@@b1bbscraz3y Word. For instance Emma D'Arcy and Olivia Cooke are both stellar, but even they couldn't get past some of the meh writing in a couple of their scenes together.
the problem isn't the slow pacing, it's the boring repetitive dialogue Tywin had the best scenes in GOT and we never saw him in battles, it was always talking and talking and talking, but literally none of his scenes are boring
Yes exactly! This show had bad, repetitive dialogue and the character actions to me didn't make sense. GRRM knows how to write all kinds of characters, but these show writers clearly don't.
I think many got a bad taste of corporate greed with the show. HBO and Warner Bros cut costs whereas in GOT they allowed Dave & Dan unlimited funding. I thought I read they had 10 full episodes, but had to cram as much as possible in 8. That’s what hit me the wrong way. Great summary, thanks.
They had episodes 9 and 10 written, but then were told only 8 episodes before filming, so they basically just cut them. Now Season 3 is only 8 episodes and has to cram in a bunch of material.
@@burddog0792 They also legally couldn't rewrite their 8 episodes to include the cut content because of the writers strike, so they were forced to use what they already had.
I actually think that 8 episodes would’ve suited this season much better had the season been written for 8 episodes from the beginning. I say this because there was a lot of unnecessary filler that easily could’ve been cut and replaced with different scenes. I get ppl like the 10 episode format but sometimes it’s better to cut a show down if that’s what the story requires.
I also think it was marketed the wrong way, like it was almost like they promised a bunch more action, but we instead got a bunch of build up. Like if they had just marketed it by what we were getting, the public reception would have been much better. Regardless, i still enjoyed the season and want a season 3.
finally someone who doesnt hate it and compares it to got season 8! i mean Hotd s2 has its mistakes but its not a total mess, its more good than bad season at least in my opinion. It could have been better, but its not completely awful
They also marketed it as both sides being hard to cheer for and you'll have a hard time picking a side, but they clearly did make team Black the "good guys" and team Green as the "bad guys". It was apparent after the first season how they were writing it. I wanted it to be a grey decision for who to support. I support team Green just out of spite for the writers because they don't want anyone to like them.
You are mostly trying to debunk the hate this season is getting - I get that. But a lot of the criticism is fair. The writers say HotD will be 4 seasons - so more than 50% of the season is finished (S1 ws 10 ep, following ones are likely to be 8 ep). But so far we have got only one major battle. There are so many battles and aftermaths remaining with complex plots, and they have only about 16 episodes to go over them. This will inevitably lead to rushed storytelling and teleportations, like GoT S7 and S8. THIS is the main issue. In fact, I think, due to time and budget constraints, they will leave out some of the important battles to focus on only three major battles - Gullet, Tumbletone, and God's Eye. That will suck.
If WB owner a sports teams, they would break their star players legs so they didn't have to pay him as much, and then they'd be shocked and confused when their team didn't perform well. Westerosverse is a money printing machine they have to do it let it be good. Literally, all the studio has to do it nothing, just don't actively fuck up your star franchise... but they are clearly incapable of that. They cut the budget of their star show, effectively knee capping it, and then will be utterly confused when it doesn't make as much money as they thought it would. It's honestly some form of mental illness. A golden retriever could manage this property better than whoever has it now. Just give grrm and condal what they need and let them go to work, that's the most profitable route. Can you imagine a corporate board looking over Michaelangelo's shoulder as he painted, telling him what to put in and take out. Business and art really mix like oil and water. Business types don't understand art, and they don't understand that they don't understand art. So they put their own little additions into a masterpiece, fuckin it up, and then don't understand why everyone hates them. SMH. With that totally unnecessary lesbian kissing, and that 1 general being a pretty, skinny female, they are just barely keeping their politics out of this. next season It will probably be worse. by the end it will just be another rings of power, i'm afraid. Can't have shit anymore. ( When something is just shoehorned in, and we are expected to just pretend that we didn't notice, it's insulting to the intelligence. It's like if they remade mean girls except Gretchen was played by Mark Wahlberg.And if you thought that was stupid , then you're apparently a bad person)
If we’re being fair to critics, I think a lot of the backlash is due to the absurd wait times between seasons that HotD & other current shows have. If people only had to wait until April-June 2025 for Season 3 to begin, there’d still the be unhinged hate, but a lot of normal people wouldn’t be annoyed.
Agree 💯💯 it's a far cry from waiting 7months for a new walking dead season for e.g. to waiting two years for a new season of any new series, and then hoping the payoff is worth it. People have been burned by series too many times, so I totally get the frustration.
On one hand I agree to an extent of what you mean from the consumer standpoint of waiting two years for something you’re hoping to be excellent, only to be subpar, but I honestly don’t have a problem with the time it takes for it to be done because it can take 7 months but we would still have the same result as a 2 year wait with no difference being other than time. As someone who hasn’t read the books at all and isn’t indicative of my love for the show and entire world of Westeros past and present, I find both GoT and HoTD well produced from the shows standpoint, even though there are criticisms in areas they should’ve improved being the professional show writers directors etc that they are given that their actors/actresses are putting in an unprecedented time onto a show that has captured millions on millions worldwide. Criticisms aside, I find the whole thing fascinating and the thing about wanting your own alternative of what you prefer to see or end it as, may not be agreeable to the next person. Humans aren’t monolithic beings so there’s never no pleasing everyone.
Also, the way you dismiss the bookreaders is weird. A LOT of the changes in the show do not make any sense. Criston killing Joffrey in a wedding and not getting any punishment, the whole Rhaenys thing during Aegon's coronation, the Blood & Cheese, Alicent's 'mistake', the Greens being absolute evil and the Blacks being pure good, changing Laenor's death but going nowhere with it, making Rhaenyra and Alicent's supposed 'love' being the main them (lmao), just to name a few.
The only way I would have accepted Criston's situation would have been if he had been downgraded from King's Guard to the City Watch as punishment. And as a trade, Harwin Strong would have graduated as a King's Guard. And as a King's Guard, he would have become close to Rhaenyra and that's how they would have become intimate. So by doing that, it's create solutions for two storyline binds.
