OK, good. I've been like running all these expressions through my head and wondering if I've gotten them wrong 😄. Apparently what I think "out of sight, out of mind" means is completely different from the general consensus.
I am glad you talked just about this subject because I had the same “ohhh” moment when I fell in love. Until then, I thought that all the song lyrics, romantic films, etc, were just things people said to describe being fond of someone. I hadn’t realised that love was a whole new set of feelings. And so, yeah, it’s possible to hear people talk about a thing all one’s life and to think they are not actually talking literally.
The Best Analogy I can think of is: to think of Consciousness as a Programmer, and the Brain as a Computer. People with Aphantasia are Programming with 1s and 0s, while other people are using a Programming language that converts the 1s and 0s, into text/images. The Brain is basically taking information from the Memory Region to the Speaking Region, and the only Difference is how we Process the Information. You asked previously do we need Images to think? It's not that our Thinking is a product of the Images, The Images are a Product of our thinking. If we think: Where did I park my car? We instantly know where it is, just like you, however we get an Image or the best possible representation of the last memory we have of our car. I don't need to see a parking lot to know where my car is. But seeing it can spark new ideas like how did I park, what cars were next to it, how close is a building... It is important not to Confuse Aphantasia with Personalities. People with Different personalities think differently, while people with/out Aphantasia Process thoughts in a different way. I am not an Expert, but from what I have gathered on this topic, it seems to me that we just think with Extra steps. So Your thinking is Clearer and Faster, but we get additional information about the topic, weather we want to or not. What I am most interested is how do you think about things you do not know. If it's something I know well, I instantly know what someone's talking about, everything about it, and I can visualize it. I assume it is the same for you, without the visualization part, you just directly tap into the information. But if it's something I don't know, my brain just thinks of things Related to the term, or things that sound like it (visualizing them in the process), until I "remember" the term, or something I think is closely enough related to it, to ask if that is what they're referring to. We can only Visualize a Term based on how Recently, How often we use it, and how big of an impact it makes. All memories fade with time, even memories of our loved ones, if you don't have pictures of them, in time you won't be able to visualize them. I would love to know your thoughts about this, weather you agree or disagree.
I think that's a really great description. I totally agree. I think I'm just skipping the translation step in my mind as well, and all the rest of the process is the same. I tried using the binary example with my husband before, and he said it didn't really resonate with him, but I think it's very accurate. The thinking about new things is very interesting. I asked about it in my last video, and several people described what happened in their mind as being what you described. They would conjure images to create what was being described or around a similar word they knew. When I'm listening or reading something, no matter if it's brand new to me or known, I'm really not conscious of the thought process as it's getting absorbed in my mind. I assume I am making the same connections without the pictures, though, as I'll ask questions to clear things up and when everything falls into place, I'll get that a-ha moment. If something is too complex, and I can't wrap my head around it, I will just give up trying - but that's probably not uncommon. Perhaps when visualizers give up on a concept, it's more because they can't construct the image they need, though? I'm not sure.
This has given me much to think about. Regarding the basis of my own perception of ideas from a "visual" standpoint. I can turn mine (the visual part) on and off. Mostly it just does whatever. Anyway, Thanks.
@@quietmindinside4808 "Perhaps when visualizers give up on a concept, it's more because they can't construct the images they need?" I think that's the case sometimes, but not everything that I think about creates an image, and when I'm more interested in a concept, I'll delve into more abstract/auditory thought and leave behind the images. Disclaimer: I am below-average for visual imagination, and hyperphantasic for auditory imagination, so my thoughts are very, very auditory and my experience might not be the most representative of visualizers.
@@quietmindinside4808 I don't like the binary example because when coding binary it takes a ridiculous amount of time to write something, while with a higher-level programming language you are abstracting out the complexities of binary which allow you to write the same thing much, much faster, like orders of magnitude faster. This comparison makes it seem like non-visualizers are using a primitive form of thought, while the visualizers are using the higher-level more efficient form of thought.
"I see what you mean" to me is a metaphorical expression, the same way you understand it. Usually there is no specific thing to "see;" often it's abstract ideas. Same thing with "I get the picture," oddly enough. :) "Getting" the picture is different from "picturing." But "I can almost taste it" I interpret as a little more visceral; for me it invokes tasting something on your tongue, like sweat. Or "the sweet taste of victory" brings to my mind the taste of something sweet and savory, because there's a similarity in the emotion I get from actually eating something sweet and savory and from being victorious in something. So it's metaphorical but still involves imagery. Language is weird...
You're so right! The keyword here I think is "invoke". With most of these expressions they start out metaphorical actually but can become sensory if the subject is deep enough to the listener. When I say things like "I could almost picture it", sometimes I really am visualizing it, sometimes I'm not. It depends on how involved I am in the conversation.
Today, I was thinking about my kitchen. I could visualize the entire space in my head. I wanted to get a new light fixture. As I was searching for a new fixture, I could visualize how each one would look in the space (inside of my head) I could see colors and navigate different angles of the space to “see” which one might look best.
The reason I always knew it was normal to see and hear stories and such in my head is probably because of seeing cartoons, comics, books, where people have thought bubbles and it'll show an image inside the thought. Or in cartoons the camera will zoom into their head and show like a whole new story play out. And I recall many times in shows like Boy Meets World, where they'd playback something someone said to someone else, but it was playing back in their heads. It all just seemed to show that this is how everyone functions.
That's so interesting to me. Like, I knew it was supposed to be things they were thinking, but I thought it was just a visual representation of abstract thoughts. It never dawned on me people actually thought that way. If I'm thinking about something embarrassing that happened earlier in the day, I can't see or hear it, I just have the concept of what happened swirling in my head. I can't replay it that way.
I think people are using the word 'see' a little freely when they say they can SEE in their mind. It's not like it's clearly on a screen and you can look at it. I don't think the majority of people experience visual imagery in this way. When you imagine a tune in your head it is quite close to how you would hear a tune externally, but do people claim that visual imagination is actually like you can see pictures with your eyes closed? I can imagine an image, but I wouldn't describe that I was 'seeing' it.
@@mandrewsvideos I asked my husband the imagine an apple question. He closed his eyes and vividly described his apple. He could rotate it and describe the details on the skin. I just sat there dumbfounded.
