse you will see they are usually rated not to blow at even twice the rated current. However what can happen is when a fuse is subject to lower current pulses (low voltage when it switches on) multiple pulses will cause the fuse to warm up. Multiple cycles will cause the wire to degrade and the fuse fail without a real overload
I agree, i have seen more than once, that a fuse died from "age" A combination of load cycles, and vibration, can also lead to the fuse wire breaking or coming lose inside. This is where see through glass fuses are really good. If the inside is totally black, expect something to have drawn a million amps, but if the glass is clear, it might just be due to age and vibration.
Thank you! I live in a small house the only 220v I have is a electric dryer. Oh, we have a outlet for a electric stove, but our stove is gas. No central a/c. 100 amp service all together. Our service box is mainly glass fuses (except for the dryer & unused range outlet). I love them. Makes diagnosing a "blown" out fuse so much easier! Yeah, you have to replace them, but not knowing why the circuit tripped (overload or a short) is a bigger pain! P.S. When was the last time we had to replace a fuse? About 8 or 9 years ago. Old 2nd hand blender. Had a short in it. Hubby found the problem, threw it out, & bought me a new one! 😊👍
corrosion and thermal cycling does weaken most everything, they could have been stressed by brownouts and phase loss many times (typical power supplied in commifornia) 🤪
Just want to thank you man I’m new in the field. I have a lot to learn just finished school in September I start my job next month in hvacr a bit nervous considering I been a chef for 20 yrs lol. But hey man I’ve watched almost all your videos keep ‘em coming I will support the best way I can got to get me one of those hats!!
Ha Ha so I guess the title "influencer" is correct about me.... I will be going live on RU-vid this evening 1/17/22 @ 5:PM (pacific) to discuss recent videos and answer questions from emails, RU-vid comments and the live chat, come over and check it out ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kyIKGtwKZ4U.html
Thanks so much for watching!! I will be going live on RU-vid this evening 1/17/22 @ 5:PM (pacific) to discuss recent videos and answer questions from emails, RU-vid comments and the live chat, come over and check it out ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kyIKGtwKZ4U.html
Thanks so much for the nice words Brian!! I will be going live on RU-vid this evening 1/17/22 @ 5:PM (pacific) to discuss recent videos and answer questions from emails, RU-vid comments and the live chat, come over and check it out ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kyIKGtwKZ4U.html
Your Welcome and thanks for watching!! I will be going live on RU-vid this evening 1/17/22 @ 5:PM (pacific) to discuss recent videos and answer questions from emails, RU-vid comments and the live chat, come over and check it out ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kyIKGtwKZ4U.html
Chris, that replacement contactor has enough pitting and wear to easily draw more current. You can see the pitting and spalling from high current arcing. Couple it with the obvious socal power grid voltage drop means more current and can blow a fuse. And yeah the disconnect has to be on the outside. You can get non fusible disconnects especially since there's a breaker right behind it but I don't know the codes for that area. They may require fusible anyways. It's kind of silly to have a breaker there since that's a point of failure if you have to have a fusible disconnect that will blow before the breaker. Oh well.
Technically, the pitting draws less current, not more current. It is a higher resistance in the circuit. If one of the three legs had sufficiently high resistance to reduce the current by 30 - 40%, THEN one of the other legs could draw enough current through the other normal resistance contacts to open a fuse. The unit label specifies how low the grid voltage can go before damage to the unit can happen.
@@arthouston7361 I am totally with you that more resistance in the circuit gives less current. But when resistance gets higher in the contactor the energy has to go somewhere and it will become heat. I see no way that resistance can go so high that it will drop the current by 30-40% without the copper melting. Just a little higher resistance will give you quite a few watts and will heat up stuff quickly.
@@Jonas_Aa The temperature does not continue to rise because of the decrease in current that continues to occur. Thermal runaway typically causes the contact arm to distort and provide even less contact pressure, but I have never seen the copper actually melt.
