I Get Why Valve Gave Up on This Now 

I would give you a video idea, but I kinda suck about thinking of one sooo, sorry man, got nothing

Well you still can try that right? Just make a 2nd civilian video

TF2C came up with having the civilian be able to give teammates mini crits

​@@j.n7442we were all counting on you bro wtf

just make a tf2c server

So basically a player payload car

@@insertname1837 Kind of. In TF2 Classic, Civilian gives a weak passive heal, and speedboost to anyone near him, and has an 8 second minicrit boost he can use on a teammate once every 30 seconds. He's more like a different flavor of medic, than a payload cart, because he can't be used as cover, and he doesn't give metal/ammo. The biggest change is definitely that the game has a timer to capture, which lowers by 30 seconds when the Civilian dies, and players can choose to swap away from the Civilian if they don't want to play as him, which allows someone else to play the class. In the Original VIP mode, the round was over if the Civilian died even once, and they couldn't swap away.

Did they experiment with giving the civillian a weapon like a pistol?

plus you check a box in the settings to avoid being picked as civilian if you know you're going to suck

This comment makes me want to go back to TF2C and play ViP again. Love that gamemode. Wished people played it more, but i also understand why its not that popular

Invincible heavies with the dalokos bar, stunning scouts, and snipers that can random crit with the Sydney sleeper

Definitely.

the thing is for certain weapons, the "strongest" state is subjective. for example the pretty boys pocket pistol gave hp and fall dmg res which some people may preferred to the jungle inferno version which healed 7hp had higher dps

aedi doog a s i siht ,cinuohs esaelP

And with a closure

You can't even stand in the spawn room in 100 player games without dying to explosive spam. How is BLU ever to win?

Or "How many players does it take to stop 100 civilians"

So fall guys but TF2?

@@MarkSerenadesYou with 100 civilians

​@@Nikke-nn5mn why is this giving the pokemon vs lions debate

Don’t diss my boy the payload, he’s got way more personality.

Random but the actual word is "cartoonish" but god now I wish it was "cartoonic". It just has so much more flair man

He wasnt confusing, I played plenty of TFC. One thing this YT'ber, and mappers arent doing with respect to this game mode is abiding by the class & team comp restrictions inherent to the original map. Assassins were all snipers to a max of 5, and bodyguards were only HWG (Heavy), Soldier and Medic with no cap. This was a crucial part of the game mode, and what made it fun and I dont know why mappers now with Vscript didnt respect that aspect.

​@@SnackPatrol cause that's boring?

@@vyor8837 No, its what made it balanced, and fun. It is literally essential to the gamemode. Going to guess you didnt play Hunted in TFC so why are you even weighing in on your hypothetical opinion that itd be boring? Engineers, and everyones fav Soldier/Med pub duo as Assassins, equal in team size to BG's would ruin the game mode, and has. Ive played variations of the map over the years in TF2. The last time I played it, despite showing people the routes the score was 1 win Hunted/BGs, 10 wins Assassins. Honestly, its a different era and I feel most people who didnt start with either qtf or tfc cant wrap their brain around the concept of a mod with certain team size/class limits. Like dude thats just the game mode, and it doesnt work without it. It was one of my favorite game modes, and I loved playing the VIP.

SQUAD. WE GOT FREEMAN.

Well we're still on New Mexico so it works.

@@Prowox imagining a TF2 A/D campaign where you play through every section of HL1 remade in TF2

@@SenhorKoringa On a Rail should at least be payload, though

@@SenhorKoringa I'm imagining a horrible Degroot-like map for the Rocket Test area w/ the three alien tentacles... Cap the Power and Fuel zones to unlock the final Ignition Switch control point temporarily

Assuming the civilian dies instantly to a backstab, you could easily just backstab him as spy, tf2's npcs are completely oblivious and have no self awareness to them, even worse if the whole team understands this and goes like 6 spies and bomb rushes him at the same time.

funny comment, you should be a writer

Evolved into train basically

legit make a map with payload but it's medic on little ambulance from a taunt and when he stops and moves backwards he starts yelling to push

That is just payload with a health bar to reset it to 0.

At least medic can benefit his team, civilian just like cowers in the corner

Yes, but no. As a medic, you're actually actively doing things. You're an extremely important piece in the road towards victory. You make pushes, you break the enemy's push. You keep your team healthy and they protect you as best they can. The civilian just wanders around barely being able to do anything at all and helplessly hopes he can move forward without dying.

honestly my first thought was if the game mode just used a single (more pathetic) medic instead of a civilian

Medic actually contributes to the game, you’re literally just letting your team do everything for you as the civvy

Medic does something at least

SWAT 4 was so good. I never even played the multiplayer but just the campaign was so endlessly replayable. They really don't make games like that anymore

@@8bitcrook273 It was an awesome game.

sounds interesting, too bad i dont have any real context about what the game is, or was, or plays like, or feels like, or looks like

​@@TWGatoradeSlow, tactical SWAT simulator with a focus on teamwork and non-lethal gameplay. Basically Ready or Not with worse graphics.

