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Why do the books (and movies) never actually say Dumbledore is Gay? 

Fandom Musings
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Why does Dumbledore never tell anyone he’s gay? Why does it never come up?
Well, the answer depends on what media analysis lens you are using to answer that question.
Hello! Welcome to the party. Today, I want to talk about Doylist and Watsonian analysis and how those can be used to tackle a variety of different media questions. I know, it seems thrilling, but it’s not as dense as it sounds.
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22 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 253   
@CC-jg1cp
@CC-jg1cp 6 лет назад
This is why all those skimpy outfits on kids in anime can’t be totally justified with “oh but she CHOSE to wear that” or “oh but her POWERS require it” because, maybe you can agree with those sentiments as headcanons, but when people are seriously critiquing these things they’re really critiquing the AUTHORS choice. Sure, characters can make choices for themselves on a textual level, but on a metatextual level someone has always made them make those choices, and in the context of critique ignoring that isn’t useful
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
C C exactly! In a doylist lens, characters cant CHOOSE anything. They are products of their creators.
@Snommelp
@Snommelp 6 лет назад
I was going to say the exact same thing. And I can't help but feel like, even if Doylist and Watsonian terminology isn't used, the defenders are well aware of what they're doing. When I suggest that a woman video game character is wearing impractical clothing because the game designer is a perv or is catering to a perv audience (Doylist), responding that it's the character's choice (Watsonian) is a transparent deflection.
@MarkFilipAnthony
@MarkFilipAnthony 6 лет назад
True but simply to make a counter-argument for the sake of making a counter-argument: isn't any narrative and visual there to please the narrator and/or the audience? Or should any story mainly serve the characters wants or needs I think the video brings up the interesting conflict between who is the story made for: The reader, and the reader's needs or is it the characters and their needs? And is there a right and/or wrong balance between these two? What's the balance between mindless pleasing entertainment and moral reasoning with fictional characters?
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
MarkFilipAnthony this seems to forget that, in the question of female objectification, women are ALSO part of the audience and that kind of creative choice is not for our benefit.
@MarkFilipAnthony
@MarkFilipAnthony 6 лет назад
Fandom Musings that's true, but women has also the freedoms to sexualise and objectify men in their fiction and stories. Or which or whatever turns the audience and the storyteller on. Everyone has the choice to choose to support, critic and judge a piece of entertainment. I am not saying objecting for pleasing an audience is a good thing, I am only asking the question what the purpose of entertainment is if it's not to please the target audience? I agree that good stories follow good characters and narratives that goes beyond simple eye candy, because a rewarding story to tends to be more satisfactional than simple sexual desire through a characters looks. One should also always acknowledge that these are fictional characters never represent real life or real beauty standards, only fictional. But like I said, it was a question for the arguments sake, not to make a statement on pro objectifying or agains objectifying fictional characters. To ask the The question: what is the purpose of fiction in the first place?
@gabbyabbott4965
@gabbyabbott4965 6 лет назад
I just feel like Rowling only said Dumbledore is gay as a late disingenuous gesture to appear modern and “woke”. She didn’t think of his sexuality until after she wrote and published the books. That how I feel as a bisexual woman anyways. If there are actual quotes backing up Dumbledore’s sexuality, please share them. Edit: however I feel like the situation could be rectified in the new movie coming out by giving Dumbledore a loving boyfriend.
@ynysafalon
@ynysafalon 5 лет назад
Yes! This! And she keeps doing this in order to grab inclusivity points. For instance, a tweet she replied to asking if there were Jewish students at Hogwarts, and she gave them a single, random name that may or may not have even been mentioned in the books. She keeps making things up after the fact in order to seem "woke" and inclusive, but doesn't ever expound on any of it - or if she does, she does so sloppily and in ways that run contrary to what she wants to achieve (eg: her explanation for why there was no strife between the colonizing English wizards and Native Americans when she released the Ilvermorny materials; it just came off as uneducated and "look how un-racist my creations are!!").
@kingston6008
@kingston6008 3 года назад
@@ynysafalon yea I feel like she is following that high school musical 2 director type ish like giving thought to a characters sexuality to give clarity to fans
@indedgames4359
@indedgames4359 2 года назад
I do t thinkso. Its a fact that she planed out her world and characters long ago and duribg the writing of the poterbooks.Dumbledore being gay Was all over the books hell in book 7 when you read about his and grindelwalds relation to each other you see how much in love he Was...but Sure you only saw friendship
@soundtrack1405
@soundtrack1405 2 года назад
Because they wouldn't accept it back then. Tell me any film, series where an important good character is gay and i don't mean a comedy show.
@db2939
@db2939 Год назад
@@indedgames4359lolll Rowling didn’t plan anything she’s full of shit😂 if you pay attention half of her “pre-planned” plot lines are just plot holes she throws band-aids on because she realizes after the fact that it didn’t make any sense.
@Stephen-Fox
@Stephen-Fox 6 лет назад
Incidentally, I detest the excuse I keep seeing made for her that 'since she was writing the books in the 90s, she couldn't possibly have made Dumbledore any more explicitly gay in the books' - Very glad you pointed out in a text blub towards the end that his homosexuality doesn't come up because JK didn't want it to come up. She was writing in the UK, during the time period when the children's television show Grange Hill had a gay teacher in it. Children's literature gets way more leeway for representation, especially of sexualities, than children's television. She could have absolutely had a line where Dumbledore mentions his ex in the context of being his ex. Particularly when conversing with Harry about his ex.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
Gizensha Fox RIGHT? And yeah, maybe the first few books would have been tough to get it published. But in 2007? And whats the excuse NOW for the new movies?
@BadgerPride89
@BadgerPride89 6 лет назад
Heck, you could've just had Rita Skeeter bring it up in her book explicitly because seriously, why the hell from a Watsonian perspective WOULDN'T she say it?
@CuleChick11
@CuleChick11 6 лет назад
Right!? Because people admitting they are gay in private wasn't invented until the 200s? Or films can't show characters in private moments? Just because something is set in a certain period, doesn't mean we have to adopt the prejudices of that time period.
@mysweetpiano9945
@mysweetpiano9945 5 лет назад
didn't you know gay people didn't exist in the 90's? stay woke
@Ranger1812
@Ranger1812 5 лет назад
Gizensha Fox Except that isn't who Dumbledore is. Especially after his split from Grindelwald, he led a very bookish and celibate life. Having him explicitly say he loved Grindelwald isn't realistic, it's serving your own insecurities. You don't need to specifically say something. That's not how life works. Stop pushing your own wants and ideals onto others. Let Dumbledore be Dumbledore.
@slavmetal
@slavmetal 6 лет назад
JKR never intended to make him gay. She may have thought it when writing the character, but it was never meant to be textual. Instead of just admitting that her books are not very diverse and moving on, she had to "play woke". Dumbledore is convenient -- he's old and not really a main character. If she'd said that, I don't know, Ron was bi, it would have been harder to lie about why it never came up. The whole "Harry is oblivious and the book is from his perspective" argument is bs; as you so well explained, he doesn't notice because JKR never wrote him noticing. She could have very easily added a "I loved him" in the King's Cross scene, or she could have had Harry overhear an adult mention it (a device the books frequently used). She simply never intended to.
@lexi2310
@lexi2310 6 лет назад
Because what would that have to do with the plot, Dumbledore's sexuality?
@slavmetal
@slavmetal 6 лет назад
Lexi A lot of stuff happens in the books that doesn't have to do with the direct, main plot, but how Dumbledore felt about Grindewald is kind of central to his story. That's not really my point though, I don't care if he's gay or not. My issue is JKR claiming his sexuality as diversity points after the fact when she didn't write him as gay in the first place and never intended to.