I can imagine without seeing. Best way I can describe it is that my mind creates individual memories of pieces of images. When I try to "see" the image, I open my eyes and think of details. It's not perfect, and I don't remember all the details, but it's how my mind compensated for its lack of visualization.
I’m 42 and l thought it was normal, not able to see in my mind. Now l feel like in a world alone and l was able to picture things in my mind it would scare me.
The idea that picturing something in one's head is just a metaphorical tool that only exists in movies/literature is exactly how I perceived inner monologues before I discovered people actually had them. I always assumed everyone thought it pictures and sounds--but not words--like I do, and that the "inner monologue" was just a way to transcribe these images to better fit media, such as books and plays, that are better suited for words than they are images.
58 and just found out a few days ago and my mind is blown, I’m so glad I have it, I thinks it’s why I can work in child sexual abuse, my colleagues have burnt out but they used to say I’m dead instead, I feel the emotion in the moment but then I can choose not to think about and it’s gone, sounds cold but it means I can help more children. My mind is peaceful and calm, I don’t miss seeing my loved ones faces as I photograph everyone often and now realise why I look at them more often than others.
Regarding your comment "I wonder why we don't have a lot of little kids saying 'Mommy I see colours out of the side of my eye that are not really there'" I think someone mentioned this in the comments of a previous video, and I'm sure it's hard to conceptualize if you haven't experienced it, but the pictures a person sees in their mind's eye don't feel at all like actually seeing something in front of you in real life or in a photo/movie. People talk about it like "seeing" because we don't really have accurate words to describe it, but it's a lot fuzzier and less vivid than the things you see in front of your eyes. The images feel as real as I'd assume your memories feel to you, since they're all just thoughts. To me it seems like it's no more likely that a kid says "Mommy I can remember things" than that they say "Mommy I can picture things" lol. This is why even people with a mind's eye love watching movies, because even if you already know what happens, picturing something isn't nearly as complete of an experience as actually watching it. The only time that perception can sort of be warped is during intense daydreaming where you "zone out" and your thoughts feel as real as they do during night-dreaming. This is something that kids do much more often than adults, though. Probably something to do with young brains. It's possible that someone else with a mind's eye might have a different experience, but as far as I know this particular stuff is fairly universal.
Yeah, it's hard for me to really picture it 😄. I think seeing even just fuzzy images in your mind would be quite disconcerting, but I guess it's different when you grow up always having them.
Yea, as Jay said, we don't so much literally see picture images so much as feel/know what they are. Like when I think back to a movie, I don't so much *see* the clips behind my eyes as I do remember/feel them. I just sort of know them and think about it as if looking at it (still without *actually* "seeing" anything). It's super hard to explain, as I'm sure it must be hard to understand. If I find a better way to describe it I will get back to you. I do dream very vividly and if I'm deep in thought I can sort of half see (again it's not like literally seeing an actual something) like a translucent, fuzzy feeling that I can see the actual thing there. I can also "feel" and "taste" things but again it's not even close to so real that I could mistake those feelings for the real thing; more like you're remembering them. A sort of "shadow" of reality. God, I wish I could explain it better....this whole thing has blown my mind, it is basically all I think about ALL THE TIME the last 3 days since I discovered it...😅
Jay I really do picture things vividly and in great detail in my mind. I can actually feel, taste smell as well as picture the beach for instance. The salty air, for instance. I can feel the damp sand beneath me- and so it goes. I also get the peace and calm of really being there. There truly are differences between people in the depth of this ability. As a Designer, when working with clients, it has become very apparent that this is the case.
@@fionamcarthur The translucent is interesting. I had a commentor on another video describe the visuals as similar to reflections in car windows while you're driving. My husband said that was an accurate description. What do you think?
Having no imagery i thought people were lying about seeing images. I never thought not seeing was an issue. Just seems normal but finding out I'm not normal is a shock. I had issues in school when it came to reading books. If i couldn't see the pictures associated with the words i would forget what i read after turning the page. Retaining information was hard so i learned by reading a section and breaking the information down the best way i could. I wouldn't read the whole book. Skipping through sections and also reading the back for clues. I do have vivid dreams where most people don't. I can see faces of people i never met. Where some people say they don't see people's faces but have a sense of feeling of that person. This whole topic is just amazing to me
Thank you so much for taking the time to do these. I have just discovered that I am an Aphant. Ironically, I teach and write about imagination, literature, and the visual arts. So yup, pretty crazy. I have shared your intro w/ a ton of folk to help them understand what this is like for me. (And gosh does the discovery ever make sense of so so much!!)
Hello, I´m from Portugal, and I had the same "revelation" when I begin to meditate one year ago, and I didn't saw anything when they tell us to visualize it. Just getting frustrated while seeing the darkness in my mind, I spent all my 50th years hold thinking this happens to everyone. Thanks for sharing it with your videos. Best regards
This is just fascinating. It is a new dimension in the human experience. I cannot emphasize enough that these pictures in the mind are (for most people) not vivid, nothing like seeing the outside world. Maybe in schools kids will someday be separated into visualizers, hearers, feelers and so forth. Probably each type of child should be taught differently. The time may come when people will be astounded to think that there was a time when everyone did not know about these differences. It would be as if no one had noticed hair color, and then someone says, did you know some people have different hair from you? And then you look carefully and sure enough, their hair looks different. And in our current world, everybody knows that people are different in respect to hair color, and could be put into different groups by that, or by height, or what language they speak, or whether they have inner monologue. But in the past no one realized that.
I just wanted to emphasize that the pictures in my mind are indeed as vivid as real life. It is like running a good video. Actually, it can be even more vivid than what I see via my eyes. I realize now that there really is a broad spectrum of inner sight. I recently learned about hyperphantasia, the opposite end of the spectrum from aphantasia. It seems that I have that.
@@deborahm6036 Thanks, Deborah. I am aware that some people such as yourself have very vivid images. I think you are lucky. My images have never been tremendously distinct, and now that I am almost seventy years old they are much weaker than when I was young.
