I found their attempt to make this a feminist conflict ridiculous. One woman managing to sit on the Iron Throne wouldn't do anything for all the rest of the women in Westeros.
@@heartlesslove9084- True but that's not even the point. And really you can't expect noble men or women accepting low borns to rule over them. That's really unrealistic. The point is that ROYAL women are excluded from holding power and in this case this leads to a series of dramatic events. Plus, as so often in AWOIAF women going for or holding power is depicted as sheer devastation. I get the feeling that women in Planetos seem to be "too emotional" to reign.
That's quite reductive to say one woman in power won't do anything for the women in Westeros, obviously Rhaenyra as queen doesn't automatically make Westeros any less of a misogynist society but I like to think that Alysanne, queen to the Old King Jahaerys definitely did more for women than the hundreds of Westerosi lords that ruled the kingdoms before her
@@PeterEhik Your example actually proves my point. The lives of women improved through policy, not because of what genitals were pressed against the Iron Throne. Those policies were implemented by King Jahaerys, a man. Yes, he implemented them because he loved his wife and she cared about the conditions of women, but again, it's her care about the welfare of women that led to the improvement of their lives, not her gender. Rhaenyra on the other hand has never shown any concern about women and the issues they face. She doesn't even have any policies or goals. Her only priorities seem to be food, sex and power. And her getting power in no way helps the women of Westeros any more than her getting laid helps them.
@@MissKashira I guess the way I see it, Rhaenyra never really had power for long enough, I don't wanna spoil the story but people who haven't read it but let's just say she was never in a situation where she had time and the full backing of all the major powers in Westeros to make any changes. The Old King and Queen had 50 years of mostly peaceful reign, it meant that they could actually get to make a substantial difference in the lives of their common folk and Alysanne got to travel to so many parts of the country because it was a peaceful time. It's really hard to come up with policies when you're busy fighting a brutal war for succession..just saying.
People are really mad at Alicent supporting her child over Rhaenyra? 😅😅😅. That super ridiculous. It obvious from jump that both Alicent and Rhaenyra are both pawns in a rigged game, produce men. The lack of sympathy and understanding of Alicent and her position, is one of the many things that grind my gears about the fandom. It mostly stems from Rhaenyra being presented as the "cool girl, girlboss" type who has a badass dragon. While Alicent is presented has the "hater or pick me girl" who smashed the protagonist's dad. Alicent and Rhaenyra are both victims in a rigged game
Aegon raped a servant and it was suggested that he raped Helaena. Alicent basically disowned Aegon for raping the servant in a previous episode. Of course people are mad that she did a 180 and put a rapist on the throne.
@shannonrichardson5129 She was upset, as a mother, that her son was doing such a thing. However, Aegon is still the rightful Heir, and regardless of his antics, he is still her son and she loves him (even if it's hard to handle the guy). It's not a complete 180, its just that after Viserys dies, everything else kinda gets put to the wayside cause this is a big moment.
@@shannonrichardson5129I got news for you, all of the men are bad. Daemon killed his first wife brutally, groomed Rhaenyra and undoubtedly did way worse. Viserys had his first wife cut open for a possible son, only for the boy to die a few hours later with her. Then he marries Alicent and proceeds to rape her, repeatedly. He neglected his own children in favor of Rhaenyra and then proceeded to do nothing when his own son was maimed. Point is, no men in HOTD are good, no one is saying what Aegon did to Dyana was right or okay but let's not act like there are any good guys to put on the throne. And Rhaenyra isn't a good option either, a glaringly obvious reason being the fact that she has 3 bastards.
@@thalmoragent9344 he was never the rightful heir, he was a usurper, rhaenyra was the chosen and anointed heir of her father, he never named aegon as his heir.
You know who the most feminist queen Westeros ever saw was? Good Queen Alysanne Targaryen. Queen Alysanne's laws established rights for noble women to stop them from being thrown out by their husbands previous children after his death, and secured rights of children as well. However the most important law, I'd say was the abolishment of the 'right of the first night,' preventing the assault of thousands and thousands of women on their wedding night, and all that would come after. Along with providing actual infrastructure to kings landing and going on many royal progresses and holding women's councils wherever she went. She wasn't called the Good Queen for nothing
She can afford to be a feminist because of her family name And she banning the right of first night just made the nobles hide their sexual antics better
I mean… I’m a big fan of Good Queen Alyssanne and how she used her influence from the betterment of women generally but let’s also acknowledge that she did that while being complicit in the maligning of her older sister, Rhaena, who had a better claim to the throne than Jaeherys. The idea that Westerosi law said a woman could not inherit the throne is patently false because when Jaeherys became King, Westeros was still a young state. Prior, there were seven (or more) warring kingdoms with a bunch of different laws on inheritance rights. Daughters do, however, inherit before younger brothers so in some cases a woman had a better inheritance claim than a man. The male-centric approach to inheritance was fermented by Jaeherys who knew Rhaena had a better claim than his and passed over everyone of his daughters to make sure Rhaena’s claim wasn’t seen as more legitimate. Alysanne was complicit in this so while she did many feminist things, we have to acknowledge her blindspots.
I honestly feel that a lot of the discourse around f&b/hotd would be improved if people actually read about the real life history that inspired it (and in some cases are an almost 1:1 copy, like the dance of the dragons is set up in a very similar way to the first english civil war/the anarchy). the depiction of alicent and rhaenyra in f&b is akin to chronicles of irl conflicts - procopius' secret history, the gesta stephani, gregory of tours' history of the franks - which are deeply misogynistic and push a lot of the blame for conflicts onto women. it's so weird to see people take f&b at face value and not understand the ways both alicent and rhaenyra were trapped and scapegoated by the patriarchal society of westeros! also idk if you've gotten into the irl events that inspired this era of targaryen history, but I'd be really interested in seeing your take! bc imo a lot of the issues with the construction of the narrative of the dance is that grrm based it heavily on the anarchy but changed just enough details that the characters' actions make a lot less sense than their real life counterparts 😅
Ya know, if Viserys had just not married Alicent and had more legitimate kids with her this whole war could have been avoided. I mean, he already acts like Rhaenyra is his only legitimate child and he could have still had illegitimate kids if he wanted to, but at least then everyone would have backed up Rhaenyra and not contested her ascension to the Iron Throne.
@@myfairytalelife3 what is she died in child birth just like her mom. don’t get me wrong Viserys should’ve have thought more about the problems a son could bring him and her But on the other hand he can’t take the risk of having No heirs But Daemon either.
@@munken7673 If Rhaenyra died during childbirth then he would still be alive right? So he could raise the kid until he died. Also, even if Rhaenyra didn't die before Viserys did and Viserys later died with only Rhaenyra as heir people would still contest her right to the throne because of primogeniture, which means that people would argue that Daemon was the rightful heir since he's male. There'd also be random people who'd rise up to fight for the throne. It's just Rhaenyra would have more people backing her since Viserys was her father and he'd have no other legitimate heirs. There's also the possibility that he could have had more illegitimate children and if Rhaenyra died at any point before Viserys died he could legitimise the oldest illegitimate child. I mean, let's say Viserys and Alicent had still shacked up, although I doubt Otto would have let Alicent and Viserys get together if they weren't married first, and she'd gotten pregnant with Aegon, Viserys could have then named Aegon his heir if Rhaenyra died before him.
