One of the biggest problems with Fromsoft games in the past was their COMPLETE REFUSAL to add more regional matchmaking options. In all of their games you got only two regions: Japan, and Not Japan. This is something that fighting games learned to do (and not just fighting games, CS 1.6 also had this option TWENTY FUCKING YEARS AGO) because if you match someone from NA with someone in Japan, it's going to be a laggy shitfest no matter how good your netcode is.
This seems like the lowest hanging fruit in terms of improving PvP - the code required couldn’t be very complicated and countless other online games have demonstrated the value of this feature.
Plese don't! If this happens then the pvp will be divided in continents (or even lands) and then the games will die out even faster.. I've played lots of games with these kinds of implications and it's always nice at the starting cycle of the game but after a few years it just means you can only play the game in between certain hours that match when the majority of players are online. This has unfortunately already happened on the DkS:Re.
@@joshmay2944 Good point! DkS: Re actually has this but it's quite well-hidden and more importantly its default setting is on local unfortunately, so 90% of the playerbase has never changed this. I do know it improves gameplay (and makes pvp way more consistent and fun) yet I prefer laggy invasions to no invasions at all.
In DS2, if players poise through attacks while running, their movement speed would significantly decrease for a second (no stagger). To some degree, this poise mechanic also prevented backstab fishing in DS2. If Fromsoft really worries about passive poise and backstab ruining PVP, the poise mechanic in DS2 might be a good call. Great analysis Amir!
That’s a pretty sure fire way to prevent passive poise fishing. Funny enough ds3 has some weird effect with pers that makes it harder to fish with by tanning attacks
I think the 2 biggest takeaways from ds3 are netcode and animation clarity. Facestabs and stuff always look so awkward because the bs is so unnatural looking, like so many animations in ds3 seamlessly flow into eachother except backstabs (and scythe heavy after 2 r1's). A better look might be if the player reaches out their left arm while jabbing or swinging the weapon in their right. This way a player can still be hit with a whiffed bs when it happens. While explaining away facegrabs as being pulled into/embraced by the backstaber. TLDR: Instead of being sucked it'll looked like being grabbed.
and you could also play the parry crit animation if the player is looking at you instead of a properly backstab animation would explain facegrabs and make it less weird
Speaking of the scythe heavy, I'd like to see a look at animation transitions through Souls. Demon's Souls and Dark Souls had movesets where most buttons had 2 versions, a start and a continuation, but Dark Souls 2 and 3 don't have this, yet Bloodborne and Sekiro do. For instance, 2 R1's with a 2 handed claymore is a swing downward and pull upward in Dark Souls 1, but if you do an R2 and then an R1, it's the swipe right to left and then the pull upward. 2 and 3 don't have those transition movesets.
@@hobosorcerer Also, one of the best things about these games is everything goes both ways. In PvE and pvp nothing is off limits. When you get mikiri countered in sekiro or shot out of the air the same way you do to the mobs/bosses it's shocking and important. It's immersive to see that everyones on the same page even the npc's.
I think backstabs being so rare to occur in elden ring is ok due to the huge variety of movesets that should be available through ashes of war. A good pvp match will no longer include shoulder sniffing, but actually spacing each other for actual attacks, and backstabs being a huge callout tool.
I hope so… im really getting worried about elden ring with all the recent news, pve being absolutely piss easy, magic being op, backstabs being nerfed to oblivion, shorter roll distance (which i dont mind but believe dex builds should have good dodge rolls), ashes of war look great but i wonder how well they can be implemented in pvp. I really REALLY hope fromsoft proves my worries ill founded but im slightly losing hope 😟
I couldn’t agree more. I think the fact so many people are so upset/nervous about this change is purely due to peoples natural want to resist change. I mean chain backstabs were/are a problem in dark souls, even dark souls 3 like you’re saying was a lot of the time people trying to get a whiff backstab off on you. People are just foolish and I’m glad someone like Miyazaki got through the cracls
I'm not against facestabs being basically gone, but I really hope they tweak the system a bit so we can at least punish things like parry spamming, which we couldn't in the NT
Jump heavy or maybe faster jump attacks in general? Or is this too slow to do and the person spam parrying can react roll to it? Since jump attacks do lots of posture damage, if it hits parry spammers they'll be punished by a riposte when their posture is broken (essentially the same punish as backstab, but initiated differently and doesn't look as unnatural/janky).
@@shira_yone Yep i played the network test and all jumping atacks are imune to parry in elden ring,never tried the backstab,probably don't work because the animations are too fast now,but jump atacks are 100% safe against parry spam.
@@LucasCamargo827 that's good to hear. Seems like most people forgot that you can jump in Elden Ring and how it's supposed to change combat significantly.
I always thought backstabs were supposed to be a stealth attack, which is why it does such high damage. Nobody should have been backstabbing an enemy that they're facing head on. I can see why they removed it because it takes away from the combat and makes PvP gimmicky. Bloodborne PvP was excellent because it required action to actually get a backstab. If you really want to play the backstab game all day, that's fine, but I think most players are ready to move into a more open and creative system for fighting. When the best players are only so good because of the gimmicks, it's probably time to move onto something different and more enjoyable. Awesome video though. It's cool to see how the mechanics have evolved.