@@RalphDratman Understood. The differences in how we humans are wired is so much more varied than I ever knew. I always thought my inner vision was the norm. I suppose thinking that is only natural for us all.
@@deborahm6036 Has your vivid visualization been helpful or valuable to you? I used to benefit from my fairly good (but never great) visualization skills when I was studying physics and mathematics.
Just watched all of your videos. Very interesting!When I read i the description that you don't have an inner monologue or see pictures, I was, mildly put, baffled. To me, the monologues, dialogs and pictures is how I think. But then you said something, namely "I just know". I think many of of us who do see pictures and have monologues in our mind, do that too, but it might be overshadowed by the more vivid inner processes. Though when we dream, it is not uncommon that we "know" things, but when we wake up and remember the dream, we know that what we "knew" in the dream was incorrect. In the dream though, that "knowledge" is rock solid and indisputable, and if you question it, you might start having a lucid dream. I understand that you don't "see movies" when you dream. As an example though: I might dream that I'm visiting my parents and I'm trying to help my parents old cat on the upper floor. I know that the cat likes to hide in some place. But when I wake up I remember that the place that I saw in my dream is nothing like my parents place, and they don't even have a cat, nor an upper floor. But in the dream I just knew these things "in my gut". They were indisputable facts. I wonder if your "thinking" is like this feeling of "knowing" the things you think about. Anyhow, thanks for the videos, they're very interesting!
I didn't realize my lack of visual images until about 50 years old. I read a book on memory palaces when I was in college, and read a second book many years later. My memory is not so good so I wanted to improve, and tried doing memory palaces and couldn't have much success for obvious reasons. But even with this experience, I still didn't realize the reason this technique wouldn't work for me. It is just really hard to grasp what is going on in other people's minds and how your mind could be different.
It's interesting because now I'm noticing the opposite. I asked a woman for directions and I pulled up google maps and asked her to point where the post office was. This is her town. She was a post office employee but she needed to scroll down to the text and show me the address. She didn't think in terms of maps. I think this stuff is so important for us to communicate better.
Living without an imagination is so crazy to me. I just learned this and learned one of my sons has it and possibly my daughter. She's to young for me to know for sure but my son and I sat there saying, you mean you see That!! I'd be like, you don't??!! It was so eye opening to why he only likes picture books, has a terrible memory and do many other things!! This is so crazy. Not to mention my Ex was diagnosed schizophrenia in his late 30's and I wonder now if his minds eye opened because he would hear voices and see things. He'd tell me and I'd be like, yeah it's called a thought... I didn't understand and he just fell down the rabbit hole more... I'm blown away. I really am wondering so many things now.
Yes I saw from another video that schizophrenia may be not recognizing your own thoughts. One of my theories is that the part of the brain that connects you to your own thoughts may be weaker for these people with aphantasia because they can draw and 'find' the image or they can recognize people or even have a good sense of direction. They often times don't seem to know 'how' they do it though. But then there is some evidence that those parts of the brain don't light up in MRI. However perhaps there is a mirror of 2 parts of the brain and they don't get the second part that mirrors the first. Also there were twins where one had aphantasia and the other didn't so it may be something we can change.
In order to write a novel, one needs to be able to imagine the scene that's taking place. One needs to be able to describe how the five senses will interact with the scene, and as such, smells, sights, sounds must be imagined and described.
There are authors who write more about thoughts than putting details to sensory stuff. I am bad with imagining certain things, but great with (using) memories and fantasizing when it comes to other things. If I'd be motivated to, I imagine I could do detailed sensory stuff, but it just doesn't interest me much, and I will also not be all that interested in reading long descriptions of details of surroundings etc in novels, either, although really enjoying them when watching movies.
People don’t SEE things that aren’t there like monsters under the bed. I picture thoughts and memories when I’m not busy or when I daydream. But it’s not like I project them in front of me. They are inside my brain
found out last week I have full Aphantasia and yes your correct that I rationalized all those expressions as metaphor in the same way.. The one interesting point you bring up is imaginary friends.. I actually did have an imaginary friend as a child but I think it was more of a social peer pressure type of thing. all my friends had Imaginary friends so I had to as well.. I made up a name (stomper) and some simple descriptions of what it could look like. But I was keenly aware it was a game or a imaginary friend and not real, not something I could see or interact with more the concept of a thing in another dimension that I was "aware of" and of course I now had something to blame if something broke which was an added benefit and all the adults just kind of roll their eyes and accept it. Looking back im baffled that people with imaginary friends might have actually seen and heard a internal friend :o
As a small child, when I couldn't sleep I actually watched made up movies on the wall. The first time something like this happened I saw just a rose and I asked my mother if she could see it too. Because it looked so real- not in my head but actually on the wall. She told me that's my fantasy and since then I used it for when I was bored or not tired enough
Just found your channel. I have a question, like a baseline: I have a favorite restaurant in my hometown, Suite 100. I can, at will, summon up images of the lobby, the hostess station, the dining room layout, the bar, etc. I don’t believe I would be absolutely accurate in my recollection, but the images are vivid, from the lighting, to the colors of the pendant lights, to the location of the open cooking area-I can see it even though my eyes are open and reading the text I am typing right now. That to me seemed a function of memory. On the other hand, my husband and I were talking about building a kitchen island. He began spelling out his idea, even taking to pen and paper to sketch it out. And I got annoyed because what he was describing seemed so complicated and I blurted out “why can’t we just do X Y Z?” But I only did that because the image popped into my head right before that-I could see the finished product.
Yes it's something I'm discovering as well. People who don't visualize as well tend to need to work things out on paper more. I can sit in the corner of a room and just move things around in my mind for hours, even the whole house trying to find what I like. Then I suddenly just get up and do it. I could also draw it, but that would only be if I needed to send the drawing to someone. I think when 2 people who visualize well talk they can mainly just describe what they want and they can see each other's vision. I've had many friends like that and it makes conversation easy.
Interestingly, I've always wondered how a person, raised alone and without language, could think. ALL of my thinking is in words. If there aren't words going on in my mind I don't think that I would be able to consider things or invent a tool or anything... since all my mental processes are further processed into audible language inside of my mind. And it's not sound coming from the ears, doesn't even feel the same. It's all being generated as a constant stream of thought sometimes with images (when needed) and sometimes without. I don't need images to think "I'm hungry... time to eat."