@@stephenaspliff3763They cut out the only black character in the book's Dance, and now Rhaena and Sheepstealer's stories will have to be drastically different from the book. It feels unnecessary
@@stephenaspliff3763 Nettles effectively proved that you didn't need to have Valyrian blood to tame a dragon. She proved that the myth of Targaryen supremacy was just that; a myth. Even random peasants can get dragons. They are not special.
if we didnt have two years between seasons it wouldnt feel as bad, but the truncated season and the pacing issues really hurt the season. As much of a Racallio Ryndoun stan that I am, it was weird they would introduce Shakaro Lohar in the final episode and have nothing to do but mud wrestle Tyland.
Aegon's arc: In season 1 he is a disgusting; evil; drunk and graper child. Then suddenly he is a lovely, caring father who searches how he could develop himself 💀 What an arc was that 🤣
@@Hear.myvoice tbf, season one didn't really explore Aegon's character. We only got him in 4 episodes (ep6-7 when he was younger and ep8-9 when he's older). Season 1 was basically an introduction for his character. In season 2, we got to see MORE of him but still not enough to fully show/flesh out his character (he only got less than 40 mins this season, meanwhile Rhaenyra got almost 2 hrs and Alicent/Daemon got more than an hour of screentime doing basically nothing and repetitive stuffs). They didn't even bother to explore more about his relationship with Helaena, with his children (didn't talk about jaehaerys AND didn't even mention jaehaera especially after B&C), his relationship with his dragon - Sunfyre, and many more. THAT'S THE WRITERS' FAULT. But despite that, among all the characters, he's the most consistent written and has the best character arc this season, even the actors of the show recognized this. His arc starting from ep5-8 is basically a NEW introduction for his character arc in the next seasons. “What he loses physically, he gains it emotionally and mentally.” - Tom Glynn-Carney (actor who plays Aegon II)
The reason book fans are mad about the Jace Cregen thing. You literally cover it in the next section. We waste time instead of expanding on the time in Winterfell that literally sets up Jon Snow. But no we totally needed another Alicent/Rhaenyra talking over the same points. It's wasted time when they covered such a short period of time as is.
forcing the Rhaenyra and Alicent conversation scenes was incredibly dumb, I hate the sept one more despite the conversation and acting being well done because of the fact that Rhaenyra flashes a knife to her and doesn't get seized and just walks out untouched after threatening Alicent. but the second one despite being equally foolish MIGHT have worked if they didn't show us Larys and Aegon leaving King's Landing, and instead showed us their last conversation being Larys suggesting for Aegon to leave and Aegon continuing to be against it. then without us seeing them leave at least non-book readers would be able to wonder if Aegon would be there or not, but they ruined that minimal open question by showing us him leaving with Larys quick question though, how does the Jace Cregan Winterfell part set up Jon Snow? I don't remember it's been a long time since I read the books
D&D ruined The White Walkers, Jon Snow, Daenerys, Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei, etc with their trash S8. Martin also is to blame for not finishing the book continuity for the tv series continuity to take inspiration from.
@@LuisSierra42 obviously a good book. But George has taken too long and hasn’t started working yet. There’s a difference between taking your time and procrastinating.
@@ParkerCS2 I'm with you on him taking too long but "hasn't started working yet" clearly isn't true when there's literally chapters from Winds already released and available to read on the internet. and he's at least claimed to be "75% finished" whether you believe it or not
Ngl I'm a bit tired of reading that "Season 8 ruined this and that", like, a lot of problems with the writing of characters and plots in GoT started way before. After Season 4 it already started to show cracks, a season later the whole thing was already half way deep a sinkhole. By the time we got to season 7, the plot and characters were just on auto pilot. I think we only talk about season 8 being terrible particularly because well, it's the end, and it's much easier to see how botched of an ending it was. To get back on topic, yeah it's really a shame that the ending of GoT and particularly how it treated the Long Night, the litteral climax of the story, definitely leaves a sour taste when it comes to referencing this coming events in HotD. While prophecies not panning out how anybody expected is an ASOIF staple...yeah that one's rough man.
1. I am so glad to hear a reviewer give props to Tom GC. He (to me) did the best acting of the season overall. 2. I totally agree regarding the small details you mentioned- the showing not telling - that a few of the actors are delivering. These are the actors choices sometimes (maybe) or at least no dialogue moments that were scripted but that the Director highlighted well. The look Otto had when Alicent and Criston arrived moments after each other to the small council meeting. The way Aegon looks at Jahaerys during the small council meeting. The crying scene in episode two when Aegon had fallen to pieces after the murder of his son but getting no consolation from Alicent right after Alicent was with her father and Otto did not want to be the ear to Alicent when she needed to offload the weight of her “sin” with Cole. These are such beautiful moments of pathos. Episode 2 is actually my favorite episode of the season because there was a great deal to unpack in the acting alone. If only the episodes to follow could have continued in that vein. Alas… 3. There was so much wrong with this season to me that can’t be written off by the condensing of the season to 8 eps. It’s driving me crazy that so many are giving a pass due to that. The problem is in how the story unfolded with the show book divergence after episode 2. I had issues with some of the actors choices as well as some of the writers and directors choices. I don’t like what they have done with Haleanas character. I don’t like how they have under developed several characters on the show while giving them a lot of screen time. I don’t think the Daemon visions needed to span across 8 episodes(though I liked the idea of them I did not like the execution and the intention behind them was a bit off(in my opinion) They could have worked better if they didn’t intend to make the final vision the reason for Daemons turning point. I don’t like what they have done with Rhaenyra at all. I mean so much waste of opportunity to explore grief, a sense of betrayal and their impact. 4. The way season 1 built up to so much and planted many seeds for them to be left unwatered… The Corlys Rhaenyra dynamic should have been full of more push pull. The absentee fatter vibe between Daemon and his daughters should have been explored more. (Especially if they are merging nettles with Rhaena) There is so much more I can say - but this comment is already too long Edit: I got to say I also agree with the reason why Rhaenys went back to finish the job in your summation I felt the same And I agree the cinematography and music score of episode 4 was amazing I actually just go back on a regular basis to watch the lead up to the dragon fights so I can listen to the soundtrack. I also love the tender moment between Aegon and Sunfyre as they prepare to head off to war
We can agree to disagree and I respect your opinions on a lot of the takes, but I don't agree with telling book readers to just go and read the books if they don't agree with weird ass changes in the show. Everyone understands that things will change during adaptations but them making the greens the villains and blacks the good guys is just a disservice to what GoT is about. And 4 seasons isn't enough to cover the entire Fire and Blood story without cutting over half the book. And last, the reason why most people online are saying a lot of the stuff they chose to focus on was wasted time is because NEWS FLASH, we only have 4 seasons and 8 episodes to work with to complete this story. I think people would have liked a battle in place of those boring scenes of Alicent swimming in a lake or spending time showing the white walkers. The reality is that most people didnt come to this show to be reminded how badly the original show ended. We came for the family infighting, the chaos that threw the realm into, and of course the dragons. But 8 eps a season, 2 years to make, and the best we can get is some prophecy scenes, emoting, kissing scenes, etc, it just leaves people feeling bad. If this was going to be a 10 season thing, then yeah they have the luxury of focusing on that stuff, but with only 4 seasons, you dont have the luxury to "waste time".
