Why Everyone Is Switching To "Sweetened" Tuning 

funny anecdote....in 1991 I started working as guitar tech for Jeff Healey during the recording of the album "Feel This". I set up and tuned his guitar and he handed it back to me after just a minute. "It's out of tune and the intonation is out too" I was shocked. I checked it on my strobe and it was perfect. I ended up realizing that I had to set-up the guitar and tune it the way he played it....with it on his lap....the body on his right leg lap with the neck resting on his left lap and with his left hand hovering over the fretboard (like playing a piano)...

There was a video by James Taylor explaining this tuning about 15 years ago.

As a violinist as well as guitar player, we were always taught to tune up to pitch because tuning down can allow tension between the nutt and the peg or tuner can maintain a stretch that can slip through as you are playing. So there's two cents worth on why tune from under your target tone/open string note.

I'm only about 19 minutes in to this conversation and it's pretty interesting so far. Thanks guys. I was taught to use harmonics to tune early on, I think it's even in the first 5 pages of any Mel Bay book. I had just assumed everyone tuned that way. I use my clip on but I always have to get after, like you say, that B string. Doesn't everybody? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you said, Grant. Maybe it gets cleared up so I'll git back to it.

Yeah Grant, that is the ‘old’ way of tuning a piano. I have been a pianotuner, and my boss learned me that way of tuning. You tune the middle part of the piano beginning with the tuning fork to tune the A on the left of the central C. So first the A than the E above that.. then the E below just using the octave. Than the B above the lower E. It’s tuning using the fifths (and fourths.). You first tune the A and E with no oscillation between them , and then pull the E down so you hear an oscillation of 1 second between them. It took me a quite some time to hear and tune that correctly. These days I can pretty quickly hear if a piano is not tuned like that. It always seems slightly out of tune with some chords to me. Very good of your father to teach you that way of tuning. 👍🙂

Love the Petersen Strobe Tuner. It might be big, but it’s very easy to get in the zone.

Excellent conversation gents! I applaud this information and everything you cats have said is absolutely spot on! However, how did we get the end without mentioning Buzzy Feiten? I went very far down the tuning rabbit hole back in the late 90's and for years played a Tom Anderson with Buzzy's adjusted fret spacing. It got to where I couldn't play any "normal" guitars as they sounded so out of tune. But then I fell in love with a 175 from 1961. I made a conscious decision to abandon precise tuning and embrace the inherent out of tune-ness of the guitar as a platform. My ultimate point is that NO guitar is ever actually in "tune" because the fret spacing equation is missing the changing string tension term. That's what Buzzy did was add the change in string tension when fretting a string to the fretboard layout equation. Tempered tuning is already "out" and guitar adds even one more layer of out-ness. In the end you guys are exactly right tho, ALWAYS tune up to the note (indeed I even pull on the string if I go above and have to drop it below to come up again) , ALWAYS strike the string as you will when performing and not thinking about it, ALWAYS tune and intonate in playing position and if every other bit has been addressed and the thing still sounds out, the pickup is too close... I forgot to mention, I just bought the new Peterson upgrading from the blue pedal strobe I got the day they released it (I think that was the late 90's as well). and Marcus is right, you've got to take a look at how you touch the instrument in all phases and consider and compensate. For example I have a pretty heavy hand and there is no chance I could play a guitar with 8's on it in tune no matter how precisely it was tuned.

I bought my first tuner in 1972 (73?). It was an all-tube, Conn Strobotuner, a lovely little machine.

I always tune my instruments on the 5th fret. I realized early on that the guitar, no matter how well i tuned it open, never sounded right everywhere. 5th or 7th fret give a better over all a average.

String age can play into this as well... great conversation today. Thanks guys!

There are a lot of negative nancy type comments about this video, but personally Im glad that i listened to the whole episode. I appreciate the deep dive into everyone's observations and comparisons of experience. This discussion validated a lot of observations I've had iver the course of 40 years of guitar, and explained things that I've done in relation to tuning, some of which I wasn't conciously aware. Thank you for offering perspectives I hadnt considered, and for sharing your experience.

