Why GM 3.0 and 3.6 V6 Timing Chains Fail 

Your uncle sounds like the kind of driver who checks their engine oil at least once a month.

Doubtful. Many on the forums would disagree.

Maintenance and due diligence. Good quality oil is cheaper than a new motor.

@Jimmy S see the Project Farm RU-vid videos for oil testing. They found Amazon synthetic was best for the price, and AmsOil was best for more money. For an engine known to have reliability problems, change the oil early, and check the level every gas fill up. Especially important for a Fiat or Mazda RX-7 or 8.

My wife drove a 2013 Equinox with the 3.6 for 245k miles. We always changed oil at 3000 miles. Never had a timing chain issue and never used oil.

Yes my daily driver has 400000 3.8 2004 Grand Prix,I have 2006 2.8 CT’s same as the3.6, only drive it spring summer fall for pleasure and use synthetic and hi quality filters. The 3.6 and 2.8 not as good on fuel as the iron 3.8

Good motor.. old pushrod design that's reached it's ceiling. High feature engine is decent enough, just needs proper maintenance and probably a catch can.

Best engine

My 2007 buick lacrosse has the 3800 series 3, it has 130k miles and still runs like new

Yeah, because everyone wants a gutless, gas guzzling lump that catches fire and burns people's houses down!

Thank you

Agreed, this information is going to save my ass, and wallet. I've always been a 5000km oil change guy, and I swear by Lucas oil stabilizer, to add a bit more viscosity that synthetic oils lack.... oil is useless after 8000kms, does not matter how good it is when new, carbon deposits, depleted additives, and viscosity breakdown is a guarantee, change your oil on time and you won't regret it.... My 12,000 RPM red line, Suzuki Gxr sport bike gets its oil dumped at 2500kms even though I used $18.00(Cad) a liter Motul brand race oil, probably the best oil in the world, but it's beaten to shit by then.

@@brentneves3602 In 1976, the valve seals in my '71 Mustang 302 engine had dried out, cracked and fallen apart. The engine had 129K miles on it and had received oil and filter changes every 2-3k miles, using Quaker State Super Blend 10w-30 (API- SF) oil. While I had the engine heads off and disassembled, I "miked" the valve stems, finding them in the midrange of the new production tolerances. Furthermore, in the top of the cylinders, where a ridge "forms" due to wear of the cylinder bore, there was no ridge. That was in the era of API "SF" oil. Today we have not just conventional, but also synthetic oils, and they are carrying API "SN" and "SN+" ratings. I'm willing to believe that your 2500 km oil changes in the 12,000 rpm motorcycle may well be justified but your 5000 km changes in a street vehicle sound positively ridiculous when compared to oil performance from 4 decades ago. Various sources are pulling us between 3000 miles (4500 km, which is a severe service, worse case example) and 10,000 miles/1 year. Some oil manufacturers are now claiming 15K, 20K, even 25K while at least 2 YT video makers are claiming 36K & 72K mile (54 km & 108 km)over multiyear intervals are being analysis approved. Your 5000 km interval is just as ridiculous as the very high recommended intervals. I don't care whose oil, or its cost, it isn't going over 7500 miles in my engines.

@@1redrubberball Not sure how your ONE vintage car can be extrapolated across every car in the word. OK BOOMER...

@@tomleykisfan7280 Well, I laid it out there on the buffet table and you weren't required to eat it, and obviously didn't. It's your life, your money, your call.

I believe your 2004 engine does not have VVT. If not, it's a whole different ball game......

Milo Janis nope, 2004 3.6 is a VVT motor. It isn’t direct injected but it does have VVT. It’s my understanding that these motors have the same timing chain issues as the ones that are a few years newer. 2004 was the first year of the motor and mine being built in late 2003 it’s an early first year, first gen 3.6.

05 with almost 250 on it knock on wood😂

Exactly! It was the people who would go 10K and listen/ignore the oil life monitor who would usually have problems. GM probably started most of this with the oil life monitor system though and saying the vehicles were “low maintenance”.

hi mate, i replaced chains, all sensors, phasers but still same code P0008, P0016.. Can tone ring(reluctor wheel) be a problem? If yes, how can i fix the issue without replacing the whole crankshaft?

hi mate, i replaced chains, all sensors, phasers but still same code P0008, P0016.. Can tone ring(reluctor wheel) be a problem? If yes, how can i fix the issue without replacing the whole crankshaft?