Yes, I commented similar things as I didn't care for that take either about book readers. This show could've came to life so much better than what was just written down in the books, and they disappointed me w/where they went w/the plot and how they executed it too. Especially the unnecessary kissing scenes that didn't add to the story at all or Tyland mud wrestling in Tyrosh in the finale. They could've handled this story so much better than they did and 8 episodes aren't enough for any season. It's annoying that HBO didn't give them enough money either for all the dragon scenes as they chose to do this show knowing it would take a lot of well done CGI for this to work! They already flopped on season 2 due to cutting the battle of the Gullet and not having that needed money.
Yeah I Agree 100% with your comment. I think this reviewers take away is no big battle= people think its a bad show. When season 1 had much acclaim and had almost no battles. They had great characters and setups and payoffs. This season felt like too much conversations in rooms that ultimately amounted to no action or consequences (atleast not yet). With entire episodes dedicated to maybe one moment that will stick in peoples minds. Where as the OG game of thrones even the most minor of conversations and interactions felt meaningful. With 2 seasons left and 2 year breaks between seasons meaning people will have to wait about 3-4 years to complete the show, 7-8 years of keeping up with it. So it is a disservice to the fans to get what it ultimately a setup season when everyone assumed season 1 was a setup season.
The changes especially annoy me because a book like this leaves a lot of room for the show to use their own interpretations and freedom to flesh out the characters and their pov. But to then feel the need to just change the actual story is disrespectful to the source material (what, do they think they're better than GRRM?), kind of pointless (why even bother making it a HOAD), and is actually a worse story
Yeah like he's pretending like the show isn't being made because people enjoyed the book. If you change it and people don't enjoy it anymore how are they in the wrong?
And.. that's supposed to be a positive? Let me remind you that we didn't start with the final season of GOT either, but had a couple of other bad seasons leading up to it.. so.. yeah.
@@gordonneverdies Exactly. And while HotD season 2 isn't GoT season 8 level of bad, the writing is already comparable to season 5 -7, which isn't a good sign at all.
@@wickdaline8668 'could get better from there.' That's what most of us in denial thought the last time, until the final credits rolled lol I will keep my expectations very low, unless I see a drastric change, like Sara Hess leaving the team. She's the embodiment of bad GoT writing in HotD.
I am not one of those people who want action every episode and I agree the best of Game of Thrones were always the dialogue and the characters. However, House of the Dragon is about a civil war which has A LOT of battles and big events. Season 1 did a great job setting things up and we should have had total war starting this season. Season 2 only consists of 20 pages from the book and now the remaining two seasons have a lot to cover. If the Budget only allowed them 2 big dragon sequences (The Battle at Rook’s Rest and The Red Sowing) then I don’t know how they will have enough money to adapt other huge dragon battles like the Battle of the Gullet, God’s Eye, 1&2 Tumbleton, Storming of the Dragon Pit, etc. And this really worries me. Hope they don’t make them off screen like the Battle of The Burning Mill and actually show us these events. In the end of the day this show is about a brutal civil war between dragons that nearly destroyed the Targaryen dynasty, not about two childhood friends trying to make peace.
there were tons of problems in season 1 as well, but it also had many good moments..i mean Rhaenys in the dragon pit, the whole cole killing joffrey plotline, Laenor's fake death..these moments were as bad as Rhaenyra undercover nun or s2 Alicent
Joffrey was killed by Cole in the book, he made it look like an accident (in a joust) but it was definitely intentional. Most likely he did it to hurt Laenor who has just been married to Rhaenyra (and Cole was rejected by her). It made no sense the way it was depicted in the show, we don't even know what Joffrey did/say to provoke Cole (possibly blackmailed him) and it was completely out of character for a kingsguard to act like this, not to mention that he got away with it like nothing happened.
The amount of missteps, underdeveloped characters, and plot holes in Season 2 was downright shameful. Corlys was basically waddling onscreen doing nothing for the whole runtime, and teleporting between far away areas is back…
People saying it's season 8 is mad but I completely understand if someone compared it to season 5. I think people are going to be less forgiving because of what happened with GoT. And also just generally people's confidence in Hollywood to produce good stories is so shattered that _any_ sign of incompetence is viewed as the beginning of the end.
So basically title is clickbait. Its 32m of you saying how great the show is and insulting the people who werent happy with it. You say people "Just want dragons and action" and compare it with the early seasons of GOT, when in reality, things were actually happening on GOT early seasons,even when there were no giant battles. Here,we just have Rhaenyra saying that she does not want to kill anyone for 87th time and Alicent Hightower flipping her entire character motivation overnight. Character who betrayed her best friend, went against the will of her late husband,the King, and kicked off the entire war just doesnt care about it all out of the blue. And Rhaenyra's ridiculous and goofy infiltration of King's Landing is also a good thing now? You are a clown,dude. Here's your red nose.
I’m still trying to find anyone saying they wanted 100 percent it to be exactly like the book. If anyone can point me to people saying that, I would appreciate it.
@@SERGIO-rr8ig lol but you can't have it be b/c even in the book there's 3 versions of everything! I think the OP's point was most people just want a good story! This wasn't.