I started using compensated "sweetened" tuning for about a year now and it makes all the difference in the world. I followed how James Taylor did it, but now I tune to the note at the 5th fret, 3rd string at the 4th.

Been doing this for ages. I think every experienced session guitarist with a good ear does...

I play fretless basses, so I don't have any tuning issues.

The way I tune which always works great: assuming the guitar is correctly intonated and installed: Tune A string with tuning fork, then low E and D with harmonics, then G with 12 fret harmonic A string and 2nd fret G string. Then b and e with harmonics. Then finetune to the guitar itself: tune octaves G>g D>d and g>high g 3rd fret e string) so that they are 100%. Then play 3x0033. If that chord is 100% the guitar is in tune. In that last test the A string is left out because that was our initial step on which everything else was built. A guitar tuned by only an electronic tuner is never in tune.

I've been a Peterson Sweetened tuning guy for years. It works for me.

I heard Leo Kottke say that tuning a guitar is an oxymoron.

Peterson tuners (StroboStomp and StroboPlus) do NOT come pre-set with the GTR (sweetened) tuning selected, as stated in the video. EQU (equal temperament) is the default setting out of the box. As it should be.

I'm by no means a good guitarist, but my guitar teacher taught me to tune using harmonics. It came in handy because in the old vinyl days, not every album I played to would be on the same pitch. I'd usually retune the A string to the album and use harmonics to tune the rest.

A bit overwhelming to be sure, but wow! What a unique conversation about something we've all taken for granted, ignored, or misunderstood - you hit ALL the things I'd never really fully considered. I recall getting my first Anderson w/Buzzy Feiten, and yes, I could HEAR the difference. My luthier explained to me that he'd paid a physicist to get him a compensated guitar model for his instruments, which I could also HEAR, similar to Buzzy's I think. Jon is a friend, and tuning's one thing we've never discussed - it was typically the Guytron.

And anyone that worked with Waddy has my total respect. I think he’s my favourite guitarist ever.

For general playing - tune at the 7th fret and with a medium (for your paying stye) pick attack. If you are a lead player, you may tune at the 12th fret with a softer attack. Higher jumbo frets mean you should be mindful of what fret pressure you apply - try to use your average playing pressure. In the studio, you should tune per track. This principle has been around forever.

I've used various methods to tune my guitars over the years. Many years ago, when i first started, there were no "clip on" tuners. I used to use an actual harmonica (note the A on the end!) to get my E strings in rune, then tune the other strings relative to them. But i quit playing for over 3 decades. I just stopped altogether. But i couldn't get away from the fact that i always had music on my head that wanted to get out! I was unhappy, unfulfilled. So, i started back playing. I won't get into the whole story here, but suffice it to say that I've made rapid progress. And i use various clip in tuners now. And, yeah, i know how to tune with harmonics, tuning forks, etc. i know how to listen for that interference pattern. Somewhere along the way, i realized that tuning open strings didn't end up with fretted strings being in tune. It has ro do with the size if your frets, how "hard" you play, gauge of strings, etc. But i always felt my guitar was in tune better when i adjusted different strings slightly different. Sweeter, i suppose! Not long ago i bought a tuner that will tell me, via LED display, how far off my tuning us, in cents. I don't remember the name, but it's awesome! I've now developed a habit of tuning with this very sensitive and useful tuner, to tune the open strings such that they sound correct (to me) when i play. I consider it sweetened, but i don't know how it compares to any scientifically measured tuning. It really sounds good to me! In my experience, the B string is the trickiest to get right.

Very interesting. I’m always messing with tuning and intonation. I wonder what a person with “ perfect pitch “ goes through? I used to think that was the Gold Medal of ear training but now I wonder if people with real perfect pitch hear everything out of tune? I wonder if it drives them nuts?

Thanks Marcus. Some technical information there that i didn't consider.