@@aykutyildiz7133 more than likely the reluctor ring slipped on the crank to repair it properly you need to replace the crank. Could you move the Reluctor on crank to get rid of the codes? Yeah you probably but I wouldn’t do that

@@peanutbutterisfu thanks for the reply.. I just opened my oil pan. Can you please check the photo of my reluctor wheel.. i.ibb.co/8D5rjVX/2d722d75-3fcb-4af3-9e30-65390b8a98c22.jpg

James Last yes and check the oil,weekly I have a 3.6 cts check oil weekly goes down a pint in 5000 miles . A co worker changed his oil on his 2007 3.6 every 10000 lolo I told him to check it was 4 quarts down at 9800 miles , I told him I would not go over 5000 and to use synthetic and gm filters he said that was to expensive lolol. I predict his car is going to the crusher in 12 months

I couldn’t agree more.

Correct Jerry! Newer gm vehicles require a dex os certification that only synthetics have.

Shadow Opp.'s RC I think a valvoline conventional has the dex os rating.

@@GrumpyMarine1978 it use to but not anymore.

Richard S, why on Earth would use oil not specified for these engines? You know more than the designers? Use the specified oil ,change it regularly , no issues

That’s a lot of information. Are you a petroleum engineer or something?!

We bill that’s because people are stupid...

That's because the owners manual tells them you don't have to change the oil until the oil life reads to change the oil. This us out the manual for a 2019 CTS with the 3.6 L V-6 engine which I purchased at the end of May 2019. No way would I rely on the oil life read. Personally I think the the engine should have been designed with a "dry sump" system. This would circulate the the oil before start up and the VVT engine would have proper lubrication at start up. Then do your oil level checks and maintenance regular. Give me back the day of the 5.0 L and 5.7 L engine. By the way my CTS has 700 mile currently on it with its first oil change being done at 1000 miles, then ever 3000 afterward. A lot of wear metal in the first 1000 miles of a new engine break in. Of course the dealer disagrees with me telling me to wait for the oil life indicator. One other thing is GM is pushing to use there lube oil for the vehicle. I heard special lube is going to be offered by the oil brands soon for these engines.

I seen a eco tech engine turbo lock up and then they ran the engine dry. the engine was gone told the engine is done and the turbo is lock up. they though i was full of shit next guy told them the same thing.

People are ignorant. I have worked on two cars for some of my lady friends and they are apologizing to me about how they forgot to change the oil and its been 12,000 miles + since the last change.

tone167 true true lolololol

Bummer. That has to be expensive. Yeah you never know how that first 110k miles went.

How about poorly designed and poorly made chain tensioners supplied with insufficient oil pressure to keep the chains tight and prevent chain slap.

@@Anonymous-it5jw it exactly what they have done, all the way to making oil check valves in oil passages OPTIONAL... no wonder upper engine lub channels have low pressure upon startup. It could not be any other way but troublesome

the olm-[oil life monitor] was considered "approved" time to change oil, owners just drove car until the light went on, later gm changed the olm programming on new cars and advised a reflash on used. With Variable valve timing, the engines are pretty technological, so frequent oil changes and use of dexos rated syn works excellently. These direct injected engines have created more sludge and coking which is suspended better in syn oil. Keep engine internals clean and they are good engine.

@Pos dem The upgrades did nothing. They just fail out of warranty especially the pre LFX engines.

What did you do to add a catch can? How do you do that?

@@williamcallahan9411 Every vehicle is a bit different, but in general terms, you are just shunting in the catch can between the PCV valve and the intake manifold. In this way, moisture, oil, acidic vapors leave the engine and enter the catch can where the majority of material is condensed and left in the can with only the crankcase fumes to be sent back to the intake manifold for final ingestion. Leaving the heavy material ie oil in the can in theory should help prevent cokeing on the back side of the intake valves on direct injected gasoline engines. Just do a search on catch cans and the benefit on direct injected gas engines and you’ll find a wealth of information…hope this helps

@@siskiyouwoodsmann4279 Thank You. After looking at a couple other videos and reading some comments i kinda sorted that out. Looks alot like what a separator for a compressor would do. Is there any reason one of those wouldnt do the job?