I absolutely hate people who say "book is book and show is show". Even GRRM himself called out such people in his blog. Far worst are those who say F&B written from different perspectives so different writing is fine. That's ridiculous. Stories of American Civil War were written from many perspectives but we know core aspects of what happened. Heck, we know what happened with Nepolean Bonapart or Julius Caeser. Similarly, all F&B about Dance of Dragons war stories are RIGHT. Wherever we see different perspectives, the book clearly mentions them. Show must be different in a certain way, but the core aspects of story must not be changed. HotD biggest mistake is making all women being anti-war pacifist when war was absolutely necessary. Show based whole narrative underneath the facade of Rhaneyra Alicent "friendship" when they should've arch-nemesis. You think a real person would be friends with someone whose son gauges out eye of your son? heck no. Show was ruined as soon as Rhnyra-Ali patched up and became friends in S1Ep8. Then we have S2Ep3 was absolutely ridiculous. We have Rhaenys who tells Rhaenyra that she can meet Alicent and stop war. like..HOW THE F?? what does Rhanys think thats gonna happen? Show had great moments but the friendship factor between women from S1Ep8 onwards ruined it.
I just can’t believe they chose a story about the Targaryen civil war KEY WORD- WAR to try and show how all women are peaceful & don’t want war??? Like huh? It’s bizarre. It’s kinda stupid the more I sit & think about it. And the fact that they refuse to drop this stupid friendship that lasted all for 5 episodes is a major red flag. Next, they’re gonna be afraid to kill off characters.
The unreliable narrator argument is valid when it comes to things that happened behind closed doors, in private, especially in the Red Keep. For instance, what exactly happened between Rhaenyra and Criston Cole. Even in the book it is stated that we will never know what was said and done to make Cole turn on her. But when it comes to battles, alliances, killings and things that happened in front of witnesses, it's not up to interpretation. It's just writers inserting their ideas, like Rhaenys in the dragon pit "being cool".
@@kateris1976 Rhaenyra-Criston Cole story had only 2 different stories. 1. According to Septon Eustace, Criston slipped into Rhaenyra's bedchamber to confess his love, and asked her to flee to the free cities. But Rhaenyra said NO which resulted in CC becoming a Greens' loyalist. 2. According to Mushroom, however, it was Rhaenyra who tried to seduce Criston but her attempts were unsuccessful. Criston was chaste and honorable. Young Rhaenyra and Laenor tried to tag team and ruin Criston Cole's reputation and life. CC got upset and tried to kill himself but Alicent stopped and then CC became Greens' loyalist. I still believe if the showrunners went with second option, story would have been much more nuanced and Criston's character would have been far better in show than what it is now. It would make you root for an honorable kingsguard and also makes Rhanyra/Blacks bad. It balances the evil. Show rn is way too Black oriented. Mushroom's tale is also logical (that's rare but i think he speaking truth this time) because there is just no fkin way that a kingsuard from lowest of low house of the realm would ever think that heir to throne princess Rhaenyra would elope with him. It just makes Criston absolute dumbfk. I just never believed Septon Eustace's version of Rhnyra-Cole story while reading book but show included that stupidity!!
@@kedrprao On the other hand, I find it too far fetched for Cole to hate Rhaenyra so much for throwing herself at him. Yes, she didn't care about his honor and took advantage of her status, but still, would that make someone kill people and help start a war? As for the attempted suicide, I don't think there was any mention in the book, this was a show invention (like they changed Joffrey's death).
@@kateris1976 Criston Cole attempting suicide isn't mentioned in the book. I am js how it would make sense for an HONORABLE knight to do something like that. Show Criston preaches honor but how tf running away from Westeros with Rhaenyra redeems you? You have already broken all the vows. CC is upset that he will just be a whore of Rhanyra so does that mean he thought that Rhanyra would marry him because she fxcked him once??? lmaoooo its so stupid. Just imagine knight of the kingguard being so fkin naive. It was pathetic.
Whatever man, you can have whatever opinion you want about book readers being upset about the departure from the books, but even though F&B is told from 3 different narrators, there are some rather large departures from the book that are ruining the show. The main one being that rhaenyra and alicent being friends. I can handle smaller inconsistencies and pass it off, but that one is so abhorrent that it isn't cutting it for me. It fundamentally changes the story and all 3 narrators agree that they were enemies. The ONLY time they were friendly/cordial with each other was the dinner before Viserys died.
I think you’re misunderstanding why people are angry. It’s not because the show is being unfaithful to the book. It’s because season 2 is retconing every character from their season 1 arcs. Where is rapist Aegon? Vengeful Alicent? Enraged Rhaenyra? Strategic impulsive yet dutiful Daemon? This is what was ruined. And also 2 story changes actually do matter: replacing Rhaena with nettles and killing sunfyre ruin the ending. Might as well roll credits at this point. And regarding action, there are many battles in the book, most of which are important. We’re at war. Show them. Many episodes in season 2 could’ve been condensed -there is a lot of fluff where nothing is happening. They could’ve had the gullet and kings landing invasion fit in this season. Each battle also doesn’t need to be long-hell most battles on GOT and HOTD last less than 10 minutes in total. When people say they want D&D back, it’s because when there was book material they delivered. Condal and Reiss had a completed story and they butchered it-so much so that Martin himself wrote a blog implying how angry he was about the Rhaena nettles change.
I seriously disagree with you that Aegon's s1 arc was retconned. He committed r*pe not really out of malice but out of apathy towards his position in life caused by the failure of his parents to raise him. So when he finally gets the attention he's craved for so long during his coronation, he latches on to it, and tries to become a king that is loved by his people. Moreover, Rhaenyra is less enraged than she is depressed by Luke's death in the book, which is what allows Jace to take charge. It isn't until another character's death that enraged Rhaenyra really emerges. And I doubt Sunfyre is dead. Aegon just seems to think he is.
@@ComicRaptor8850 No in season 1 the show really wanted us to hate Aegon and he also watched kids in the fighting pits, one was one of his bastards! You can't explain that away as anything other than he was a very dark sadistic person already by that time, and then suddenly make him into this naïve, sympathetic character wanting to please the people all of the sudden!. You could show the conflict b/t him and his mom and the way she sucked at showing love to him, but you still gotta show his outward character consistently. The show isn't handling Alicent, Rhaenyra, Daemon or even Alys Rivers consistently enough. If they wanted to show some conflicting ways of characters behaving differently in one place than from another, they needed more scenes to do that well. They rushed thru season 1 when I think that should've been 2 seasons so we could bond w/the characters more and see all of their intricate relatonships more before killing off Harwin and Leana and Leonor. Then in season 2 they slowed down everything and did indeed reset the main characters after the end of season 1 was preparing us for all out war. Just badly executed in so many ways that ensures this will never be early GOT.
