Why guitarists USED TO play more in tune! (Microtonal Frets) 

Great! This is the clearest demonstration of one thing: Wouldn't you dream of a miracle instrument where your fret positions crawl from one position to another to adjust to the mode you playing at the moment? But, in a way, such instruments do exist. Surprised?

What is the name of the song at 1:12?

@@markkicksass2448 Chopin Nocturne

@@RayC234 aww yes thank you! Can’t wait to give it a shot.

Turkey 🤝 Mongolia forever!!!!!

Hmm. Im not sure calling it microtones is even appropriate. These are still relatively consonant sounds. The ratios for the intervals are simple ratios. I think its more appropriate to call a piece microtonal when the ratios for the intervals become more complex.

@@rist98 simple ratios are microtonal. The ratios for 12tone equal are irrational so they are actually very complex. Any music which tunes it's notes different from 12 equal is considered microtonal. 7:4 and 7:6 are two simple ratios that deviate significantly from 12 equal and would sound more overtly microtonal than 17:16 and 19:16 which are more complex but sound very close to their 12 equal counterparts. I take it that you mean that if the deviations are to subtle it sounds to normal to be microtonal.

@@killboybands1 So most of classical music is microtonal? Most acapella choral music is microtonal? I dont think they are. They just have a natural tuning, which most singers and most unfretted string instruments automatically gravitate towards. And ofc, historical wind instruments were tempered different from ET. But you dont call all of that microtonal music, even though it technically pretty much is. Microtonal music is where, as the name implies, the intent of the piece is to mess around with the microtones. To essentially define more pitches than 12 tones. These pitches can be based on simple ratios, which when used strictly enough in any way, will produce pitches that deviate well enough from ET. But ofc, the deviation from ET isnt also the factor which decides if its a microtonal piece. Ofc, i might be off the mark on this understanding, but this is how Ive understood the definition of microtonal music. (There was an elective at my uni, which was called microtonal music. I would have taken that class, had it covered historic temperaments and natural tunings, but it defo didnt. Prolly should have still taken that class. Maybe I will get to that some day.)

@@rist98 Before the adoption of equal temperament yes most microtonalists would consider classical music microtonal. Although noticeable differences vary depending on which temperament is being used but the differences between the sound of different keys on a harpsichord tuned to Meantone or Well temperament Vs equal temperament are cirtainly there. But I understand what you mean by it not sounding microtonal compared to the resources of novel tunings like expanded just intonation , or 22 or 31 tone equal temperament. Historical temperaments were not considered microtonal at the time of their usage because tuning hadn't been standardized in 12tet. A capella choral music is technically microtonal especially if the music is very in tune...though it may or may not be perceived as such probably because our ears naturally accept simple ratio relationships as well as slight deviations from them. So while one might not automatically aesthetically consider it microtonal it is microtonal in varying degrees and is more noticeable if your ears are used to hearing it. I can remember the first time I noticed a shift in intonation during a choir performance when the piano stopped playing. If I hadn't been spending a lot of time recently with Just intonation I wouldn't have noticed it because previously I didn't know JI existed so the only frame of experience I had was 12 tet (and some 24tet) However, even music in 31, 41, 53tet can sound less microtonal than one would expect even with small intervals in the voice leading if the Harmony is based on 5limit triads. Barbershop quartets are definitely microtonal as they use adaptive Just intonation. If you listen to performances of Barbershop champions you'll probably hear how the chords resonate in a way that would be impossible if they sang in 12tet Of course even in 12et there are technically lots of microtonal events like the slight differences in intonation amongst groups of player vibrato, bending, gliss, fx like chorus, flangers...etc (but this is not a different tuning system just expression and ornament) For vocal music that is overtly microtonal check out Toby Twinning, David Hykes, (just intonation) or Kavkasia Trio who sing traditional Georgian vocal music which employs neutral 3rds, 6ths, and 7ths. Music that uses less than 12 steps to the octave is microtonal as well such as gamelan that uses 5 and 7 note tunings (that shift in different registers). The 5 note tuning (selendro is close to 5tet. (Ive messed around will 5tet and it's pretty fun). Or Japanese Gagaku which uses a bewildering array of Just intonation pentatonic scales. Lots of classical and early music is microtonal...much of the music pre Renaissance was tuned to Pythagorean And Meantone is definitely microtonal. If you were to tune an a keyboard to meantone and started playing major and minor triads you'd notice the difference... especially if you start playing 7th chords. On a 1/4 comma Meantone tempered keyboard tuned to C (tuned in cents: C =0 C# =76 D=193.2 Eb=310 E=386 F=503.4 F#=579.5 G =696.6 G#772.6 A=889.7 Bb= 1006.8 B=1082.9. The Dom7 chords on Eb and Bb are very close to pure and there is nothing in 12Et that sounds like them (Technically they're augmented 6th chords). If you go in RU-vid snd look up "Orlando Gibbons - Pavan & Galliard ' Lord of Salisbury' (and it's correctly played in Meantone) compare it to modern 12 et versions of it the difference is quite noticeable. Even the practice of string playing has changed over time. I believe there is an example of Mozart explaining in a letter to one of his friends that he thought about strings as playing in 53 equal temperament. And the 7th harmonic was employed in the work of Handel. Tartini thought that the 7th harmonic should be used as it was more consonant but over time these practices disappeared. I think the term that is getting more often used for the type of microtonality you may be referring to would be "Xenharmonic" where the system of tuning is used for harmonic and melodic possibilities that not offered or mimicked in standard 12 tet. So for me I'd consider keyboard piece composed in 1/4 comma Meantone as microtonal.