This. Backstabs have actually been happening frequently from what I've seen so far, but mostly to invaders that are facing multiple enemies and someone sneaks up behind them. Facing someone head on though rarely works, and it shouldn't. I like what I'm seeing personally.
Great analysis! I like that FROM is trying to address facestabs, and I hope that with the data and feedback from the network test they can make backstabs usable.
Certainly, there is a link to give feedback on this post btw www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/qu0ohc/elden_ring_pvp_is_not_ready_for_the_public_and/
My biggest issue with the backstab system in the later games (DS2 especially but somewhat in DS3) is that the game would often attempt a backstab when you just wanted to do a normal attack resulting in a failed backstab when a normal attack would have hit
perhaps changing backstabs to a different button besides the light attack button might fix it? Although that would likely overcomplicate things quite a bit
I'm honestly surprised you don't have a greater following Amir, your content would be useful and interesting for a very wide range of players, Dark Souls and otherwise. Great for the community.
I mean the Dark Souls multiplayer community is fairly niche. And the hardcore and highly technical part of that community is a niche within a niche. Keep in mind that Jeenine has to many been the model Dark Souls 3 player in how to best play in PvP and he has less than 10k subs
Very interesting. I do agree that adding an actual 'Grab' animation to Backstabs could resolve a lot of this, and that actually gave me an idea that could probably permanently solve the problem of unwanted Backstab attempts; What if Backstab Attempts were initiated by something other than R1? My first thought is, well, why not put it on the Interact Button? This button is used to grab objects in the world, why not also people? Then your R1 would never have inconsistent effects because of an unplanned Backstab Attempt. You instead get behind someone and press interact to initiate the Backstab. Part of my thinks the system could then also be expanded to include L1 Backstabs, if the Interact Button effectively didn't launch an attack that did damage, or only did trivial damage, but put the person into a Backstab Ready Animation kinda like Bloodborne did. You could then follow up with R1 or L1, or even R2/L2 to have multiple different backstabs. But that's probably more complexity than is actually needed, and would probably devolve to just having one backstab attack you always use and the others are worthless. And on thinking about it a bit more, this is almost like the system that the Dark Souls Remastest mod implemented. I think that was its name. In that Mod in order to backstab someone you had to Channel Patches and Kick them in the back , unless you were using a Dagger, I think? I never actually played the Mod since I'm more of a PvE kinda guy but I watched the video on it a while back. I think Interact is a more consistent button to use, but the basic concept is the same.
You're onto something. I like the current backstab system in elden ring but the constant failed backstab attempts are a problem. If we use something like the X button for backstabs you no longer get unwanted attempts on normal attacks. Another fix that someone mentioned if the complete removal of backstabs and instead do 30% more damage on enemies' backs
“Backstabs now almost never happen in PVP.” Hot take: GOOD It was getting frustrating watching everyone in every souls game play passively so they could just fish for backstabs, now they need to either grow a pair and risk parrying or actually use the mechanics of the fucking game.
Agree! for me Backstabs is the one mechanic that makes the series look like some average fight game, for me it is not coherent with the amazing pvp game that it is.
I actually prefer Elden Ring’s backstabs. They have always been the sloppiest part of design in the souls games, and really should only be usable on enemies who are barely moving.
agree, for me the pvp on the series is so good, and the one thing that stands out as a weird game mechanic is this glitchys backstabs. dont feel like something is missing for me!
I'd like to see From apply this to PvE and see if you still agree. Your idea of backstabs in a PvP setting would literally only be effective against AFK players, essentially making it a non-mechanic.
Not when your back is esencially a fucking turtle shell... Implemnting a backstab that doesn't work sucks hard because it prevents normal hits. If this stays like this. We have to accept that same strange cosmic rule dictatets that you can only haevy the backs of enemies...
@@Malik-ig3ml players are people who exploit the backstab mechanic to deal damage they should not otherwise be dealing. Enemies are artifical intelegence, so exploiting that trick vs mobs means much less.
Thank you for both breaking down all the technical details of the backstab implementations across the series, while also countering this weirdly pervasive argument that backstabbing being nerfed to the point of absolute uselessness would somehow be healthy for the game whatsoever.
I don't have much experience with the pvp in the souls games but, something I would like to see is having a unique input for the backstab attempt, like holding light attack or pressing both light and heavy attack at the same time. That would definetly fix the problem of getting a backstab attempt when you didn't mean to.
@@aceroy9195 just make it the interact button, with the backstab attempt having higher priority. The interact button already is dedicated to interact only so, I don't see why not.
Honestly I’d prefer them to use something like the Bloodborne system Especially since posture exists and there are so many different options in combat Using a quick jump attack to counter parries is one solution ive already seen and i really like that
@Jinxed Swashbuckler Oh i know! What i’m more so saying is that i think they could be de-emphasized a bit, given this game’s options. Like i think there are problably more interesting punishes we would see if backstabs weren’t the “be all end all” for every situation Making them less effective against runners and people who aren’t committed to an animation seems reasonable to me But parries could use a tweak to how much you can move during the animation, so that they can be punished If you read someone’s parry (which leads to a backstab style move) then you should probably get a backstab
Honestly agree with this, it's such a jank mechanic that I personally feel not worth the headache of implementing smoothly (they attempted it 3 times already and it still looks unnatural), high time they focus on other combat mechanics. Since posture is back in ER, sounds like there'll be plenty of opportunities to riposte someone if you're aggressive enough.