Also wondering if you know when GM started using the updated valve cover gasket in this motor. I asked that question in the posts, no answer yet.

@@siskiyouwoodsmann4279 dude that explanation of a catch can was brilliant👌

If they would’ve only put an oil level sensor on these engines. Many repairs wouldn’t have been necessary. Don’t get me wrong, the chains are a weak link (pun intended). But they’re definitely the first thing to go when the oil disappears.

Watch for Guy Puroulx as he is very anti-GM and pro-Toyota. His arguement ts are very weak and has no substance.

@@normt5463 Just like people argue that Norm's arguments are very weak and have no substance all over you tube, car and driver, the truth about cars, etc.

@tone167 parts come from around the world today. Models are not much more than a label today.

Just buy a Toyota Highlander and be done with it. Junk all the GM scrap

I think it’s because people just rely heavily on the oil life monitor and don’t check the level in between oil changes. In the service manual it probably recommends checking the oil monthly. But we all know nobody ever reads the owner’s manual.

@@PetesGarageandperformance yet they are taking dipsticks out of cars..... same with transmission dipsticks

Thank you

@@PetesGarageandperformance What year did gm update the 3.6 and do they still have issues after that?

Everything is so much more credible when the explanations are provided. I have more confidence in this advice than anything else I've been able to find. Now, short of tearing the engine apart, is there a way I can check how well the previous own kept up with the oil change schedule when I look at a used vehicle?

Good information

Do the newer 3.6l vehicles have this problem. I’m looking at 2018-2021 Buick Enclave avenue for my wife with a 3.6 v6

I always do 3k oil changes but I don't have DI. If I were to get a car with DI engine, I would only go with a Dual Injection version which also runs port injectors which cleans the back side of the intake valves.

@@marketingmajor8126 need up buying a palisade limited and order an oil catch can since a gdi

How much did it cost you, did it make a rattling sound and did it stop running before you replaced the chains?

Samoremusiclover The chain kit plus water pump , thermostat, hoses, etc , cost me $500. In parts, did the job myself as I’m a mechanic of many years. Runs like new now ! 👍

@@brycejames2127 ugh I need you in Ohio lol.

@@brycejames2127 no but seriously my car starts but won't stay started. I've had the spark plugs replaced, lower intake manifold replaced, there's gas in the engine but it still won't stay running. Do you know what it could be?

Samoremusiclover well you could have a fuel pump issue, injectors, spark issue, could also be the cam or crank sensors , their is many variables . Start going through it one by one , but don’t sink a lot of money into it, can get expensive real quick ! Most people just sell or junk the older enclaves , not worth fixing! The 3.6 L can be a real pain! Best of luck ! 🙏

Thanks!

I dont own a gm anymore a girl at work has a 2015 cadillac srx no complaints yet it only has 89ooo km

Fantastic. Make sure that orifice is clear in the valve cover.

Absolutely...will do

Make sure the pcv orifice is clear and you get the updated valve cover gasket. Check back and let us know if your oil consumption lowers.

Good to hear.

tensioners are loose while the oil pressure builds up... simply because check valves were removed from oil channels so they drain down overnight

@Swadian Knight The northstar V8 was such a shitty engine gm should be embarrassed. Now we're even

Common sense. Take care of your vehicle.

Swadian Knight mine did what I expect from a engine and vehicle.. 2000 excursion v10 240,000 all orig and never stranded me.. still going... just got a startup tick from a lifter

Swadian Knight Yup the v10 isn’t a diesel and does not pull like one..Just like a Harley guy mounting a 2stroke or a 11’000 rpm 4 stroke.. He would call them gutless but that’s not their design.. They made the V10 to approximate the 7.3 in performance.. only way is to spin it..And people expect it to be a torque monster.... nope.. Is what it is.. Mine was a people mover.. but I’m a truck driver, and on weekends I see all the toy haulers broken down with the hood up... guess what? All diesels... 4 strokes may burn fuel and take longer to climb hills.. but there is a better chance of you arriving... maybe cuz there are more diesels pulling than 4 strokes.. why I see so many with a ruined weekend

Thank you. It’s crazy how few people actually check their oil nowadays. I blame it on our throw it away society we live in. Also the OEMs trying to make their vehicles “maintenance free”. At least that what people think.

tone167 right?