The picture in my head are like having a photo in your house or a movie on your tv in the background but less vivid. You know it’s not real and you aren’t always focused on it and at times you might focused more than others. The only time I think stuff in my head is real is when I’m falling asleep or wake up from a dream. Confusing the images in your mind with reality might be a symptom of a mental disorder. I’m thinking of the movie a Beautiful Mind.
Yeah, my only experience with people seeing things in their mind were things like 'A Beautiful Mind' and 'American Psycho', so it's all very confusing for me. My husband described the inner voice similarly to how you describe the pictures in your head, always on in the background. It's really so fascinating, and still seems unreal!
Omg thank you so much for doing these videos, they are soo interesting! I actually have a loot of questions, I hope you do a Q&A so you can answer them all. Here they are: 1. How do you pray? Do you always say your prayer out loud? 2. If you feel something that is not appropriate to say, for example: "that's an ugly shirt", how do you know you are thinking of it if you don't say it? 3. How do you count things? Is it always out loud? 4. Do you have less ugly feelings than people who have inner voice? For example, jelously or low self steem, those are all based on bad thoughts. Thank you so much! Hope you can answer them all
Glad you find it interesting! I will try my best to answer. 1. Honestly, I don't really want to get too much into religious things because I really, really don't want to offend anyone. But, until you asked that, I didn't realize people could say prayers without saying them out loud. I was under the impression that when asked to bow your head in prayer, you were just supposed to be silent and listen. That has always been how I have done it when in those situations. 2. I can still be judgemental, but I don't say the things to myself in my head. It's just like I notice it and file it away. Then, I might say it later. Like when my husband comes home from work, I might tell him about it. 3. I much prefer counting out loud, but I can force some kind of inner voice if I'm in a situation where I can't. It's not very reliable, though, and I can forget easily. If you gave me a phone number to remember, I would likely not get all the digits unless I could say them out loud. 4. I definitely can still feel jealousy and negativity, but perhaps it fades quicker for me because I don't hear or see the things repeatedly in my mind? I can't think of a time where I've ever been jealous over looks or visual things like this, which might be due to not being able to visualize, but I could feel jealous about someone winning the lottery or graduating without student loans, though. But I don't hold on to these things, and I wouldn't really think much about them unless I said them out loud to somebody. I think I'm generally a pretty relaxed and mellow person. I think I'm pretty forgiving and not likely to hold a grudge. But that could just be my personality and have little to do with my lack of inner voice or visualization ability.
Hyperphantasia for me is that my thoughts can be so visual that I am somewhat disconnected from the physical world in front of me. In my mind I can visually walk through spaces, pick objects up, dismantle objects, build objects all without having anything related to those objects in front of me. I can think in three dimensions I guess. It helps me plan and execute ideas. But, I am horrible at paperwork, horrible at numbers, horrible at paying attention to what people are saying, etc. I get distracted by my vivid thoughts. For me though, this way of thinking IS my superpower. Even if people further toward Aphantasia find my way of doing things to be frustrating for them. I find that people want me to explain my thought process often before trusting me, which for me is frustrating because it all seems so obvious because I have thought through every physical step before executing something. I PREFER to think through my projects in detail before beginning. It does not mean I have all the answers when creating something brand-spanking new to me. Phantasia is all very new to me. Like this video, I had no idea people COULD NOT visualize like I do. I thought people were just being jerks to me when I would try to express an idea to them that I could see very clearly as a solution. Often times working with people feels like I have to be very patient as they try to figure something out by making mistakes that I have already avoided in my head. It's weird, lol. I love it and hate it, because it is so hard to express the concept of "a picture is worth a 1000 words" when the picture is inside my head. Another challenge is being present to other people. I can be present in the wind and trees and feel the Sun and smell the air, but when people are talking I want to ask them to write a bullet list of only the useful information and none of the adjectives, because I don't want to sit there and just listen to people talk unless I have chosen to listen to them for my own joy. I can't seem to choose to listen to people I physically hate listening to... like bosses, lol.
You have the same things as me. You do all the work in your head and then jump to the solution in the 'real' world. This pisses a lot of people off because I think they can't understand how it works. I've learned to write more things down and share more over the years. One of the strangest things is realizing that other people don't do this because our world is so much bigger than the world we see with our eyes... in our mind we have millions of worlds, billions of realities and we can make them up and move them around at any time. To imagine that someone doesn't have this in their mind is like to imagine losing your mind. Who would you even be?
I know this is crazy, but I have a thought that comes to mind when I think about your mental processes and what you've described and I keep thinking about a robotic mind. You've said that when in conversation, you don't think about what you are going to say, you listen to the other person and then just open your mouth and the words come out. From my perspective, that would mean that much of the time you are acting as the physical vehicle of communication, but that you aren't actually in charge of building or formulating your thoughts (especially in debate), they are processed by 'something else' and your body is just the messenger that says it out loud. This is what makes me think it's more like a curtain or wall between your conscious and unconscious mind. That all the verbalization and visualization is occurring, but you have no access to what's happening behind the curtain that separates conscious and unconscious thought... but the curtain also seems to draw that line between what is conscious and unconscious MUCH more into the territory that would be considered the area of active, conscious, thought. But of course, I'm grasping at straws since I'm not a brain scientist or anything and I have no way to tap in and experience what you experience. Again, and I'm sure I speak for many following your videos, THANK YOU for inviting us into the magical mystery tour about how all are brains work!