@Flowtail
@Flowtail 5 лет назад
Nena i guess you could say he was never... **puts on shades** ...textual sexual
@slavmetal
@slavmetal 5 лет назад
@@Flowtail I love this 😂
@LeondreWilsono0o
@LeondreWilsono0o 4 года назад
@@slavmetal So let's just say she always knew Dumbledore was gay right? But mind you back then homosexuality was ridiculed and outcasted if there even would have been a mention of homosexuality scholastic and boards of education would have never and I mean NEVER have approved the book for school libraries PERIOD. Idk how old you are but when I was in school saying the word gay whether it was to insult someone or not! Would have got you in trouble I had friend named Taylor her parents are gay men and when she told me that the teacher over heard and she got in trouble for saying my dad's are gay this was back I elementary 2006! Considering the Harry Potter franchise was marketed for kids and marketing Homosexuals to kids back then was the equivalent to spreading the plague so I dont think even if JKR wanted to make any of her characters gay she could have with out jeopardizing her writing career. I mean she really could have if she wanted to but let's be real and ask yourself this: If she would have even put the word gay (in terms of homosexuality not happiness) in any of the books do you honestly believe it would have garnered the success it has made? Do you honestly believe it would have spawned into 1 of the greatest film franchises in cinematic history? But I do not believe Dumbledore was supposed to be gay but she never explicitly said he was straight either he had no female lovers so.... what's the harm in him being gay? I mean call it queer baiting all you want but as a gay man who has been a fan of the series since he was 5 I am happy that the greatest character in the franchise can now represent the LGBT community.
@valeriavagapova
@valeriavagapova 5 лет назад
Just wanted to say, thank you so much for captioning your videos! It's rare to see it on smaller channels especially. This is the first video I'm watching of yours but I will definitely check out more.
@lintwizardly5654
@lintwizardly5654 6 лет назад
This is such a great video! I never knew the proper definitions for Watsonian and Doyalist analysis before but as someone who's interested in being informed and knowledgeable about how i consume and talk about film and literature they're really helpful terms that you've expressed with concise and famillar examples.
@joedo8052
@joedo8052 6 лет назад
I feel like Rowling made it up, after she was successfull and couldnt go wrong with anything. So it feels a bit shady. Especially since he isnt gay in the 'new movie'
@MsDoctorWhoFan1
@MsDoctorWhoFan1 5 лет назад
Joe Do Dumbledore mentions he and Grindlewald were closer than brothers
@mollyconnelly5309
@mollyconnelly5309 4 года назад
Yo he is so gay in the new movie
@aandrewa4238
@aandrewa4238 2 года назад
Not expressings one sexuality doesnt mean ur not gay...
@jerrychen4348
@jerrychen4348 2 года назад
and vice versa
@dylanlewis3038
@dylanlewis3038 6 лет назад
I think it’s just that Rowling didn’t intend to make him gay. She revealed that fact once things started winding down. Now that people know Dumbledore is gay, they look for that evidence in the books, and they see it. But if someone reads the books, without that knowledge, they won’t really see any hints at him being gay. We see what we want to see.
@kingston6008
@kingston6008 3 года назад
Exactly now people want to start connecting. Things that have no correlation with sexuality to make things make sense
@plzleavemealone9660
@plzleavemealone9660 2 года назад
I did as a kid and thought they were more then just "friends". Just make Dumbledore a woman and read it again. If Dumbledore was a woman no one would think there was nothing between them. I mean their story sounds like a cliche bad boy good girl tragic live story. And I didn't even know what being "gay" was back then. Just thought he seemed to have had a crush on Grindelwald.
@puuhamato6294
@puuhamato6294 2 года назад
Dumbledore is not gay. Never hinted in the Harry Potter books. Also, it's irrelevant
@HoboTheHenry
@HoboTheHenry 2 года назад
It’s never said because dumbledore wasn’t gay, she just said he was to look woke
@codde5489
@codde5489 6 лет назад
wow I just found your channel and I love it! Very good analysis, very easy to understand. Subscribed.
@samsmith1358
@samsmith1358 6 лет назад
I thought jkrowling announced dumbledore was gay in order to to piss off homophobes....because the first time I read the text, I did not read anything gay into it, but presumed dumbledore had lost a good friend. It was not until rowling made the gay announcement, I could read back the text and go, “ yeah. Ok. It can be read as losing your love interest, too.” Just for added depth of character sake, i (personally) would Liked to have read overt evidence of dumbledore being gay. As it stands, if Rowling did not make the comment, his sexuality would not even have crossed my mind.
@stolasish1184
@stolasish1184 4 года назад
This video has actually helped me a whole bunch when thinking and arguing about culture, thanks!
@SantosAl
@SantosAl 6 лет назад
Harry Potter didn't need to mention that dumbles was gay, however Fantastic Beasts needs it if Grindelwald and Dumbledore are an important part of the story.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
S.A. i mean, arguably it was important in HP too. Theres a whole subplot about dumbles in book 7
@gamep9971
@gamep9971 4 года назад
Yes his story is deeply touched in majority of the series in HP. This whole gay things made storyline weird, left a bad taste
@DGS_1992
@DGS_1992 3 года назад
Dumbledore was never meant to be gay, but the constant pressure to be “woke” took its toll on JK, if Dumbledore was indeed gay it would have definitely been more clearer in the movies and not twisted to fit today’s narrative, sorry my fellow SJWs and LBGTQRSTUVWXYZ ...... friends, hate to break it to y’all..
@chiefwiggem325
@chiefwiggem325 6 лет назад
Very insightful. I like it.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
Thank you!
@peb1995
@peb1995 5 лет назад
I just want to say that this was a very nice video to listen and watch. You have just earned yourself a new subscriber!
@BadgerPride89
@BadgerPride89 6 лет назад
Thank you for such a great summary of the main issues. I want to like the Fantastic Beasts series but this decision not to bring up the giant dragon in the room is really putting me off of going to see the next film.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
It's not the ONLY reason I'm feeling frustrated with the series right now (Sticking with Depp AND the completely broken world building don't help) but it really is the final straw.
@BadgerPride89
@BadgerPride89 6 лет назад
Oh, massively agree on those two issues. Seriously, why wasn't Farrell just cast as Grindelwald/the main villain, he was playing the dude the entire movie and I thought he was fantastic. The world-building for American wizards should've been triply checked by various American fans to make sure it wasn't awful before she published anything about it. This bit really is the final nail for my enthusiasm.
@user-ev5gj8xe2b
@user-ev5gj8xe2b 6 лет назад
I didn't know there was a word for my critical way at looking at works!! Thank you!!
@isabellacross224
@isabellacross224 2 года назад
It was a last minute thought and also to please people, she should have written it in the books implying that he is gay
@bimboification
@bimboification 6 лет назад
I thought she announced Dumbledore’s sexuality BECAUSE of Fantastic Beasts. But he’s not going to be shown actually loving his bf in the movie, even though it’s a prequel? That doesn’t make any sense, especially when the public is now getting accustomed to minority films such as Black Panther, Wonder Woman and Love Simon. Yes, we want LGBT representation, but someone should tell Rowling that this isn’t how you do it. Also, homophobic backlash definitely shouldn’t have been an issue for Rowling. The series was already insanely popular, and she gets enough backlash from weird Christian parents bc of “hooo fictional magic is bad for children”. It’s pretty clear she’s just pulling this out of her sleeve.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
Agreed. Yeah, no, the reveal that he was gay came in 2007, a few months after publication, loong before the FB movies were on the table.
