- To distinguish rank. - To act as a buffer to enemy missiles - To assist in keeping troops with low visibility following the right person. - To appear intimidating. The issues you bring up about grabbing the crest are the exact issues that exist when folks consider the logic of grabbing at a shield, or grabbing an opponent's spear. *thumbs up*
+Jan Lykourgos Very good points, and also about the "grabbing of the helmet", not to mention the decorations weren't even made of great metal and wielded tightly so if you did put enough force they would simply "fall off". People like Skallagrim laugh and call you a moron if you tell them otherwise.
SNIperofDARKness02 It might depend, I'm sure they didn't want them simply falling off either. The box crest would need to be secured well so that they didn't just get flung off effortlessly. Even a harsh wind would toss it off otherwise. So I do think they'd be on there tight. But, my point was that you're getting within hands' range of the opponent without a weapon in your hand(?). That's kind of suicidal, really. It is safer to strike at the range of most weapons then it is to engage an armed, armored soldier in judo. (:
Indeed only the most elite of Teutonic Knights would have (as you can see in the video), helm decorations like wings, demon like horns and evil looking horn-wings of some sort.
I'd imagine a knight is already in serious trouble if someone can grab his helmet decoration. As in already wounded in a leg so he can't stand up, or so tired he can't fight back but in either case on his knees. By that point someone wanting to finish him (or make him surrender for ransom) could probably grab anything, but grabbing the helmet decoration and making him bow his head or expose his neck would be appropriately dramatic and show your strength.
I was always told that they served 3 purposes: 1. to designate rank and act as a rally marker in formation battles (such as roman and greek formations. follow the guy with the big red plume if you get disoriented). also could be used as a quick reference for the direction the formation is facing and keeping the soldiers in their proper position. (ie i am supposed to be on the left of that plume and close to it... why am i on the right and far from it? i must be out of formation...) 2. to act as a quick identifier of friendly troops (ie in the chaos of a field battle where everyone is wearing the same types of armor and their colors are covered in mud and blood, stab the guy with the fish decoration on his head, don't stab the guys with the dragon that you are wearing.) 3. as a personal touch or a marker of who you are individually or your family/clan (such as with japanese sumurai style helms), or as religious/national symbols such as the wings on crusader gear or the snakes on egyptian headbands, etc. I believe that for the most part, helmet ornaments were typically not considered "functional" armor and that theories about arrow deflection and such are a little far fetched. it is far more likely that they were simply visual markers for any number of reasons
Hey thanks for the answer! Obviously the huge amount of decorated helmets over history proves your point, it wasn't a problem. Also the Roman officer helmet reminds me of another fact: it was considered more important for your own soldiers to recognize you in battle even though the enemy could more easily identify your officers in the melee. I think the British had a similar concept with their red coat uniforms which would be easy to spot by enemy as well as friend. An army better drilled than the enemy they face seems to have prefered this concept. and he name is short for Sonic Death Monkey, just a reference from the movie High Fidelity.(based on a great Nick Hornby book) :D
You are very welcome. Yes the psychological factor or morale and the ability to understand commands and shouts was indeed one of the most important things in battle.
Correct. It was important for the Roman soldier always being able to find his centurion in the crowd in case he gave tactical commands. The crest on the helmet would stand out and make him easy to find, other rank insignia on the uniform would not.
One thing not to forget that is more than likely to be a part of this is vanity Troughout the history mankind has been vain. We have a strong will to make ourself look "awesome" often even when it is not advantage in practial sense. That is very VERY common so i personaly think that many thhings like some of the helmet decorations actually is because the human vanity
William Shouse well i would say in first hand helmets was worn to protect the head. but if you are going to wear a helmet why not wear a helmet that makes you look cool
***** Never said it would be a disanvatage. just that it not always is an advantage. And it also depends on the persons status. a higher ranking officer would often be less likley to actually get into a fight and therefore i am sure some of then actually had armour or helmets that could be a real disadvantage in a fight but looked awesome. Just look at some of the helmets that has actually been made and used
***** Yes but with disadvantage i ment practical disadvantages in fighting. I dont think that was very common among the common soldier. just because it would give them a disadvantage. it would as said something that ostly would be seen on higher ranked officers or nobles. but then samurais did use horned helmets. and horns on helmets is a disadvantage in a fight or battle.