You can defend it all day but it’s on par with S7 of GOT and just like that season many people thought it was still a good show and defended things that made no sense in the writing. I was one of those defenders until S8 arrived. We all see the writing on the wall and they can’t fool us this time. It’s only going to get worse from here
We spent 8 years invested in the original series, basically to have it thrown back in our faces. People are more critical up front, because we want the show runners to take it seriously. We don't want our time and attention wasted again. Thats why people are extra critical. They are anxious and distrustful, and they have every right to be. I don't agree with people sending Criston Cole's actor threats and things, I think thats where it gets too obsessive. But it also shows how good of an actor he is. The same thing happened to Joffrey's actor, he played it so well that people hated him in real life. I think anyone who wants to make a GOT project needs to understand that this fandom will hold their feet to the fire, in defense of their favorite fantasy world
I agree! I didnt even want to watch HOTD at first bc of what happened to GOT. Some of my friends still wont touch it tbh! And I did love the season but the finale gave me GOT flashbacks. It was not comparable at all, its actually a good episode, but my head was going “omg are we just being played again?” 😢
The way you say “ get over it” rubs me the wrong way and is irking. I and many others even in social media stressed it wasn’t “muh no action”. I thought the same this season was dull compared to season 1 & disappointing after waiting so damn long for this.
But let's be real overall the characters and narrative are not as strong and certainly not as focused as season 1, a thousand great shots of dragons or castles or battles doesn't change that fact And in terms of the dissappointed anger online look at it like this man the 8 episodes format meant we didn't get an ending, the last shot of season 1 Rhaenyra looking into the camera with hate - does nothing most season and we don't get a conflict (I still think it's a good show btw) but people get angry when you promise something then don't deliver
Being slow was never the criticism but it being repetitive was the criticism. Never forget we just got a movie called Oppenheimer, i hope you have heard about it, but it almost grossed a billion and most of it was just people talking. So being slow is a silly criticism.
Comparing HoTD to Oppenheimer is a ridiculous comparison. Most people knew what they were walking into with Oppenheimer, nobody walked into that movie expecting non stop action. People walked into HoTD expecting action akin to the shift of genre version of Game of Thrones' later seasons. Acting like the criticism of the show was never it being slow, but because it was repetitive is also just objectively untrue. The continuous comments I've recieved on my GoT videos throughout the run had a common through line every single time... slow. The discussion is more nuanced than you're making it out to be and its just proving my point surrounding the discourse of the show perfectly.
This is not a good comparison man. There are different expectation for each titles u mention. And to be a smart showrunner is to understand what your core audience wants. Movie audience and tv's are different
@@movieoverload Read again carefully, I'm not comparing those, I'm explaining how "being slow" is a very silly criticism instead it being repetitive is a more valid criticism. My first language is not english so it must've been wrongly translated but about it being repetitive, I still stand by that opinion.
@@movieoverload It's really about what you think "being slow" means... If a scene feels repetitive and the story is not moving forward, is that being slow? Or is it the slow movement of the flow of the story.
Who is praising the season lol I think people are only saying it’s a little bad/really bad/only the second half is bad/or excusing how bad it is for the 8 episode length.
Jaehaerys was interduced in ep1 and everyone forgot he existed by ep4 They made the Greens straight up villains while burying every single that was did by the blacks They turned Daemon into a boring one dimensional character Alicent has no character, she was telling Aegon he's the threat by living and now she just gave him up without reason, she also doesn't act like her grandson was chopped by Rhaenyra They're filling episodes with pointless scenes like the repetitive visions in Harrenhall, mud wrestling, Alicent taking a lake shower, the Rhaena absolutely bad actor chasing a dragon in the mountains while wearing a dress Even the action has some things that don't make sense, why did Vhagar teleport behind a castle she's clearly bigger than? The two meetings between Rhaenyra and Alicent are pointless, these two are the definition of boring incompetent one dimensional characters
What a stupid point on the books. If you want to change so many things from the book, why even adapt it? If you cant stay faithfull, then write your own story. Dont drag others property into it. GRRM himself made comment on how 99.99% of the time, it goes wrong when writers try to inject their own agenda into an adaptation. The core of the story should stay the same. The reason why the book was succesfull in the first place, is because of it's written that way. Why try to fix something that isn't broken, and then break it in the process? And calling the critiques stupid for pointing out plotholes and inconsistencies? Ignoring all the rational complaints and focusing only on the ragebaits?
We dont need action set pieces to have a good show, GOT 1-4 was goated and had a handful battles - with that said s2 of HOTD was ass because the characters are being nonsensical and major events are just being forgotten. Alicent chooses Rhaenera over her family for what? Lesbian fanfic at best. "son for a son" headass like it wasnt already repaid with B&C. They never mention B&C - Haelena is already over it after half an episode, Lucerys dying didnt ignite a fire under anyone apparently and evidently HBO cant have Rhae do anything slightly bad. Also stop shoving all this ASOIAF prophecy shit, ARYA was the one who ended the long night not a targaeryn and it was all to have BRAN be king like wtf you would think they would try to distance themselves from that garbage but leaning into it makes it worse. Can these characters just do shit for the sole reason of ambition instead of trying to paint them as misunderstood/fighting for something bigger. It wasnt s8 garbage and had some good scenes (mostly green centric episodes) but lets not criticize the fandom for calling out this garbage writing and pacing.
hopefully they listen to the more insightful fans and stop with the prophecy stuff going forward, and hopefully don't have it in the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms show coming out
I agree with you, just one minor thing; Luke's death didn't ignite a fire under Rhaenyra in the book either; instead she became super depressed which caused Jace to take command of the blacks' cause.
Pacing issues, characters interacting with each other in odd ways or not at all, and a few poorly thought out changes from source material dragged this season down. It still was pretty solid and miles better than seasons 7-8 of Thrones. They best not screw up season 3, and im honestly worried about them doing thr Dance justice in just two more seasons, they best be 10 episodes each.
Concerning your book purist rant, no one is asking for a 100% page to screen perfect adaptation. The Jace-Cregan stuff is small nonsense that doesnt matter. You know whats a problem, though? Fundamentally changing Rhaenyra and Alicent as characters, altering their motivations, temperment, and personalities, removing Nettles, having Rhaena abandon her family. These things should not really be swept under the rug of "oh you cant perfectly adapt everything." Thats cope.