Thanks for a great discussion! After 30 years of playing I now realize I may be using sweetened tuning without realizing it. :D I've always called it "tuning the guitar to itself" after getting my low Eb in tune with a tuner. The Ab I play on the 5th fret of the Eb string when tuning may be a few cents off "true" Ab, the Db on the Ab string may be a few cents off, and down the line these little offsets go.

my favorite stringing and tuning is - use the bottom three strings of two sets, and set the others aside. Tune to EADGBE or however you normally tune, but...now your 'higher' strings aren't thinner, so they have to be tuned at lower octaves also - so then the pitches are closer together and you can get more like piano ish chords and because they're all lower/thicker strings, it sounds massive and thick and warm and sweet, and man is it satisfying being able to metal-chug properly on all 6 strings. I call it the 'all wound strings' tuning. it's simple

I've had compensated Tusq nuts hand-cut for every one of my guitars (which is based on real-world values that change based on string guage, preventing me from switching guages) by a guy in Gloucester, MA named Peter Mercurio, based on Mike McConville's method shared on youtube (mcconville guitars). He even goes in and files the bridge takeoff points (when necessary) to get everything as perfect as possible. I swear by it despite the added inflexibility in strings it adds. I also swear by Gotoh 21:1 tuning machines where possible.

Works for tea. Works for tuning.

Thank you guys for the information. This is genuinely so helpful.

didn't the Buzz Feiten system correct the tuning of a guitar (not having to compensate)?

I'm a piano tuner and technician, a job which I've done for 43 years, and I've never even *heard* of 'Sweetened Tuning.' I'm also a guitarist, and am acutely aware of how important intonation is on a guitar. (For example, on most acoustic guitars, the 2nd string is almost always sharp, and on every acoustic I've ever owned I've had to get my guitar tech to install a split bridge saddle - as we see on some brands, such as Takamine and Lowden). Obviously I know what equal temperament tuning is, and I'm aware that in baroque and pre-baroque eras harpsichords, organs, etc were sometimes tuned to be right for given keys, but which would not be suitable for other keys. And in my case, I tune pianos where A5 = 440 Hertz, using a tuning fork to middle 'C' and tuning the bearing octave from that. But from Bach onwards, pianos, organs and other keyboards have been tuned using equal temperament tuning, in order to enable to play in any key without any given key being out of tune. What I gather from what the Chairmen of the Boards is saying, some guitarists are using some of the pre-baroque tunings, as favoured by players of ancient music, who play harpsichords, virginals, clavichords, etc. What surprises me is that 'sweetened tunings' should be used by players who are likely to modulate from one key to another - as Donald Fagen so often does, and which many jazz guitarists do a great deal. In other words, some things are going to be out of tune - at least, for those of us with a acute sense of relative pitch. Who would have thought it..?

Its taken over half a century to reach my own best guess ideal, dont shoot me yet, i use the harmonics on the 7th and `19th frets if they intonate reasonably well there ...i can sleep ok! i really enjoyed this extremely ,thankyou , the best bargain anyone could buy IS an A`440 TUNING FORK .😇👍🎼

Yes , flatten the b and high e, while tuning to an open d chord, and a g sus, then a powerchord . And get it tuned as close as it can get between those 3 shapes.

Great discussion. As a "not-professional" musician I am pleasantly surprised at how much of what is being discussed here is normal to me. I really enjoyed the experiences that Marcus related to the public. You can tell his experience really is experience. When you started with the "nut" conversation I was a little surprised to hear such a long interpretation of the string height (set up) between music people this experienced. In the tuner discussion, I'm sure I heard some tuning problems with a live band this weekend due to the electronic board. I'm guessing everyone else prepped with their guitar tuners and the keyboard was not in sync with them. I would love to know what gauge that "thin" metal strip was that was used to test the magnetic field.

I never really knew what the "Sweetened" setting on my Strobostomp HD meant, but I've been using that ever since I got it in early '23! Lol

Using Peterson tuners was a game changer. The sweetened tunings make a big dirrerence.