***** ofcourse it depends on the size. but if they are a bit large like on some helmets they would even be in the way for the one wearing the helmet. would hinder the movement he can do with his own sword I am not sure about this but i think that in japan on some samurai helmets they even used papier-mâché to make some of the ornamets. and those would easily breake if they took a hit. but as i said this i am not sure about. but i heard it or read it somewhere.. But can be totally wrong to
I think you missed the most important/ obvious point: The decoration is part of the heraldic and to recognize the person wearing it. In armor knights look the same unless they have some symbols. And same for the romans. The officers had big decorations to be visible to there soldiers.....
Christian Kunert But with the Romans, I thougt decorations were indeed used to show rank. Common soldiers had no crest, while the direction would show the rank of centurion or another high rank. But correct me if I'm wrong.
BountyFlamor Not all Teutonic knights did, a famous example is the case of Great helm of Albert von Pranckh (14th century) but as far as I know it was not common and often only leaders had them. It is argued that helmets with large protuberances would not have been worn in battle due to the impediment to their wearer.This is still a matter of debate although I myself think that it was not the case of all Teutonic. As to why a religeous based order would wear demonic looking horns...well look at the top of most medieval churches and you will find demons, gargoyles and skeletons..as these were used to "scare" devils and evil spirits..go figure ;)
BountyFlamor I wonder how the first horses were domesticated. I bet at some point a guy said to his friend: -Hey, Mike, I bet if I sneak up on that animal I could jump on its back and it will carry me around!
+Metatron I had read that horns were worn by kings as a variant of the more familiar ring shaped crowns. In The Bible, horns are a metaphor for power/strength and many things in The Bible were/are copied. One of the oddest, to me, was European royalty claiming to be Dannites, as in the Hebrew tribe of Dan. Why? Because Sampson was a Dannite. I can't recall all the details, but they did Sampson-like things such as wearing their hair long and used golden bees on their coronation robes.
+BountyFlamor Apparently long ago, people believed that the devil wasn't the only angel with horns but that most angels had horns too so they either tried to look like angels, OR probably send a message to their enemies that since they have not been worshiping God properly then the demons have come to reap their souls, thus they were the punishment of God, to be damned and killed by demons and sent to hell. So they were like "You don't go to church or you are pagan, then devils will come for you."
Oh and metatron you said that the flat topped helmet put more force on the spine then the oval one, but with the head decoration wouldn't it just make it more easy for the opponent to catch his weapon on the top of your helmet so that the force is still driven into your spine. Just look at the eagle decoration you showed, your opponent could get his sword right in between the head and the wing. Putting the full force on your head
The only case that a grabbed helmet would happen would be during grappling in armour vs armour combat where grappling is comparatively common compared to less armoured combat. Then it could give an advantage to the person grabbing by giving the opportunity to pull the helmet off or up enough for a neck stab. The lifting of the visor to stab the face is documented in treatises so I don't think its too far fetched to see the grabbing of the helmet decoration as a viable technique in a very specific case of armour vs armour combat grappling especially if it went to ground.
Good points! Also, the Thracian helmets had this weird smurf like crest because they were mimicing the caps the Thracian and Phrygians used to wear, that was made out of fox skin or other materials. And yeah it should be fairly hard to manage and grab it, specially in a proper battle senario.
Metatron I have found this wiki article for you where it shows a Thracian goddess Bendis, that is depicted with a fox skin cap for reference. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendis
I like your points in here but it made me think. While I wouldn't grab with my had or hit it with a short weapon, the "grabbing" or rather hooking and pulling him off balance with a polearm wouldn't be too far fetched and that also fixes the height problem... I think. Just a thought. I like your videos anyhow, they're nice to watch and informative
I have some information about the Thracian helmet, the decoration on the top of the helmet wasn't just a decoration, the inside of the top of a Thracian helmet is an open space,its empty inside and the hoplites (actually peltasts were using these helmets more often) were putting their hair inside the top of the helmet, the main reason the soldiers asked for this( which is kinda funny) was because their hair was getting messy in the helmet, so with that decoration they could fix their hair in this conical empty space without messing them. also the practical thing is that when they had the most of their hair inside this tops, the helmets were actually more comfortable to wear. hope I gave you some helpful information about the Thracian helmet ^_^
pleasure to help ^^ but really now isnt it a bit funny to imagine hoplites saying "for Zeus sake! my hair ruined by this freaky helmet! cant you change it with something that doesnt ruin my style please?"