@@myfairytalelife3 yes he could marry again only if Rhaenyra died befor him But he might not have time because who knows if he dies in the meantime himself and yes Viserys is a soft fool that is pretty much his flaw But when you Think about Viserys’s uncle and father died before his Grandfather He Can also die suddenly just like his own father and his uncle did he had to make extras here and now and there is also the threat from the north Aegon’s prophecy he don’t know when the White walkers attacks But he knows they will there needs to be many dragons to face Them that is also Why Rhaenyra tried to find a less Bloody Way to deal with the Greens because they have to be ready for the Long night but yes Viserys is a fool and probebly one of the worst westori Kings and Sorry for the bad english not my first language.
that's what i got from watching the series, just two very powerful puppets propped up by all the men to be the scapegoats for all the turmoil that the succession of the throne will create. imo, it might've started with rhaenyra's grandfather but with vyseris, it was clear that daemon was a bit too trigger happy to be a level-headed king so he stuck his daughter in the chair as a temporary placeholder. he might love her genuinely, but that's the cruelest thing a father could do to his own daughter. it put her on the spot and set her up for a lifetime of grief and struggle all because he couldn't stand the heat for a few years after his wife and son died. rhaenyra was nothing more than a glorified bandaid in that aspect and no less of a tool than alicent. the difference was that rhaenyra had enough true power at her disposal to actually fight for her life. before being named heir, she was at most a cheerleader like all the other targaryen women, but from the day her father gave her that title, it was survival mode. she became a player and she had to play hard because the odds are stacked against her. her claim to the throne was like a jenga tower, always threatening to fall at every moment and people picking at the bricks at every chance. i'd say her only true ally was Laenor Velaryon. I was so glad to see that he wasn't killed. Either it was Daemon's idea or Rhaenyra's to spare his life, I don't really care. I guess that's the only breath of fresh air this series gave me. The game really isn't for the faint of heart and most of it's players are just forced to play for survival and for the survival of the people they care about. They just eventually accept that it's their duty or fate and try to find meaning in playing. Only a few of the players actually enjoy it and are driven by personal interest.
Book or tv series, the fake girl boss thing is everywhere in AWOIAF and it never convinced me. While the series screams "female empowerment!" at the top of its lungs, the known history of Planetos is littered with queen's that could have been but never were. Except for a short while maybe. Nymeria is one of the few exceptions.
Why do Corlys and Rhaenys support the Blacks, especially since they think Rhaenyra and Daemon had their son killed so they could marry? Also, Rhaenys blames Leana's death on Daemon because he refused to return with his family to Westeros where Rhaenys feels Leana could have gotten better care during her pregnancy.
@@LeeBeeDeeTree51 i know it dosen’t really count But are a deleted scene Where he hugs Them and another one i Think Where one of Them tells Rhaenys that they are already part of the Black vs green conflict (those two scenes should’ve honestly been keep in) But yea Rheana and Baela really needed some basic screen time that was unfortunately Cut out for some reason
@@saymyname2417 the actual absurd is that Alicent stared hated Rhaenyra for some bs reason. The actual absurd is Alicent supporting her idiotic son over Rhaenyra. Why is that absurd? Because that would obviously start a war
@@JohnCena-um5uo- Why can't you guys start using your brains and stop applying 21st century sensitivities to history or historic fiction?! NO woman in that position would have ever favoured someone else over her own son. It is already in her instinct but that's just one point. She would have stopped at NOTHING and would have stomped over countless corpses to put him on the throne instead of allowing someone else to take it. Plus, she would have married her daughter off as good as possible for the same reason Otto did. A war wouldn't have been reason enough to stop such ambition, whether it be that of a man or a woman. This has happened MANY times everywhere and still would had the world not grown that small. Can't your shallow brain comprehend that in such a situation people go for it because if they didn't they'd end up powerless, sidelined or dead? 😩 Your lack of comprehension is so frustrating! Oh and, the story was written so it ended in a massive conflict. I'm not even talking about the lost eye which alone ended any hope of a happy end. But I am talking about the author's intention.
@@JohnCena-um5uo it’s absurd because Alicent believes will kill her sons which she obviously doesn’t want. Considering the fact that Rhaenyra doesn’t care about her siblings at all and the fact that Aegon has a possible claim to the throne which will make him poltically important for anyone who is interested in power.
Alicent and Rhaenyra inherited the circumstances and rivalry created by Otto and Daemon. Otto in his mistrust of Daemon, pushed for Rhaenyra to be named heir after baby Baelon died. Daemon being who he is, fell in and out of Viserys' good graces, and (basically groomed) married Rhaenyra anyway. Otto was always power-seeking, pushing Alicent onto Viserys and Aegon to be heir, but I think the prospect of Daemon being the real power behind Rhaenyra on the Iron Throne just made Aegon being king a necessity because there was no way in Otto's mind that Daemon could hold that much power. I think HOTD season 1 does an ok job in showing how Alicent and Rhaenyra were basically reacting to the situation already created around them, but by the end showed how they would become real players in the game, which was especially explicit with the shifting dynamic between Alicent and Otto at the end.
Rhaenyra had years to advocate for her legimacy as heir to the throne, since Deamon brought her to see what people/subjects thought of her to when Viserys died. the fact that nobody took action in trying to change the system, (not only Rhaenyra, but Viserys and his council too) this tells us that the rulers of westeros are either so detached to their people that they assume the subject will accept anything if commanded upon. or nobody actually believed Rhaenyra would have been the heir and they expected her to step down
considering the last time, less than a generation earlier a woman was first in line to the throne by male preference primogenitor (not even total primogenitor) that woman, who is still alive, did in fact step down, I don't blame them for assuming that.
@@munken7673 You should definitely read Fire and Blood volume 1 just for the dance chapters alone. (and gay female characters who are sadly ignored on the show)
Trying to paint Rhaenyra as a feminist queen and Alicent as the devil incarnate is the worst [art of the HoTD fandom. Somehow the majority of the fandom (at least the ones that are team black) completely ignore that Alicent was manipulated from the age of ~15 to be weary of her best friend because she may someday kill her children. They also ignore all the fucked up stuff Rhaenyra has done/wanted to do like have Aemond tortured when her sons' legitimacy was being questioned.
After Alicent suggested that her son’s eye be put out? 👀 Like Rhaenyra isn’t perfect but she was reckless and selfish at best. Alicent was desperate and mean-spirited to Rhaenyra which is why people dislike her, not her support for Aegon II.
@@GlenDivoNo actually that the reason why alicent wanted revenge. Rhaenyra was the one who asked for aemond to be tortured first even though the child lost his eye like less than a hour ago
"George RR Martin is clearly a huge fan of playing with perspective," may just be understatement of the year LOL. But I absolutely do agree with your points regarding Alicent. I do wonder how much of the audience disregarding her own plight and calling her misogynistic is due to how the show is marketed across social media with team black and team green hashtags as if it were a sporting competition to drive up engagement or something. It seems that ever since the Twilight films saw such insane viral marketing success with their team jacob and team edward hashtags, consumers are encouraged to repeat this practice over and over for any foreshadowed conflict in popular media. However, as soon as someone approaches human conflict as a sporting event it tends to lose all nuance as the conflict itself get reduced in the public discourse of it. Alicent's position in this conflict is sympathetic and complicated. Yet many viewers just simply see Alicent as an obstacle for Rhaenyra and fail to even try to understand Alicent's perspective. I wonder if the show could have done anything different in its portrayal of these characters to have prevented this sentiment or not.
The show writers treated it as a sporting event where everyone is supposed to cheer for Rhaenyra and boo for Aegon and there's no nuance at all. Alicent is pretty much on team black herself and her perspective is that she cares about Rhaenyra more than she cares about her own family.
I actually laughed out loud when I read F&B and it said that Alicent and Rhaenyra's factions got their names because of the dresses that they wore to a regular old tourney where it was expected for people to represent their houses. The narration makes it seem like it was some sort of call to war, when it was more than likely just them wearing what was expected of them as members of House Targaryen and House Hightower.
@@MayumiSaegusaShiba Imagine green just being Alicent's favorite color so she wears it all the time, but historians are like "She was signaling war!!!!"
@@ayanna6327 could be possible given the way the book was written 😭 grrm did always say to be skeptical of details....like all the mushroom stuff is genuinely ridiculous (and have u noticed the most heinous stuff ascribed to alicent was from mushroom...who wasn't even in king's landing or anywhere near the green council lmfao)
@@MayumiSaegusaShibasame with aegon (with him r@ping little kids it was from mushrooms acc) but they ran with it in the show and idk if GRMM has problem with it
This kinda touches a quite delicate issue in A Game of Thrones: Cat doesn't hate Jon because he's a bustard, but because he can take her claim to power, which is being the mother of the Lord of Winterfel. The whole situation boils down to: if Jon is Lord, she is just the widow of the former Lord, not the Lady-mother.