Easiest fix is to make an unique input for the back stab, like a throw input from fighting games, for the case of Elden ring, not the whole back stab problem.
I missed the Network Test (mostly to avoid any campaign spoilers) so take my inexperienced opinion with a grain of salt but from what I’ve seen with backstabs is that they mostly need to find a way to balance it around both damage and ability to avoid. In ds1, backstabs are objectively the single best strategy you can use in not only pvp but pve because how easy they are to pull off and the absurd damage they deal. If you’re playing to win why bother trying to use cool strategies and weapons when the easiest solution is to strafe to an enemies back and press r1 once? Even high level pvp is entirely focused on backstabs just with more complicated escapes and cheese. In ds3, yes its far more balanced in terms of escape but the damage is still pretty high. I don’t like that sprinting for someones back with a shield up is actually kind of a viable strategy thanks to how powerful bs’ still are even if you have the option of rolling away now. My fix here is honestly much more of a rip the bandaid off approach than others might like but just remove items like the hornet ring. They already do some pretty crazy damage and boosting it by 30% is really stupid imo, plus theres no way to counter that increase outside of the dragonscale ring which no one uses since bs’ are harder to pull off and you won’t think of switching to it unless you’ve already been backstabbed, and by that point it won’t save you since the next bs will probably kill you anyway. Backstabs should be a punish tool for bad spacing and poor timing with certain attacks, not a “spam and fish for this tactic until your opponent screws up once” Personally I think From should really lower the amount of damage dealt by backstabs overall by all weapons except daggers for obvious reasons. They don’t seem to get enough love as it is even with their current crit multiplier being higher so I think carving out a more reasonable niche could help them find a better spot in the meta. It might also work to speed up the bs animation for daggers if they remain as hard as they currently are to pull off in the full release. Another option would be to boost bs damage received by other weapons when casting certain spells since that might keep non dagger weapons from becoming completely pointless for punishing. In the end I dunno, I’m not a game designer, a modder, or a high level pvper, I’m just a guy who wants to fight some bosses and invade others for some fun every once in awhile. But I like to pvp for fun and to try cool weapons. I don’t want half the sandbox to be rendered pointless by one mechanic that I honestly might remove completely if I had the power.
@@dsedh23 honestly as much as it may sound otherwise, I do generally like the way backstabs function in ds3 minus the damage output and abusable shield strats. I don’t want to have them removed from combat, but I really hate how they tend to have most of the meta revolve around what can and can’t be backstab punished really easily
I'm honestly fine with almost no backstabs in PvP. Takes one spam out of the meta lineup. (I really like how Bloodborne did their visceral attacks.) Your suggested system makes a ton of sense though. Very good in-depth video.
@@LightNetBR Isn't that how it should be though? If the only way to win a 1v3 is to cheese chain backstabs and constantly benefit from the i-frames you get in the animation then why want it? I prefer i-frames be reduced as much as possible as keeping them is flat out immersion breaking. Let a new meta evolve.
I've heard an interesting idea for a simple fix being to buff the damage on the actual missed backstab thrust attack. Dunno if it would work, but it's cool that people are thinking about alternative work arounds.
if the stab was a sweep that might be a bit useful, but as it stands the stab itself rarely lands so that wouldn't really fix the issue at all imo. That said, if they recognize the issue they should fix the core issue and not work around it.
Moveset/Mechanical disadvantages would unfortunately still make it really not worth it, unless they made it do a stupid amount, which would be silly. Thing is that changing damage amounts is a Band-Aid solution in a lot of cases, for example how ultras in DS3 are still very much outclassed by daggers that net 1/10th of the damage of them on an r1(They don't have 2 hit combos).
Removing backstabs entirely & just letting melee attacks deal more damage from behind might work, despite having its own set of potential balance issues.
The backstab attempt animation is something I wish it was possible to disable. Like, a personal reverse jester chest piece. Instead of making it impossible to be backstabbed, making it impossible to backstab in the first place. The amount of times in ds3 a regular swing would've been fine but I got the weird half swing of the attempt is astronomical.
Man, I was all ready to rip you a new one on that title before watching the video. Now, having watched it all, I'm not mad at all. Very informative, very objective look at the history and mechanics of backstabs and why Elden Ring has the system it currently does. I agree with your conclusions, too. This needs to be fixed ASAP. Backstabs are an integral part of the DS PvP experience and are, at the very least, critical to punishing very long casts or these newly spammed jump-heavies. Good video.
I'm honestly glad backstabs are hard af to pull of people always go for them and made combat stale and invasions too easy what I DO think they need to fix is the gank stunlock that shit crazy
Bloodborne's is the best in my opinion, it makes more sense since a backstab is supposed to be a surprise attack when the opponent is not looking/lost track of you. Just patch burritos(the r1 + visceral combo) and dead/ ghost angles and it's good.
It ended up being the worst actually because if you have splash or wide attacks it could still count, the best and worst example is the stake driver I've gotten a 2 ko with one heavy and also staggered the host who was to my side facing me, unlike the DS system which was still kinda bs it was just way too unpredictable.
if they're going to stick with the nerfs to skill and depth in pvp (ahem, to fishing) in ER, they could at least make the grab fail animation as quick as it was in ds3. you get punished sooo hard in ER for a missed bs, usually resulting in death just because you tried to implement a cool supposed-mechanic to your play. if they wanted to remove backstabs in pvp they should have just done that, not left it in the game while simultaneously rending it useless. ER was made to please redditors/new fans, and yet they still complain about the difficulty. meanwhile the vets have to sit back and watch their favorite game series reduced to one shot weapon arts and macro spacing. edit: forgot to mention the fact that players are now unable to redirect failed bs grabs. why FS WHY!!