I think people are still scarred by got s8 and have likely gotten heated worrying hotd could fall victim to the same terrible choices. I really hope the team puts their foot down with the studio and the writers reach out for help if they need it
Although your review has made me see some good things I missed, there are a couple of thing I can't ignore: 1) I won't say this season was worse than season 8 of Game of Thrones, but it was less entertaining and memorable in my opinion. 2) There is no denying that it's leaning pretty heavily into the "woman / minority good, white males bad" by portraying every white male as a power hungry warmonger and the women being the ones being the level headed ones and the caring ones. Examples: Rhaenyra trying to make peace with the ones that murdered her son and stole her crown and shutting down any idea of escalating to full on war; or Misarya not being involved in the Blood and Cheese incident when she was the one to make it happen (by the way, making it look like Daemon doesn't want to face Aemond was a severe disrespect to the character).
You said most people are for dragon absolutely wrong have you seen the rating of S1 tgere were no dragons in ep8 or most of the episodes no dragon on dragon battle and s1 was great . Here despite the presence of dragons the story feels bad
Everything about season 2 is amazing except the writing. And for people to act like critics just want loud bangs and action is disingenuous. It lets the writers off the hook too easily. Even with 8 episodes the writers could've done better.
People never talk about the acting of the actor who played Otto in the 2nd episode of this season, its oscar worthy (i mean better than rdj in Oppenheimer tbh)
Oh, he was the reason I got Max. Once I saw: “Thoughtless, feckless, self-indulgent” I was like: I gotta get on this show. Then, disappears for almost 6 episodes.🤯
my complaint with this season is that it started off really strong and got bad as it went on up to the finale, which is why the last two episodes felt so disappointing
I see a lot of people saying "oh people didn't like the finale because they want dragons fighting" and that's not it. In my opinion, the best episode of the season was the one after blood and cheese, when Criston sent the twin to kill rhaenyra and Otto left. We didn't need five cuts of Rhaena running up a hill searching for a dragon in a season finale, or an introduction of a new character, something that should've been kept to S03E01. Something that also annoyed me so much, as a defender of the kiss between Rhaenyra and Mysaria was how they acted like nothing happened after it. If you're gonna include that scene, it should have an impact in the characters. After Otto left the season became hollow and full of filler. I also don't like the prophecy and how it changed Daemon's priorities, I don't think it fits his character to be concerned with something that'll happen generations after him and it was just fanservice. I don't like the idea that everything is written so they just have to go along with what destiny has planned, it makes the character's actions and choices feel meaningless. anyway thats my rant
This is where I always say people are in echo chambers of their own making . Because I haven’t heard anywhere near the hate that you’re describing. I’ve seen people hate it think it was okay and some love it . But nothing like you’re saying . And those people your hearing complain is just the very loud minority that is always trying to get attention by screaming like children. They don’t speak for the majority
Book readers complained about the first 3 or 4 seasons of GoT as it was originally released, then later came to appreciate them after the end… remembering that the majority of the GoT audience binged it through the first 4 or 5 seasons so I guess some patience is needed hoping that the execs and production can finish better for HotD!
I don’t think many are complaining there weren’t enough battles or action. It’s the character development, or lack there of. The horrible pacing. The repeated dialogue of the blacks. The fact that they skip parts that are very important and interesting from the books to give us repeat scenes. The lack of agency Rhaenyra and Allicent have. Stop trying to same the fandom is mad bc no battles. Such a cop out.
@@movieoverload 😉 Sure I did. It was all part of your master plan. Anyways, a large portion of the fandom are mad at HBO for wasting their time. Not only that, they're expecting us to wait 2 years after a lackluster, boring season. If HOTD season 2 was delayed an extra year, so be it. People would've understood after the strikes, but this was the wrong decision. 10 episodes was the way to go. I believe this will hurt the reputation of the show.
@@movieoverloadthis was a 8 episode season that was written as a 10 episode season that was missing the last two episodes like episode 8 was literally EPISODE 8 not episode 10. I think your bias is showing, this was not a good adaptation of the books either and it certainly wasn’t a good season on its own. Will season 3 save it? Possibly, but it shouldn’t have had to. That’s the point.
17:09 the problem with this excuse/explanation about “people forgetting Fire & Blood is told from multiple perspectives” is that show “only people” don’t know this. Only book readers do. I haven’t read the book but I do know this from watching videos by you and others. So if you look at it from that point of view, the show is flawed tremendously. Love your videos, but I felt this was important to point out. As a “show only” viewer but with knowledge of how the story goes in the book, the show does do a poor job of writing, whether it be motivations of characters, character flip flops from scene to scene / episode to episode (I.e Rhaynera & Alicent)
Well, its true that ASOIAF is not about dragons, but this is not ASOIAF. This is The Dance of Dragons. Like, it's in the name. Still though. I'm not in it for the dragon even though I love the dragons, and obviously enjoying the dragons. I'm in it for the story, drama, politics, crimes, war, everything that makes this world what it is.
While I agree with you on this, the events of Dance of the Dragons, by its nature, is built by dragons and their riders. Only a few instances don’t contain heavy influences from dragons. The North joining the blacks is one of them. Therefore the dragons NEED to be a very large part of the show.
All I heard what was a bunch of blah blah this season was amazing blah blah blah. This season was crap. You ask why? If you can't keep the casual audience entertained then your not doing a great of a job as you should. I'm a casual fan of game of thrones and I loved it made me actually look forward to watch every day. House of thrones I just watch it to get it over with. That's not good and the only ones defending this boring shit of season are fan boys and I get that's koo but if u wanna have large amount of viewers and be the talk of the town you have to be entertaining!!! Not here for a social studies project
#BlameHBO for cutting last 2 Episodes because of "budget reasons" And blame the writers strike. Combined with the fact Season 2 needed to be released this year and not next i am happy to have gotten it this year. There will be 4 Seasons total likely Season 3 and 4 each 8 Episodes you guessed it budget reasons from HBO. I hope HBO will fix that nonesense and give will give us 20 more amazing Episodes til finish. There were writing problems but the future looks better than season 2, i'd be proud if season 1 writing would be for Season 3 and 4. So I hope you Guys stay together as Fans of good writing and phenomenal action that will certainly await us.
Hands down one of the most nuanced and balanced commentary on the season I've seen. Some of the discourse has really been disturbing and frustrating to observe.