@@arthouston7361 it is the increasing resistance in the contact that rises and then so does the heat dissipation in the contact due to voltage drop across the contact. For example. If the contactors contact have 0.1 Ohm resistance that will at 5 Amp have a power loss of 2.5 Watts (P = I^2 x R). But if the contact resistance is raised to 1 Ohm then it will be 25 Watts of heat being generated in the contact it self and then it starts to heat up like a soldering pen.
@@Jonas_Aa You are forgetting that as that resistance goes from .1 to 1, current drops immediately, which reduces the heating from the initial amount. Because one of the three phase legs is being starved, the loads drop off as their internal overloads open due to the unbalanced currents.
I think it was lower voltage/higher current, plus current of control circuit and comp' and fans and weakest fuse because those have tolerance too and it caused fuse failure. I totally think you where on the right path. Good one
Dumb question perhaps, but aren't linked breakers common for such installations? So that if one of the three phases triggers an overload, it cuts all three and does not ruin your compressors.. that's literally what they were invented for. Using three separate breakers (or melting fuses) for a three-phase motor sounds like a dumb idea, maybe even a code violation, to me.
Is the voltage issue related to equipment on the costumer side, or the utility side? That's one thing that I seem to notice about the US electrical grid. Since much of it is privatised, some issues are just overlooked. In Canada, we have certainly had some issues from time to time with our electrical grid, but it seems that every time there are issues, they don't just merely correct the issues. They make sure that it does not happen again, and they really don't mess around. They have a lot of power (pardon the pun) to be able to get the work done regardless of what property owners might think or say.
Contactor points are convex and new points make contact in the center. As they wear the convex shape flattens out. If they are flat it's time to replace the contactor. A rough surface indicates that the points have not been separating cleanly and are sticking.
Educated GUESS=life experience. Every day you (should) learn more which equates to a more spot on theory! Face it, we're paid for what we know and have learned. Have a great week!
Sometimes ,I prefer to install an adjustable overload on the contactor , so if the amps goes beyond the set point ,there's no damage to components..... especially defrost heaters and compressor
@@robertbritton656 "How" what? The manufacturer uses motors with internal overloads. If they didn't make that low-cost choice, they would be using motors without internal overloads and using motor starters (which is a contactor and overload set in one package) in place of the very inexpensive "definite purpose" contactor. Either way, when a defective contact in a contactor causes a loss of current in that individual winding, the current will increase in the OTHER windings, and that will cause the overload to open. That causes ZERO current in all windings, even if the contactor is closed.What exactly is your question? Did I answer it?
@@arthouston7361 Wow, how condescending can you be? I'm well aware of how contactors and 3~ phase motors work, I work with them every day. The motors I work with don't have internal overloads and rely on protection external to the motor, whether it be an MCCB or a smaller MCB. And no, you didn't answer my question. I asked how fitting an overload to a contactor, such as a Schneider LRD10 to a Sys D contactor, invalidates the UL listing, as both products are designed to be used together.
@@robertbritton656 The short answer is that the device you mentioned was not a part of the original design. Only OEM parts and their identical counterparts maintain the UL listing. I have that right from the UL director of engineering. That said, many techs do not mind voiding the UL listing, and they don't realize the liability that brings. Suppose a fire causes millions in damage, and the insurance company says that their investigators found that the equipment protection had be redesigned in the field without approval. They might choose to decline coverage of the loss. Then, the questions start, and someone is looking at records to determine WHO changed the protection design. If that sounds condescending, it is not my intent. I am only telling you what I have learned in oh...fifty plus years of mechanical work, and my in-person conversations with UL at an electrical inspectors meeting. If you find value in that, great. if not, you have a nice day. I hope someone can learn from this thread.
With the Breaker in between the Disconnect and the Equipment, the NEC might allow you to replace the Fused Disconnect with a Non-Fused Disconnect... It might be something to ask a Licensed Electrician...