Just picking at details here, I think the domed shape of the top of later great helms is called 'sugar loaf' as opposed to 'sugar leaf'. You'll see on most helmets, especially later medieval ones that there is a small angular crest running down the top of the helmet which strengthens the helmet and allows vertical blows to glance off the helmet more easily. Great video though.
I think you are looking at the grappling point in a very narrow scope. If you are fighting with a sword and shield and have no armor then you wouldn't want to grapple anything. But war about if you are wearing good armor (mail and brigandine lets say) if you wanted you could take a cut to the side with nothing but a little discomfort. If you were to get a hand full of your opponent's helmet decoration you could pull his head back and make use of any weapon you wanted and there would be nothing they could do.
Though it isn't a medieval helmet, you might be interested in taking a look at the german pickelhaube. They were rather cheap in production and all the decoration had a use in defence. The point on the top was for deflecting blows, the massive ornamentation on the front was for deflecting bullets, while the rest of the helmet was leather or felt( or paper in late world war 1).
Its the same concept with animals. They will flash different colors, stand up tall to look bigger than they are, or even have certain markings and colors that would intimidate or trick an aggressor. Distinguishing friend from foe is always a good thing too!
I have often thought about this issue. I was taught to use a Katana through Aikido (Kenjutsu). Anything on top of the helmet would just get in the way of me using a blade. I do not understand crusader helmets either. A flat top takes the impact from direct downwards blows, just like you explained but why did it last 100 years?
It is also important to note that the Ancient Celtic and Iberian tribes were known to wear helmets with horns on top and various decorations as well. It would seem that there was either some strategic use for it or simply the benefits of intimidation, etc. outweighed any negatives in the minds of many ancient generals and warrior elites.
I wish I could remember the primary source this was in, but I once read about a tournament where the crests were made of papier-mache and filled with candy. The point of this particular contest was to head-hunt your opponent, and when you broke your opponents crest, children would run out and get the candy.
Not to forget the Mounted option would be even more of a stretch to be able to grab onto the helmet. Sure I could see an option of getting a chance to grab onto the helmet while on foot after deflecting the opponents sword and perhaps shortly lock his shield with yours, might give a chance, but not a great one.(no experience fighting with weapons so can't say for sure)
Well I heard they were also used mostly during tournaments especially the ones that appear at 5:39 (the right one) they were used to distinguish the knight in addition to the Heraldic coat of arms. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
I like your videos, I'm not armour historian or anything but I was wondering, (just my opinion may not be so) if the decorations was used because of the battles that were fought; to better recognize who is on your side and the enemy, and if lets say in roman cohorts who the leading officers are to better follow orders? or that knights would be very difficult to tell apart since they are just wearing the same thing? just some thought, your reasons seam reasonable as well
[QUESTION] Were historical warriors muscular like portrayed in films? - of course I'm guessing much like almost all men until at least the mid 80s outside of 'professional wrestling' weren't muscular and that historical images don't seem to show such things that I would guess that it's pure fiction. I would rather enjoy hearing from someone who has spent a lot more time and expertise in this area. And finally, your channel took a little while to grow on me, probably because the first video I saw was the orc armor lol, and now having experienced the depth, experience and knowledge you bring, I enjoy it very much. Great stuff.
The average man in the US military now is 'different' to the average man in say the US military 20 years ago. The average man in most military elsewhere isn't particularly muscular. That is today there's seemingly a prevalence of muscle building within the military, yet I'm pretty sure that it's a recent idea, perhaps promoted by movies. Certainly there's only wiry lean guys in the special forces people in WW2 and I would has at a guess has always been the case. Speed and endurance being the more important attribute over strength. It was a curiosity that I don't know much about and can't really find a lot of data on and was thinking a proper scholar might have a better idea.