​@@PetesGarageandperformanceGreat video. The car wizard even said that the Chevy 3.6L engines are crap, are famous for timing chain failures.

The non locking phaser is often overlooked.

And RX-8s as well. Personally I would rather put a Ford 3.7 V6 from a Mustang, Transit, or F-150. Much better engine than the GM 3.6.

whats strange is the engine when used in Cadillacs since 2004 have always required synthetic oil, but the rest of the GM products didn't until 2011. I guess the oil life algorithm in Cad's where longer because the max on the rest after a calibration update was 7500 miles.

Good idea. At least check the oil.

none sense , we have a winner here

Your a total and complete idiot

@@michaelj1232 ; )

Love it when people bring in their car for an oil change when the low oil lite comes on.

Just means less oil to dispose of!

yes

GM and Best should not be used in the same sentence..

I've had more than one of each. Bulletproof.

@ Richard skipper...without data you’re just another person with an opinion

They were great for old fashioned consumers, but they weren't acceptable in the modern world for NVH or efficiency.

Exactly. Most car owners don’t check their oil anymore. These chains will last if we keep them lubricated.

Just goes to show that good maintenance pays off. How often did you change your oil?

@@PetesGarageandperformance 5000 miles. It seemed fine with that. The oil life gauge was at 40% at that point, not telling me to change it but I changed it anyway. The newer GM vehicles are now set to 5000-6000 miles it seems so they lowered it as well. Oh, and I started adding a little oil at 140,000 miles (very little, like a half a quart between oil changes).

Don't go over 3k on this crappie car

Thanks for validating my experiences with this engine.

You maintained and so hence no issues!

We have a 2017 Acadia Limited that is a lease but follow Acadia Facebook page. Plenty of 200,000 mile Acadia's and a few 300,000 milers that have oil changed often and running fine.

5 qts between changes initially? with oil priced $5 a qt that'll bump your cost per mile to drive way up unexpectidly. I saw a mint traverse used under $5k. I said nah its wayy to clean for the price & walked.

@@williscurry6557 it was expensive at first but when i learned about the situation within 2 oil changes i had it repaired and didn't have an issue since then. I've heard of horror stories of people ignoring problems like this and end up destroying their car. I drive 100 miles a day with my kids in the car I cant have them broke down on the side of the road with me in 120 degree weather waiting for a tow truck so I have always kept my vehicles on a very strict maintenance schedule. Owners manuel was always in hand with some exceptions regarding some items done sooner than recommended. I have been super happy about the previous traverse I am now a proud owner of a 2020 traverse currently following the break in procedure it does say it's not required but it is recommended. Owners manuel is key if you dont have one get one it really helps.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Why do you drill out the PCV nipple? To remove crap, or to enlarge the hole? Seems larger hole would increase velocity and mean more oil consumption.

Did the drilling out of the nipple help with the issue. I’m thinking about doing the same thing.

@@MarkSmith-js2pu It seemingly lowered oil inside the intake manifold/throttle body. I had to replace the throttle body some time after the chain (the position sensor went bad) and it was very clean.

Alvin Stone agreed I have a 2006 cts 3.6 . Change oil and filter frequently don’t use the on board reminder change every 5000 and use gms low restriction filter and synthetic 5-30

This 3000 mile fiction is from the 1950s, with synthetic oil and a proper filter the factory recommendation is fine. The problem is you need to CHECK the oil level every 1000 miles or so and keep it up to the line (but not over it). You can't get a 'low restriction' filter that will really do anything useful, you really need a premium filter with synthetic media and it has to be rather big to do its job, these tea cup filters are a joke and not a funny one. If the engine is designed so that it takes a mechanic an hour to change the filter, buy a different car.