I missed 2 backstabs in a row on an idle skeleton mob because the angle of the hit was like 20° off. The spooky boy didn't even notice but that made me feel very stupid.
Finally, this makes much more sense than "lol backstab's broken bro, FS can't do its job". Yes, the fact that ashes of war/long cast animations and crouching completely prevents it is a clear issue, and since they're kinda the "new thing" I tend to think that FS was still working on it when releasing that specific build for the NT (and hope that these months until release will be more than enough to optimize it). But in my opinion, since backstabs have this high risk to result "unnatural" in its outcome, thinking of directly removing it for pvp (aka, there's no trigger area or hitzone for the animation on enemy player) wouldn't be completely absurd or detrimental, especially if they improve on all the other systems like parry (yea, netcode might still cause "unnatural" issues here) and posture damage (if very well balanced between weapon posture damage and armor posture resistance) being a thing, even more so if they implemented a bonus health and posture damage when hitting a (narrow) rear hitzone, something like 30 degrees, as someone suggested. I think that pvp would work a little better this way, hope I haven't said any bs here lol.
Yoo, it's you again lol. I was thinking something similar. Maybe instead of changing the way ER backstabs work (aside from fixing the outright bugs), we could just have damage players take from behind increased. So tighter angle for initiation + angle check on stab like we have already, plus a 50%-100% increase on damage taken on the back in general or less depending on the type of attack or something. That way we could also choose to charge up some kind of huge spell or attack on actually unaware players as another option. Could get messy in larger battles, but so far ER is max 4 players per world anyway.
@Jinxed Swashbuckler I mean you'd already be pretty screwed in the situation you described anyway, but you have a point. It would also help kill hosts committed to running though, which is another frustrating thing. Most proposed solutions have to decide who to please and who to displease, because there are more people who just avoid pvp because it feels unfair or janky (usually due to backstab quirks) than there are people who regularly discuss in-depth the mechanics of backstabs. But yeah, my idea probably isn't the best.
@Jinxed Swashbuckler I actually totally agree. I'd add though that I think what came of Bloodborne pvp for example (in terms of online activity) was more what From intended anyway. More of invaders casually playing the bad guy in someone's playthrough than every encounter being some sort of competitive match. Could be talking out my ass, but I think either From or Miyazaki have commented on it. I'm personally okay with losing invasions quite often if it means I get to play the "bad guy" role in these unique games, and I doubt From is interested in balancing for the hardcore crowd in the first place. Who the hell knows what's gonna happen in the coming months and years, but if there's an exodus of ultra tryhards from ER, it's probably a step closer to From's vision anyway. I wouldn't wish for it, as I have been that guy before, but there are just way way more casual players frustrated with pvp jank than there are people like us talking in-depth about backstab mechanics. And I don't know if it's relevant, but I did love Bloodborne pvp despite the things you said which are true.
@Jinxed Swashbuckler Aside from the fact that making fights against ganks easier shouldn't be a balancement priority (because is part of the risk of invading and the "righteous" unfair approach from host&friends) in my opinion, I think that lack of BS i-frames can be counterbalanced by hypothetical posture broken riposte. And this would feel way more natural, as I see it, then snappy backstab. Luckily enough, parry spam and R1 spam are both more punishable then ever in ER, thanks to non-melee ashes of war and jump attacks for the former, and improved poise+shielding+counterstrike system for the latter. And probably is this wide variety of possible approaches that can make backstabs expendable, if their unnatural visual feeling is such a concern.
Honestly, having played soulsborne pvp since the height of Dark Souls Prepare to Die, seeing backstabs slowly die out is actually very pleasing. Backstabs never took any more skill than quick movement, and with Dark Souls 3 they were turned into a very niché thing that you'd only use to punish players who were completely incompetent. Remove backstabs, period.
backstabbs never took skill any more than quick movement he says..you can bait for one,you can escape frm one in dk1 also.What are you talking about?You players that keep deny it never ever learned that the backstabb itself from dk1 actually was the main thing to avoy by logical reasons but what you people dont actually see is what that mechanick did to a specific type of players who have accept it even if was strongly denied first time they pvp and guess what?they mastered it so well to the point that demaded from them very quick reflexes,baits,escapes and pivots and tbh,thats fuckin skill.And if you think these kind of players cant beat you without bs you,you are deeply wrong.Backstabbs should remain,we need good tools to deal with gankers wich btw they are increasing and based on that,its unfair they are giving tools to gankers and remove from invaders.We need it to punish parry spammers,also magic spammers,and big weps that does a shit ton of damage punish as well.I LOVE backstabbs,hope they keep it,if removed,the game itself isnt dark souls like anymore,only fashion. hoo i remeber fighting alot of players that HATE backstabbs in dks1 but the irony resides in the fact that when they start the fight,they where the ones actually fishing for that easy damage,but as soon they saw things wherent that easy as they think,backstabbs where awfull for them like some where saying in steam chat..Hypocrisy to say the least. I would agree that some damage output was a bit too high like for instan getting bsed with a rapier 40 dex with darkmoon blade and hornet ring,or like great club,yea,that hurts quite a bit specially if was crystal path,but hey,isnt what makes that game beautifull by making you fear death in a way others can t? Just me tho.sorry english
I hope elden ring network test will go to release, at highier latency it will not look this stupid like it looked like, in well... All previous titles.