I think a lot comes from our own perspectives. I've had many people question my free will, as if I'm not in control of myself. Like I'm the NPC in this game 😄. But honestly, to me, it feels like the opposite. I feel like I'm absolutely in control of everything I do, and because my mind/body/spirit connection is so strong, I don't need to communicate with myself to do things. Everything in me is one connected entity, so I just know what I want to say and do. Many have described the inner voice and visualizations as feeling like "them". It's who they are. But to me it sounds like a separateness. Why would I wait for a voice to tell me what my decision is when I can just make the decision? It seems weird to me to need a voice or image in one's head to prompt one to do something. I'm sure the same processes are happening in my mind, but I'm just not conscious of the process. Whether by unconscious choice or a physical difference in my brain chemistry, I have no idea. Truthfully, though, does the internal debate matter as long as I give the answer I want? And just because I'm not listening to the process doesn't mean I don't know all the information that went into the decision. If you asked me why I did or said something, I could certainly give you the reasons. Honestly, the idea of hearing or seeing things in my mind involuntarily sounds absolutely terrifying. People have commented that they get pictures of things in their heads that they don't want to see or their inner voice says terrible things to them that they don't want to hear. If there is more free will in having images and sounds in the mind, then why does that happen? It all seems very strange to me. But, again, my perspective is completely different as I've never been any other way. Perhaps someone who had the abilities and lost them through a trauma or something would be better able to expound on the differences.
I don't think most visioned people (neologism... I claim the rights) can imagine thought without language, which is what you are describing. What if you are the next step in evolution? Weird to think of, but as I've said in other threads, I wonder what a society of all afantasiacs (?) would be like. My bet is more peaceful and focused and less interest in the arts, as an average. I was talking with my son today and he was wondering if you could drop most adjectives without caring, but that adverbs were important to you.
@@Netopia40 I don't know about an evolutionary step, but I definitely see the benefits in the lack of an inner voice (Visualizations I'm still about 50/50 on. In some instances, they're definitely a plus, but there are certainly downsides as well). The art idea is interesting. Personally, I don't really care much for it. I can appreciate when something looks nice, but I don't feel anything for it. However, there are a lot of aphant artists, so it's definitely not the same for us all. You may want to check out the exhibit "Extreme Imagination: Inside the Mind’s Eye". It was a show comprised of artists with aphantasia and hyperphantasia. I wonder if you'd notice a difference in their styles. Here's one review I found, tanyajug.co.uk/extreme-imagination-inside-the-minds-eye/ As for writing, that was actually my form of creativity growing up. I would fill floppy disks with my stories. I wonder if it came from not being about to create them in my head as well as I wanted to, so I needed to have them in the real world. I would assume I was more vague on the visuals and heavier on the dialogue, though. And, oddly enough, my last job before I had kids was as a textbook writer 😄. I generally attacked adverbs and adjectives more logically than stylistically. As in, if I used "quickly" on the page already, then I needed to choose a different synonym the next time to add variety to the passage.
A random question I just wondered about... How does a person with Aphantasia cope with moving around a familiar place when it is completely dark? For example, you wake up during a power cut and your flashlight is downstairs in a kitchen drawer and you decide you have to go fetch it. What is the thought process for you? Obviously people with and without Aphantasia would have to feel their way around but would their approaches to the problem differ (would they be searching for different cues)?
Hmm, that's a good one. If I were trying to feel my way through the dark, I would likely just feel for what's in front of me. I wouldn't try to imagine what each object I was touching was. Would you try to build the room in your mind? I wouldn't be able to do that. I get really lost in mazes. Not sure if it's just because of Aphantasia, but I definitely can't think about the layout of it while I'm doing it. I'm just moving randomly.
@@quietmindinside4808 Yes, I'd build the rooms in my mind but it would not be a case of "trying" - the model would appear automatically and would change every time I took another step forward or turned my head in another direction. I would have no choice but to have that model "visible" in my mind, but it would not involve verbal descriptions of objects (typically). Significantly, familiarity with the building is a primary factor in how well this all works. I've lived in the same house for many years and know it extremely well. If I were in someone else's house during a complete blackout I'd be in real trouble!
@@CasualInventor Interesting! If I were in my home, I'd probably be ok because it would be like muscle memory to move around it. But somewhere new? No way. I would probably end up circling the same room and not know it.
Another example I have of this is DID (dissociative Identity disorder) because those I know who has it always thought that everyone has "people in their head" because we talk about our inner voice and arguing with ourselves in our head. That is an expression that we use, but that could mean different to those of us who don't have it, compared to those who do actually have people in their head😉
There's an aphantasia for all the senses. Some aphants are only missing one sense, some are missing all. I can hear things in my head, like music and my voice, but I can't smell, taste, touch, or see.
Also made me think of meditation. I can't stand when people talk about taking time to visualize while meditating. Would be why i use to fall asleep while meditating. Just getting frustrated while seeing the darkness that eventually puts me to sleep. Now I'm curious if counting sheep if that was actual visual to people?
My perception when I visualize is more like a belief that the object is there moving in my mind but if I try to literally see it, it vanishes. Its like a thing that isn't a thing. This hurts my head to think about... but in a good way. As a way to better understand how my personal reality is depicted in my mind.
I was wondering, how good is your "color memory"? Like I can look at a strange wall once and several hours later go to a paint store and pick out a single color chip from memory and it's usually very close a perfect match. I wonder if that's comparable to "perfect pitch" for sound; almost everybody can tell if two notes played back-to-back are the same or which is higher/lower, just as you could compare two color swatches sitting side-by-side. But very few can remember an exact frequency and recall it much later. I was most curious about colors because it seems like there would be no other way to remember them other than a visual memory (unlike shapes, etc. which you can remember through "facts" or descriptions).
No way, I'd never be able to do that. I might remember it was light blue as opposed to dark blue, but not an exact match. When I know I need to do a matching color, I have to take a picture.
There are probably levels of color memory. I was at Lowes trying to buy some tile that matched the tile color in my house and even though I have a very visual memory I didn't trust it so I went and got a picture. Actually I don't even perfectly trust the picture because the lighting in the photograph can be wrong. I was in the ballpark from memory, but I didn't pick up on the fact that my real tile has a slight red tint and isn't perfectly white.