If struck by a melee weapon, would these crests usually break off safely, dislodge your helmet, or merely rattle your braincase much like any other blow?
There is another disadvantaged in having a flat top, I think the helmet is easier to damage when it has sharp edges and vertical sword/axe strikes would pretty much hit a flat top on the edge when coming from above. An easy example is what happens if you strike at a table with a knife with the same force, if you hit a surface you scratch it, if you hit the edge the force is so concentrated into that point that you actually hack into it. Same with a helmet, if you hit a edge you basically can cut through it whilst that same hit on a flat or rounded shape wouldn´t be able to. And even though a strike may not cut trough to actually do serious damage underneath the damage is a structural weak-point and would have to be repaired afterwards...also you don´t necessarily want to have swords stuck to your helmet in battle, or have the enemy take your helmet off when he tries to free stuck weapons^^ :p)
The Thracians had one devastating weapon called rhomphaia, that was a mix between a long sword and a polearm, which was often curved and allowed for blows on the head over the shield. It was so efficient against the Romans that they had to reinforce their helmets in order to deal with it. Why The Roman helmet, prior to the encounter with the Thracians, and the Corinthian helmet were flat on the top, because the swords were used mostly for stabbing and not for cutting or slashing. The Thracian helmet on the other hand was designed like this to minimize the effect of head blows from the rhomphaia. I would also thing that its very top part could have been used for direct blows to the face in a very close combat. So yes, while the top part was decorated with ornaments by the Thracians, as it can be seen on so many of their helmets, it definitely had a functionality attached to it rather than being there just for aesthetics.
Cool wooden sword! Could you make a video on the use of wooden swords in the middle ages? Did you make it yourself? Which wood was it made from and how heavy is it?
The helmet you showed at the 4 minute mark had a weird "nose". What was the purpose of that? Was that a Jousting helmet to deflect the lance if it hit the face? Or was it similar to the long nosed Doctor's mask where they would stuff smelly stuff in there because of the stench of battle or something?
+Stoneysilence It was for deflecting lances and arrows. I don't thing they would stuff anything in it, because that would make breathing more difficult.
Also, wearing the exact same helmet type made identifying on the battlefield much easier, in the case of lines turning into mosh-pits. Like Japanese did with sashimono.
I noticed that some ancient helmets and some medieval Eastern European and Middle Eastern helmets have rings on top in stead of the usual mohawk-like crest. How would these rings have functioned? They can't be plume holders, the rings are often so big that feathers would have just fallen out.
A couple things I noticed Metatron didn't consider were first, that the person grabbing the decoration was probably close enough to do so in the first place was because they knocked their opponent's weapon outta the way first; and second, that if they grabbed the decoration, the grabber wouldn't simply try to hold them by it for a weapon strike, but instead YANK on it to SNAP their neck. I WILL grant him that knights in the late middle ages wore helmets decorated in such ways in TOURNAMENTS, in which combat had a strict rule set applied to it prohibiting such tactics and thus making it RELATIVELY safe to wear them there, but REAL battle WASN'T regulated by ANY means; so enemies ARE gonna do the grab, yank and snap on ANYONE stupid enough to wear such helmet decorations into such battle.
I'm pretty sure some decorations would restrict certain movements. I experimented with just a cardboard helmet and have not tried an actual helmet with such decorations. I'm curious what other people would have to share about this
Metatron, love your channel. I fight in a historical combat group (adrian empire) and was wondering if you could perhaps take a look at my armor and give me any pointers/tips to make it more historically accurate, to improve the motion, or improve its sitting. I'm a fairly decent metalworker and some of it was made by me, while some was inherited from my knight when I was but a squire. I know you're busy, so it's totally ok if you're too busy to help, but if you could take a look that would be amazing. La Ringrazio- Brandyn
I am wondering how many of these decorations might also have been applied works (as apposed to an actual part of the helmet) that might be prone to snapping off if grabbed. It could make an assailant look very foolish in the moments before his death. Also, wasn't it the case that some roman helmets had the plumes turned sideways to distinguish a person with battlefield authority from a normal soldier?