@flannelsarah4992
@flannelsarah4992 3 года назад
Great explanation!!
@DiseasedDreams
@DiseasedDreams 4 года назад
I always considered Dumbledore as more of an asexual. Someone who is more focused on teaching others about magic, than making sexual relationships.
@aandrewa4238
@aandrewa4238 2 года назад
um then you're wrong because he's gay.... what you think isnt right. Just because someone is dedicated to their job doesn't mean their asexual...... that's quite offensive to imply. what ru even talking about?
@coleguitar2233
@coleguitar2233 2 года назад
@@aandrewa4238 he is abcenent in the way a shaolin monk or a nun would be
@KeatonBonner
@KeatonBonner 2 года назад
@@aandrewa4238 he's not gay get mad about it
@aandrewa4238
@aandrewa4238 2 года назад
@@KeatonBonner He is gay, since the Author made it canon by her own words, and in the epilogue of fantastic beasts :) It's official, it's done, he is gay and not straight
@aandrewa4238
@aandrewa4238 2 года назад
@@KeatonBonner I'm not mad about it, I know it. You can't just deny something because you don't like it, that's just called being delusional. You probably weirdly get mad and infuriated at the fact that people get turned on by the same sex that your willing to say a fact is a lie, when the only lie is what your saying.
@polnapanties
@polnapanties 6 лет назад
Damn, I learned something today. Thanks. P.S I read the Percy Jackson books and loved them.
@kengisamasempisankun
@kengisamasempisankun 6 лет назад
AWESOME VID! 2 please
@OneCatholicSpeaks
@OneCatholicSpeaks 6 лет назад
Thanks for clearing that up (I'm serious about that… thanks). I've had to deal with this in regards to Star Trek (I am a fan). I've noticed that (without being aware of the terminology ), ST fans have polarized into the two sides. This is especially true with Star Trek: Discovery which has violated canon (from a Watsonian perspective) very difficult (practically not even an attempt to make this level coherent. I personally believe in a balance of the two.
@TheInnerSanctuary
@TheInnerSanctuary 6 лет назад
THANK YOU. OMG
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
Sassy Gay Justice lol. You are very welcome.
@aname5552
@aname5552 5 лет назад
dumbledore wore a fucking dress and dread knitting magazines in the movies.
@ddiegoo
@ddiegoo 2 года назад
So, when is it mentioned in the books and in the movies that Dumbledore is Straight?
@jackdrawsold4301
@jackdrawsold4301 6 лет назад
actually, (in case nobody has said this) the reason steve burns left was because he had to. he was going bald, and since they didn't want the character to age, steve had to move on to new things. I'm sure he was also ready to move on, but the balding was the real reason.
@Lexi_Zone
@Lexi_Zone 6 лет назад
I had to debate with myself over whether to bring this up or not, but... Not long after this video came out, there was quite a curfuffle on the net around J.K. Rowling "liking" a rather transphobic post on Twitter. One of her representatives came out and said it was an accident (calling it a "middle-aged moment"), but if you look further into it, it's more like a repeating pattern. There's a very detailed article about it on Medium.com called "J.K. Rowling: The Blatant Transphobia Of A Beloved Social Justice Hero", if anyone wants to read it for themselves. She's definitely taken a stand for people of color and people in the gay and lesbian communities in the past, but now, whenever I see someone bring up LGBT+ things in regards to her works, I can't help thinking about this "incident" and wondering if her tolerance gives out around the third letter in the acronym. Anyway, I'm not going to call her outright transphobic for liking tweets, but it's worth reading the article and making up your own mind if you're discussing the idea of LGBT+ elements being in her works.
@spookisghostly4619
@spookisghostly4619 6 лет назад
Did you buy the new Apollo book
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
I did! I'm in the middle of it right now, actually.
@deadman746
@deadman746 Год назад
Because he wasn't until Rowling decided he was. The first scene in _Philosopher's Stone_ has him blushing and getting all twitterpated when a witch compliments him. He also had pretty flagrantly heterosexual body language around witches in the first movie. Now, maybe he was supposed to be bi. That would work. And that's sort of gay these days, though back in the 1970s and 1980s bisexuals were treated terribly by gay people, who sneeringly said, "Pick a side!" It was a serious political battle to get the B in the alphabet soup. L got to be first because political lesbianism or at least the pretense thereof was so popular in the inaccurately named _second-wave_ feminism. Whatever. In any case, Dumbledore was definitely not exclusively or even primarily homosexual. Most likely, Rowling's declaration that he was gay was part of the process of becoming a TERF and political blowhard, which rather ironically is just another recrudescence of the values common in that _second-wave_ feminism.
@tiffanyshuman6619
@tiffanyshuman6619 6 лет назад
Can you do a face reveal? That would be so awesome. I love your voice and have watched a few videos. Just found you today.
@mylifeisdinosaurthemed2883
@mylifeisdinosaurthemed2883 5 лет назад
Good news everyone, Joanne Kathleen just announced that I'm gay
@MrParkerman6
@MrParkerman6 5 лет назад
She said it was so "More Worldy" people could see him as gay, but young children could see it as him just making a friend, something like that.
@user-eo4xe4gz7w
@user-eo4xe4gz7w 5 лет назад
Homophobic backlash: *exists * Uncle Rick: hold my blue Diet Coke
@missregal_
@missregal_ 4 года назад
In her "year in the life" documentary she did a few years ago when J. K Rowling talked about dumbledore being gay, she kinda talks about how it's more "implied" through the story of him and Grindlewald, and that adults would know what's up, kids would just think they were good friends. I think the only reason why this occured and was only implied rather than said outright in the text because a lot of people consider the books to be "for children", so there would have been a lot of homophobic backlash and ignorance from people. She probably wanted to keep her books safe from that. However.... I don't think that is good enough for the movies. JKR and Warner bros should have included that story in the films. It would have made so much more sense to eleborate on it and talk about it. It would have made a huge difference... It could have been amazing. It was extremely disappointing and a huge let down to hear that that was a choice that was made, and I decided immediately after that that I didn't care about the fantastic beasts movies if that was what they were going to do with them.
@pgplaysvidya
@pgplaysvidya 3 года назад
so doylism and watsonism is like wrestling's kayfabe?
@EmilyCheetham
@EmilyCheetham 5 лет назад
How do disabled people get into their dorm rooms people might ask. May answer would be “probably with magic”.
@boyciewoycie
@boyciewoycie 6 лет назад
My opinion on this has always been that Rowling did not consider Dumbledore's sexuality when originally creating his character. From a LOT of re-reading of Harry Potter 1-7, I've "marked" Dumbledore's sexuality as not being noticeably gay until about book 5. I imagine this created a sort of catch 22 where it was concerned. If it was suddenly mentioned this far into the series, it might look as if Rowling was suddenly grasping desperately for representation she didn't write in before (the Cho Chang effect). If she wrote it in as if it had always been there, she would have likely would have been seen as mishandling the situation all together. If it had been written into the Kings Cross scene in Deathly Hallows, I personally would have read it as a "plot twist" and making someone's sexuality a plot twist is very very shaky ground. I'm not defending Rowling at all by the way, if Dumbledore was gay he should have been clearly canonically gay from the beginning. Mentioning it after the fact and then never having it appear in canon material creating after the original book series makes it seem like the first problem I mentioned, her striving for representation that wasn't there originally.