Hard disagree. Backstabbing good players always took skill and ads another level of depth to PvP. If implemented well, they make the game healthier by providing a reliable tool to punish bad play through skill expression. I'd hate to see them die.
@@DamnZodiak dude in d1 and 2nd they literally worked off the backstabbers screen leading to tons of front and far stabs as well as completely crushing slower weapons it was hands down the worst part of pvp.
I know people will say that taking backstabs out is an easy mode or something, but I'd gladly toggle them off for myself but leave the ability to be backstabed myself on! That last point about the game attempting a backstab when you only wanted to swing is so true and I really hate it.
As far as the animations are concerned, I always loved DS2 because the receiver doesn't just snap into a stoic stance. They get the ol knee kick that makes it sell better. Even 3 didn't do that. It always took me out of it when my character was just pop up right in front of my enemy's weapon as a favor.
This. I still think the concept of backstabs is really dumb, but the way Ds2 did it made the most sense hands down visually. Getting stunned by a quick jab before being locked in just seems so much more “correct” than just becoming completely oblivious to the opponent who was right in front of you lol.
Backstabs should only be possible outside of combat (aka as the very first hit as surprise attack). This way it cannot be accidentally attempted during PvP combat and its purpose is clearer. As fun as it is, this backstab fishing has always been more of a cheese both in PvE and PvP.
I won't lie. The fact that backstabs are mostly relegated to NPC and AFK Players doesn't really bother me at all. I'm totally okay with having a PvE only move, so the PvP can be a bit more than just "Fish For Crits": The Rolly Polly Experience.
Honestly i don't even like the back stab system .... Its very much okay for PvE , but PvP should be done from the front , getting backstabed in PvP would always feel akward . The thing you said about grabs is very interesting tho .... Would have been nice to for weapons to have special un-parriable grab attacks to punish bad plays , roll / attack spamming , bad positioning ect.....
As someone who enjoys invading a lot (even though I'm terrible at it), Critical attacks are crucial in fighting multiple opponents or ganks. It allows one to punish a reckless or overly aggressive enemy, get some s and lay off the heat a bit. With Elden Ring invasions being limited to worlds with an active summon, I sure hope backstabs are fixed and balanced before launch.
As someone who has been a victim of backstabs hundreds of times across all souls games i actually like the new Backstab system in Elden Ring. Maybe make backstab attempts less punishing on the person attempting them but it's better than the teleporting lagstabs of previous titles from a dude on mcdonalds wifi in a 4th world country. I think Dark souls 3 had the best set up so far minus the front stabbing.
Not to mention in ds2 backstab would seemingly randomly just end as a punch to the face or some shit, but at the same time it could start as a punch to the face and end with a backstab
I hope they keep backstabs as is. Jump attacks and weapon arts will be useless in elden ring if we keep backstabs the same as they are in dark souls 3. We may finally be able to use ultra weapons without sweat lords getting non-stop backstabs.
It's easier to space a ultra weapon and punish it with r1 spam then it is to backstab them, making backstabs useless won't make slow weapons good, if you want to make them good they need a buff themselves, not a nerf to other mechanics. Why is it so hard for you causals to understand that?
Hi, I mentioned this in the video and explained how this change doesn't actually make backstabs less effective against jump attacks and ultra weapon attacks. Did you get to watching that part?
I would like to also add on top of the other replies that as you see here 5:07 and 5:45, its hard to backstab if you don't mindlessly spam them. As shown in those clips, you can even punish the backstab attempt with an ultra. Backstabs were the least optimal way to play in even the mediocre level of experience let alone higher levels.
Jesus christ kid, ds3 backstabs are already useless and you wanna make them worse? Ds2 backstabs were the best, still good without being OP like ds1 but not nerfed so bad they only work on braindead people swinging around gigantic weapons like in ds3.
The only thing I hope for in Elden Ring is either a ping filter (e.g. kick people with a ping of 100+) or an optional region lock which you can turn on/off on the fly. The worst thing in a Souls game is playing against high ping.
I always thought backstabs should be for sudo-stealth or actual stealth, because literally every backstab animation I've seen (besides the ones where you are actually grabbed/grabbing) wouldn't make sense if the receiver was actively aware of the attempter. Especially since backstabs are so strong for their ease to do on most players.