It's also why it always seems like the G string is the first to go out of tune - the major 3rd between the G and B strings is already pretty sharp, so when the G string goes even slightly flat it's way more noticeable (as the major 3rd goes from slightly wide to downright dissonant); whereas the perfect 4ths between the other strings are really close to just intonation so there's more of a buffer before it becomes unbearable

@@konkey-dong I always wondered this! Thanks so much!

✨ we will never truly be in tune, as our instruments were made on the physical plane

@@id8989 I really don't think these people are being theological

@@id8989 you can play perfectly-in-tune sine waves on a computer if you’re so into purity 🤷‍♂️

Exactly!

I think I understood every other word (maybe). But it is still very interesting. Especially the "suite" info. THAT I can understand. I am starting to realize why music helps with math and vice versa...

And here i am cussing and losing it because youtube cant refrain from interrupting at the worst times to shove more ads up my nose for useless stuff. 😆

@@newfreenayshaun6651 this video wouldn't exist without those ads so get over it or get premium

@@NoJobRob I can guarantee now that this video primarily exists because of his Patreon and that he does other things (in addition to sponsorships). RU-vid doesn't like to pay out money from their ads to the person who made the video.

yeah can you imagin youd have be a member of some stuffy oxford Alum Society just to be able to listen to him play. amazing what the internet can do for good.

* eurobeat starts playing *

@@idriveskyline lolol

I've spoken with Tolgahan online! He's brilliant. I might getting a guitar from him soon ;)

All types of folk and primitive (etno) and tribal music consist of awkward tunings and endless "microtonal" scales because there never existed standardisation in any shape or form. As such, the music would always remain obscure trade of some local craftsmen, and would never develop into a universal language. Such music is tribal. And that is exactly what Classical music and musicians choose to leave behind in the Middle Ages, by taking a DIFFERENT route: Classical music strived towards (1) simplification, (2) standardisation of scales, (3) ease of music education, (4) more universal tuning and notation, all of which make music accessible and playable to many.

@@zvonimirtosic6171 I couldn't disagree more with your tone and sentiment. Who says one globalized scale and tuning system is a good thing? Would you prefer only one global style or music? Only one global genre of books? That seems absurd. Variety is the spice of life. Then you act as if microtonal music is trivial and primitive when it's actually incredibly sophisticated and beautiful. Ever heard a virtuoso oud or qanun player? Have you ever heard Monteverdi's Orfeo which is intended for 1/4 comma meantone? You think that is tribal and inferior? Beyond absurd.

​@@brandonacker You don't like my temperament :-o) The goals that Classical music had, do not include "playing in tune". Some goals are more important than that, which you do not see for some reason, but enjoy the benefits of. What you and many find fascinating in folk (tribal, etno or primitive) music today, is because Classical music consciously chose to leave that behind, during the Middle Ages. Classical music began accepting different goals: ease of music education, standardisation of scales, notation, theory, development of great repertoire, ease of transposing, acceptance of more universal temperaments and tunings, etc. All of it was possible because of the collective striving of the entire Classical music genre and education. The music would never become a global language like it is today if it was stuck in folk scales and awkward temperaments. There would be no rapid music development: no classical guitar, no electric guitar, no modern piano, no symphonic orchestras - nothing. But because you enjoy the fruits of all these, you may distract yourself from time to time with local tastes and folk music tunings.