@heizenberg2941
@heizenberg2941 4 года назад
Answer=because he is not gay ?!
@adamrelliott4625
@adamrelliott4625 3 года назад
Dumbledore never says he is gay because it is something that JK Rowling made up to try and please the lgbt community.
@kingston6008
@kingston6008 3 года назад
Something with with high school musical 2 with the baseball scene trying give lgbt community the limelight even tho it had nothing to do with sexuality
@DGS_1992
@DGS_1992 3 года назад
Bingo
@aandrewa4238
@aandrewa4238 2 года назад
No but jk rowling made dumbledore up so he is gay.... and has a say on his character since SHE is the author.
@aandrewa4238
@aandrewa4238 2 года назад
It's also added to the fantastic beast movie so therefore it is part of the story
@aandrewa4238
@aandrewa4238 2 года назад
@@DGS_1992 No but jk rowling made dumbledore up so he is gay.... and has a say on his character since SHE is the author.
@samwallaceart288
@samwallaceart288 6 лет назад
First off: why not use “diegesis” vs “non-diegesis” as the terminology? Those are already established words specifically defined for this purpose. Second: exactly how does non-diegetic analysis of the stairway accessibility issues differ from that of lgbt issues? Both of them are intentional blank spots on Rowling’s part that also have possible in-world explanations; the difference is not nearly as obvious to me.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
SamWallace Artisan I didnt event watsonian or doylist. Theyve been around for decades. Secondly, its not the question itseld that differs, but the context of the discussion. Critique vs headcanon.
@CuleChick11
@CuleChick11 6 лет назад
Diegesis is a term typically for the analysis of film and film-making, and refers to whether or not it is a part of the cannon world, or a signaler strictly for the audience. It is rarely used to refer to books (at least in my experience) and is used to determine WHETHER something is in-universe or not, rather than WHY something is in-universe or not.
@samwallaceart288
@samwallaceart288 6 лет назад
Cule Chick Good point
@CP-ll6qg
@CP-ll6qg 6 лет назад
Also, non-diegetic is usually used in criticism to describe stuff that is happening on stage/in film but that isn't meant to be read as actually occuring in the world of the narrative (ie, in the stage show Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, the narrator is onstage singing, but we know that she isn't really there in the main narrative). What's more, I think "Watsonian" hits at something specific about storytelling that diegetic doesn't cover, because Watson is himself a storyteller. So when we use the Watsonian lens, we can in good conscience stretch things a little to make them fit what we know or see in the real world, or to fit them into cultural contexts. If there were a such thing as the Holmesian lens, that would be the one devoted to using exclusively in-world clues about, say, Dumbledore's sexuality. People using this non existant Holmesian lens are the ones saying "hey this can't be right, there are literally no clues to indicate Dumbledore's queerness" where people using the Watsonian lens are saying "here's a way this could possibly have been true within the narrative if we expand/embellish on it using details that could have been part of the narrative, but weren't." And "diegetic/non diegetic" don't really capture that story-within-a-story as well.
@samwallaceart288
@samwallaceart288 6 лет назад
Caperk ! Fair points. Still doesn’t make Watsonian sound less contrived to me. I’d go with Textual and Meta-Textual, as that says what it actually is rather than making a culturally dependent reference. Then again, I *do* say “lit” instead of “legitimate”, so I’m not exactly a lexical referee.
@madbrothazknowmyname
@madbrothazknowmyname 2 года назад
The broke my childhood
@TimdeVisser86
@TimdeVisser86 6 лет назад
JK Rowling did not think of the possibility of disabled students. Or she did consider it and decided not to address it. This is the same as her treatment (or rather non-treatment) of LGBT folk in the text. Both are Doylist critiques, but they don't automatically dismiss headcanons that do address these questions. Do they? I can say JK Rowling didn't think or care about these issues without dismissing the issues themselves as unworthy of discussion.
@Mixinnitup
@Mixinnitup 5 лет назад
Just popping in to let you guys know that I'm a heterosexual male. I've dated women, have sex with women. REALLY not keen on the idea of doing that with men. So yeah... Straight guy here.
@MissTJOwnz
@MissTJOwnz 6 лет назад
I've always been a little cynical about JKR's post-series additions to the canon, especially in regards to minorities. Her revelation about Dumbledore's sexuality and her non-commital "open to interpretation" approach to Hermione's race rub me the wrong way. The way I see it, it comes down to pretending to appease a minority without risking the disapproval of the majority. She gives out these details in interviews or on twitter and people can say they're canon, but it doesn't affect the content of the books that are already in publication. People who don't like the idea of a gay Dumbledore or a black Hermione can read the books and think of them however they wish and they won't encounter hard proof that says otherwise. If they encounter people who try to challenge their interpretation, then all they have to do is go the purist route of canon interpretation and point out that the books lack evidence of the contrary and then they can continue with this interpretation. Meanwhile on the other side of it, people can say that they've got their representation/diversity and use these outside quotes as their backing and since these quotes do in fact come from the creator, it can be just as valid an argument for their canonicity depending on who you're talking to. It's a very safe way of coming across as progressive without risking the greatest amount of backlash. As you can tell by my wording, I don't really have much faith in the sincerity of her intentions. Anyways, great video, thanks for sharing.
@jerrychen4348
@jerrychen4348 2 года назад
For me, it doesn't really matter Dumbledore is Gay or not. The HP serials had finished. JKR might shaped him as a homosexuality, or the market want him to be. Best selling are not easy to come by, if "Dumbledore's secret" can actually arose the box office, why not then? As long as the storyline and the old serials are matched, that all i care about.
@zoetevka4653
@zoetevka4653 2 года назад
♥️♥️♥️
@steeldom1619
@steeldom1619 5 лет назад
Yeah, I'd like to disagree here. She knew exactly what she was doing when she announced the sexuality of Dumbledore afterwards and it was nothing short of scoring point for being oh so progressive. Let's look at another example in the books: Snape. We know Spane was deeply in love with Lily. That is a major plot point. It's something that I would even say defines the series since it's such a big reveal at the end. So, nowhere in the books do we find out what Snape sexuality is. We ASSUME he's straight. But he's never shown to actually have a relationship. He also never had one with Lily. So we don't know. And most importantly IT IS NOT IMPORTANT. Important is the fact that he very deeply cared for her (in his somewhat twisted way) and what impact that had on the story. Why would have the need to confirm that he was physically attracted to her? Again, it's not important. Same goes for Dumbledore and Grindelwald. They were very close. That's the information we have. Were they lovers or just extremely close friends? Or both? Who cares! The important part is the impact that the bond they had had on Dumbledore. Not the KIND of bond they shared. Why would it be different if they kissed or shagged? I cannot grasp why you people are so focused on representation when it doesn't serve the plot at all. All it does is being able to put a sticker on it and say: "Look there's one of us in there." Wow awesome. It's like saying the thing that you love most about Harry Potter is the fact that he is straight and in love with Ginny. Which would be pretty sad.
@tubecrazy3000
@tubecrazy3000 3 года назад
I think it’s stupid, turns this character into a joke. HATE it. One of the best characters, to have such a sharp change changes your perception on him.
@alexlangrock4225
@alexlangrock4225 6 лет назад
Want to upvote, but then it will have 70, not 69 likes. Please help.
@Niniane17
@Niniane17 5 лет назад
I am 100% sure that if Grindelwald had been a woman, the subplot would have been clearer. It is clear in the case of Snape and Lily, right? Or Voldemort or Bellatrix, Lupin and Tonks, even Hagrid and Madame Maxime! It's not like JK is subtle about these things. But no, suddenly when it comes to Dumbledore, it's all about secrecy and there was NO WAY to introduce it in the books, not even in the chapter when he was talking about Grindelwad's death. Say what? (I personally don't think the books handle the redemption theme very well, but still).