Hi Quiet Mind, what you’ve said about your memory apparatus has now got me thinking about scent memory. I think I remember how things smell (and by extension taste) kind of in the same way you describe your memory without internal voices or images! I realize that I don’t remember how things actually smell. I’ve known that for quite a while, actually, but what I realize now is how odd it is that this doesn’t bother me. I cannot bring to mind an actual smell, like I’m having the experience of smelling a lilac from memory, not at all. And yet, I have complete confidence that I know how lilacs smell! The minute I get the scent of lilac, I know what it is. There is no fear that I won’t, it doesn’t even occur to me that I won’t recognize it in the future, despite being unable to summon the experience of smelling it. This is completely different from remembering how a lilac looks for me! I can see it in my mind, it’s shape and color, movement in the wind, etc. Yet despite having excellent recall of how the lilac looks, and zero recall of how the lilac smells, I have absolutely no anxiety that I don’t know how a lilac smells - because I do! I absolutely do. This might be a way for me to understand your way of remembering how things look, despite not being able to see them in memory, and possibly even what it means to remember facts without needing to ‘say’ them in your mind. Taste is just a bit different because there’s a physical sensation as well as a smell. I know I like stout but don’t like IPA. Just not my thing. I can’t summon the taste of either to my mind, but I do remember well the unpleasant (to me) bitter aspect of IPA, so unlike the softer more alkaline stout. It’s a physical reaction of the tongue, I think. But I am not, absolutely not, able to recall, in the sense of re-experiencing from memory, the actual taste of them. And yet I can easily tell you which are my favorite stouts, and why, and tell nice little stories about this or that beer I enjoyed. I will argue the virtues of this or that beer. Without the actual ability to recall the taste. I’ve done this for decades without finding it the least bit odd. Perhaps this inability to remember taste is uncommon - I’ve had people tell me the same thing about themselves, though. It hasn’t ever felt like an obstacle, and it doesn’t now, but I’m thinking about it as if for the first time!
Yes, that is a very good description! I think my memories are just as you describe your memory of smells. I absolutely know everything that I'm saying and I'm confident I will recognize everything when I see it, there is just no sound or image. That is a very good comparison.
Ah, thank you Deborah! You've always given me such lovely comments, and I've missed messaging with you as well. I am actually hoping to get something up soon!
As hard as it is to relate to that, the reason why you don't have kids running around saying they see colors is because it's just a normal human thing, something that's always there. It's just fascinating your perspective, not having experience it, so wondering why. As far as smell and taste, people can't really smell or taste things by thinking it. Unless, maybe I'm the exception and don't realize it. Also, something that I often think about is how intangible thoughts and visuals are in one's head. Like, everything in the universe is made up of atoms, but when it comes to memories, you see the visuals, colors, but they're not really located anywhere. I can see a building right now, but it's like nowhere.
I've noticed you talk about your aphantasia way more than your lack of an inner monologue. Is it that you find it more interesting, or no inner monologue didn't bother you as much as aphantasia did? I've been following your videos since you replied to me on that other video. Cool content btw, keep it up! 👍🏾
I guess the no inner monologue doesn't seem as shocking to me as the lack of imagery. I've known that it was possible to hear voices in one's head; although, I only believed it happened in extreme cases, like in schizophrenia. But at least I believed it was a possibility. With the images, I really had no idea it was possible at all. I think, too, since I can kind of force an inner voice to work out a sentence or something, I kind of understand what it's supposed to feel like in your head. The pictures I have no clue.
@@quietmindinside4808 Yeah, this is really confusing to me, I've always had the impression that seeing things that aren't real is bad. I do have the inner monolog though but assumed that what was bad when it comes to inner voices is when it's not your voice you hear.
@@SWEmanque Yeah, my only knowledge of seeing things that aren't there were things like "Beautiful Mind" and "American Psycho", so the idea that there is a normal amount of seeing things that is ok is really bizarre to me. And those were hallucinations seen out in the real world, I didn't know they could actually be "seen" inside ones head. 😂
@@quietmindinside4808lately they found that schizophrenia is actually related to ocd. And it makes sense because instinctively we know that our inner monologue is our own inner monologue. So schizophrenia has always bothered me because it seems absurd to think that our own inner voices are not our own and they belong to somebody else. Like, there's a bit of obnoxious behavior there. And it turns out that the same type of therapy that works for OCD is what works for schizophrenia. And it's because they're both based on paranoia and... I'm not sure what the exact term would be. I guess inner strife? Where somebody is trying to struggle with something that ought to be completely normal and that usually is completely normal for them. I guess it's time to shame. Because they feel ashamed for something that they shouldn't really be shamed for. Like some people develop OCD for walking on cracks on the sidewalk. Because they feel embarrassed about being childish. So when they're walking on the pavement that's all they can think about.
Have you ever played Tetris? Try playing it for hours. And then walk away from the game, you might still see falling tetris shapes falling. Just a suggestion.
easy way to see what you see wood be when you forget something lets say keys how do you find them by visualising when can they be or wher did you last bean or how you just look for them
I can think both ways I go to your style if I need to have fast reflexes or my memory of sound and image and inner monologue fails il use like a filing cabinet info style of thinking.
About 2 year old child is interesting topik. My son is 2 year old. He is always tells me unbelivable stories. Sometimes so unreal, but i never think about kid's imagination. They should see things all the time!
It's funny to me because I used to come up with crazy stories and stuff, but for me it was all purely pretend. I didn't see anything. I just made things up. It never dawned on me that the creativity and imagination of children was based on things they were actually seeing. Makes me wonder how anyone ever learns what's real or imaginary. Now that I know about visualization, I've been asking my daughter all the time about things she sees. I ask her to build her scenes for me so I can "see" them, too.
Hi, great vlog! Don't you associate at all? For example if somebody invents an animal in their head and would describe it to you, would you be able to draw it regarding to what you think it should look like after the other person's description? So interesting, thank you
Honestly, I kind of suck at any kind of drawing, so even animals I'm familiar with would be an issue 😄. But if someone said like a head of a snake and a body of a pig, I would understand the concept of it, but I wouldn't see it. I could try to draw it, but it wouldn't be very good.
See it’s hard for me to Believe that you guys Can’t see anything in your mind. Mine are so vivid that I can literally come up with characters, hear their voices, create their backgrounds in vivid detail. And literally watch an episode, so to speak, play out and my head. This was always my way to get away from reality into a world created by myself. If I was never bored in class when I was younger, I would do this to entertain myself. It is literally like watching a movie in your mind. I am so grateful for this ability but so sad for you that you cant experience it.
That sounds amazing. Honestly, it sounds like something from a movie to me; not real life at all 😄. It's still hard for me to believe you guys can really do that! It makes me sad, too, truthfully. You all have this whole separate world that I can't access. Definitely some jealousy with that. But there's nothing I can do about it, so I'm trying my best to focus on the positives.