I agree. There's some less-than-stellar and questionable choices in it, but there's also some really good stuff. It pains me that some people are just so willing to trash it in its entirety. I'm willing to hold off on final judgement until we see season 3 and see if they listen to viewer's (constructive) complaints.
Being a fan of both the book and the show, season 1 had levels of resurgence that made season 2 so exciting to look forward to, but then it totally fell flat on its face. It wasn’t a question of character development for me, I understood that. It was just generally bad screenwriting and directing, it wasn’t done GOOD enough.
the hate for this season is overblown, but a lot of the criticism for the second half of the season i understand. if they kept a 10 episode structure, added payoff for the buildup, couldve been better. after episodes 1-4 of this season i really thought this season would be incredible.
The problem is not the lack of battles or dragons, the dialogues weren’t that good. Even compared to season 1. Aegon, Otto, Larys yes, absolutely amazing, but everyone else just sucks
This season was 10/10 at its best, and 1/10 at its worst… I found myself both annoyed and amazed… but the season finale just left a sour taste in my mouth
How do you end season 1 with *THAT* shot of Rhaenyra turning angrily to the camera only to end up making 95% of the next season about her doing everything she can to prevent a war from happening?
hey man. great essay, i appreciate the in depth analysis, and this is the first s2 video analysis i clicked on because the thumbnail is not straight up "why s2 is garbage" or "why s2 is perfect for real game of throne lovers". That's just bs, there's good and bad and the bad really is mostly in the last episode. I agree with most of the things you said, but i would put a 6/10 (-1) for the following reasons : - I understand that given the nature of geography, the lower number of characters and the dragons, we didn't see almost any traveling process for the characters. But i think they had few good occasions, first it looks like criston cole and gwayne have a really good dynamic and i would've appreciated seeing more of them. Also, (SPOILERS AHEAD) knowing full well Jace's fate i would really have appreciated punchier dialogue and a bit more time with the starks and the guys at the twins. - Also, one of the thing that made the first season truly stand out to me was that love scene with young rhaenyra and criston cole, which was one of the most beautifully crafted scenes i had ever seen, with the trembling candle lights, the slow acting and the very deep cello melody by Ramin Djawadi. I would have hoped that they could replicate this kind of scene, maybe between corlys and rhaenys before she dies at rook's rest. These are the moments in the universe of ASOIAF where viewers can witness pure poetry. Sadly it didn't happen this season.. - Ultimately the unfunny scene with the pirate captain in the finale. I wonder why they seem to not be able to write powerful women as they did in GoT (Yara, Daenerys and Daario's dynamic, Ygrid in some ways..). It was just kind of cringe sadly, it reminded me of GoT's Euron. And as you said, the last scene between Rhaenyra and Alicent too which made 0 sense to me and I also found as a result that the performance was bad, because there is too much whining and i feel it really undermined Alicent's toughness, with what should be a very strong sense of motherhood akin to Cersei's. Thanks for reading, (english is not my mother tongue so pls don't mind the weird formulations) and I'm glad i clicked on this video !
In regards to your last point about feeling ashamed to be a part of this fandom when seeing how childish the whiners can get online I do think social media algorithms promoting negative content over positive is a contributing factor. It's nice to see a take here that is actually balanced and fair.
I don’t know why the writers/producers have to mess with a simple winning formula. 70% politics/conversation, 30% action, episode 9 a banger, episode 10 a cliffhanger, great dialogue, no rushing or teleporting. Me personally I enjoyed the second season, just felt shortchanged that I wasn’t rewarded with the climatic action, battle scenes that I thought the endless politics was leading to. Thought it looked amazing.
What I like so much in this show is that you forget who started and who's right and wrong. Both sides are very nuanced and the conflict is so intricate
@@ningguanq5106The same issues... Season 7 had shallow character arcs just like here. Season 7 sacrificed writing on the table of shock value just like here... The only difference is season 7 was not boring and dragged.
I calculated. For the average speed of the dragon, it would take 3 to 4 hours to travel from Dragonstone to King's Landing or vice versa, so the scene in 7th episode does make sense but in the 3rd episode, when rhynaerya reaches in king's landing, it would take anywhere from 2-3 days to reach there so the criticism is still valid (Also a random thought, i wonder the atmosphere when they would just stop to take break in the middle of the sea to rest or eat. How do they poop? Isn't it very not ethical for the queen of black to poop in front of the boat rider? Just random thoughts)
The whole rise of Rhaenyra seems too gifted to me.. what has she ever suffered, what did she ever have to do to become Queen, how did she earn her right to be Queen ? No, she was the 'chosen' one, the position of queen 'fell' into her lap, she has not gone through a painful story arc to become skilled in any way (like we clearly saw with Daenarys) to become a leader, she has not managed to align any houses to her cause or raise an army in her name (Daemon did that). Her only skill appears to be looking angry at the horizon. Daemon's character was slaughtered this season 02, cowtowing to everyone he meets and/or opposes him.. going to the Riverlands and being turned the back on by a faction that refused to follow his cause.. with that humiliating shot of him and his dragon behind the faction lord riding away.. it was pityful. Question remains... what has Rhaenyra ever achieved to become the queen ? .. and the answer is a shocking nothing. All she did was marry and cheat on her husband...
I appreciate when a show is written with re-watch value in mind (which I think HOTD is trying to do). I can't speak for everyone, but when rewatching a show you catch things you missed the first time, and definitely appreciate the slower moments. I bet a lot of viewers are going to miss characters like Damond, and I think people may grow to like season two, and how much time we spent with him. Appreciate the slower moments, because when the show is over, it's over.
Damian was in Harrenhall for half the season because the show runners needed to make the audience understand his frustrations. It took a lot of time,but it was a P.O.V. I liked it.
warner brothers (parent company of hbo) cut the budget so hbo had to improvise, and since there was a strike the writters couldnt be directly involved in changing the script. so it was up to the actors, directors ect to try and fix the script. its not hbo its a corporate thing
My biggest issue is the major passing differences between season 1 and 2. Season 1 you are getting 10 year time jumps every couple of episodes and season 2 feels like only a month to 2 months have passed. If season 2 was going to be this drawn out I would have much rather had more time in the events of season 1. Because there were so many time jumps in season 1 we missed out on a lot of relationship building between Alicent's kids amongst themselves and with their half sister as well as between Rhaenyra's kids and their Cousins/step siblings/fiances.