Chris, if you can, save those silver contacts. Save them up, melt the silver out and there are companies that buy industrial silver. X-ray images used to have silver in them before going digital, and I got 75 lbs from a customer, and got $125 for the silver in them because they were newer in the 80's if they were older, the value would have been more. You might get a good price just cutting off the non-ferrous from them.
Wow if I was you customer and you were billing me for your curiosity/chasing your tail, chasing a spurious blown fuse, which are known to fail due to thermal fatigue over time at/below rated amps, especially as the fuses are known to be decades old... I would not be happy!
You are assuming they are not on a maintenance contract and the customer is already paying for the call regardless of when you are there. And he may not be billing as he is using it for filming his teaching videos , which they may have already approved.
Would you rather be the customer that paid for a fuse replacement, and then had to pay again for another service call because there was a fault elsewhere in the system?
John Its all about what the customer wants, and the cost of a call back is hefty.... I will discuss this on my livestream this evening 1/17/22 @ 5:PM (pacific) on RU-vid come over and check it out ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kyIKGtwKZ4U.html
Remember that most service people have a minimum call out charge. That can be one or two hours, depending on the service type, and even include a trip fee to cover the time spent driving to the site. Once you're on-site, being paid for the time, _do the work_. Unless you have to urgently get to another job, your leaving after 5 minutes and a fuse swapout is nothing but cheating people out of their money.
While theoretically possible, it's a strip of metal in a mostly sealed glass tube and also in an enclosed metal box. There should be no reason for it to "degrade." The poor condition of the contactor means arcing which you could clearly see from the spall. That means excess current. Given socal power grid... already 8V low on this video, should it have sagged another 10V it could have been enough current to pop the fuse. I'd be pretty sure that was the culprit.
Yes, Tesla had that problem where the fuse elements would degrade over time and ultimately they went with pyrotechnic fuses controlled by a simple current measurement board.
While I agree fuses can go bad, it is a slippery slope to allow people to just say the fuses went bad! I will discuss this on my livestream this evening 1/17/22 @ 5:PM (pacific) on RU-vid come over and check it out ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kyIKGtwKZ4U.html
Maily its the quality, new equipment is made with cheaper and less reliable materials, I will discuss this on my livestream this evening 1/17/22 @ 5:PM (pacific) on RU-vid come over and check it out ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kyIKGtwKZ4U.html
At first appearance, the color code of incoming supply wires is color coded - 3 phase 460 volts on the contactor. When you tested voltage, 208, 3 phase voltage supplied, 200 measured. Electrician choice of wiring this unit was totally wrong. Makes me wonder if the condenser was wired for 460 originally and the actual supplied condenser is 208. The electrician did not repull the wires or color code the wires with tape for 208.
It's a common misconception that the NEC specifies color codes for different voltages, but it doesn't. There isn't an NEC standard for different color conductors for different voltages. Except for the high-leg (wild-leg) in a 120/240 delta configuration which must be orange. There is an unwritten standard that most people follow, like the B-O-Y for 480VAC you are referring to here, but there isn't any legal requirement that you must follow it. The only requirements are for the grounded / neutral conductors which must be white or gray. And of course the equipment grounding conductor, which is bare copper, green or green / yellow. But I will agree, it was a poor choice of colors for a 208VAC system, even though it is not against code. Also possible that this was previously a 480VAC set up before and there is no sense in pulling new conductors just for the colors.
I don't know if it'd be worth your while to do so, but I'd love to see you offer the "generic" HVAC/R logo from the hats on a T or sweat shirt. I'd certainly order some of those, if they existed, and maybe other folks who are a one man show would as well?
U am trying to understand the wire on line 2 going to the other side of the contactor. Of course, I need to investigate more what you did, but if you could give me a hit where to start, It would be great.