About the kids, your questions at the end. Well to answer that, we always thought like this, growing up. So it wasn't anything new. So a kid wouldn't suddenly say oh my gosh I'm imagining things that aren't there. Because they know that their thoughts, cuz they're used to how their brain thinks What's interesting is your other example of monsters under the bed and imaginary friends. Because I do think that is kind of what you're talking about. They are imagining something that isn't there. And they kind of know that it's not there and they're just imagining it. And that's why it worries parents because we all know naturally and instinctively what the difference is between the visualizations in our head and reality. So, they're worried that their kid is being odd and pretending they can't tell the difference between visualization and reality But it's funny that you asked how they approached that. Because then I realized that's the word "imagination." It has the word "image" in it. So we tell them it's just their "imagination."
Something which I find impossible to understand is how you can have memories without seeing them in your mind's eye. I literally don't - can't, even, understand what a 'memory' is without images. My memories are crystal clear, like I can relive them again at will. It's just like watching snippets of film / movie, seeing through my own eyes. Or occasionally it can also be kind of more like a general bird's eye overview of events and places. That's probably truer of my memories from a linger time ago, like when I was a small child. But always, always I can see them. The key thing is I can jump around in space and time and recall whatever memories I want and from whenever, at will. I literally cannot conceive of living without this ability. I thought it was the same for everyone.
Yeah but there is a part of your brain that functions on its own without your input. Like when you go to sleep in your brain starts dreaming. It develops a dream without your own input. So I think it must be like that. I think they just function with their brain completely controlling itself, almost like subconsciously or something. What's really interesting is how they are completely capable. So it's not like they're suffering or missing out on anything I guess. And every person who I've seen like this seems to be .... doing bpretty well. Like, they seem pretty sensible and put together
I've recently come upon this subject and have been somewhat troubled by it. And I've been thinking a lot about how to process it. I feel that I think much like you do. For example, now I'm not thinking about what to wright but really only how to type the correct letters in order. I didn't before think about what I was writing, it just flows from my fingertips. Now I am amazed that some people as I understand it have to first internally speak everything before they say or wright it. What I am wondering though is how to define the "internal monologue" Now many people say they "hear" their voice speaking what they want to say... I don't know what to think about that and it concerns me. Some have said that they can be talking while their internal voice is saying different things. That sounds confusing to me, how can they figure out what they are trying to say without the two melding and becoming unintelligible? And as far as pictures in my head, I can dream but I have to try very hard to consciously create an extremely faint and shadow image in my"imagination" of something. I can never "picture in my minds eye?" a face of a loved one, even my children. I know their characteristics but the most I can conjure is a split second blurry outline that immediately dissapears.
Honestly, prior to this month, I always associated inner voices with issues such as schizophrenia. I had no idea it was the "norm" to talk to oneself throughout the day. Apparently, it is quite common to narrate one's actions, make plans, work out problems, relive conversations, and just chat in one's head. Even more shocking to me is that people hear their inner voices saying negative things to them that they can't control. I honestly can't fathom how this works. I am able to kind of force an inner voice for like working out a sentence, so I have some kind of idea I guess of how it feels, but it seems incredibly distracting to have it nonstop throughout the day, and even worse hearing things you don't want to hear. Learning that people speak to themselves in their heads and see images in their heads is seriously the craziest science fiction-esque thing ever! I thought everyone just had thoughts like me. Concepts, abstract thinking. It really blows my mind. I honestly don't know how to reconcile it.
@@quietmindinside4808 I think I get what you mean and really I have always felt I have no inner monologue or "minds eye". I guess I'm saying that I feel I understand you because I feel the same or at least a very similar way. I wonder how many kinds/levels of aphantasia (spectrums) there are. I've experienced my whole life what you have put to words and I thank you for showing me that I'm not the only one like this.
@@darviswhatfer3865 I wonder, too. It seems like even people who can visualize are surprised by the scope of other people's abilities, so there must be a huge spectrum.
"I see what you mean" - means exactly how you described it, to understand what they mean. "taste their desperation" - it's a figure of speech, like when they say dogs can smell fear... well, actually, I looked this up and dogs literally can smell fear, so maybe this isn't a good analogy. lol
Occasionally 'I see what you mean' could be linguistically driven. Often it has added visualisations. People can also recall taste, though it isn't as strong as the real thing. 'I can taste it right now...' etc, these are not simply expressions. Have you ever thought about developing a mind's eye or at least developing the ability to think with thoughts? Be good to see you make some more videos, I can just imagine you doing that right now. ;)
Just search Synesthesia! It is not that common - but when you have this - you can feel few things out of the common. For instance - words and numbers have colours! Other type is musical Synesthesia - basacly you see the music in colour and shapes! (I have version of this) Or even you can feel if someone touches other person. There is many version of this out there.
Yes, I've had a few people with synethesia comment here. Very fascinating! I had actually read about it before I found out about Aphantasia, but I didn't really understand it. I guess because I was limited by what my own experience is. Sounds amazing, though. Like having the 'Fantasia' movie play out in your head with everything you hear!
I guess I just do it logically instead of spatially? I can't see anything in my head to help me estimate, but I can judge a size and then figure something out. Perhaps it's not as accurate, though.
I suspect that most expressions are metaphors of literal perceptions -- like "Keep your eye on the ball" meaning keep your objective or goal in your mind. So when self-help, spiritual gurus and people of that ilk talk about visualization, I'm curious as to how you perceived that particular usage of the word. I think I mentioned on another one of your videos, when I speak to a new person on the phone -- whom I've never met or seen -- I conjure up a picture of that person behind the voice. I guess you can call that image an avatar. Now the avatar may bear little resemblance to the actual person - but sometimes they're not far off. I can only imagine -- no pun intended --that these avatars are shaped by past encounters and the impressions they've made.