@tubecrazy3000
@tubecrazy3000 3 года назад
Because he wasn’t gay then lol. JK went woke and just decided to make a romance where no romance needed to be.
@thegarunixking1101
@thegarunixking1101 5 лет назад
Jumping off your brief mention of disabled students at Hogwarts, I think the answer may just be that the magical world simply doesn't have them, or at least, it doesn't have younger people in them. Let me explain. In a page on Pottermore, discussing sickness and illness in the Potterverse, JK Rowling said something to the effect that magic can solve mundane problems easily, but it can't necessarily solve magical ailments in a snap. For instance, when Harry has his bones removed, he grows them back in a night, but wounds caused by dark magic, curse wounds, generally can't be healed. That's the case with Harry's scar, and Mad-Eye Moody's... everything. Judging by this logic, I see no reason why someone who was, say, paralyzed in a non-magic accident, and would be confined to a wheelchair, wouldn't be able to be healed by magic. Or they could just, you know, _Wingardium Leviosa_ themself up the staircase. They literally teach that spell to first years.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 5 лет назад
I mean, I would argue that "well, magic disabled people just don't exist/ disabled people can't have magic" to be....insulting at the least.
@thegarunixking1101
@thegarunixking1101 5 лет назад
I wasn't saying that disabled people can't have magic, I'm saying that magic can either help or downright cure disabilities.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 5 лет назад
@@thegarunixking1101 so, you're arguing that disabled witches dont exist.
@thegarunixking1101
@thegarunixking1101 5 лет назад
I'm saying there wouldn't be any, yes. I'm not trying to denigrate the experience of anyone who is disabled, I'm just stating the fact that, given the capability of medicine in the wizarding world, people with disabilities would be able to receive treatment that would, in essence, alleviate their disability entirely, rendering them no longer disabled. Isn't it a good thing that these people can be helped to the maximum potential? If, say, in the real world, we managed to discover ways to completely fix blindness, paralysis, cancer, everything, would _that_ be "insulting at the least"? No, it'd just be medicine.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 5 лет назад
@@thegarunixking1101 1. Thats super complicated depending on the disability. Many deaf advocates for example, would take umbridge with the idea that their subculture and communities should be eliminated. 2. The idea that all disabilities can just be wand waved away means that there's no representation for disabled people in the series AND 3. Mad Eye totally has prosthetics. So clearly not all disabilities can be wholly cured.
@EmilyCheetham
@EmilyCheetham 5 лет назад
One of the reasons it’s not specifically stated “I’m gay” is because it doesn’t matter to the story. We find out dumbledor was in love with grindelwald so it is shown in that that he is gay but there is no need to tell everyone he is gay so why waste a page on the subject when it is unimportant to moving the story along and the books are long enough.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 5 лет назад
His relationship with Grindlewald was a major subplot of the 7th book. And not everything in a story works in direct service of the plot Sometimes details exist for character development, world building, or thematic depth.
@leafpratt
@leafpratt 6 лет назад
I just think she did it for virtue signaling points.
@DampWetstew
@DampWetstew 6 лет назад
Dyslexic Laef I think she was doing it for the right reasons. (Dumbledore being gay, characters being Jewish/Catholic/Wiccan, Hermione's race being ambitious) To me, following her interviews and Twitter for ages and understanding how she writes, it feels like she may have an impression of a character but keeps things vague for the reader to make their own headcannon, and so she may be able to use an ambiguity over a character for plot points later on. (Using indirect ways of placing a character or plot point is a pretty distinct aspect of her writing.) Incidentally, she did do a good job keeping Hermione's race uncertain. Her skin tone is mentioned only once in the series (as in her face was 'white (from fear)). If a black girl somewhere was able to project herself on Hermione, that would be cool.
@leafpratt
@leafpratt 6 лет назад
Troy Edwards like I said I don't think she did it from the start and in my opinion If someone is going to be gay black or whatever do it from the start and dont just add it on later it just makes it seem shallow and fake
@user-we7lv8pm3o
@user-we7lv8pm3o 6 лет назад
She totally did. Pure opportunism. Why risk losing money when you write it, just make up some bs later.
@noslurs7260
@noslurs7260 2 года назад
@@DampWetstew if she had wanted readers to be able to make up their own head Luca on she wouldn’t have said that Dumbledore was gay. My head canon never said that Dumbledore was gay and it was never an issue when I read all 7 books. Her saying that one of the main characters is gay after the fact actually changed how I look back on the books. And not for the better.
@racismincorporated803
@racismincorporated803 3 года назад
Dumbledore is gay and it was pretty obvious to anyone who actually read the books, and besides, being gay dosent define you. Your sexuality dosent define you as a person just like being gay dosent define dumbledore as a character or a person, it is irrelevant, gay or not, he is still the person/ character he is
@gamep9971
@gamep9971 4 года назад
Jk just wants to keep her star struck for her next storyline and she took gay as character. One simple question : why only one person is gay in the entire Harry Potter story??? Because well he needs a new story line.. If you think of it, in hallows part 2 aberforth said statements Albus was interested in power and sacrificed even his sister meaning he had no reason for relationship. He focused his entire life to achieve power. Ok so next let her say. Slughorn was gay as well he was his ex. Literally ruined the entire HP series too
@EmilyCheetham
@EmilyCheetham 5 лет назад
If people complain about the lacks of LGBT in Harry potter then they will have to complain about it for an awful lot of the most loved and followed books. It just isn’t brought up most of the time. Why you may ask? Well because it really isn’t important to the story. Why spend a page or chapter Nattering on about x character(s) being gay when you want to get on and find out what happens in the story. Also for those who are uncomfortable with the subject you could put them off the book(s) entirely. It is touched apron in Harry Potter if you know what to look for but there is no need for dumbledore to state it so why go into it wasting precious time? I’m a supporter of anyone no matters what their preferences are but I know the importance of plot development and would not want to change the flow of a book for the sake of one thing.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 5 лет назад
The idea that we should excuse the lack of representation because jkr wanted to coddle homophobes is a had take
@EmilyCheetham
@EmilyCheetham 3 года назад
@@fandommusings5302 your explanation doesn’t even make sense. What does “ had take “ supposed to mean.
@sweatyskeleton7390
@sweatyskeleton7390 5 лет назад
Because she did it after the fact for clout?
@horsemonkey1893
@horsemonkey1893 6 лет назад
It's not going to be used if it has no meaning to the plot.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
HorseMonkey18 it is relevant to the plot. Theres an entire subplot in book 7 about his past and his past with gellert.
@kk-ox3rs
@kk-ox3rs 5 лет назад
Hp books are from Harry's POV. If Harry didn't read and discover Albus's past, he being gay would have never come out. So every argument is invalid
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 5 лет назад
That's a watsonian defense of a doylist critique.
@purplecubeman01
@purplecubeman01 5 лет назад
Mainly because it's the story of Harry Potter, a boy who has to kill a evil dark lord and save the wizarding world, and not the story of a gay old man trying to teach kids. It's not really relevant. And has zero impact on the story.
@reluctantlydancing
@reluctantlydancing 5 лет назад
Albuss past feelings for Gellert make up an entire subplot of DH and gets several chapters dedicated to it. So. Ya know. You're wrong.