Gears of war did a good iteration. Each team had a VIP which couldn't die and instead be downed (could only crawl) and both teams had to capture the enemy VIP to then carry them to spawn

The bright side at least is that unlike most Escort Missions the Civilian is a human player and not a dumb AI.

​@@kaiosamatlj4031not saying much, considering the type of players tt2 has

@@sudokuacrobatics I am pretty sure the team can just switch whoever the civilian with enough votes in TF2C (or vote kick if the current civilian is blatantly throwing the game and replace him with someone else) unlike typical dumb AIs where not taking cover, dodge incoming attack or go near teammates isn't considered at all and at least with dumb human player can wait for teammates to kill the enemies if cannot dodge or attack, can beat the enemy with the worst melee weapon if can't take cover / go near teammates or not screaming for help every time which tell the enemy his location and annoy teammates.

Still seems kinda boring to play as civilian

​@@-RandomStranger-give him a gun, maybe like a simple stock pistol

​@@-RandomStranger- Try playing

@@-RandomStranger- matches are short and civilians are very involved with the gameplay. tf2c perfected the game mode in multiple ways

Because in TF2C(I did not had expirience with TF Classic) it litteraly takes one sniper or spy killing ONE GUY and BLU team push litteraly goes to garbage. And if we have to deal with less experience player. What? You gonna change vip just because this guy did not crouch or look back every 5 seconds?

Pretty sure his melee works the exact same as Scout's bat

Nearly all of the footage in this video is of tf2 classic

@@babbygremlinNope, it’s TF2 gameplay that just uses TF2Classic’s Civilian as a model. Some players use live TF2 exclusive weapons (such as the Wrangler) and there’s no Morale Boost seen anywhere in the video

You could votekick civilians in TFC on any server worth their salt through AMX Mod, or an active admin presence. You'd lose the miniround, but someone could then change to Civilian. Also, there were team size & class restrictions in Hunted which for whatever reason this video makes absolutely no mention of which is mind-boggling to me. I would honestly take the video down because of that aspect alone if I were the creator because of how important it was to the game mode & how faulty of a comparison it becomes from the rip with this video's premise. Assassins were limited to snipers, capped at 5 total, and Bodyguards were HWG (Heavy), Sniper & Med with no cap. A lot of your criticisms are moot with this in mind. And yes, he could be killed with one shot which was part of the fun (and yes, I am talking about even _as_ the VIP, I played him a lot in TFC). It felt like an actual Assassination attempt scenario & was super fun and interesting knowing you could be taken out at a moments notice if your bodyguards weren't doing their job. Also, because you only ran the risk of any potential encounter being a sniper, 5 max, if you ran into them in the field you had a real chance to beat them as Civilian, especially if teammates were around. It wouldn't be like running into an enemy Heavy, or any other power class where you'd be as good as dead. Also, you can hold the flag in CTF to grief, so no that's not the only mode a single player can make a team lose.

@@SnackPatrol Shounic probably didn't mention those restrictions because...well that just even further inflates the issue of being too dependent on specific classes existing to the point of straight-up forcing you to play those classes. Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.

@@maxtube1952 No, he didn't mention those restrictions because he didn't do a thorough job on this video, and I guarantee you he didn't realize Assassins were capped at 5 because it doesn't exist on a wiki & you'd have to have played the game. To not acknowledge that the TF2 ports of the map were absent of these restrictions makes 0 sense as a foundation for a comparison. I knew I'd run into this "forced" line of thinking- that's just the game mode bro. The class & team comp restrictions are the ruleset & are what make it fun, & balanced. Do people cry "Omg we are *forced* to only use melee weapons in medieval? How can a game mode be good when I am *forced* away from blah blah" like bro that's just the ruleset. Ok so it limits a class? So what? So does VSH. Payload limits the time to cap. TF2 limits max players. Medieval limits weapons. The Express lane at the supermarket limits purchases. Just because something limits something doesn't mean it's bad.

@@SnackPatrol if you need to basically play a diffrent game for the gamemode to work the gamemode doesnt work the way i see you describe it the gamemode could work in something like CS(defuse is basically escort with extra steps)

@@zjanez2868 ...Huh? TF has always been about varied game modes. VSH is as different as they come and was made official. All of the class & team size restrictions (which should be viewed as a "ruleset") are possible in TF2 with Sourcemod and/or Vscript. I ran a server and enabled the class resrictions on sd_hunted, a variant of Hunted, literally 12 years ago in TF2 and it worked & was fun, though the team size limit would have balanced it moreso. In fact having those restrictions would allow a mapper to repurpose one of the unused classes to Civilian, along with the player model and all other changes with Vscript. Have you never heard of TF2C? They proved VIP mode could be done. Also you clearly dont know your history, VIP mode (essentially this, but equipped with a pistol) is an official game mode in CS 1.6 with as_oilrig.