Gravity affects the neck, not the string. The string is being affected by gravity regardless of the guitar’s orientation. Tuning with guitar flat vs. playing position will make it come out a bit sharp.

Playing with a pianist, I tune the low E to an A (using a harmonic) then tune each string up with reference to the lower string (Mel Bay style) this has always worked for me as long as I am not using a capo.

I’ve been using Buzz Feiten tuning and nuts for years now- I’d never go back.

I have my Helix tuner set to minus 4 cents on the G-string, works for me.

I'm just happy if I get two solid arrows on my tuner.

I feel that having a good ear is the key. I worked with a guy in my younger years who would tune his guitar with a tuner of the day, like a Korg, but would never go back to see if one of the early strings had gone out while he was tuning the rest of the strings. Then he would attempt to play, It used to piss me off that he couldn't hear he wasn't in tune with me, and was adamant that since he had used a tuner, as I had, that his guitar was actually in tune.

When I played upright bass, I would ask the piano player to play a Dm chord to tune my A. It's easier to hear the 5th of a minor chord. Of course, the rest is the ear as tuner, since I didn't have frets (thank goodness)...

Can we please address Mandolin tuning? I use the Strobo Stomp and have found success with the MAN sweetener. However, the good news that I might need to be ok with 7 cents flat after the attack is showing in tune is super helpful. There is no such thing as a soft attack on mandolin even if you play with a soft right hand. The string tension is so drastically heavier that it seems that all attacks are hard in comparison with any guitar acoustic or electric.

Gosh so deep i to this and still no explanation of what it is moving on. I currently tune to a440 and all other strings to the a string - no oscillations, works for guitar going back to my pro classical days now w strata

I used to REALLY annoy everyone in my college and grad school days because I literally did not own a tuner. I tuned my A string to the bassist and then tuned relative. Never knew if I was anywhere near actual tune. When there was a keys player, I tuned to his or her A. :) Ever since my FIRST show, there is always someone (who knows the history) who yells "DON'T TUNE! JUST PLAY!" LOL!

When you tune to the 7th fret (the middle of the neck)all strings to a B chord the intonation should be good up and down the neck until you get to close to the open chords...retune for open chords .

“Reportedly, Beck was quiet but calm backstage, puzzling his new bandmates with one of his more eccentric practices: the fine art of ”not tuning up. “In all my time with the band,” Relf remembered, “Jeff just didn’t tune his guitar. He’d get it about halfway there, then leave it. If you asked, ‘What’s going on?’ he just say, ‘Don’t worry, I’ll sort it out’. Then, we were on, and was he bending the strings to pitch - bending the strings into tune. It was bloody amazing.” From Hot Wired Guitar: The Life of Jeff Beck Martin Power

so ya should tune with the pickup ur using? then switch to other and your slightly out...? great topic guys

When I started playing I didn't know tuners existed and learned to start with a tuning fork initially and use harmonics from there. Even when I began using my first tuner, Boss, my ears would be able to hear when a string, usually the B, needed tweaking and I did it with harmonics

One thing I've learned from RU-vid and social media is just to keep doing what I've always done. The weird things I've always done are the same weird things that someone eventually validates and says to do.

Fascinating podcast. Really appreciated this. Marcus' experience and knowledge was really eye opening.

Being a fellow geek and tone freak this was the greatest episode! Thnx guys. Loving it.

when i first started playing guitar i tuned to steve jones guitar on the song pretty vacant by the sex pistols, it's been so long now i can do it by ear and still do.

I’ve been gigging all my life for the last 35+ years, and of course I have a totally different compensation for my white falcon with Bigsby, in fact, I have a ritual of pulling hard on the G, and then smacking the tremolo arm, and so on, and then for my acoustic guitar, I can use my tuner without any compensation whatsoever, because I’m lucky enough to have a very stable Takamine which happens to resonate beautifully with my tuner. A great topic for today’s video.

FL Studio 21 has a cents tuner as well.