There's an out-of-universe factor in all this. The parts of Fire & Blood that cover the Dance of the Dragons were edited from GRRM's notes for an anthology called "Dangerous Women." It was titled "The Princess and the Queen." There was an incentive to make Alicent and Rhaenyra look like the prime players, more so than GRRM originally intended them to be, just so this part of his story would fit in a hole of a certain shape.
Thank you, that's a great analysis. While there is fair criticism to be made about the show, I never understood the point about the show robbing those two characters of their agency (especially for Alicent - she literally gains agency she never had before in episode 9) and them being the embodiment of female empowerment. They aren't. I fear the audience desperately wants Alicent and Rhaenyra to be representatives of "girl power, yaaas they can do what they want", when it was never the point of the show.
Exactly, like on a superficial level I get the complaint because F&B did characterize it as if Alicent and Rhaenyra were the leaders, but it's extremely easy to see the massive gaps in plausibility there, and even if it were true, the notion that one or two women could overcome systemic oppression isn't quite the iconic Spice Girls girl power moment that some would like it to be.
I wonder how much of the "yas kween, girl power" Rhaenyra support is actually because of HOTD and the way it is framed, and not just leftover love and comparisons to Daenerys in GoT
@@partypants8260YES!!!!! A lot of Rhaenyra fanfare comes from residual love from Daenery's character. Instead of looking at Rhaenyra as her own character.
Alicent had no agency at all in episode 9, she just reluctantly did what her husband told her to do. The only thing she stood up to her father about was protecting Rhaenyra, the only thing she cares about in the world is Rhaenyra.
HotD has the obligation to show one "reality" behind the text of Fire and Blood where two women tries to survive in a position of power in a world held by men. But (Spoiler) the two fail in this at the end. Because the dominant history is written by the winners, males use the example of Alicent and Rhaenyra to pretend that civil war is what happen when women rules so they can restrain more their possibility to access power (an argument used sometimes after the Dance). That's the point of view of the book. In a sense, HotD is the history seen by the point of view of the loosers and i think this is brilliant writting and also an excellent crossmedia.
People who claim Alicent is a misogynist for supporting Aegon over Rhaenyra clearly are not parents. Because there is no way, any mother would pick a stepdaughter over own son, that’s just plain common sense. These are the same people who think that Sansa and Arya should have supported Daenerys claim to the Iron Throne instead of Jon simply because “the sisterhood” while completely ignoring that fact that Jon was the brother they have known their whole lives while Dany was just a stranger who showed up at their door. At the end of the day, it’s the same circular logic of people who don’t seem to understand that family ties are binding than gendered politics.
It is such a relevant question that I think is way too rarely asked though! GRRM lives for unreliable narration so the idea that F&B is somehow reliable because it's a "history" book is an analytical oversight that I've never understood.
@@HillsAliveYTthere was an old reader in my granny’s house once. It was interesting, but if you flipped through it, you’d get that weird moment where they’d talk about the Red River Rebellion. They treated the great Louis Riel like he was a criminal, and said the most awful things about him. I’ve been a fan of his since MY history class, so it was SO WEIRD. History and historical narratives change over time. People need to figure that out. Five hundred years from the books in Westeros, a bunch of people are going to be like , “What’s a Targaryen?”
I can imagine HOTD Alicent being mortified over Aemond's murdering of Luke. Realizing how selfish and arrogant it was to displace the boys anger upon their nephews despite them only being symptoms of Rhaenyra's irresponsibility: not the root of it.
R and A were the ideal pawns. They portrait the power behind the Kings or princes, while the men in real power shift behind their backs and play their games. In the end both women want the same for their children. It is why I feel respect for both characters and feel sad for A being treated as just a vessel for Kings and a political tool. She is not viewed as a person by nobody... Except for R, who recognizes her struggle at it is her own
Rhenyra IS NOT a feminist character. She does not want power or emancipation of women, she just wants to be the top of the structure of power that will stay unchanged. And the fact that people REALLY argue that Alicent is supposed to drop her support of her sons claim due to female solidarity is so unbelievably naive. Its literally not how people work and function in the real world, not throught history, and not even in our modern, emancipated and liberal times.
People that think Rhaenyra would have overall improved women’s rights have never read about queen Victoria’s views on the suffrage movement of her time.
So a F&B theory that I really like has to do with Grand Maester Munken... In-universe, he wrote the first scholarly history of the Dance - presumably F&B is supposed to be heavily based on this history. Munken was the Grand Maester at the time of the death of Baelor and the passing-over of Daena. So I wonder if GRRM intended for the "see, this is what happens when women gain power - disastrous civil war" narrative to be manufactured by Munken, as part of a scheme to pass over Daena in favor of Viserys II? I suppose we can only wait for GRRM to procrastinate writing Winds so much he publishes F&B part 2 to see what Daena, Munken and Viserys II were up to.
I think that there are obviously factors in reality that can back up Alicent and Rhaenyra playing significant parts in the Dance (i.e. the fact that they were literally called the Green and Black factions), but I would be extremely surprised if there wasn't an emphasis placed on them to essentially pull off the Westerosi version of "women can't be president because they're too emotional" ridiculousness.
@@HillsAliveYT I would say that if we compare Viserys II with Daena, indeed the latter does not seem capable of governing. For Viserys II had an exemplary role as hand of the king from ruling while Aegon III was depressed, organizing the kingdom while Daeron I was at war and preventing Baelor from starting a war with the North and the iron islands to force them to convert to the faith of the 7 and for this. In fact, Viserys is much more fit and entitled than his niece Daena the defiant. Well, this was only limited to having illegitimate children like Daemon Fuegoscuro.
@@HillsAliveYT Yeah, Rhaenyra and Alicent obviously had power and influence. I just mean the pettiness of how the women's dispute is describes, with outdressing each other of stuff; the emphasis on the rumored illegitimacy of Rhaenyra's kids; the characterization of Daemon as a loose cannon - it all seems to neatly paint a picture of "women are terrible leaders, Daena's kid is gonna create a succession dispute so Daena will be a terrible leader, and only a crazy person would name their kid Daemon so Daena will be a terrible leader." So the dresses is such a weird and banal origin story for the names of the factions that I'm half wondering if that was Munken's history retcon as well... we don't get too many direct quotes in the book, but is any character ever quoted as calling the other faction the Greens or the Blacks? Aegon II's sigil doesn't even have any green on it. Kinda reminds me of the War of the Roses - I don't think either faction was strongly associated with a rose until after the war?
@@davidduran6163 Yeah Viserys II is my favorite king - I like to imagine him running around babbling about effective fiscal policy as he desperately cleans up messes from his idiot family. The Targaryen dynasty could easily have collapsed after the dragons died; the fact that it didn't seems to have been in large part due to Viserys. Still, we don't have too much info from this era, so I think its more than possible that Viserys' idiot family was slightly less crazy than we think. Daeron II's conquest in Dorne was probably partially a scheme to get a lot of fighting-aged men away from the heart of Westeros so the lords couldn't effectively rebel, and to unite the realm against a common enemy. Baelor's crazy Faith reforms put incompetent High Septons in charge, solidified the precedent for the Crown be directly involved in selecting High Septons and moved the headquarters of the Faith to King's Landing, right under the thumb of the Crown. Daena, Elaena and Aegon IV's extramarital affairs and kids were probably schemes to hatch dragons - dragon hatching seems somehow linked to pregnancy, childbirth, or babies. I'm a little suspicious that these rationales aren't really brought up in-universe... a lot of historical bias coloring this chunk of history, methinks.