@purplecubeman01
@purplecubeman01 5 лет назад
@@reluctantlydancing his homosexuality is like the color grey and blue he wears through out the series, who cares? The story isnt about him. That's re ally the crux of the argument.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 5 лет назад
I think you missed the point. Albus' romantic feelings WERE important to the story. They had a huge impact on an entire subplot of book 7, but because those feelings weren't made clear, we lacked a lot of context that could have made that prominent subplot more impactful. And obviously- I CARE. I made a whole video about it.
@jevinday
@jevinday 8 месяцев назад
Maybe she didn't talk about him being gay because she was writing a book about wizards for kids who don't give a shit about Dumbledore's gay love affair...sorry i had to.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 7 месяцев назад
Weird how those kids apparently gave so many shits about Snape and Remus and Hagrid's straight love affairs.
@renegadepictures3213
@renegadepictures3213 3 года назад
he's not gay
@igydkygs00kwhi
@igydkygs00kwhi 2 месяца назад
Short answer: becahse hes not actually gay. Its a recent retcon to add political propaganda into an established story. So its not cannon.
@specialcorn1312
@specialcorn1312 Год назад
because he isn't
@fatmilf1498
@fatmilf1498 5 месяцев назад
Because he’s not
@leonbas3958
@leonbas3958 Год назад
because he isnt
@savinmihaiaureliu9320
@savinmihaiaureliu9320 2 года назад
...
@alexman378
@alexman378 3 года назад
Because he wasn’t, it was a slapped in afterthought after the series was over. Also, you don’t see stairs accommodating disabled students because there are none. It’s established by the second book that broken bones, muscular and spinal problems can be easily fixed in the magical world.
@LyricsCrashx3
@LyricsCrashx3 5 лет назад
who cares? it makes it more interesting.. they never said he was straight either..
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 5 лет назад
Whoosh. Missed the point
@thatspookyfeeling
@thatspookyfeeling 5 лет назад
To answer the title of this video, maybe because he's not and JKR is stupid and people don't need to be represented in a work of literature, it's not what books are for. Morticia
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 5 лет назад
How can a character not be in canon what their creator says?
@michaelbuarque4644
@michaelbuarque4644 5 лет назад
I'm gay. Never thought it was a big deal that she added all of this stuff after the books and films came out. The general public doesnt like us, so theres your reason that it isnt in the books and movies. But I think it was a nice gesture on her part.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 5 лет назад
Even the bit about wizards pooping their pants? I think refusing to put representation because it might mean the homophones don't give you as much money is....not very nice.
@jeffhyche9839
@jeffhyche9839 3 года назад
No, its not a nice gesture on her part when you think it through on what she did. No where in the books does it bring up the fact DumbleDore, DD, is gay. Not one point any where in the books. They are children's books and they where released in the '90s. In the '90s having a outright gay character would have impacted sales of the books, in a big way. So when it became safe to have a gay character, years after she had already made her money, she just says "by the way Dumbledore is gay." She is just jumping on the bandwagon years after it was safe for her to do so. I'm surprised more gay people haven't picked up on this and raised hell. My gay friends after I pointed this out where livid.
@MarkFilipAnthony
@MarkFilipAnthony 6 лет назад
I think the most important question u haven't ask is: does it matter for the story? In an interview with Rowling and cloves, she states that to her doumbledore was always gay, but she didn't write about it since the story wasn't about that. Many authors have the rule that you should only write about the things that adds to the story of the main character. LGBT issues never seemed to be an "issue" needed to addressed in the HP universe, and what I liked about them not adding "gayness" to doumbledore, was that it never became relevant for the story. There are moments in the books it could've been mentioned, but it was never needed to be added. My personal problem with "political correctnes" in media or entertainment, is tha some people seem to demand the fictional characters to ether mention, have plot point or have activity that ether has to, need to or "should" mention solutions for LGBT, people with disabilities etc etc It seems to me that to them the conclusion is: if these things are not mentioned at least, they are not an important enough issue for the next fictional universe, and they most likely are a lot of sexism, discrimination, racism etc etc in these universes. To me, unless the story demands it, not mentioning these aspects of human society nether confirms nor denies the importance of these "themes" in the narrative, they are simply not mentioned. Which nether puts the storyteller a villain nor a supporter of these movements, it only shows that these things where never needed for moving the narrative forward. Doumbledore being gay, or not gay, was never relevant for the narrative or the story. Even the world "gay" wouldn't be needed to be added for confirming his sexuality. Love is love, it doesn't need confirmation nor specification by ther narrator, unless it specially moves the narrative in an important thematic way. If dumbledfores "gayness" had been mentioned, the story had to most likely stop to spend some time exploring these themes and aspects, the question is: is the Harry Potter story about LGBT issues? Similar to how the books never mentions religions, belief systems, or go deep into the themes of wizards relationship with scientific discoveries. Do they thing the world is flat and at the center of the universe? Nobody knows, because it's not relevant for the narrative. That nether confirms or denies the authors support behind science nor religion. It doesn't come up because it's not relevant. The same with doumbledore being gay, it's not relevant.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
MarkFilipAnthony im going to disagree with you there. Dumbledores feelings were Gellert were VERY important to his character and motivation, and would have helpes develop the themes of love further in the story. It was just as, if not more, important than plenty of other things we spend time on.
@MarkFilipAnthony
@MarkFilipAnthony 6 лет назад
Fandom Musings yes, but it wasn't just romantic love that doumbledore didn't open about, all types of love in general. Love to his family, even love towards his friends, or Harry. I think that's the irony of the character, he was all about the magic of love, and how love was the most important thing, but his own love life both romantic and general relationship was always hard and complicated. He was never a really openly private person, most things we get to know about him we get to know through other characters rather than himself. So almost everything we know are subjective view points, of people who new him. So if people didn't know he was gay, or what he felt about people in general, it wasn't mentioned or simply just theorised through other characters. The closest we get is his portrait crying in the stageshow 'the cursed child', but many doesn't consider it canon, or necessarily accurate information as it's a portraits feelings, not necessarily 100% how he felt in real life. My point is that if it was important for Rowling to explore doumbledore sexuality for the narrative and necessary for Harrys journey into defeating voldemort, I'm sure it would've been made into a bigger point. Overall she doesn't mention any other characters sexuality ether, rather the opposite anything to do with sexual attraction seem to not be mentioned in the books at al, yes crushes etc but mainly only Harry's. Most other characters relationship is stuff she has added later. In the same interview with Steve cloves she mentions how she has this major big back story for McGonnagal as a strong female character but she never found room or reason to fit it into the books, as the books were mainly about harry, so why would he need this info out her?
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
MarkFilipAnthony this whole video is about how there are OTHER Doylist reasons why it never came up. Because Dumbledores past IS important. Book 7 spent a LOT of time on it, and to only be told half truths in the text about the past of a person that makes up a whole subplot is....well.
@MarkFilipAnthony
@MarkFilipAnthony 6 лет назад
Fandom Musings i understand ur reasoning, and everyone to their own opinion. In some ways dumbledore as a character is most interesting when u Don't know that much about him anyway. I think we've got to know enough about him in the 7th book for what was needed for the narrative. Of course as a fan I would love to explore more of his character and his life, but I thought they might do it in the fantastic beast movies. But if they don't, maybe we'll see what kind of "relationship" , dumbledore and grindelwald had in the first place. It always seemed to me that dumbledores love for grindelwald was very complicated, if I'm not wrong Rowling also stated that it wasn't a mutual love, but one sided thing. So maybe dumbledores "gayness" wasn't even that big of a thing, he seems to suppress a lot of feelings in general. Who know, I at least didn't feel his sexuality really mattered for enjoying the character nor understand the narrative. But I understand how "representation" for a lot of fans is important
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
MarkFilipAnthony i mean this is tje nicest possible way- its very....heterosexual logic to assume that being gay (in Britain, at a time when it was criminalized) wouldnt have had a big impact on his life. We know the fall out from gellert is why he never persued politics, and why he waited so long to stop gellert as an adult. That part of his identity gives a lot of context for everything he did.