yes, when it comes to critic attacks they should have done something like sekiro, with the posture mechanic and stealth, something like dunno a riposte animation when un do a jump attack very high and fall on a player
i really appreciate these deep dives like this. i had just been talking to friends, explaining the history of how this mechanic works throughout the series, and it's really pleasant to see you lay it all out in a nicely presented video like this! i'd be all in for something resembling 3's backstabs with greater visual clarity. in fact, they could even make them more lenient than 3's if they adjust animations to make things look less confusing and unfair to the uninformed- a sort of compromise between 2 and 3. i'm not the type to gatekeep or anything, but i will say it's saddening to watch people who don't understand any of how this stuff works complain about how backstabs controlled everything despite there being plenty of ways to protect yourself from them in any souls game even on high latency, none of which involving the "exploits" and "glitches" that people love to fuss about. backstabs to me have always been a means to punish bad movement, greedy offense, or simply to call out certain attacks, and it's been disappointing to see them get weaker with every game instead of becoming more legible at a first glance. i'm someone who likes dks1 backstabs a lot, if only because of how they allowed for such a unique, deep player vs player game, but i've been willing to adjust in each game, and i'm willing to adjust here, but i've been absolutely heartbroken watching how far they've fallen in ER. **as for deeper solutions**: i feel like the fact that these games are not lockstep means that there's not much you can do to perfectly hammer away the issue, but i do hope that something can be done to better resolve high latency interactions in ways that don't lead From to totally butcher things like backstabs. part of me wonders if they could nerf rolls to the point where they lack frame 1 invul- but i can't imagine that'd be a terribly popular change.
That old animation, Happy Souls, really summarizes the issue with backstabs: “Why is everyone stabbing me in the back?!” “Cuz it’s easy, ‘n it does a lot of damage”
G9 said the backstab animations in ER can just all be the slower grab in DS3, like fist grab or UGS grab It's so simple yet it blows my mind how good it is
They should just remove backstabs entirely because they make no sense, they’re sneak attacks that you can do to anybody anytime. They should just make hits from behind do extra damage
If even someone as good as amir can admit it’s frustrating to see despite knowing how it works id say its a pretty real issue for a majority of players. Back stabs ideally should only happen when your back is exposed. Critcals are already strong enough without jank ontop of it.
Yep, key word is "ideally" as you said. It's an issue but it needs to be balanced with the possible balance issues with trying to fix it. I believe there is ways to do both.
DS3 facestabs were avoidable by the person getting facestabbed like 90% of the time, though. You just had to realize you couldn't invalidate a backstab by turning into it, you needed distance.
@@hildebrand2252 the most aggreigous facestab that are actually frustrating are the one that happen on high latency, because it doesn't even look like they were ever behind you at all on your screen. There is no way to avoid wonky stuff like this, or crazy phantom range with bandaid fixes that ruin mechanics even on good connections, u could argue that it looks just as wonky to get failed grabs 90 percent of the time and is also unintuitive for the person attempting, and worse punishing because they eat spammed attacks as they get failed grabs. The solution has always been to implement a ping filter/ or at least an optional region lock.
@@hak2297 you say there is no way, but my point is I’d rather them keep working on minimizing jank instead of just tossing their hands up to say, “the ds3 system good enough” which is what op seems to be asking for.
It's funny to me when gamers say "netcode" because it's not a word programmers use. I guess there's "networking"... that covers a lot of different things tho. Anyway netcode is an extremely hard problem. You can get it wrong, but even if you get it right, you can't really do anything about latency or packet drops. If somebody is 60ms away from you, you're gonna have to wait 60ms for their button presses to reach you. You can't predict when exactly a person is going to press a button, how would the computer know? Then when the information reaches you, the game has to actually deal with it; it basically needs to rewind its simulation, apply the change in a past state, and then fast forward back to the current time. While it fasts forward, it also has to internally replay all the stuff you've done since then so your actions don't get eaten. As you can imagine, that sort of logic can be very tricky to keep track of, especially when you're writing game code that needs to be high performance, on a deadline. Plus you probably to do some sort of smoothing so that characters don't seem to jump around. But you gotta be careful, very subtle changes there can result in big changes to how gameplay feels. Pity the netcode programmers, they are poor souls trapped in a confusing relativistic world where separate but overlapping timelines unwind simultaneously in different locations.
I wish they'd just throw their entire backstab system out the window and simply make players do more damage when they hit someone in the back. The animation locking hinders the flow of combat and causes weird snapping in online play far too often, even in their better implementations.
Honestly might be the play. I don't mind backstabs in DkS and DkS2 but kind of hated how they didn't work half the time in DkS3 when just trying to punish someone drinking Estus walking away from you since the R1 would be more useful at that point. Elden Ring just increasing damage taken from behind and finding a good balance that works for PvE and PvP while keeping traditional backstabs as a stealth mechanic would work just fine.
Darksouls 3 absolutely still has the teleportation backstab. I have never been back stabbed in ds3 WITHOUT seeing myself teleport into the back stab animation, despite the fact I was mid roll animation and 10 feet away from the attacker.
3rd world countries? jesus. latency from any long distance connection can cause latency stabs but if you've "never" experienced a normal backstab, then it's safe to say you are the common denominator.
as for the netcode, i do believe most fighting games have slight delays when playing online because both players data is synchronized with the server. mortal kombat for example has delayed inputs because of that. its subtle but definitely noticeable. you can adapt tho. unless fromsoftware changes their netcode so both players data is merged together instead of seperate, i dont think they can resolve this completely. right now we only see a projection of the enemy's inputs combined with latency wich makes people teleport and act weird. on your screen it will always look like the enemy is lagging because of this. im not an expert at all but its definitely how fighting games work. the only downside to this (i could be wrong here) is that if someone invades your game, it would be impossible to synchonize it unless you have a loading screen on each invasion even for the host of the world. putting you both on this synchronized server instead of them just being in your world.