@@HillsAliveYTYes! They were both obviously significant players in the war because of the positions that they’d been granted by the men in their lives. Rhaenyra was one of the two claimants. Alicent was the Dowager Queen and mother of the other claimant, a fairly young man without much political aptitude or drive to rule before he was crowned. (I’ll admit that that last part is open to interpretation based on the book because passing a lot of the blame from Aegon II to his mother Alicent would feed the misogynistic undertones of the framing of the story, but I like the way that the show handled Aegon II’s relationship with Alicent. It had more nuance than what Gyldayn presents.) They both made mistakes and did bad things. (Granted, Rhaenyra had the power to do more bad things during her spell as Half-Year Queen.) But framing nine year old Rhaenyra and eighteen year old Alicent as the driving forces behind this civil war from the time of Viserys I’s marriage downplays the way that the men in power, especially Otto, Viserys, and Daemon set this conflict up before Rhaenyra was even named heir. It also ignores the larger hierarchies at play in Westeros that made the Dance happen in the first place. Painting Rhaenyra as a tyrant absolves her male supporters of culpability for their actions and ignores the fact that she was attempting to establish her rule without access to the royal treasury while she actually was dealing with treachery in the capital and real betrayals. Did she handle these issues well? Absolutely not, but I do think that it’s noteworthy that when Aegon II, also broken from the war and heavy personal losses, executed Rhaenyra and took back KL, he kept Rhaenyra’s taxes in place and was similarly paranoid and cruel. Would Rhaenyra have made a decent monarch in times of peace? Maybe, maybe not. Same answer for Aegon II. We can’t know because we only got to see them actually rule during times of civil war. I don’t think that GRRM wants us to root for Rhaenyra, but I do think that he wants us to notice that Rhaenyra’s failures as a monarch are taken as a sign that women should never sit the Iron Throne while Aegon II’s failures are blamed on his own personal flaws (at least by Westerosi standards, since being overweight isn’t actually a character flaw, and that one’s definitely used against him, just like it is Rhaenyra), his mom, and his half-sister but not on his gender. Basically, I think that the way that you’re interpreting the “Princess and Queen” narrative is accurate and reflects real misogynistic historical takes on eras where women held power, such as the Sultanate of Women, the Pornacracy (the actual name for the era in papal history where a mother and daughter were alleged to have used their sons, husbands, and lovers to control the papacy), John Knox’s “First Blast of the Trumpet against the Monstrous Regiment of Women, the Pope Joan myth, and many others.
What I’ve found with a lot of people in the house of dragon fandom is that some people can’t get into the point of view of the world this takes place in and how that will affect how characters act.
Marrying Daemond was a very stupid act by Rhaenyra as one of the main reasons why many People supported her becoming the heir to the throne was (justified) fear of Deamond becoming King and this whole support ended with her Marriage.
Daemon as her general and Caraxes at his side are worth more in war then all combined armies of lords that stopped supporting Rhaenyra due to this marriage. From a standpoint of pure military value Rhaenyra made a good choise, but maybe if she did not marry Daemon war could be avoided, that is THE question.
@@thedoomofvalyria6466 Well he would probably have supported her anyways as he hates Otto and the question whether war could've been avoided is difficult as Otto might have still acted but Daemond definetly pushed for it, but the marriage simply made Rheanyra a less apealing heir for the throne.
Great video. I think it's funny that the general public consistently misunderstand the text because of the genre that text comes in. Like if this was a modern political drama, I think people might understand a bit more that this is all about men playing power games. Also, 2 things. I think that it's interesting that even if Rhaeynra gets what she wants, she'll still at most be a footnote in the history of male children's rules. And the second question, is do you believe there's any stake to the maester conspiracy theories behind the overthrow of the regime?
I think the maester conspiracy theories are massively overstated to make the maesters seem more powerful than they were. I think they could also very easily just take advantage of the Targaryen dynasty because it was a hot mess express to begin with, so they didn't necessarily need to bother with eliminating them when they could use them to their own ends instead.
I love this channel's point of view on sexism and male dominated structures. It's such a natural reflex for us to judge women in a certain light, reviling them, without taking a minute to understand their actual options and point of view. That goes for our real world too. Much to thank for in this channel
no the book captured their characters better . the show took away alicent's agency . In this universe all the people of power are after that iron throne , that's what they want , that's what Alicent want ( for her first born) and that's what Rhaenyra wants . the show weakened Alicent's character . the reality is that both these women are villains, because they let their personal matters outweight the survival of their legacies ... because of them both dragons became extinct ( to be fair until Dany came around way later ) .
Overall, this situation isn't on the shoulders of any one person. Yeah you could argue Otto and Daemon's beef had a heavy hand in it, but this ain't even solely on them either. I feel that, with all that said, the mass hate for Alicent is nuts when you consider that she's trying to do what she can for her children. Aegon II and Rhaenyra are both unfit to rule, but Alicent (even with the harsh words she needed to have with him) supporting her own son makes total sense. Alicent understands this continent operates 99% on the Patriarchy, and so she operates within those rules best she can with some power. Rhaenyra also navigates this (though, I argue she doesn't really plan it well, at all) and is doing her own thing as well, despite her not making her own claim any better or legitimate. That said, regardless of all this... maybe if there is one person to blame above all, its Viserys. Still, he's not the only one to have a part in this
I have two questions: Number one: would you consider making videos about the blackfyre rebellions? Number 2: will you be making videos about the more important side characters of the dance like unwin peake, sabitha frey, alyssane blackwood etc before their appearances in hotd?
Alicent and Rheanyra are doing nothing that real-life mediaeval queens weren't doing. Isabella of Castille, Elizabeth I, and Margrethe of Denmark all played the game because they had to. Rocking the boat wasn’t an option. Some, like Elizabeth, managed to do it without marrying a man. Some saw their position enhanced by the men they married. Some, like Mary, Queen of Scots, were completely controlled by the men around them. All these women were dealing with same sexism as in HOTD. I once read an article about Elizabeth I failed feminism. And it completely missed the point. She was never advocating for women to be in power. She was simply trying to thrive in the world of men and prove SHE could do it, because in the eyes of a 16th century monarch, it was her god given right. This is the same attitude of Rhaenyra and Alicent. Rhaenyra knows that to play the game, chances are she'll need a man with influence. Alicent, on the other hand, knows that her survival depends on the men in her life winning. They've grown up in a world that manipulates and tries to control them. If anything, it's naive of them not expecting the men in their lives to manipulate them. They're not supposed to be feminist icons on tv. They're just doing the same thing that every influential woman in the middle ages did. And having to put up with the same misogynistic crap their real life counterparts had to. We need to stop expecting women from these fantasy genres to be feminists of 2024. The men in their lives will always take advantage of them. Their strength comes in how they handle such manipulations.
As always a great Video thank you, I hope you feel well and take care of yourself. But the Way Rhaenyra and Allicent are portrayed in the Book of Fire and Blood I think gives us a Hint of how Daenerys will be remembered in the history of Westeros should we ever get the last Book. Daenerys will come to Westeros with her Dragons and all that is related to Fire and destruction will be blamed on her, to make sure the Men in History look better than they were. E.g. Aegon is a well-educated Brat who throws some tantrums and has a Surgorate Father with Bell-related PTSD. If that Surgorate Father starts the Burning of Kings Landing when Daenerys and her Dragons siege the City and fly over the City without any intention of Attacking, the History-Books will make it her fault, no matter what Color the Flames have, a Woman flew over Kings Landing with a Dragon and a fire started, it has to be her Fault. Because there is no reason why a Man like Aegon would start a Fire with hidden wildfire stocks (if even anyone knows that at that point) it must be the power-hungry Woman. It is just the misogynistic World-View we got from this Book (F&B) and the Main-Book-Series (ASOIAF). What I hope for, is a Shift in the Perception of Women at the End of the Main-Series ASOIAF mostly because, there won't be a lot of Men left at that point, mostly Women so there is Hope that the position Women are in will at least change a little bit.
I think that is super likely as well, especially given that Dany is going to likely be rolling up on Westeros with a lot of people that are already feared and hated by the country at large.
It definitely feeds into the unstable powered woman trope. And there's this book quote that I think fits really well with Dany (especially in the show) in regards to the path her character can take, "men of great power become gods; women of great power go insame and become destroyers- who in turn must be destroyed by the men who love them." Ultimately, Dany, Rhaenyra, and Alicent all lose in the end, one way or another. They can't win and the history written in westeros will reflect that.
I love your videos bc while I am quite biased a lot of the time, you bring my attention to things that are quite obvious and make me reevaluate my feelings about certain characters, particularly Alicent. Because, yeah, while Aegon is not ideal, this is a feudal society and it isn’t logical to think she’d support Rhaenyra over her own son. I also like how you point out some of the questionable choices of the show because I judge hbo viciously on so many decisions.