Henry Ostman I go about 5000 on full synthetic on my 3.8 series 3 Grand Prix on my caddy cts 3.6 3000 miles and I check my oil 2 times per week using mobile 1 synthetic 5-30 . A co worker has the same cts as me I told him about checking the oil often ,he told me he was due for his 10000 mile oil change and it was down 4 quarts . My car uses about a pint ever oil change which these engines are noted for and poor gas milage compared to the 3.8 series 3

Treat it right and it’ll run for a long time.

Thanks for watching

Wait, really? They're not electric??

There is still a traditional electric pump in the tank that pushes fuel to the high pressure pump. I was not expecting the high pressure pump to require so much torque to operate. Way more than the valves require to operate. GM should make the chains way bigger to handle all the additional torque the high pressure pump demands from them

@@tannerjohnson31 Yeah, I guess an electric motor with enough torque to drive the injector pumps may be prohibitively expensive and/or too large to implement, but I'm still surprised it's mechanical. I guess that's another thing to not like about DI. I'm honestly amazed that timing chain issues aren't *worse* now that I know how many problems there are that lead to this

You sir are a genius!

I do mine per the manual 252,000 miles on one, 284,000 on the other. No problems. 4.3 and a 3800...

@@philllsxga.7737 The 4.3 and 3.8 are NOT what he's talking about. Apples to oranges. You have 2 of the best engines GM ever made. History will show the 3.6 Cadillac V6 I'd NOT in the same class. The 3.6 is very powerful. It is not 3.8 reliable. A LOT of monkey motion going on under those valve covers, for sure......

@@milojanis4901 isn't that sad tho??? That junker replaced a bullet proof engine ?? Isn't that a shame and the averarge consumer doesn't know any better?!? That's why I bought a Silverado and not a current zr2. I bought my Silverado for the 5.3 because that 3.6 is a junker!! Here we are in 2019 and nobody can build a reliable v6?? What a shame... RU-vid CAR wizard best engine ever... How does a vehicle manufacture go backwards and charge more for the vehicle?!?! Sad. Knowledge is power...

@guy proulx don't know Toyota's My 2000 grand Prix with a 3800 has out lasted two Toyota Corollas in my family. The 3800 is very smooth and very reliable and is the only engine to when the ultra low emissions award.

This! I have had multiple cars go over 200k with 10k oil changes with M1 no problems at all. The wifes Escalade has 204k on it now and I just change the oil when the service reminder pops up (8-12k depending) and it still runs like a champ! Some engines require adding oil by design, just top up as needed.

Mb engines that take 8L of oil are going to be a lot more forgiving than ones that take only 5.2 or 5.7L

@@TheTrothKeeper The old Vortecs in the Escalades are pretty solid motors.

Dashcam Dumbasses the vortecs are bulletproof.

I have a 02 325i. When I bought it it had 274K. I went to the shop where the previous owner had it serviced for everything. They gave me a stack of paperwork for the services done there. I also inquired about the recommend miles for rhe timing chain replacement. They said they do not recommend changing the chain!?!?! I said ever??? He replied no. It is a rare sight to see a chain failure on these motors. I'm now over 284K with no issues or chain clatter. I figured if it goes 300K she's worth a rebuild.

I thought about it. But it would be a long video series since it's such a big job. I'll record the next one I do and put it up.

There is a good YT 2 parter on how to do this. I’d link to it but it should be easy to find. It’s quite in-depth

No problem. It’s very common.

Also never change it either!

@Richard Skipper That's the oil suggested for the engine and done at Chevy Dealership. I've heard its and issue with the early direct injected engined more so than the non-direct injected 3.6 engines. Also changing every 4k on conventional is fine. Going 6k+ between oil changes is fine with Sythetic. But remember some of these people are throwing sythetic in and running the engine till 6k and not checking oil very often. 2k more miles than me and they are probably a quart more below where I am at 4k. That is about 1.75 quarts low. Just cause you have sythetic doesn't mean you don't burn oil. Check your oil level at least every 1k. I'm driving a Subaru right now and it has an oil low level that will illuminate at 1 quart below full. My Saturn low oil light doesn't come on until you are 3.5 quarts below full. That's a bad design.