I honestly really liked Season 2, and appreciate all the dialogue, drama, alliance forging and Rook's Rest. I also really like how Aegon became such a fan favorite and iconic character, as I do believe he is a pretty complex and interesting character!
This is probably the most on point review for it I've seen yet! This covers not just the good and bad of the season perfectly - it also puts all this hate into it's place. I've been verbally attacked for my takes on it from both camps who love and who hate it... It's great to see that there still some fans out there that actually still use their brain. Also I'm really happy how this video looks at the writing flaws because it refers to the ones that exist but there's no unnecessary bashing of other scenes just because you want it to be bad, like so many others seemingly do.
This season felt as it was on autopilot, maybe because of the success of the first season. But all scenes felt slow and sluggish, even the battle of Rooks Rest. Blood and Cheese was an afterthought. Yes, I give you that it is no way near the last seasons of GoT, but this was a downgrade of what they delivered in the first season.
7/10 is extremely kind Like how many awkward driftmark convos do you need to show that alyn doesnt like/trust corlys when the cutting of his hair was more powerful than all those previous scenes. We get it rhaena wants a dragon, patriarchy is bad, larys is finessing aegon I get the conversations in elegant rooms point But spending time with the same characters over and over again hammering home the same points just aint it Show dont tell!! Make it meaningful!!
You can tell that they had set up for a 10 episode season and got 2 episodes cut mid production. They were making it during the writers stike so they couldn't rewrite it. Also the fact that i waited 2 years between seasons. Why? Game of thrones only took a year between seasons. Also to be fair to daemon, in the show we see that he clearly tells blood and cheese to kill Aemond. We even see them searching for Aemond. We also did see B&C asking what should they do if they cant find him, then Daemon doesnt say anything, then it cuts to the next scene. We never got an on screen conformation that he did sanction B&C killing Jahharis. Daemon even denies giving the order and seems to be genuine, but because its Daemon, it is entirely plausible for him to given the order. Everyone thinks he did it, but he could be entirely innocent. Which would also explain him being pissed off.
Season needed those 2 extra episodes to end properly. If that had been the case you wouldn't see half the criticism. Also trying to tie this show to the Long Night (and GoT s6 to s8) is a big mistake. They should ignora at stay away from that as much as possible, but here we are. Also Alicent was never this big a deal in the source material. The fact that we have to spend this much time with her just doesn't make any sense and really drags the show in certain spots. From the moment Aegon is crowned it's him and Aemond vs Rhaenyra and Daemon. Everyone else is just supporting characters; Alicent included.
Why is no one mentioning the writers strike?? This is clearly the reason they had to cut the last 2 episodes & some of the writing this season was very “first draft” - they literally couldn’t do the required polishing because of the (totally justified) strike.
I keep seeing people comparing how Rhaenyra and Alicent respond to their eldest sons in distress and say it says so much about their character, but no one mentions the differences between the children's fathers and grandfathers. I feel like Rhaenyra and Harwin had some kind of real love and Aegon was conceived in coercion. Viserys should have kept his gross old hands off of Alicent, stealing his daughter's bosom friend and knocking her up over and over again is unforgivable. Stealing her youth and her future. Disgusting. Despite the secrecy, Rhaenyra and Harwin were on much more loving and mutual footing and they were raising them together, really, with Laenor being there and pretty cool also, and Alicent was alone (except for servants, which includes Cole as far as I'm concerned) taking care of a bunch of children and a dying old man. Also her dad was there for a while but he sold her to the dying old man, and her brother showed up but left right away and they don't really know each other. Does she have any women anywhere in her life?? Except her offspring? Anyway, as much as it isn't Aegon or Jace's fault what manner they were conceived in, that still forever impacts their relationship with their mothers. Rhaenyra wanted Jace, Alicent had Aegon thrust upon her. It still says a lot about their characters but I think that context is really important.
Come on, Allicent swimming in the lake was my all time best scene. And i don't think we got enough Deamon dream scenes. And i hope they keep tantalising us with another season of Deamon "is he a goody or a baddy" arcs.
Also I just got to the part where you say Alicent begging Rhaenyra to run away together was an unnecessary scene!? Did Rhaenyra kissing Mysaria not make it clear how much Rhaenyra and Alicent are each other's first and greatest loves? Whether they ever kiss or not, which is absolutely what I thought they were setting us up for in the early season one episode where they were in the garden with Rhaenyra's head in Alicent's lap, dreaming of flying away together on a dragon and eating cake. If they had done it back then they could have had a happy ending, maybe, together, before the men in their lives did their best to use them up and break them apart.
Btw, I am pretty sure they said those last episodes (9 and 10) had to be cut for budgetary reasons….crazy how after the acquisition they are penny pinching on big time shows like this that have the potential to suck in large swaths of fans.
The part were Damon tripped balls in Haron Hall like five times.....that whole thing was literally my favorite part of season two, it was awesome. Damon is my favorite character, and when he comes out the other end of those ghost trips speaking such smooth Valerian omfg so good. The worst part was that they spent two entire years making eight episodes, like what in the fuck. If they're spending too much on dragons just cut one dragon scene and you can do like an hour of dialog scenes.
I watched episode 8 and then the next sunday, I checked on Max, and there wasn't an episode 9. What the hell waited another week thinking they were just padding for subscriptions. Nope, no new episode. Googled it and learned that episode 8 was the season finale. It would have been a great season if there were two more episodes.
I think that the writers attempted to make the story their own and force what they had setup and the source material into what they wanted. From the commentary I think its clear they wanted to have scenes between the Alicent and Rhaneyra and to make that happen they needed both these characters to be more sympathetic than they actually should be.
I've watched HotD without expectations and haven't read the books. I loved it. The only thing that bothered me was Deamon at Harrenhall until it was clear why it was needed. (Unlike Arya training to become a faceless and then only using it once) I was entertained every episode. I see no great mistakes or flaws. If people only watch this show because they expect big dragon wars, that's on them to be disappointed. I can't wait for the next season.
I think the reason most of us criticize this season as much as we do now is because we have to wait another 2 years every season. And it is just for 8 episodes.
There were issues, but the deviatioons from the books arent as brutal as some people claim... its been visually incredible, soundtrack was amazing, the dialogue was good, Daemon´s arc was great, the set design was incredible and the battle of Rook´s rest was outstanding