Many of the times you talk about mysoginy i end up in a wierd position, were i agree with your interpretation of the lore, in this case the series, but i dont agree with the implications you think the portrayal of said lore has. Like i dont think ANYONE saw house of the dragon and went ''heh, ofcourse, they put a women in power for once and they start a civil war'' its very very very clear thats not what the story is going for at all. And you explaining how ''they were just cogs in a bigger system and inherited their situations but alot of people dont understand that'' isnt that true, its obvious, everyone sees it.
Oh maybe I didn't make myself clear enough then, because I don't think the audience is meant to look at the Dance and think women be crazy, I think that the writing in F&B/the implication that Alicent and Rhaenyra were driving forces behind the Dance should have been more suspicious to the readers than it was because it was such a weird implication that didn't jive at all with the worldbuilding at large.
@@HillsAliveYT Rhaenyra is the powerful leader of her faction in both the book and show and it doesnt seem out of place even in the patriarchal society of westeros. The Queen of Westeros also having some power and wanting her son to inherit from the King is somehow out of place and suspicious?
The thing I think a lot of people (especially a lot of TB) don't understand is that the war wasn't about whether women could rule or not; that was something that regularly happened before the Targaryens. It was about whether the king had absolute power to name his heir, or if traditions and laws take precedence. Rhaenyra was named heir at a time when she was the only child and it was accepted because it was either her or Daemon, and while Viserys never publicly named Aegon his heir, he also never really publicly reaffirmed Rhaenyra's claim after Aegon’s birth. This left the claim up in the air: do you go off the words of a king made at a time when the situation was very different, or do you fall back on tradition? The Dance had nothing to do with feminism/sexism, and even if Rhaenyra officially took the throne, women wouldn't be considered on the same level as men and there was little evidence she actually cared about that at all outside of her own claim.
I agree with what you said about how their power are constrained and reliant on the men around her but I still the show can be criticized for reducing their roles. It's not unrealistic for a woman to hold great power from behind the scene in a patriarchal, ancient society : Livia Drusilla, Theodora (who seemed to have a real partnership with Justinian), the Julias of the Severan Dynasty, Queen Urraca of Castile and Leon (who also had bastards and got away with it, The She-Wolf from France (who led a rebellion against her husband) to name a few. I think my main issue with the way women are represented in the show is that apparently all women have to be good-hearted and peaceful and don't want power. Rhaenyra only wants to be queen because Viserys told her she had to, Alicent only wants to put Aegon on the throne because she thinks Viserys, who has supported Rhaenyra at the least moment, somehow changed his mind at the least second while almost unconscious and that becomes an order she has to follow, even though in ep6 she was openly defying him and wanted Aegon on the throne because she thought Rhaenyra would kill him (and that changed why?). Also Rhaenys makes weirdly anachronistic feminist speeches while always going along with the decisions of her sexist husband, Helaena is a walking spoiler, Baela and Rhaena are NPCs and there to stand pretty next to the strong boys, Myseria was heavily advertised and has like 3min of screentime.
Of course Rhaenyra does not care about other woman, I don’t get where people get that from. She’s literally stealing Belas birthright in order to make Luke the lord of Driftmark.
this isn't sexist or anything it is just the way the society works. everyone has a role, so, her role is dictated by her position in society. a queen's role is to produce offspring. the question of autonomy is non negotiable for a person in the role of a royal consort; it is a duty, not an optional choice. her power derives from her father then the king and then her royal children. a medieval king was expected to be able to fight and lead armies to battle, hens why the power structure favours men; in times of strife, the weak follow the strong and that is almost always the men. it isn't misogynist because they want to keep women down, it is the structure of the society in which they live that follows certain traditions that in absence of codified law, becomes the law. Alicent has the kings sons and high legitimacy due to traditional precedent. Rhaenera was never made queen, so no precedent was set to start the change of traditional male succession. the story isn't supposed to be some smoothbrain take on feminism, but hey thats the fanfiction the show created. lets see how season two goes.
I think that Otto doesn't include Alicent in his schemes because he doesn't really trust her. Even though she wants to place her son on the Iron Throne, Alicent can sometimes seem ambivalent about that, and she even goes so far as to loudly proclaim Rhaenyra as the rightful queen of the kingdoms. There are many times throughout the show in which she says this blatantly, in front of other people. Just watch episode 8 if you don't believe me, the scene where it seems like everyone is getting along. So, I understand Otto. I wouldn't trust Alicent either. I would never include her in any conspiracies involving Aegon's ascension. I'm sorry. Otto has literally told her over and over that this situation doesn't have a happy ending for her and her children, and she is too naive to listen. Why would anyone want to plot with a person like that?
She is not stating that Rhaenera should be the ruler by her opinion, but rather _legally_ and as the people see it, laying out what they are up against. Her father's biggest miscalculation was treating her as a tool instead of an ally, because he caused her to be a whole independent player who won't rely on him either, given the choice.
Yes I think that is completely fair and Otto's reasoning makes sense too, including her in his plans could have put those plans at risk for sure. I guess maybe a more solid insight into why that is an issue is because, if Alicent were a man, then he might not even be able to exclude her in the way that he does because she would have legitimate power in her own right, which might require him to at least rope her into his schemes sometimes.
@@lidu6363 Aegon has a far more legitimate claim than Rhaenyra, to be honest. The first half of Fire and Blood basically establishes that. The fact that Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir, but did nothing to try and prepare her or everyone else for that, is precisely what makes Aegon's claim so much stronger. I'm thinking about making a video about that soon, so maybe you can check it out when I do. Anyways, even if Rhaenyra did have a stronger claim than Aegon, Alicent is supposed to support her son in such matters - especially publicly. She's the same person who lectured Aegon about the importance of public appearances, and yet she herself doesn't know how to follow her own advise. It's craziness. And it's craziness to expect Otto (a person who is serious about putting her son on the Iron Throne) to scheme with a person like that. Otto never treated her like an independent player because she didn't behave like a player in the first place. In 'the game' you have to pick a side - not root for the enemy. I fully understand Otto's ambivalence towards her.
I personally take the "patriarchy made me do it" vibe of HOT D's portrayal of Rheanyra & Alicent's conflict with a grain of salt. First of all, I don't think George RR Martin would chose Rheanyra and Alicent to put in the Anthology "Dangerous Women" had he imagined the characters as they were portrayed on HOT D. Secondly, even though in the Middle Ages women's potential in positions of power was genarally oppressed, they weren't totally vessels of the patriarchy who had zero agency. There actually were single minded female rulers, of both good and bad shades of human nature.
I'm not a huge fan of "patriarchy made me do it" characters either, I think it's becoming the new one-note characterization for less ethical women characters
I mean, I feel that your completely downplaying the all encompassing damage that patriarchy has had on ALL of the characters lives. It’s really not about just feminism.
Another video essay replete with dazzling, luminous insight. You deserve so many more subscribers! I'm making it my mission to get you as a guest on one of the big ASOIAF podcasts. To be clear, I'm nobody, just a fan, but I think you deserve way more recognition!
11:59 *Do you think it was deliberate on the show's part to make Rhaenyra against absolute primogeniture for others?* You are absolutely right to call it out, but I get the feeling it was incidental. I say this based on the many things #GoT explicitly set up but never addressed later or barely so. For eg, Davos never has any personal conflict with Tyrion when he literally ordered the killing of his son. I know the writing team is mostly different, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was a detail they didn't think through.
I do think it was deliberate just because A. scripts really do have to be vetted and seen by so many people before actually even getting to the production stage and B. because "sons" is directly and specifically relevant to the issue that Rhaenyra is addressing at the time, because she is literally trying to use Luke's maleness to her advantage in order to claim Driftmark when she could just as easily support one of Daemon's daughters for the inheritance instead.