Some mechanic on RU-vid in Wichita says avoid the GM 3.6 all together. Is it just a question of oil changes and oil level?

@@Jack51971 it is earlier 3.6 engines like 2007 or older. I believe they fixed the port ones in 2008 and the direct ones in 2010. Like I said no issues with my port 2008. Even when run low on oil. Granted yes keeping the oil level right on and oil changes that are adequate is important.

Something tells me that when they changed over to direct injection (which I'm not a fan of on a good day, but anyway), they never actually redesigned it for DI.

@@kartboarder22g17 Ours is a 2010, and believe me, it's *bad* when it comes to oil consumption

Bizones16 try again if they actually said timing cover cause the pcv is in the valve cover two separate things

I don’t think it’s the tensioners. They seem ok. I just think it’s lack of oil to the tensioners and actuators. And lack of splash lubrication on the chain all are a combination for timing chain disaster.

Just make sure there’s oil in it and you’ll be fine. 2011 might already have the updated design gaskets.

Thanks for watching. I was just there a couple weeks ago.

It should

They suggest long intervals because the oils have gotten better. The problem is they cant predict how the owner accrues the miles. A NYC taxi cab might run (3) 8 hr shifts a day & do 7500 miles a month. So its oil is getting changed around the 30 day interval & is fine. But grandma might not do 7500 in a whole year. So tha oils getting more acids & bad stuff just from sitting.

@@williscurry6557 The Mobile 1 should be good for a year though. For those people that put on less than say 8k miles a year.

In the Good old days of engines - I am 80 and my first car was a 1929 Chevrolet Master - THey actually used a quart of oil every 5-600 miles - and you regularly checked your oil - and gas stations is too - and sold you the quart. WE changed out oil/filter every 3000 miles as well. THat was the responsibility of the OWNER of the car - specified right in the owners manual - and if you did not do it - it voided the warranty. Yes there have been duds - BUT - if you just checked your oil regularly - this one would NOT even be an issue. I had a neighbor who NEVER had her oil changed - and then tried to blame the dealer when the engine seized. You cannot move the Water Pump in a Ford Ecoboost 3.5 or 3.7(A $1500 replacement) - and the current Toyota 6 cylinder requires you remove the Skid Plate under the front of the truck to get to the oil filter - and THEN you must have a special tool to drain the filter before taking it off.

The good old days is like the 80s and 90s, maybe at best 1975-2000. GM went solid state ignition across the product line in 1975, so maybe start there. I don't want carbs and points ignition back. 12,000 mile tune up intervals. Easy work if you had lots of free time, sure, but a distraction if you didn't And if you didn't, well, them old cars would wash down the cylinders with gas every time you flood it out. Then after about 70 or 80K of that, they're burning oil past the piston rings like crazy. Go on a long trip, you stop every so often and it's the old "fill up the oil, check the gas". But anyway. Now if I could have an old car with a fresh engine and install throttle body EFI and something like an MSD E-curve distributor, that would be great.

Yeah, I remember a GM engineer told me the 3800 had a higher rate of failure than the HF family, but because it had a good reputation in the 70s and 80s (relative to other engines of that time, which were garbage by modern standards), people continued to believe the 3800 was more reliable than the HF. Humans are funny creatures and nostalgia carries more weight than science.

Anthony May thank you. I have seen people tear down the engine looking for the reason it knocks on startup. Only to find an actuator that won’t lock.

@@PetesGarageandperformance what detriment is there to it not locking when first starting up and makes that racket for a couple seconds?

Ryan Christensen yeah pretty much. It runs rough while it’s banging around for a few seconds too. Might set codes.

@@GS-kh5se great 👍, I'm past 180,000 now and still going strong

The point I was actually trying to make is “change your oil regularly and install the updated valve cover gasket”. Then you wouldn’t have to worry about oil consumption issues. The oil burning has to take a toll on the catalytic converters.

@Richard Skipper have you found it necessary to add a catch can or 2..or has the re-size of the pcv done the trick?

Gm putting quality on the side of the road

I actually thought it did because it barely ran. I did a leakage test to verify it was ok before buttoning it up. Thanks again for watching.

Soooo lucky!