@Vermiliongod22
@Vermiliongod22 3 года назад
Pointless... I'm sorry, I tried.
@ginogatash4030
@ginogatash4030 5 лет назад
i don't want to sound like a jerk, but to me this video just sounds like: "it can't be that one of my favourite authors is a moron! i can't possibly appreciate her work, if she is anything less than the perfect can't do no wrong being! i must find an excuse to justify my god!" if you want to believe Rowling actually wanted Dumbledore to be gay go ahead, but the undeniable truth is that, JK Rowling just wanted to look "progressive", for having LGBT rapresentation in her books, years after the series ended, without actually doing anything, and the fact that in "Fantastic beasts the crimes of Grindelwald" Dumbledore is never shown to have ANY kind of romantic sentiments for Grindelwald just proves it. if it's not in the story, it doesn't exist, no matter how many tweets you may write trying to "retcon" things.
@24masks
@24masks 3 года назад
Simple answer, it's because he isn't .
@ericvilas
@ericvilas 5 лет назад
Turns out, Dumbledore's romantic relationship with Grindelwald is very heavily implied, however not outright stated in words, in a couple of scenes in Crimes of Grindelwald So that's one thing fixed, at least.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 5 лет назад
"Fixed" kinda.
@SisterTheohild
@SisterTheohild 6 лет назад
Please tell my why is Dumbledore being gay important to the story? I had a feeling when I was reading the books, that Dumbledore had feelings for Grindelwald. BUT it doesn't at anything to Harrys or Newts story. So it's not an issue that this hasn't been further explored in the books or movies. It woul just feel forced if Dumbledore would random say, that he was gay.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
D4rk Inside Thematically, Harry Potter is a story about love, the power of love, how love can save and even redeem. So ignoring the way that the love Albus and Gellert had in many ways redeemed Gellert is a real loss. Not exploring how love specifically crafted Dumbledores own beliefs is a loss. Narratively, not Acknowleging the romance between Albus and Gellert weakens their whole backstory. (Dumbledores motivations to stay out of politics, gellerts actions in keeping the wand from Voldemort , why albus is estranged from aberforth) Which has a whole subplot in book 7. It weakens the motivations of the characters by obscuring them.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
D4rk Inside there are multiple times when dumbledore and gellerts "friendship" was discussed where it would have made perfect sense to reveal the nature of their relationship. Most notably at Kings Cross. Dumbledore is already talking about gellert, how he "inflamed" him, even sheds a tear at the news of gellerts death. It would have been perfectly natural and logical to have a "oh, how I loved him" in there as well.
@SisterTheohild
@SisterTheohild 6 лет назад
But Dumbledore doesn't need more backstory für Harry and how would people have known that he was in Love with Gellert? That doesn't make sense. Harry doesn't need to now that Dumbledore had a thing for the former dark lord and it's well done, that Harry just gets to know that Dumbledore could not kill Grindelwald. How should that weakens the whole backstory and like @MarkFilipAnthony and @Cyan L. said: It doesn't madder to Harry. It would have an impact on Harry when Sirius and Remus came out of the closed and decided to adopt Harry. But Dumbledore being gay? Not so much.
@TheSuperQuail
@TheSuperQuail 3 года назад
Because it's the least interesting thing about the character.
@nightowl8477
@nightowl8477 5 лет назад
Because he's not gay. Rowling just regrets having a non-diverse list of characters. Not that that's a problem. It's a story. It's about characters and their interactions. Not their skin colour or sexuality.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 5 лет назад
Its kinda foolish to say that race and sexuality dont directly affect characters.
@nightowl8477
@nightowl8477 5 лет назад
@Ro Grant - you're a saint
@moved1441
@moved1441 3 года назад
One word: Tokenism.
@spiderlily723
@spiderlily723 5 лет назад
Dumbledore being gay simply isn't supported by the text, unless Rowling can consistently explain how Dumbledore is gay, but Rita (who alluded to Hermione two-timing Harry and Victor at the prime age of 15) decided not to allude to Dumbledore being in love with Grindelwald despite Magicals having no issues like homophobia or racism ever*. Per her various interviews.
@naomilamont7223
@naomilamont7223 6 лет назад
The books never mention McGonagall's love life either, which Rowling also planned (once she was in love with a Muggle, I think). It just wasn't part of Harry's story, and it was his perspective.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
But it was part of the story. Dumbledore's backstory and his relationship with Gellert is an entire subplot in book 7
@naomilamont7223
@naomilamont7223 6 лет назад
Fandom Musings True, Dumbledore's love life was more relevant, especially in book seven. I still think Harry was more concerned with Albus and Gellert's oppressing Muggle theories, which was way more relevant to the story.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
Their relationship is the reason it took so long for Dumbledore to stop Gellert, a good part of the reason why Dumbledore never went into politics, and why Gellert refused to give Voldemort the location of the Elder wand. Pretty relevant.
@naomilamont7223
@naomilamont7223 6 лет назад
Fandom Musings You're making some good points. I need to rethink this.
@sandorsbox
@sandorsbox 6 лет назад
As a gay man, it’s very simple: it isn’t necessary. It never comes up. Why should he go around telling people he’s gay if it’s never a subject of conversation? I don’t go around telling people I’m gay just because. It it comes up, I tell people
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
There was an entire subplot about his ex boyfriend in book 7. So...it probably should have come up
@supernovax6867
@supernovax6867 6 лет назад
I really don't mind that it doesn't mention he's gay in the Harry Potter series because it's not that important to the plot. What does bother me is that their won't be any representation of Dumbledore being gay in the Fantastic Beast series especially since he's suppose to be fighting the person he loves. They should at least confirm that he's gay in a book or film otherwise it will seem like JKR was lying to get attention.
@sandorsbox
@sandorsbox 6 лет назад
Furthermore, we don’t know that McGonagall is straight but it never comes up so why is it even an issue? I
@sandorsbox
@sandorsbox 6 лет назад
Yes, I know her back story is revealed later but it’s never in the text so why is it an issue?
@seanmayory
@seanmayory 6 лет назад
Hmm. Did the maker of this video choose the sexuality of a character in Harry Potter over any number of other movies and books because sexuality is click bait? Or does the author struggle with the question of his or her own sexuality and potentially deals with issues of self esteem or value and looks for validation in popular culture, hoping to imply the world has an obligation to actively validate anyone and everyone?