The clash of Alicent and Rhaenyra occurs because the eldest of the king's sons who by law was supposed to inherit was disinherited as soon as he was born and became the only one among 10,000 firstborn sons of Westeros who was not his father's heir. That level of contempt from a father for who by law is your son, would have sparked a war in any monarchy and if Viserys at the very least called a council to choose between Aegon II and Rhaenyra. The war would have been avoided but he knew that Rhaenyra would lose the election by about 20 to 1 just like Rhaenys. For equality the throne would be Rhaenys and for male primogeniture is Aegon II, Rhaenyra's claim makes no sense apart from the decision of a bad king and worse father.
And this is exactly why I tend to ride for the Greens abnormally hard, because literally any other family in the same position would have done the same thing because whether or not the system is hella unfair, it was absurdly unfair to basically say "screw you in particular" and it's not something that any family would have stood for no matter the circumstances.
What did Viserys marry Alicent for in the first place? Didn't he expect her to be able to have children and wasn't he the one wanting to have a male heir so badly? If he had at least declared Rhaenyra his heir IN CASE he would have NO legitimate son the whole situation would have been avoided.
@@HillsAliveYT alicent could've went back to old Town, get a life of her own and open a academy for girls. I'm sure her children would be happy without the throne
@@holly-hobbiest3141 Dear, there would still be at least 5 Targaryen males that by traditions, customs and laws. They have more rights than Rhaenyra and her illegitimate children, the eldest is forced to eliminate them because each one has a greater right, you are applying the logic of the modern world to a medieval world and for this reason the black fandom is wrong. Well, they think they are watching an episode of Gossip Girl and if they had read a single page of medieval history... they wouldn't come up with statements as absurd as this one.
Real Alicels know Alicent and Rhaenyra toxic yuri star crossed lovers romance is the best part of House of the Dragon. It is the central foundation of the show and what makes the show so emotionally complex and why the average asoiaf hates it. Because is all about the story of two women in a feudal patriarchy with a strong antiwar message. Targ stans wanted wanted Alicent to be a evil stempom for their daemyra self insert and Aegon self inserts wanted Alicent to be a "devoted mother, her catelyn to Aegon's Robb" archetype. I'm so glad they were bold enough to think out of the box and come up with an incredibly layered social snd psychological relationship that is a tragic unfulfilled romance for the ages. Alicent slowly breaking out of her chains free under the skies after losing everything. While rhaenyra gains everything only to be trapped in her golden cage. Role reversal! The visual symbolism of how season 2 ends. It's a beautiful greek tragedy.
I think it so intresting how the Targaryen family adapted to the sexism of their new kingdom. Both Aegon the First's sisters had significant power that wasnt questioned. And neither Aegon or Orys saw them as lesser than becuase they were women. However when we go down the timeline the Targaryen men become all so sexist. We see this with Alyssanne and Rhaenys and when we come to Rhaenyra she is nothing more than a baby-making machine.
Ehhh are we talking about Orys Baratheon because if we're trying to make an argument that the Targaryens are egalitarian he's not the example I would use.
@@HillsAliveYT Well, maybe only in the case of his half-sisters that is. I guess Targaryen women are his exception. He had no problem with Rhaenys who led the spiege on Storm's End. And Aegon treated his sisters as his most best advisors. I believe that during Aegon's reign he treated his sisters as equals. Much in the same way as Dorne, ironically.
It's real funny of you to say that sexism or prejudice was a ‘learned’ thing for targs because the last i checked they only declare aegon 1 as the conqueror even though rhaenys and visenya did equal amounts of work when it came to the conquering. The dragon has 3 heads right? so why was the only man labeled as the conqueror by targs, why weren't his two sister wives remembered as the same? 😂 yeah! it's comical that you'd consider that they had any liberal ideas from the get go when these were the same people taking part in slavery back home in valyria (and dragonstone too)
@@hightower19 i believe that the Targaryen family was far more equal than most families in Westeros. The fact that Aegon was crowned king has to do with the fact that Westeros would not accept a queen if a king was available. The Targaryens adopt to their land. But i believe that Aegon was a feminist. He never treated his sisters badly and respect female autority in the Vale and Dorne.
@@lasloapollo4312 if visenya or rhaenys couldn't be crowned inplace of aegon then why on earth were they not even made hand of the king? Why was his half brother orys made hand for helping aegon in the war when his sister wives also helped him in the wars? Lmao be serious, not only this targ dragonlords have a history of taking multiple wives since old valyria but there is not a single instance of targ women having multiple husbands even when the targs hadn't conquered Westeros. These were the people who were making chimerias out of their innocent poor s*laves. I know you like them but you don't really have to push the whole ‘they were more liberal than westerosies” propaganda in order to justify your choices, they're fine regardless. Also treating your sister/wife with respect does not make you a feminist 🤣 that's basic human decency
So you agree with Sara Hess that anything in F&B that makes Alicent or Rhaenyra seem ambitious or strong or cruel or flawed is just a misogynistic lie and should be removed from the show version of the same story? Their conflict on the show is better because they both play no role in it and neither of them wants power or bear any responsibility for anything that happens? The show turned Alicent from a strong leader into a weak puppet who never does anything and who doesnt even want anything, she just does as she's told and then is sad about it. She doesnt even want her own son on the throne and never did. There is no conflict between Rhaenyra and Alicent on the show because Alicent doesnt support team green and doesnt want her own family to come into power. She just reluctantly goes along with it because she was told to. She sees Rhaenyra and Daemon (apparently) killing Laenor so they could get married, sees them execute her ally Vaemond right in front of her, sees Rhaenyra ask for her injured son to be put to torture and then decides to just embrace Rhaenyra as queen anyway, even though it will likely mean the deaths of her sons.
No I don't think it's all lies, I think the notion that Alicent and Rhaenyra were the engines behind the civil war is probably incorrect because it doesn't make any sense within the broader context of their world.
I love this analysis, just my own thoughts here but does Allicient really see Aegon as someone who will give her respect or as someone she finally has some power over as his mother? Also there is an assumption that Rhaenyra succession = Hightower death which only really seems justified after Laenor’s exit to me.
I would make one argument about your phrasing. You continually use "misogynistic" as opposed to "chauvinistic". Before anyone argues that they are synonyms, the nuance is important. The connotation of misogynistic would be hatred for women on the basis of their sex, whereas the connotation of chauvinistic would be that men should naturally have a superior existence compared to women on the basis of their sex. It's the distinction between hatred and dismissiveness of agency based on sex that I'm calling attention to.
If a society that allows men to rape, abuse, and even kill women for their own benefit doesn't meet the standard of what constitutes misogyny, I can't imagine what would.
@@HillsAliveYTBut this one doesn't simply allow them to rape. HOTD shows they get gelded and GoT shows they get to the wall, which is basically a prison colony. Edit: And Lucamore Strong didn't rape anyone, but for breaking a vow of chastity he was gelded AND sent to the wall.
@@sardonically-inclined7645yeah it does. Marital rape is real, and in a society where women are essentially sold off it doesn’t give them a way to say no when their lord husband decides it’s time.
@@midnightmadness6344A Fair enough, though I would put forward that's why this particular era of the Targaryen saga is ironically stupid. Hard to say whether there would have been a more appropriate time than putting forward a woman as a successor to at least in part try to institute Dornish law. Especially since the woman rides a dragon and has the allegiance of other women and men who ride dragons. Just as importantly, why is nothing about negotiations with Dorne and Rhaenyra exploring that avenue and alliances with Dorne to introduce the notion at court ever touched upon? It seems like a wasted opportunity. Especially since they made Cole half-Dornish in the show.
I always enjoy your analysis, however the dance of the dragons wasn’t framed as a war between Rhaenyra and Alicent, it is a war between Rhaenyra and her Aegon. I agree that it is definitely questionable that a petty beef between two powerful women be blamed for the atrocities to follow, even though nearly all other conflicts start as petty beefs between men.
I would tend to disagree a bit because of things like the fact that it is literally considered the Greens vs. the Blacks, like yes Aegon is the person who would end up on the throne if the Greens win but the faction themselves is defined by Alicent, not Aegon or anyone else.
Men can't pee standing up without y'all calling it misogynistic or toxic masculinity. I have seen hundreds of viewpoints of the show and this is the ONLY one that has managed to make this feminist, and it coming from a woman.