Metatron Which points out another purpose of helmet decoration: On a battlefield they make it a lot easier to find and identify the guy you're supposed to follow
Saw this game called war of the roses that had some rather ridiculous looking helmet ornamentation. Turned out it is historical. And I guess some samurai had some pretty epic head accessories as well.
What about weapons catching on to those crests? It doesn´t really matter if it is only feathers and horse hair but some of these other things look pretty massive and the lever is enormous if you hit it with, say, a halberd.
Good reasons. From combat perspective, you want to be aware of your superior and his guidance in the heat of the battle. Watching 1000 warriors around you looking similar, would be hard to find a Centurion, or a Tribune fighting. Think about you follow your cohort standard but at the same time, your centurion standard (his helm crest)
Also i'd like to point out that those knights who wore such decorated helmets, were usually fighting on horseback, which would put them far away from any grab attempts.
I would add that the decorations, especially in the Middle Ages, would be designed to look like the wearer's heraldic animal. Since hostage taking and trading was a big part of warfare, this would aid in keeping them from being killed with the rest of their troops.
The better question is: Why not? The answer is pretty obvious if you think about it. It is not a risk of getting grabbed, but just hit with an enemy's weapon. It will blind the soilder while readjusting the helmet, could cause neak damage, and is really hard to prevent getting hit (without removing it).
if the design on the top was an open loop like the art in the picture you showed at 4:50, then using a spear or halberd you could thread it through the loop and possibly use your pole arm as a lever to snap the guys neck
I've read, and heard, speculation that medieval knights/soldiers would have worn short hair to avoid having it grabbed during combat. Do you think that makes sense, or would hair-grabbing suffer from the same problems as helmet grabbing? (As I think of it now, too, I imagine that long hair could be tied up inside the helm for combat).
Long hair was in fashion in the later medieval period among knights: the 14th and 15th centuries, but they probably didn't fight bare-headed not like in the movies...
im on my moms acount. this might be a stupid question but wouldnt a decoration make you a target either because of statius or color like yellow or red? sorry if its stupid
If you could mismatch armor and we're able to create it in any grade of metal. which armor pieces would you choose if you were dropped into a battle in bc times as an infantry unit. your armor can be of any era.
You talk about an 1v1 fight but what if you are in a battle? There are probably enemies who can hook your helmet decoration with poleaxes and then there are their comrades to finish you off. Is that so unlikely?
The only instance I can think of that this would be used up is if the opponent was stunned, then it might make him easier to kill. Even that might leave you vulnerable to any other enemy who decides to take you out.
But if a sword or weapon hits up on it. It is harder and higher to block, yet a hit to it can rattle a head still and move the helmet around on the head to obscure vision. I think a big part of the markings would be for recognizably on the field.
It seems very likely that decorations on the helmets were also used by generals to easily be able to see how many troops they still had standing (as well as mark the generals themselves). The roman helmet is a great example of high visibility that a general or battle commander could easily see the amount of red helms in the air and know how many standing troops they had left on a particular portion of the battlefield. just a guess though :)
Hello Metatron! Would you do a video about helmets/armours/weapons in The Lord of the Rings movie? :) I think it would be a very interesting and long topic :)With respect: Istvan
maybe the decorations on medieval helmets helped the knights identify each other during combat. Like, hey there's Otto, he's got the horns and there's Ullrich with the wings, oh no, he's getting stabbed!
what if a sword (or any other weapon) would hit a horn on the teutonic helmet? wouldn't that be a big risk of snaping your neck or something like that?
great heln is suspended and has 2 layers of padding. 1 on your helm, 2 on your great helm. so beleave me, flat top isnt very suicidal for your spine. these helmets were mostly used by cavalery though so i dont see big problem
Hello Metatron. Did you see the film "The Kingdom of Heaven"? If so what is your opinion on it in terms of historical accuracy when it comes to the costumes used and also the way European culture is portrayed in relation to islamic culture? I know this is two questions, sorry. Cheers, Mike.
not really, however we need to consider one more fact, that for the time the great helm was used it was normally worn over a cervelliere so another smaller helmet and ofter since it would easily overheat they would keep it untill the charge and than remove it and fight with just the smaller ovally shaped helmet underneeth. Eventually they decided to make the great helm ovally shaped again, untill the idea of wearing was abandoned in favour of the closed helmets of the late middleages like the Maximilian helmet
+nixland Usually horse hair. No crests have survived in the ground, obviously, but its generally agreed that the crests were made of wood and glued on top of the Corinthian (or Chalcidian/Attic, Thracian, Pylos, Thraco-Macedonian...) helmet
+nixland They had glues and resins at the time derived from fish skin (I think) that was used to make composite bows. It's not a big stretch to think they might apply this to helmet decoration as well.