Im.playing 35 years, but also exsperience is as a solo player. The way I tune is whichever flatting or sharping produces the most resonance harmonics and sustain on the open strings of the instrument. And the G string for some reason always flats a quarter tone down while the B and E string are a few cents flat. Playing eastern and flamenco type music, makes a huge difference, it adds a quartertone/microtone which allows a vibrato bend up. For some reason after listening to eastern folk music for a while, the flat quarter tones sound more musical and in-tune that equal temperament.

This was a very interesting podcast, thanks for doing it. I ordered a strobe tuner because of this.

Idea? Floyd Rose, floats. How does that affect the tuning?

Part of the whole tuning thing are things like the Buzz Feitin's inbuilt mechanical intonation adjustment on the actual instrument itself. I haven't heard much more about this system for the last ten years.

This is and always will be an on going problem, our ears change day to day, so it’s a total progression of what’s on and what’s off, ahhhhh, let’s just love the music we are trying to make and listen to, as Ringo would say, love and peace man.

Sweetened tuning massively improved tuning on major thirds on the high strings for me. The tuner in HX Effects has string offsets in 1 cent increments and I found a fake sweetened tuning formula online that someone estimated from the Peterson formula. I also have a Peterson clip on tuner for my acoustic and the sweetened tuning also made major improvements in major thirds.

Thanks guys. I have learn a lot!!

Hugely valuable knowledge and experience from Marcus. I learned a lot. Thanks.

Really informative video! thanks guys and keep up the good work! 🤘🏼🔥🤘🏼🔥

Note on the Nut issue, there are 2 ways to reduce the Nut height, and often is is by grooving, but for better tone often the Nut needs to be trimmed at the base, to allow best vibration.

I believe Paul Reed Smith advised to tune with the neck pickup and turn the tone knob all the way down.

I've always approached intonation by my playing style, particularly my left hand. I instinctively move my left hand as I play notes to move strings in tune, especially chords like an open position D chord.

I always have the G string slightly flat, because I pull it in tune with my playing (which is a playing flaw - I squeeze too hard).

Great information

Great discussion on compensated tuning. Bookmarking this. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

Going zero nut and utilizing Leo Quan badass wrap around bridge helps this left handed player tremendously..

Great information guys! Thanks!

I've always found the B string a special case because it's a major 3rd instead of a 4th and it's a bit of a dissonant interval. My .02¢ "All" mass produced guitars have nuts cut too high.

This was an interesting chat, and I learned a lot of new tips to try. I have two questions: 1. When using the "Sweetened tuning" with the Peterson tuner, do I intonate my guitar with a "normal" preset" or the "Sweetened tuning" preset? 2. I play a Telecaster with the 3 saddle bridge (2 strings per saddle). My saddles are compensated to a degree (beveled offsets), but even so, it is very difficult to get a Tele in tune. I have tried the 6 saddle bridge option, and just prefer the tone of the 3 saddle bridge. Any suggestions?

Use a wound 3rd. Your G will never be out of tune. The greats used them in the early days. Man up.

Maybe it's just me but... I just tune open strings and I'm done till it goes out. If it's out, it's out all the way up the fret board. I do have to re tune when putting on the capo because it tends to apply excessive pressure. The same is true on scalloped necks. You really have train the fingers and ear until it's right.

Thank you for this, I learned a lot. 🙂

I guess all these years,(55+ years) I've used a Tuner or tuned to a keyboard, then re-tuned to the chords I played and or the potion of the chord(bared or open).

Everyone? I think you mean "some people." Personally and professionally I am not aware of anyone who has switched. A solution without a problem. Well done.

Guitar players will never run out of things to obsess over.😂 The problem on guitar is the more you tune to one chord/set of intervals, the more dissonant other chords/intervals will be. It's the inherent nature of the guitar and the equally tempered scale. Don't get me wrong, I applaud the effort and ideas. I play synthesizers as well and with some of them you can microtune and it makes a noticeable difference when the intervals are in harmony (ha!). Regarding pickup height, I've always set mine lower than any recommendation I've ever seen/heard.