You mentioned that you are not a fan of fuses. That unit is so old that fuses were very likely a manufacturer label requirement at that time, because not all service panel breakers were HVACR rated then, and the panel breakers downstairs supply the power to the conductors going to the roof, so the NEC requirements for branch circuits and feeders had to be met. Today, all breakers are made to meet that HVACR standard, and you won't see "fuses" mentioned on modern equipment labels. Instead you get an MCA and an MOCPD value to guide the installer. Those values are not intended to be the same as those for "lighting and general use," which confuses some techs. See NEC 440.4(B). Mike Holt has an excellent video on this. Yes, that contactor is very old. Furnace stopped making those contactors over ten years ago. I'm sure you mentioned to the manager that it's time for that system to be replaced.
Why is it time for the system to be replaced? Looks like it's functioning perfectly. Everything will fail at some point but Why fill up more landfills on items that are in working order? Terrible wasteful mindset. Unless the evaporator or condenser has multiple holes or several items crap out at once... it makes no sense to junk it. Besides the fact that California codes and permits means major frigging bucks to change out and newer units will probably need curbing and roofing done so it's still cheaper to repair by and far away
@@etherealrose2139 I understand that you, as a non-HVAC tech, would not understand the dynamics of unit efficiency, or the idea that the refrigerant used by that compressor is being phased out. You can repair nearly any system, but at this point, it costs the customer more money over time to try and do that. Since this is a refrigeration unit, there is no curbing. And no, old HVAC units are not put into landfills. All of that metal gets recycled.
Contacter is burn out im sure alway be contacter when it cant get good connection it will burn out fuse ormover amp it and u did spot it on right track
P=V.I.1,73 if voltage drops, current goes up. Including startup currents for a longer period of time. That low voltage issue needs to be taken care off.
So with a disconnect and a breaker, hard to tell in the video, but looks like the breaker was 20 amps and the fuses were 30amps. Since the fuse blew, wouldn’t that mean that the issue was between the disconnect and the breaker otherwise with a issue inside the condensing unit itself, the breaker would have tripped first. Just a theory.
As old as me huh? At first I thought it was some sort of a joke. But at home I still have freezer that is probably twice older and still run. They just don't make stuff like in old days
yup i have one client that has some belt drivens still!! and they are original they are dieing but still going and i have the same customer which is weird lol! he has a semi hermetic LAL Series its 6 years old and still sounds like its brand new its amazing but then this compressor has the works going for it suction core shell drier remote condenser electronic thermostasts Etc .. it had a few oil changed but its still going
Why you check Oms on all 3 phases? if they are connected in triangle and dont have broke! (you already check Ampers!) if winding coil broke amps shows incorect parrametrs!
I had a RTU that kept blowing a fuse. I went through it and couldn’t find a cause other than the contactor looked to be getting hot. I changed it out and I haven’t had a call back it’s been 6 months.
In a unit of that age I certainly wouldn't be pulling stuff off willy nilly without knowing that was definitely the fault, otherwise you're likely to create more faults than you fix. For me? One 20+ year old fuse blows for no readily apparent reason? Most likely a fault in the fuse itself. Replace and just leave it. If same fuse blows again, suspect supply issue and replace again. Third time? Then pull the covers off and call sherlock holmes.....
I understand what you are saying but the price of a call back is hefty... I will discuss this on my livestream this evening 1/17/22 @ 5:PM (pacific) on RU-vid come over and check it out ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-kyIKGtwKZ4U.html
That's fine if it's your gadget, you're right there, and you don't suffer expensive downtime. With minimum call charges and times, plus trip fees, replacing the contactor plus fuses is MUCH more cost effective than risking even one more expensive call out.
Question- if you come across a contactor that’s pitted like this one and don’t have one in the truck, can you sand the contact points as a temporary fix until you get back?
It would depend on how discoloured (burned) they are. That's actually a fix that's been in use for decades. I've used a nail file on a distributor and rotor, and emery paper is commonly used for that.
@@tbelding you mentioned ignition points, which is exactly what I was thinking when I asked my question. I actually used that trick on a Ford 8n tractor not long ago. The owner had no clue what points are, how to file them, or adjust them. So much mechanical knowledge is being lost.