I would say that on a battlefield an enemy soldier could jump the knight from behind and yank on the helmet. But then again if that were the case, he could just yank a normal helmet off of the knight's head, too.
Another thing I would like to see adressed: Wouldn't all that decoration add a lot of weight to the helmet? I make masks myself, and even with non-metal materials it's always a challenge to add as much as possible to the mask without it becoming uncomfortably heavy. A lot of weight on top of the head puts pressure on the wearer's spine. Mind you, I'm not saying you are wrong, because obviously lots of historical examples do exist of lavish helmet decorations.
I still wonder why people think that Teutonic Knights had horns on their Helmet. I think it might be because they get displayed like that in that old russian movie, or in video games. However the only "horned" Helmet was that of the Grandmaster of the Order which had the black and yellow "wings" and that wasn't worn in battle and was more for ceremonial events.
Metatron, in the game for honor the helmets for the characters have a variety of decoration options I'm sure u have seen them just wandering these decorations would they work realistically and where they somewhat historical? I would be interested in knowing obviously you are busy and if u don't find this interesting that's fine anyways thanks.👍
The only thing I can imagine being a serious problem for helmet-mounted decorations are long polearms with a hooking apparatus, like a billhook or a halberd, or even a long handled bearded axe.
You Forgot it was another weapon. Most of the crests were reinforced and could be used in a headbutt. Don't forget in battle you can be disarmed(sometimes literally Pun intended) or knocked to the ground a standing head butt wit a reinforced crest could do impact damage equivalent to a mace.
weren't they used to recognize your commander-officer in the battle? it seems logical to see the leaders who are supposed to give you orders and/or keep the ranks in order.
l kind like to look at the Corinthian plume reverse crest as what could have been used as a head rest for the end of a javelin since the guy in front of you had it raised up for so long during battle and he couldn't slam it down on your head as it would slide off the plume!
the actual reason was simply that Vikings didn't do that. There were however other cultures which did. There is no reason why a Germanic warrior would put horns on his helmet: horned animals to do not play a big part in Germanic mythology. What you DO see Germanic warriors putting on their helmets are wings: this makes sense since birds of various kinds, and dragons, play a big part in their mythology. The reason why Vikings in pop culture can be seen wearing horned helmets, is because of a performance of Wagner's Ring Cycle. The helmets used were simply the ones that the theatre already had from an unrelated production. The rest of the costuming was equally inaccurate, but the helmets became cemented in the popular imagination as symbolizing Vikings and all things Germanic.
I would be a bit more interested in the flat top designs. Yes, they went out of fashion but sticking around 100 years is not a failure either, most types of armor came and went in such a time frame. There seems to be a time frame from the High Middle Ages to those Great Helmet designs where flat tops at least seem more common so apparently they thought it had some advantage. Maybe the edge or rim of the top was sturdier to an incoming blow and they weren't so worried about something hitting straight on the top but more about something hitting the rim at an angle and earlier cone shaped helmets not holding up to that? Lateron they worked out the quality issues and once again preferred the better glancing quality vs. the reinforced rim. Just a guess.
Somewhat related: German tanks in ww2 initially often had straight turrets but more and more skewed turret surfaces became popular for additional deflection. For some reason every time a new thing is developed they forget about things they made right for years. I assume it was similar with the great helmet. They developed the whole breathing hole idea, the helmet had to be large because of chainmail coifs and it was probably the first "full" helmet since a long time. So they kinda went with a barrel as a basic form. While we nowadays see earlier helmets and think "why did they stop doing that" they likely just build it from scratch and optimized it after some of the smarter knights made the connection again.