I always tune for the song/position on the fretboard I’ll be in for the song. The nut height is a huge factor that has to be as low as you can get away with.

Great👏vid👏fellas👏 Thank you so much!!!!

Having a larger distance from pickup to string, you can kill sustain of notes. If pickup is too far away, you lose crispness and sharper/brighter overtones and as you increase distance you begin to lose volume.

@grant @goodwood : for your tuning library, i believe that wave that you were discribing between two notes that are close together but not quite in tune is called a differential tone. Shout out to Houston Community College audio department 😂😂😂

Cool 😎. You gentlemen are awesome.😅, the Sweetwater deal SOUNDS GREAT FOR ME. I NEED TO DOWNSIZE.❤.. THX MASON ,

I usually straight tune but I have song that requires me to detune the G. Most of the riffing is in the cowboy range.

DIVED ? Dove ! geeze

All the Van Halen records until OU812 were totally ear tuned by Eddie. He didn't tune "a half step down" but whatever he thought was "A" or "E" by memory and had Mike tune to him and then they'd cut the tracks. Later when Eddie starting "tuning to pitch" because of how hard he played and how light his strings were, he had to have a highly compensated tuning to work live. Most players would pick up his guitar and it's "out of tune" to them but when he played it, it sounded perfect.

I got a Peterson strobe and while it was fun to look at the bypass is so sluggish and the sweetened tuning was throwing me off in eb standard but I'm sure with some more time and settings I could figure it out. But I went back to a polytune because it's bulletproof and when you hit the button it turns off (or on) without thinking about it.

No one said were to tune from for best tuning at the amp or from the guitar , held or pluged in. Does amp hum effect tuning

I find this very interesting. Bad intonation on one guitar can destroy the whole band. As Grant pointed out, a correct cut nut is really important. All guitars should have a first fret instead of the nut? In my experience it is also important to retune after putting a capo on. Sweetened tuning? Interesting, I will dig into it. Think I have a Peterson somewhere... :)

Everyone in Steely Dan can't possibly be required to have perfect pitch; the dude must mean an excellent sense of pitch, which is quite a different and far more attainable ability. Perfect pitch means you can always instantly hear and identify a note without reference to anything else, like when you wake up from a nap and someone sings F#, you hear and identify it instantly just as you would probably recognize the distinct tones of red, blue and yellow without needing to see other colors in comparison first. Few musicians would ever qualify to be in a band that demands perfect pitch, not to mention that great relative pitch is good enough, and rarely will there be a need in a rock band setting, with tuned instruments to sing along with, for anyone to need perfect pitch. A multitude of other skills are far more important for the members of a great rock band, like tasteful phrasing and a great ability to lock in with the other players and respond to subtle things in their playing because you're such a good listener, even while playing killer parts.

When you go up the fret you're almost always sharp when you get up around 10th fret.... Especially on the lower strings ....so I tune those slighly flat

Has anyone noticed how top loading stays in tune better than thru body. Obviously the thru body will sound more clear because of the break angle of the string but just my 2 cents.

I find myself tuning by ear after I've gotten it close enough with a pedal or a clip-on. There are always a few oscillations here and there to clear up. The only thing even close to the human ear is a real well calibrated strobe tuner. I started tuning by ear with a fork as a kid. When you learn to tune by ear you tune by how it sounds not by a needle or a number on a machine. For recording or specific songs that require major chords played across D, G, and B I'll slightly detune by B string to fix that awful oscillation.

Are those offsets calculated from standard tempered tuning? Or from non tempered?

This works for me ... get your A and D perfect with tuner then play chords with no 3rds with heavy distortion and tune B E and low E then play clean cowboy chords and adjust to taste. Then do it all again. Then write down your percentages. And hand that to your tech that makes 4x what u do on your next tour

Excellent podcast. It was sometimes difficult to hear what was being discussed when everyone was speaking at the same time. And the outro music was a bit distracting as the guest was still speaking. Cheers.