No grenade spam? In TFC?

@@TheTdw2000 There were no grenade pickups on Hunted or at least I think so Most of the Non CTF maps had limited amount of grenades that you can only get in a designated location on a map Like near the building that because first control point on DustBowl

I was waiting for that to be mentioned all video. The class bans in TFC Escort were important to why it worked. It was the only time I ever played sniper in TFC:) I couldnt imagine trying to be civilian if you were worried about spies and every other class in the game coming at you.

@@davidmacdonald1855 Also not only class bans but the limit of 5 snipers max to the Assassins team, which no one ever mentions. The fact though that he made no mention of the class, or team size restrictions, played the TF2 "ports" (which couldn't have started off more faulty of a comparison from the rip because of the lack of said restrictions) shows he didn't play the map IMO & I can't take anyone seriously who doesn't preface their video with that type of information and makes an entire video without at least addressing that aspect in the TF2 ports. The vid reads like "I went on a wiki & Googled stuff and I'm going to pretend like I'm an expert." Also, friendly grenade knockback, and being able to stand on your team was important in Hunted. It literally allowed you to use the vent route by getting a boost from a bodyguard teammate, then using a friendly grenade to propel you up and onto the floor above. It was also great to get you across the field to the cap point quickly.

@@SnackPatrol welcome to 80% of youtube bro

Yea bad players are found in every gamemode

@@lassebangsgaard9422 thing is, most of the time, a few bad players doesn't automatically define your odds. tf2's 12v12 format is a blessing that allows the potential to carry (plus the whole pub-push thing). here, if the civ is shit, your team might as well wave the white flags (unless it's like tf2c and there's a vote to swap civ to another player).

​@@thespringlock1794 you can have 3 spies + 3 meds + 3 snipers. Good players, but weak classes. Also reminds you valve has invented revolutionary technology - voice/text chat. Just tell your civilian to go with you or not going in to fight for no reason.

On tf2c they also have option to change vip by voting making bad player forced to get kicked on to diffirent class

Crasher is awesome, I wish it got put into the casual map pool and wasn't stuck in Scream Fortress purgatory

Yeah crasher works bevause the guy with the bomb can still fight back, and doesn’t get shredded instantly. The team is incentivised to keep him alive because he’s their best defence against the other team.

Can't wait to try it this October!! :D

Yeah it’s called “Stop That Tank”

On the custom weapons server you can actually have multiple VIPs on your team and choose to play as him just like any other class

@@maxwelldegn6651 You can do that on offline servers too, just open up your own server, go to console and type the command tf2c_allow_special_classes 1. With a few more commands you can have civilian only teams as well

How they solved the issue of boring gemplay for civilian?

​@@realdragonCivilian has the ability to buff your teammates with his melee umbrella, so you can simply deem an opponent worthy of becoming a murder machine and watch the carnage

​​​​@@realdragon TF2 Classic star game mode is VIP, where BLU has to escort the Civilian so he can capture all control points before the time runs out while RED tries to stop that until the time runs out and, if possible, *assassinate the Civilian.* The Civilian provides near teammates a 20% dmg resistance and a passive health regen of 5 hp/s that increases to up to 15 hp/s, buffs that can still be active through walls (Civ also self heals, but still takes full dmg). Civilian can also mini-crit boost a single teammate every few seconds for mass massacre and +35% heal rate (24 > ~31 hp/s) and Über production (2.5 > ~3.4%/s) for Medics. As Civilian, you also value more your life, as him dying decreases BLU's timer by 30 secs (20 in vip_mineside) and his killer gets guaranteed full Crits for a few seconds. Thus, forcing BLU to stick to Civ for those sweet passives and boosts. Basically, being Civ actually takes some brain and decision making on who you should boost or stick with in order to win, making you part of the slaughter with the right decisions. But if you whiff, you can end in very bad situations or even assist in your own death by boosting a Spy. The best targets for boosts are Heavies, Soldiers and Medics where the best companions are also Heavies and Pyros.

@@realdragon The civilian was actually pretty fun to play imo. Sure you didn't have many weapons, but hitting people to death while ubered is pretty cool, it's also fun to give special effects and push in with your teammates when the time is right.

@@realdragon They didn't really. You give some passive buffs to teammates, and you can occasionally give minicrit buffs to select team members, but the core loop is still to just stand back and let your team do all of the work for you. The main appeal of playing as Civ in TF2C is just how rare it is that you get the chance to, if he was just a normal class people wouldn't really care outside of "wow new class".