Really enjoyed this video. You make a very persuasive argument. I agree with all you're saying about Alicent. I do feel though that your understandable green sympathies sometimes make you a little hard on HotD Rhaenyra. Some of her worst decisions may well have been influenced by necessity. It's worth remembering that a Rhaenyra who played by the rules of Westerosi society would probably have been childless when her father died. If the Greens chose to challenge her she would have had exactly one dragon and no heir, other than her rival. I doubt the Valaryons or even Daemon would have wanted to risk their necks on such long odds. Bear in mind her father basically told her the fate of the world relied on House Targaryen being led by someone worthy and Aegon doesn't exactly dazzle... (On a side note: I know Rhaenyra's mother had Targaryen ancestry but I still think most people would have still have seen her primarily as an Arynn.)
LOL yes completely fair because I am extra hard on Rhaenyra, I undeniably have a bias in Alicent's favor but I also feel like the common fandom POV on Rhaenyra interprets her SO favorably that I feel the need to push back on it harder than I might were it not for all of the people who act like she has done nothing wrong and that every character who acts out against her is objectively insane for not risking their lives to support her.
I think when you look a the example of powerful women of the realm at this time, it's more or less the rule. Jaehaerys' direct heir should've been Rhaenys, but she was snubbed for Baelor and she had considerable influence in the realm for her post, which didn't amount to much. Rhaenrya and Allicent more or less have been snubbed from power as well, much like her because of the generational traditions in place. The way the story is told is misogynistic placing the blame squarely on their shoulders when it was a succession of mistakes from Jaehaerys, Otto, Daemon..
I have a major problem with people using the patriarchal system as a reasoning for Alicent's and Rhaenyra's seemingly bad reputations during the civil war. Previous and subsequent Targaryen Kings have some godawful reputations and no one goes around blaming the Maesters for bias against them even though we know the Maesters do not like the Targaryens. Just because women did not have the power that men did during these times, we cannot and should not pretend that women cannot be at the forefront of conflicts. This is patronizing misogyny disguising itself as defending women. STOP BLAMING WOMEN'S BAD ACTIONS ON THE PATRIARCHY!!!!!
I know this has absolutely nothing to do with the video but does anyone else think that Dragonstone is a ridiculous seat for the Heir to the Iron Throne? It's a little island that has few natural resources and only a handful of lesser Houses sworn to it, so how the hell is it supposed to teach the Heir anything about ruling? I get that its supposed to be the Westerosi equivalent of Prince/Princess of Wales but it makes no sense to me. English Heirs were essentially presiding over a Kingdom of their own and learning on the job but what does Dragonstone offer? To me it makes more sense as a seat for a second son and that was basically what it was until Aenys decided to name his Aegon the Prince of Dragonstone. If we look at Rhaenyra, Dragonstone isolated her politically and gave the Greens the upper hand they needed to hide Viserys' death and crown Aegon. I don't know, maybe I'm thinking too deeply about it but I'm curious to hear other people's thoughts.
I would argue that Rhanyeera has made a lot of big moves, and drove a lot of what happened in the season. Her former friend was sometimes a victim of circumstance and later in the season, I felt she overcompensated or overreacted to her circumstances caused by Viserys, Otto and Rhanyeera
I am one of the people who got very annoyed with how they took both Alicent and Rhaenyra's agency away and made way too many things accidental, but you've made me think about it in a different way. Great video!
Alicents children were created from duty whilst Rhaenyra's children were created from love and the freedom of choice. There is a clear difference there that many can't seem to grasp. Great video
Both women had children out of duty. Rhaenyra is shown to be comfortable with her situation, which does not mean they are not aware of the importance of providing heirs.
Rhaenyra consistently threw Allicent under the bus, wanted to have her child tortured, lied to her on her mother's grave, and never showed much support. I don't think Allicent owes default support to her just because she's a woman, especially since Rhaenyra married a dangerous man (Daemon) who was willing to order her grandchildren and children k*lled. If anyone failed other women in this scenario, it was Rhaenyra, a woman who disregarded the wellbeing of anyone other than herself. It's also important to note that while Rhaenyra was denied a leadership role because of gender, she still isn't necessarily a good leader and we don't have to support unqualified candidates solely on the basis of identity - even while I concede all identities should have equal opportunities in positions. The writers themselves were biased against Allicent. One openly said she was inspired by "women for Trump" which honestly could be said of Rhaenyra as well. If any GOT plotline explores internalized misogyny well, it was the High Septon and her sl*t-shaming crusade on behalf of religion. Or Cersei viewing other women as threats/letting them be harmed/lashing out at them because she couldn't control the way men treated her. This show ... couldn't cut it this way. If anything, it just pits women against each other in an anti-feminist way.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, even though it is super creepy and very immoral, Rhaenyra should have groomed the fuck out of Aegon the Younger and married him, she has such an age and experience edge over him, that if she tried to get him under her thumb from the time he was born, she could have controlled him, prevented war, and maintained the throne, at the cost of having to marry a kid brother.
It is fascinating to see to which degree you go to try to make those woman not accountable to their actions. Why ? They didn't climb the social hierarchy, they were part of it. Alicent was a pawn in the youth, she realized it by episode 9. Rhaenyra being chosen as new queen was a foolish decision by viserys.
the book was about morally grey factions competing for power. On the show Rhaenyra and Alicent have never done anything bad in their lives, Aegon/Otto/Criston are evil monsters with no redeeming qualities whatsoever while R&A are blameless unambitious innocent victims of the patriarchy at all times. The show flat out says team green is bad and team black is good, the only exception is that Alicent is basically on team black herself because the only thing she cares about is Rhaenyra.
I think having different writers hurt Alicent’s character. They had her attacking Luke and Rhaenyra. Then acting reconciled to crowning Aegon. She should have just accepted Halena to Jace proposal it was better for her daughter.
The civil war was a conflict between social hierarchies. Having a woman in power is neither a subversion nor a perversion of patriarchy, it's an opportunity for patriarchy to fight against primogeniture, for military might to fight against wealth and prestige, for magic blood to fight against religion and literacy, for the ferocity of dragons to fight against the grace and esteem of noble propriety. It's a story about two women fighting a proxy war between these hierarchies trying to degrade and usurp them. We've seen the world 170 years later, so we know patriarchy won and dragons lost.
I don't know if you'll see this, but i really love your videos. Unfortunately i hesitate to watch them, because i don't want to be spoilered. Would it be possible for you to include a warning if you discuss things, that explain the story further than the series right now?
Hi! I actually try to read every comment that I get and I'm already on the same page with you, usually if I'm covering a topic and want to make a certain point, I try to do that using info that HotD viewers would already know/has already been shown on HotD, and if I have to do anything that isn't very obviously spoilery already (i.e. like if I'm doing a video on characters that haven't even been introduced to the series yet, it's going to include spoilers) I do try to include a warning in the description or even in the video itself. But if I spoiled you on something that I missed/forgot was a spoiler, sorry!
Love that you addressed this! It is so clear that in the book women are being blamed far more than is reasonable. And in very sexist ways. I also appreciate how you point out that Rhaenyra isn't a feminist herself (I'd even say she was more similar to Cersei, wishing she was male). It's made super clear through Rheana and Baela - not only did she say her sons will inherit, but also therefore overlooked the girls themselves as being rightful inheritors of Driftmark. However, she didn't overlook the girls because she's a sexist - she did it for the same reason that Aliecent can't let Rhaenyra inherit the throne. It means their sons being overlooked and disinherited. For them it's not "women-power!" It's about promoting their own immediate family. Honestly, the potential for Rhaenyra's rein (and Daenerys later on) could be interesting to look at historically in England. There were queens who attempted to take the crown in their own right in history. When it got taken by their brothers, women didn't get to rule except as regents for a long time. Then, came Lady Jane Grey, Queen Mary I, and Queen Elizabeth. They were all each other's competition, and Lady Jane Grey was very much manipulated by the men around her. Once it was Elizabeth on the throne, it was her policy to never marry, to declare herself married to England, and she made herself out be the EXCEPTION among women. She could not continue to be seen as the true ruler if she had a man beside her or if she tried to promote women as women. However, her rule DID pave the way for future women rulers. "Queen" Rhaenyra being the attempted queen, like "Queen" Matilda (look it up - it is exremely clear that GRRM took inspiration from Matilda for Rhaenyra's story). Princess Marcella might be like Lady Jane Grey (especially sonce others orchestrated her attempt at queendom - Lady Jane was also forgiven for a few years before the men around her attempted to crown her again and she "needed" to be executed). Queen Daenerys unfortunately has more similarities with Queen Mary I, because of the show - she wasn't much more violent than male rulers, but history remembers her as Bloody Mary. According to the show, that may be Daenerys's legacy as well. Maybe there will be a Queen Elizabeth in the books - if there is, she won't be any more a step toward feminism than Elizabeth was. She'll only made it easier for future royal women who don't have brothers (literally- Queen Elizabeth II only made it so that the older daughter inherits before the younger son in the 21st century. They adjusted to the feminism of the culture - not the other way around).