@@zvonimirtosic6171 I'm sincerely trying to see your point here but so much of what you say is factually incorrect and off-putting... First you describe "classical music" as if it were the same group of people with the same agenda for the last 600 years. The Renaissance ideals and aesthetic was not the same as the Baroque, which was not the same as the Galant, which was not the same as Classical or Romantic, or Modern. You clearly haven't read musical treatises from the different time periods and lack an understanding of musical history. Furthermore, playing in tune and with temperaments was of the utmost importance in the Renaissance and Baroque period. Equal (or something close to it) became more and more convenient as composers wanted to explore more elaborate keys and modulations. They still wanted to play in tune! That is an unjustifiable and egregious statement. And lastly, you overgeneralize and seem to look down on anything that isn't Western classical music as if it were primitive in a way that comes off as frankly xenophobic and ignorant. Perhaps you should actually study the topic at hand before dismissing most of the world's music... P.S. Yes, I'll happily continue "distracting" myself with the "primitive" opera Orfeo which is a work of pure genius and has nothing to do with "standardization," and equal temperament.

Without equal temperament, it would not be possible to transpose music in all different keys. Most of the music would be "stuck" in its original key (which is the case of all etno and folk music that use primitive scales and/or awkward temperaments). To do something with it in different keys, often would sound odd or really bad. Music never really arrived to its ideals before wide acceptance of the equal temperament.

I advise people to ignore Zvodimirs statements. They are profoundly innacurate, xenophobic, and misleading.

​@@brandonacker Brandon, you are "unclassical", or, simply missing my point here. You enjoy music, enjoy your occupation and income, and you have possibilities in life because of the centuries-long attempt at STANDARDISATION that Classical music enabled. You reap the fruits of it more than I and perhaps many listeners of your channel. Why you have the audience from around the globe? Because of the STANDARDISATION that Classical music enabled. Classical music was the first ever successful human attempt at some unification, standardisation and balancing of pitches, scales, tunings, notation etc., even before science (mathematics, physics, chemistry, etc.) succeeded with science notations and SI base units. We can read and play music scores from the 13th, 16th, 19th, 20th and 21st centuries, you take them to a different continent and within a different language, and you still read and can play them! It worked. Hard work paid put. But that you can't do with folk and local music which is not based on standard scales, temperaments and notations. I don't know why this is hard to understand? I can see you are an American; Americans have a funny everyday life, they take what they like but rejected nearly all attempts at standardisation and acceptance of some SI base units (for length, weight, temperature, etc) which the rest of the world uses. So perhaps it escaped you that even American music educators accepted Classical music notations and other achievements. And this is NOT a xenophobic reply - your replies were childish so far. These are the FACTS which you may ignore, or might have forgotten, but can't historically disprove.

@@zvonimirtosic6171 Part of what you're saying is non-controversial: Music has become more standardized over time in notation and in the West, pitch. I'm fine with that. Just take out all the times you called music primitive which is anything but! You don't understand world music and how sophisticated temperaments or non-western classical styles are. Please go ahead and learn how to play a tasteful taqsim on the oud and then tell me how primitive and non-ideal it is. I'm responding harshly because your claims are offensive and absurd. You are speaking ignorantly about a subject that I'm passionate about. What type of response do you think that deserves? I won't respond again.

Not really, he shows the meantone temperament, but more "well" temperament tunings are sometimes acceptable in ALL keys, however, C major sounds nicer than F sharp major for example. It's the principle that Bach used in his well tempered clavier. Well temperements are the midway between the older meantone temperament and the modern equal temperament.

I wouldn’t say 12 tet is arbitrary, if you have a guitar that can only have one tuning, then it’s incredibly pragmatic to be able to play in any key.

@@grayson9124 By arbitrary I meant that it's one of several systems.

Thanks, Marshall! I'm so glad we got to conduct these fun experiments together!

It's not that tuners aren't perfect. Tuners *are* perfect. But the tuning they tune to isn't

@@dmytrotsvyntarnyi799 I guess it depends on one's definition of perfect. What I meant was that one can at times achieve a "more pleasing to the ear" way of tuning that doesn't agree with the tuner. I play electric guitars mostly, though I learned on acoustics (steel string), and tuning can be a real adventure on some models. The Telecaster in particular, in its classic form, is basically impossible to intonate, so one finds ways to compensate for that. But yes, of course tuners are perfect mathematically and all.

​@@claudecat @Dmytro Tsvyntarnyi It's more complicated than that. Due to physical strings not behaving like pure mathematical line segments, a guitar you attempt to tune to 12TET with a perfect tuner, is not exactly tuned that way. Due to string stretch, among other things, various frets on various strings are going to be off by varying amounts even if you've gotten the open strings tuned exactly (especially if you don't have a zero fret). The G being the thickest unwound string is often the most problematic and this may explain your problem with it more than the compromises inherent to 12TET.

i tune by ear, and end up doing this, and always get drawn to playing in those specific keys and their relative modes. and whenever i play in a different key, i have to retune my guitar for a while to get it exactly how i like it.