I think another option is what infernoplus did for his remasterest mod, where you have to kick the back or land a light attack with a dagger on their back.
This video explained perfectly my issues with dark souls 1 backstabs. I've legitimately had people tell me that nothing is wrong with DS1 backstabs and that it's the best pvp available out of any souls game. Dude basically told me to ignore all of the latency and check issues and just get good yknow. makes sense
thanks for posting this, i really hope they do something to make it better in Elden Ring. I would rather have no backstab attempt at all OR like you said, the hand grabbing the shoulder would be nice and cool. If only there was a third button we could press to attempt ONLY the backstab instead of basically giving up a light/heavy attack.
As someone playing since Demon's Souls on the PS3; backstabs have always felt like the jankiest part of these games combat system. Doesn't really help that the online performance of the games can range from ok to dookie on a fight-by-fight basis. From a design point of view i understand it; try to implement the RPG mechanic of a back attack and punish sluggish enemies, but it just always was weird to me how awkward of a mechanic it has been in practice. Funny enough; in Dark Souls 2 I at least liked the various little animations each weapon class got for backstabs and parries. As for my opinion on what each game was like to backstab in: Demon's Souls it was problematic, in Dark Souls it was pretty much what ended PvP ever being serious at all, in Dark Souls 2 it was annoying at worst, and in Dark Souls 3 I cannot count the amount of times a failed backstab animation got me or an opponent killed lol. Ironically; even though I personally felt it's PvP overall lackluster, Bloodborne at least tried something new with it. If it were up to me I'd try and come up with some other way for back attacks to work outside of the usual 'run-around' a guy and stab. I like the idea of R1s not combo-ing into oblivion, poise existing again, casting being allowed to be worth the investment, and jumping attacks changing how mobile we can be in a fight; it would be nice to try and spruce up how backstabs are approached.
Finally being able to see the hitboxes for dks3 backstabs and being right on how they worked just makes me feel happy. All those tips I gave people had some merit.
Lmao imagine thinking I'm going to PvP anyone with melee? How about I parkour onto a wall and start casting flurries of spells from my pretentious perch.
I don’t even think backstabs should be a pvp mechanic anymore now that we have stealth It makes no sense that you can just go behind a person during active combat and stab them in the back
I’m actually shocked that the community is upset about these changes. I’m in the boat that backstabs should just be removed. I just think that even on paper, the idea is stupid. Getting “surprised” by someone you know is there that just walks behind you is just conceptually silly. Being locked into it is even sillier. In every Dark Souls game and Demon Souls, backstabs have been a dominant strategy whether it be in PvP and especially PvE. Seriously, in PvE, whenever you fight a humanoid enemy, when or why would you not fish for backstabs? It does nutty damage, it’s completely invincible for some ridiculous reason (except in ds2 where it just reduces damage taken by a lot), and scores you a knockdown. Then add on the Hornet Ring and/or a high crit weapon… Easy PvE. When it comes to PvP, I know people want them punish parry spam and I get it. My problem is; backstabs can punish a hell of a lot more than that. Jumping attacks are nearly useless in Ds3, for example (ya know, the intended method to punish parries) because of how easy it is to just run around them and go for the booty. A heavy weapon’s R1 can be punished easily with a backstab if latency permits. God forbid they use an R2. The list goes on. I also know people want them to deal with ganks. Imo, relying on a single tool that grants high damage and invincibility is lame, but I abused the hell out of it for that reason too, so I get it. Buuut, Invaders should have a hard time dealing with ganks. BS fishing only works on really bad players, so it’s just an anti-noob strategy in group fights. Again, kinda lame. I have issues with parries too, but mainly in conjunction with the hornet ring and weapon swaps. Being one shotted at full HP by a parry is a bit much for how easy they are to pull off (latency permitting). Since Elden Rings backstabs are so unreliable, I’d rather they be removed so I don’t accidentally initiate an attempt when the enemy is running away (happens a lot in Ds3). But, I know that’s not gonna happen.
As a person dabbling in the world of Elden Ring dagger weapons and assassin-style moves and spells, backstabbing is definitely hard, that said, it isn't impossible. A lot of the new difficulty comes from players not adapting to the newer mechanic of "stance breaking". Stance breaking is specifically tied to guard breaking, counter attacking, guard countering, jumping heavy attacks, and fully held heavy attacks, as well as 'pummeling'. When you stance break someone, you can pull off a critical attack on them and there's three forms of this: The forward facing enemy kneeling crit, the back facing traditional backstab, and the back to ground crit. If you guard counter someone (block, heavy attack immediately) as a punish for either using a heavy attack or ending their combo on your block and being in animation stun, it will stancebreak them and allow for a crit. If they are blocking and you do a jumping heavy or other attack that guard breaks them, you can crit. If they were antiaired they will fall on their back and are open for a crit. Traditional backstabs only really occur now as a punish for losing track of you or as a reward for stealth and flanking between teammates. If someone's casting a long animation spell or weapon art, dont go for a backstab, but instead go for a stance break and *then* get your well earned crit. Parrying is also stancebreaking and leads to the most straight forwards crits. Pummeling is hitting a foe enough with rapid attacks or several heavies that they go into a stancebreak-- I don't recommend fishing for this as poise directly counteracts pummeling.
I don’t care too much if backstabs are rare in fights. Imo, the concept of a backstab really only makes sense on unaware enemies/players and should really just be a normal hit on aware players (like sekiro).