@seanmayory
@seanmayory 6 лет назад
Question one. Is JKR responsible as an author to address any and all potential issues of minority representation? Do you have any idea how long a book would be if it were asked to address in a preventative way the of the social issues that might be impacted by the mention of them or absence of the mention? Every book would be required to have both a male and a female hero figure. There would never be a single hero. For every thing one did the other would require an equal action so as to ensure neither appeared more heroic or valuable than the other. There would always have to be both a male and a female sidekick, and again equally portrayed. There would have to be a set for both heroes. You would need to ensure the hero and sidekick relationship never portrayed a specific gender in a diminutive position. All literature would be required to follow a strict literary dualism for every character and archetype. And then you need to address the issue of visual identity. How does your story promote proactively the equality of skin colour or body shape. How do you write a story with both a male and female as well as perceived racial equality. Two white here's, to of Asian descent, to of African decent, two of north American heritage. None of the them can be perceived in this one story as more able or intelligent. And then we move on to ability. Are all issues of ability acknowledged and represented in a positive way? How many of these character address social class, sexuality, age, or any number of other issues that may make some one upset at their lack of mention or perceived value? Is the lack of mention within the story an automatic indication of hostile intent? Would you as a reader want to read a book ten times longer than the original story that was simply filled in with all the dry content added to pad it out for all those reasons? No having Dumbledore specifically mention his sexuality wouldn't take that much page space. But that only one issue. If you mention and address it you now HAVE to write additional content to prove how other feel about it. You have to prove he's out and proud. You have to prove non of the teachers or anyone else thinks less of him. You have to prove sexuality within the wizarding world is viewed negatively and rather is promoted. So now all the teachers have to randomly mention it and in a positive way. Fudge and other high ranked people have to be given page space to do the same. Additional characters would need to be created to ensure a proper distribution of positive perception of him with the full knowledge of his sexuality. It isn't a one off mention. You can't just say it and walk away. If you open the box you have to go the distance. Two Would the inclusion of the things mentioned as absent add to the story itself? How does the issue of staircase or ramp accessories to the school impact the story? I'm not asking if some one some where would be happy to see it, I'm asking if it impacts the actual story. Do any of the character require require it creating a plot hole because there is nothing referenced? Is it important to the story? Does it change or affect the story? Is there a value to the story in adding the cost of additional pages? Three Very specifically, how would the mention of Dumbledore's sexuality impact the story? Does it add to the story? Would the outcome of the story change? Let's consider the story. Does the issue impact Harry, his friends, or any other character? Is this an issue the affecting Harry? If none of the principal hero or sidekick characters are experiencing an issue related to their sexuality what would it serve the story to add this detail explicitly? Let's say Dumbledore mentioned it to Harry. How would the story be perceived? From the Doyle perspective, what happens? Tell me how both children and parents are going to perceive an elderly man taking an interest in a young boy telling him that he is gay? The issue isn't that he's gay. The issue is that everyone even if they are gay is going to think Dumbledore is a pedophile. The entirety of society weather they are gay or not is going to be worried about the interest of an old man to a young boy. It isn't a fair worry probably, but that isn't going to stop people from worrying. It isn't going to stop schools and libraries from banning the book because they think it promotes it. From the Watson perspective what happens? Why would Dumbledore choose to share that information with Harry? How should Harry react? Again, Harry is already dealing with the question of his place and acceptance through his status as an orphan. Through his interactions with his muggle family, Snape, Draco. Every year a evil dead wizard attempts to come back to life and kill Harry. Harry doesn't need an addition reason to question himself. Would it affect how Harry interacts to him? Would it affects how any of the other characters interact with Harry or Dumbledore? Should it? Is there an issue important to the story that would be served? Part 4 I'm not going to lie and say your choice doesn't upset me. I find it to be click bait at the very least and as a member of the LGTB I find it offensive. I despise social justice in all its forms. As for the intent and a critique of the video itself on that basis I think the essay suffers because the purpose of the video isn't actually clear until near the end. As an educational tool on the differences between in canon and real world reasons for things I think you did a good job. However, at the end you suddenly swerve into the issue of structuring a debate arguement on perspectives that don't relate directly with eachother. In the end I feel like you lured me in with a click bait topic, used it to explain something valuable, and then complained about people disrespecting a debate by arguing additional perspectives rather than remaining on topic. I feel like the purpose of this video was to lure me in and impress me to the point I'd listen to you whine. If at any point in the books or movies an old man appeared to be luring an under age person in and preparing him or her, I would have walked away and never looked back. There is no GOOD reason for his sexuality to be explicitly addressed.
@debrickashaw9387
@debrickashaw9387 6 лет назад
Who cares, the fact that she so heavy handely just stated he was gay was just awkward
@puuhamato6294
@puuhamato6294 2 года назад
Because he's not gay.. It's never mentioned or hinted in the Harry Potter books. Also, it's irrelevant.
@s.m.g.2166
@s.m.g.2166 4 года назад
Short Answer: BECAUSE HE ISN'T!!!
@Justanothergamerboi
@Justanothergamerboi 6 лет назад
Because he wasn't until JK had to talk her way out of the question and didn't want to rustle woke jimmies.
@pinkimietz3243
@pinkimietz3243 6 лет назад
It's just not important
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
Pinki Mietz im going to disagree with you there. Dumbledores feelings were Gellert were VERY important to his character and motivation, and would have helpes develop the themes of love further in the story. It was just as, if not more, important than plenty of other things we spend time on.
@ManaPeerfr
@ManaPeerfr 6 лет назад
Okay, so don't intent to try answer the question you ask in the title. Nice clickbait, thanks for nothing.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
ManaPeerfr i...answered the question from multiple perspectives and discussed the merits of those perspectives.
@shanemcguire6428
@shanemcguire6428 5 лет назад
Cause who cares
@bassrocks4419
@bassrocks4419 6 лет назад
or, maybe JKR was just virtue signaling at the fact that there wasn't any LGBTQIAXYZ=6/2+ characters in her book, so she thought "you know, Dumbledore is pretty gay" and BOOM, she was less guilty about having little representation of minorities in her book
@1941KiK3YiD
@1941KiK3YiD 2 года назад
Now kid books have to be gay too smh
@heather4805
@heather4805 8 месяцев назад
how can a _book_ be gay?
@Ranger1812
@Ranger1812 5 лет назад
Except that isn't who Dumbledore is. Especially after his split from Grindelwald, he led a very bookish and celibate life. Having him explicitly say he loved Grindelwald isn't realistic, it's serving your own insecurities. You don't need to specifically say something. That's not how life works. Stop pushing your own wants and ideals onto others. Let Dumbledore be Dumbledore.
@debrickashaw9387
@debrickashaw9387 6 лет назад
lmao if you are a disabled wizard just use a broom like wtf
@UncleSofthands
@UncleSofthands 6 лет назад
I really don't get this. Why does eveyone seem to think that thier sexuality/race need to be represented in fictional media dispite context or narrative? I get it that gay and some races are not represented enough and thats a real problem but ultimately its JKs story and she can do what she wants with it. So if you have a problem with the representation of one of the characters sexuality then well.....tough? I know this example is attached to the greater issue but seeking validation in any kind of fictional media for your sexuality or personal identity can come off as needy. But expecting your identity to be represented in fiction media and getting mad when it fails to do so is just being entitaled.
@fandommusings5302
@fandommusings5302 6 лет назад
Darcy Joyce youve missed the point. And if you think that any and all critique of media should be met with "well the author wanted it like that so tough" then you really dont understand the purpose or value of media analysis.
@UncleSofthands
@UncleSofthands 6 лет назад
Fandom Musings This honestly could come down to a difference in values because I think media analysis past how it effected you on a personal level to be kind of worthless. Nothing against your believes or videos but trying to tally the medias effect on the great human consciousness is just speculation unless you can prove it with maths. For the record I really liked how it was never explicitly stated that Dumbledore was gay, gave the character a sense of secrecy and hammered home the fact that he locked all feelings of love to pursue power. I also agree that its a missed opportunity that we dont get to see Dumbledore and his ex lover together in the prequel films, could add context to the other films which is what prequels should do. One quick question, is it ever stated in the books or films that being gay is accepted in the Wizarding world? I am honestly just curious
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