Fire and blood was never about girl power. It was about male fragility. When it comes down to it, if the lords of Westeros had accepted Raenyra as heir, millions of lives would have been spared. The blackfyre rebellions never would have happened. Robert’s rebellion never would have happened. The dragons wouldn’t have died out and there would have been more than just 3 dragons and one dragon rider to fight against the king night. But no. A violent, sadistic idiot needs to succeed instead of the battle proven strategically minded heir because he has a dick. Obviously he’s the better choice despite the fact that he makes his own children fight to the death for his own entertainment. Alicent’s only hope of survival is hitching her entire family’s wagon to that same incompetent sadist in no small part due to the plans her own father laid. It’s not about female empowerment. It’s about male fragility.
@@arobin6695 Raenyra. Yes she makes mistakes and is short sighted at times, but she does make many very smart and strategic decisions as well. An example being when Viserys and the council were wringing their hands over her safety and she made the smart decision of going to dragon stone and putting down Daemon’s defiance and enforcing the king’s justice. Then later, marrying Daemon greatly strengthened her claim as heir. Then behind her, Aemond is also a responsible and capable heir. Hell even Daemon is a more ideal choice. Aegon has done nothing but make selfish, destructive decisions that undermine his own claim cause problems.
@@missanthropy6174 Rhaenyra on the show is easily a much better potential ruler than show Aegon but your description of her seems...generous? Maybe even a bit exaggerated? To be battle proven, wouldnt she have had to fight in a battle at some point in her life? She got the egg back from Daemon which was a nice victory but that was because she knew he wouldnt hurt her, she wasnt really in any danger. Being married to Daemon was one of the main reasons the greens usurped her in the book, since he was notoriously dangerous and unpredictable and it was believed that it would have been Daemon truly ruling Westeros despite her sitting on the throne. She proved to be very incompetent when she came into power, throwing a lavish party for her son Joffrey while her overtaxed people starved, getting overthrown by her own citizens within 6 months and letting the dragons in the dragon pit get wiped out. Though the show version will remove all those moments and make her getting overthrown entirely the fault of her evil male advisors or because of the sexism of the citizens instead.
@@arobin6695 ok, GRRM has stated himself that the book as written from the perspective of a male maester with a patriarchal agenda a hundred years after the fact. This is something that has been true in our real history. Historians keep biased records and women with power have been demonized by history by sexist historians. Was marrying Daemon the main reason the greens usurped her? Because I recall Otto planning to ensure Aegon’s ascension long before Rae was even married to Laenor let alone Daemon. And their fear of Daemon’s volatile nature is extremely hollow given that he has shown way more restraint and competence than the prince they are backing. Rae needed to marry a Targaryen and of her limited options, Daemon was the best. He had proven his fertility and came with allies and military power. Just because the history book stated it was a bad move doesn’t mean it was. Then it’s pretty sexist to discount her victory over Daemon. She was a child when she faced off with him and she didn’t know that he wouldn’t her. Most royal leaders don’t actually fight but they still show military competence. And as dragon riders, they essentially function as pilots who also don’t physically fight. Rae has shown herself to be an effective pilot, certainly more than her half brother. Then all of the other “mistakes” you listed could have easily been exaggerated or reported unreliably by the same maester with an agenda against female leaders. But even if they are, weigh them against the leadership of Aegon. Even with a narrator biased in his favor, he was an incompetent monster. Then remember that many of the poor choices Rae made were made under extreme stress caused by the men who would rather betray the edicts of their king and prop up an incompetent sociopath than allow a woman to ascend. That’s my point. The story isn’t about girl power. It’s about how destructive male fragility can be.
@@missanthropy6174 sexist to discount her victory over Daemon? Come on now, she had a good relationship with him so she went there, asked for the egg back and he gave it to her. Riding her dragon there is not showing military competence, one of her biggest flaws is that she avoided all the combat throughout the war and let other do her fighting for her, though the show will certainly remove that 'flaw' from her as well. Unlike her Aegon fought and defeated numerous enemies and their dragons, in the show Aegon hasnt demonstrated any riding skill but in the book he and his dragon have a closer bond than any other rider in the series and unlike Rhaenyra he fought his own battles. I like Rhaenyra as a character but she doesnt fight or show military competence the way Aegon does. That is one of his only postive qualities so the show will certainly take that away from him too. And yes, like I said, every instance of her being a bad ruler will be dismissed by the show writers as misogynistic lies. A female character will never be allowed to be flawed or responsible for bad things happening on the show. In the book Rhaenyra's supporter Mushroom can make up a story about Aegon visiting child fighting pits and of course that's true according to the show writers, but anything that makes Rhaenyra look bad was made up out of sexism and should never be allowed to be part of the show. There were 3 narrators in F&B, one biased in favour of Aegon, one biased in favour of Rhaenyra and one mostly neutral. The show writers decided that everything bad said about Aegon was true and everything bad said about Rhaenyra was a lie. That's lame as hell. the book presented two morally grey factions vying for power. One led by a woman, one led by a man. In the end, both were cruel and incompetent and didnt last long. The show is saying Rhaenyra is the chosen perfect ruler and the only thing she does wrong in her entire life is being born a woman and that the only 'true' enemy in the story is all the evil men who stand in the way of the super noble and benevolent women rulers.
I absolutely love your take and breakdown of House of the dragon. George r.r. Martin stories are all about people. And the complexity of. And how neither are one-hundred-percent good or one-hundred-percent bad. I really dislike Allison hightower. If you just think about the fact that we're narrow was willing to torture one of her sons for calling her children bastards. Show she's not a very good person. I understand she was taking care of her kids. But her kids authority permanently blinded someone. And she wasn't willing to take responsibility for that at all. And people sweep that under the rug completely. And never look at the nuance to that. Anyways I love your take on it because you see that the characters are not meant to be 100% good and 100% bad.
I went from absolutely loving the games of Throne world to hating it even in a fantasy world. The women are still getting the short end of the stick and I don’t like that.
This is why it hurts me that Daenerys was done so dirty in the end of GoT. She ignored what the men around her said and would try to do her own thing and even SHE was villainized.
Creo que la Raenira de la serie si habría sido una buena reina si no hubiera sufrido todo por lo que va a pasar, pero como tú dices es verdad ella no cambiara el mundo solo seguirá el mismo siclo, probablemente sería una versión con tetas de su padre con un poco más de petulancia y agresividad, por otro lado me pareció innecesario lo de la infidelidad sé que me van a decir que no sería natural pero no estamos ablando de albinos normales, son albinos que montan dragones y en algunos casos soportan el fuego, que problema habría sido decir que ella y su primer esposo si cumplieron con sus 3 hijos pero como pasa según las reglas de Mendel los genes Valirios son más fuertes que los de Guesteros que pasan a ser recesivos, por lo que como pasa en la vida real los niños no siempre salen como los padres sino como los abuelos y bis abuelos. Y un buen ejemplo de reina infiel habría sido Catalina la Grande, que todo lo hiso con discreción para no quedar embarazada y demostró una genuina preocupación por mantener en buenas condiciones a su nación, tanto así que busco que saltaran a su hijo y nombraran a su nieto como heredero porque para ella él estaba más calificado para el cargo.