This used to be a pretty common gag back in the day, though I don't remember exactly when it stopped working lol

@@SHUTDOWNOfficial idk when it stopped

Yep, and the tf2c civilian model was planned for that gamemode originaly.

I need to see footage of that, sounds neat

@@SocknessMonster this would be 2007 stuff as Payload was added in literally the first ever major update to TF2 so I don't think there would be footage

@@purpleapple4052 Hunted was never finished and thus the model never used.

Not so much a copy as a derivative. TFC wasn't a huge game then - it was just a little side project, without a great deal of funding. Adapting an existing map was a way to get the development time down.

What did he mean by this

​@@Ossimsauce what did he mean by this

What did he mean by this

What did he mean by this

What he did this mean by

GRAND FEST FUTURE GANG 🎉🎉🎉

They could add setup time on this mode if there isn't, very simple fix Though civ might maybe need sentry resistance or something

I like your pfp

@@gabarjomagross

@@gabarjoma thanks you 🙏

I think you might've re-invented CTF ;3 That said, I see the difference is that the suitcase you are proposing changes the merc mechanics?

In team fortress classic hunted (not the old TF2 custom plugin Hunter), bodyguards could only be Heavies, Soldiers, and Medics Assassins could only be Snipers

The stock Hunted map only allowed Snipers (5 max) as Assassins, *however* down the line at some point servers modded it to allow spies, mainly (from what I saw), and I guess you may have seen Pyros as well though I don't remember that myself. Mostly seen solely spies added to Assassins. Your recollection of BG's is correct though- HWG (Heavies), Soldier & Med, + Civilian.

The Uncivil-ian

Tf2 juggernaut mode

Versus Saxton Hale(s).

I would prefer that Saxton Hale remained team neutral but at the same time Valve already made it so only the red team attacks Saxton hale so 🤷

Im part living a lie... a HALFLIFE IF YOU WIIL.

​@bulletkin_etg yes from "forget about Freeman" or "Surface tension." I believe.

c2a5e

It took a lot of geometry from it, yes, but it's not an exact copy.

Rather it is but modified, TFC in reality is just massive HL1 modification

"was" TF2C is alive and kicking! I frequent EU servers, and vip maps like badwater, mineside and blackshore are commonly played there (along with upward, koth maps and arena_flask). People like those!

I think these are great ideas, maybe a damageless fast charging sydney sleeper

Cool idea, but what if we took it one step further by giving civvie a dispencers? PD gives team leaders a dispencer, so why not the civvie?

​@@AngelfromRun3 Yep! I would say it'd be better if it only dispensed to his active patient though- A special medigun exclusive to the civvie. That way he stays engaged at all times, dishing out ammo and health. (we want to avoid making him a walking building)

The reason tf2 is such a fun team based game is because teamwork is heavily de-emphasized

To be fair babysitting the cart is nearly the same as babysitting a point while you cap it

Payload is way better than attack defend because the point of interest is constantly moving through the map you don't have the problem of turtling engineers making point capture impossible. You have a constantly moving healing and ammo source that allows you to continue to push

Pl extinction seems to pull it off. Not sure why valve hasn’t added it yet

@@nigeladams8321 Every last point in any payload map is infested with engineers, all though I do agree that pushing the payload isn't really as bad as it's made out to be, honestly at all times different people are pushing it, it's never really just one person (all though it can be)

@@IgorNetoAnimation yeah I get what you mean, I just think the cart being a dispenser helps a lot with the pushing in that case

Super weird that shounic uses TF2 Classic gameplay, or at the very least their Civilian model, but the mod is mentioned literally nowhere in this video. He just kind of pretends it doesn't exist.

Saints Row 1 mentioned

NPC

@@gabelolll yeah yeah whatever.

Wait what? Overwatch had a workshop?

Also two more changes One, before someone accepts the role let them choose if they want it Two, if the vip doesn’t leave spawn, sits still the whole time, or doesn’t do much it gets passed to someone random, also make it so they can vote to change the vip,

The better way is you have a decently large open map, with smaller team sizes overall, the civilian dying means he respawns at the last respawn point you captured, same for his team, he cannot be healed in any way except for preset locations on the map, his own special health packs, and he cannot be ubered, he's just very tanky and decently fast, this means that you will wear him down over time so the game stays pretty aggressive, after that the last major component would be to make sure the civilian knows how to navigate the map well enough thsy he's not just guessing where his goal is, which can be accomplished with having a couple different extraction points, ideally with him needing to be in a capture zone for a short time to use one, and to have them highlighted through the map like Intel is

civilian is just doing amoungus style tasks around the map to aquire buffs for teammates