I feel like you didn’t read what I wrote. I don’t expect stealth attacks, what I’m saying is that I would even be fine if they removed backstabs entirely from PVP because they don’t make any sense outside of a stealth context.
Great video. I really think that the ideal solution for the franchise would be a bloodborne style backstab with better checks so that you can't just heavy someone from the front and backstab, as well as adding a system that would somehow remove burrito combos, like a forced backstab on any follow up attack or faster recovery from a backstab attempt. DS3's system is pretty good, but that iconic backstab "snap" is still a problem. Elden ring's current implementation punishes players for using light attacks at certain angles and creates situations where you lose a trade that you really shouldn't. At least with a charged heavy like from bloodborne, you will intentionally be dealing damage to create a backstab opportunity which you can then choose to take or leave. It avoids the snap issue from ds3. Second best option would be to just turn backstabs off.
Fun thing about DS2 backstabs, if you rolled through one with the lowest amount of invulnerability frames, you could desynch from your opponent, causing you to appear directly in front of your opponent, them being unable to interact you for a few seconds or until you hit them/backstabbing them while they hit your ghost.
I think Ds2 overall has the best backstab. Ds2's backstabs are somewhere between Ds1 and Ds3 but you can also cancel them if you attack another player while they're in the animation. You can pull them off consistently but you can get punished hard for them. I never felt like failing a backstab in Ds3 was punishing because the game is so fast paced compared to 2 so if you fail at it you can recover from it in an instant and spam roll multiple times to get away from possible gank squad due to forgiving stamina, which is why I always tried backstab fishing far more often than in 2.
You can cancel backstabs reliably in dks3 more so than dks2 and dks1 actually since its a 2 way check system that allows you to not get teleport backstabs. You literally can pull off backstabbing a backstab whiffed animation reliably if u know what your doing. Also, just like dks1, if u pull the bs at the same time, it cancels out as well.
They could reduce the turn speed of characters. Making it harder to prevent backstabs but requires more though in advance to prevent being backstabbed. Tom Clancy the division had this issue with people dodging too fast and creating a hit box that was so small it was rare to hit. They took away the almost instant turn when you run in a direction, both making the movement feel really nice and fixing the movement spam encouraging players to find cover instead and flank
Great change. They could just remove backstabbing for good and it would be great as well. I also would like they reduced overall attacking recovery frames and INCREASE recovery frames for rolling or reduced i frames AND speed from rolling with each subsequent roll.
Great job man, your delivery was concise and always on point and your suggestions are remarkably simple but intriguing. You got yourself a subscriber, keep it up.
I get everything that was said here but backstabs in pvp silly anyway. Some players were and are only fishing for them making slow ass weapon unusable in some scenarios, also faces stabs still occurs as said in this video. Backstab should be a stealth mechanic anyway or atleast not being abused in a way that makes the pvp look so stupid much like it was in dark soul1 and still kinda is in dark soul 3. Let’s be real, they are even abusable in Pve making it easier that it can already be. One of the boss we saw in Elden ring tests was basically getting backstabbed to death by most players, which looks as ridiculous as playing against someone fishing backstab and barely attacking. Also perseverance and high latency, yea…
This was a very fascinating video. From what I've seen in comments, it seems like the best possible courses of action could be: a) undo the new Elden Ring check and add an animation for graphical consistency of face-stabs b) implement DS2 poise system
The fundamental problem with backstabs is that for them to make sense mechanically there needs to be a check at the start of the attack, and for them to make sense visually there needs to be a check at the end of the attack. But if you don't remove one of these checks, backstabs will be way too difficult to hit to hit, because nobody ever stands still for the entire length of a backstab animation. Alternatively, the whole issue could be sidestepped by just making the animation very fast (which is what Team Fortress 2 did).
Now that the game is out I can honestly say im super happy about backstabs being nonexistent. I played a bit of all the dark souls games before elden ring came out. And in 1, 2 ,and 3. The pvp is 99% backstab fishing. Its so nice that people actually focus on combating eachother instead of both players spinning around eachother with their shields up, just waiting for a backstab.
NGL I thought this was a prod video from your thumbnail. The forma looked similar enough that I didn't think twice thinking this was a backstab rant from prod.
It might help if the angle checks were different on attempt and confirmation. So for initiating a backstab you need to be within 35 degrees but for confirmation purposes you need to be within 90 degrees. Obviously better netcode would be even better but some tweaking might make this system viable
I feel you should just feel free to make longer videos. I see you end your videos early often just because you feel it’s gotten to a desired length of time, but sometimes it’s good to explore something in depth and just make a longer video.
pretty sure fighting games run in lockstep which forces each client to have the same picture of the world state at the cost of if any player lags the game pauses until they're back or they drop.
Off topic but I feel like passive poise has the serious possibility to destroy PvP build variety in this game. Including the hyper armour definitely improves it from DS1 but it's still likely that fast weapons will be able to out-damage slow weapons for a trade as long as the guy with the fast weapon can poise through the first attack from the slow weapon, and even worse if they can break the passive poise of the slow weapon guy. Even if the fast weapon guy can't poise through a slow attack, that would make slow weapons overpowered since you would be able to attack basically with impunity. It's a very difficult situation and I'm surprised they brought it back because I thought they'd learned their lesson by now.