Great video. What would be a good guitar piece that that employs a beautiful tone but at the same times playing the most atonal harshest sounding chords ?

Thank you and welcome 🙏

Thanks! Yes, I'm aware of them and am happy guitarists are discovering temperaments other than equal! I much prefer moveable frets like on my early instruments. That way you can tune in many different temperaments on the same instrument. I've even changed temperament in the middle of a concert to better suit the next pieces. I wouldn't want to be stuck in just one temperament with fixed frets personally.

That's a little different. Their goal is still equal temperament, but to compensate for the irregularities caused by the mechanics of how strings and frets work

​@@wbajzek It's definitely not equal temperament. Just like in any non-equal temperament, in true temperament you have to offset the tunings of the open strings. So some have to be higher and some lower than equal. If the open strings are not in equal, thats that. You can see them explain the offsets and that the open strings are not in equal here www.truetemperament.com/how-to-tune/ Honestly, from what I've watched it seems that many of the people talking about it don't understand how temperaments work so that is probably where the confusion comes from.

@@brandonacker hmm, ok. thanks for the info. I was basing my comment around my memory of a podcast I heard with Kenny Hill discussing it, but I may have misremembered or maybe he misspoke. I don't really understand how it could work, though, without creating some of those crunchy chords like that Eb you demonstrated in your video. I personally think it's a cool idea and I love experimenting with microtones and listening to music in historic temperaments and just intonation, but I am also fine with some of the wonkiness built into a modern guitar.

@@brandonacker to have an unequal temperament one needs to have a home key, which isn't normally the point of a guitar.

There are a lot of people/bands who play mostly in 1 key. Example would be Tool and how they use mainly the Key of D and tune to Drop D (most of the time). So I wonder why it isn't more of a thing for guitars to be made purely for 1 key because in their case it wouldn't matter if other keys don't sound right? Also most bands use different guitars anyway for different tunings and songs in different keys. So why not have each of those guitar designed specifically with the temperament for that specific key I wonder?

There is a fake yt account trying to fish people trough your identity

@@machoprotegido5607 thanks, I've been deleting and reporting all of them but the persist on!

@@brandonacker Yup. I just got a message from that bot too.

@@brandonacker Same here. I knew it was fake as it said to 'massage' you @whatever, lol.

yes, it's mind-opening when you first discover as a guitarist why it is that tuning your strings exactly to pitch with a snark still leaves you with some chords that have a g or b that sound slightly out. I realize when tuning with the gizmo, the g I wind up tuning to is a g I would never have arrived at if I were doing things by ear.

nice! and yeah that makes sense, different culture groups have varying takes on how music works and functions still its really cool to see them each, so I hope your music endeavors go well 😊

It is a really big part of it, but it isn’t the only reason. The standard temperament of a guitar is a compromise so that the instrument will be as close to equal as possible with frets that are straight. It makes it easier to build and to play, but the intonation is slightly off of equal. The rest of this comment might be a little weird. It’s just a visualization of how luthiers help to minimize this effect. One of the best ways to visualize the compromise that’s made is to look at the bridge of a steel string. It’s a lot more dramatic than a classical, but the same principles apply to classical, just to a lesser extent. If we look at the placement of the saddle, it is slanted to make the bass strings longer. This helps those strings to be more in tune because their thicker gauge and decreased flexibility results in a larger node at the saddle, which makes the note sharper. Then, if we look at the g string,there is a little spot that is filed farther back in there but than the rest of the strings. That’s because the g string tends to be pretty sharp. When I set up classical guitars, sometimes I shift the break point of the g back a millimeter or so to help it play more in tune. Not every guitar needs it. And classical guitar strings are much closer in gauge than steel strings, so you usually don’t need to intonate the saddle beyond that, if that’s even necessary. You just get it to where it’s as good as you can get it, and understand that perfection isn’t actually possible.

Hey, Rob! Yes but I've been doing the Aguado/Piccinini approach with no nail on the thumb and short nails on the fingers. I find its the best setup for continuo theorbo since the theorbo needs some brightening in an ensemble. I'll likely go back to no nail/gut string playing as soon as concerts will allow. I learned so much from playing without nails for 6 months and started creating an enjoyable sound toward the end but it needs more work. So stay tuned! Cheers, Brandon