To me, "visualize" just meant "think about". I just thought we used words like that because what was happening in our minds couldn't really be described and those were the things that were closest. I never thought a "seer" was actually "seeing" the future. They were getting an impression of it in the abstract thoughts we all had (well, that I thought we all had 🤣). Truthfully, I've never really been into any of the spiritual stuff - yoga, meditation, etc. It all seemed a bit kooky to me. I guess because I didn't really understand the point. But now I understand why people are attracted to it. And I definitely don't get anything when I talk to a person on the phone. It's one of those weird visualization things I think I'll never understand the point of. It just seems kind of odd to me to picture someone you'll never meet.
everyone else in the universe has the ability to split part of their consciousness and send it to mars. people say "oh I wasn't paying attention im on mars right now." there's no way anyone without the ability would take that seriously.
So much of our language assumes that we have these internal senses, that it might stop us from having a proper conversation about this at all. If you talk about imagination or dreams, people insist that means images, even though blind-from-birth people have both. I suspect people do actually feel music and taste desperation. I can't taste any food inside my head but many people can, even those who can't see images.
I have aphantasia too. I never understood the saying "to undress a woman with your eyes". It just seemed to... Complicated. I am however shocked that people can actually do that. It seems so wrong.
Possible that people with aphantasia are more reasonable naturalist down to earth people", Many artist and philosophers was tormented by their ability to visualize and create scenery and images..
Yeah, I do. I had heard of it before, but I was understanding it through what my own experiences were. So, for example, when I heard people saw letters or numbers as a certain color, I assumed it was just what they saw on a page while reading. So, like, a page in a book would just appear to have rainbow font to them. I had no idea they were seeing these things in their minds as well.
I didn’t find out until last month. My eldest son told my daughter he had this. He was reading about it. I said I have that! I’m 59. I didn’t even know it was a thing, I thought everyone was like that. It never occurred to me otherwise. I asked my husband and daughter what they saw and I was floored. Then I asked my younger son, and he’s like me too, poor kid. I wonder about the genetics.
"I see what you mean" is definitely figurative. My blind friends use that phrase *all* the time (oh shoot, now I need to ask them how their visual imagination works! I already asked a blind acquantaince how they "hear" a voice in their head for a research paper--fun fact, they usually "see" a hand signing. I'm hearing-impaired and my auditory imagination is ironically hyperphantasic, so I always wondered how "hearing a voice" works for someone who has never heard a voice.)
Very interesting. I've actually asked a blind woman here somewhere in the comments about it, and she says she visualizes an entire imaginary world around her. I asked if it was a bit like putting on VR goggles, and she said that sounded like a good comparison. I find all of that super fascinating as well.
Hello again! I continue to think about the way you think. Today I wondered what the world would look like if roles were reversed; what would our world look like today? And how would the people who saw/heard/and sometimes smelled or tasted, in their minds be treated in that society? Mentally ill but functional? However, it would probably be a highly organized and educated world if you are the norm! :-)
From my perspective, I would see them probably as mystical super heroes 🤣. Although, to be fair, it would probably be difficult to convince the rest of us that they're actually doing what they say. Even after talking to so many people here, a part of me still doesn't believe it because it sounds so fantastical. I imagine if the majority of people were like me, we would never believe people had these powers 🤣
Any thoughts on what a society like that would look like? All the different things that not 'seeing' would bring to a society. Much rage and anxiety are built stronger because of ruminating and playing the same scenes and words over and over in your head. Is there an analog to that, or is that simply another blessing of Aphantasia?
@@Netopia40 Honestly, I don't think it's imagery that causes problems as much as the inner voice. I think it's a lot easier to approach things less emotionally when you don't have an inner voice egging you on. It seems like the images could exacerbate the stuff from one's inner voice, but since I don't have experience with either, I'm not sure.
@@Netopia40 I think having neither images or an inner voice makes it a lot easier to approach things from the angle of just what's happening now. I think I'm pretty good at letting things go, and I think most people would describe me as pretty easygoing. But I don't know if that is just my personality. I think one problem, at least for me, so maybe this is shared, is that planning for the future is difficult. I suppose because I can't see myself doing things. So everything I think about the future is very general rather than specific.
Man, my ideas of imagination as a kid were very different! I never thought anything was real that wasn't. This is pretty disappointing 😔. I've definitely missed out on a lot.
So if I described a design for a room layout would you be able to see it to any degree? Because I have people who tell me they need a drawing BECAUSE they are visual. But when I am in deep thought mode on something I want to design, say in my offices, I am drawing mental pictures, often somewhat fuzzy, UNTIL...and then I see and know what I need to do.
If you described a room layout, it would just be a list of descriptions for me and stay that way. I wouldn't build anything in my head to go with it. Like, if you said the couch will go on the left wall, I know what you mean, and I understand what you want to do, but I'm not creating anything in my head or imagining what the couch might look like. I just know you want the couch to be on the left.
This is an interesting one. I would assume feeling and expressing love would be similar in variety to people with regular visualizing brains, but an LDR could certainly pose some differences. I can't speak for everyone with aphantasia, but I would say I definitely have a hard time remembering to contact someone after I haven't seen them for a while. I think that expression "out of sight, out of mind" is really quite literal for me. I would think in an LDR I would really need to work hard to have some sort of contact almost every day; otherwise, I would begin to forget to contact the person altogether.
Our daughter will come to us at night complaining that she can't fall asleep because she's seeing scary or sad things on her "Eye TV" and can't turn it off. My husband and I immediately knew what she meant. I imagine that would be super confusing to a parent who unknowingly had Aphantasia and thus didn't know other people were literally seeing and experiencing simulations of real and imagined events and memories in their minds.
Definitely not stupid! I think we molded our perception based on what we were experiencing. I think that's a totally normal thing to do. Just so strange and hard to wrap our heads around how different our actual experience is compared to others I think.
@@alisama Yes, I totally agree. It seems like so many things would be so much easier if I could just see it in my head! All that memorization I did in school had to have been ten times harder for me! I also feel like some things are less impressive now. Like before, I thought some movies were so beautiful and amazing. I was impressed that people could create these things from nothing. Now I think that they had everything just appear in their heads, so they didn't really have to work hard to create it. Everything for them is just there already 🤷♀️. Seems way easier. Same with plots of books and movies. If they daydream, and it just appears to them, they're not really working to create it; they're just translating it from one form to another, no? It's honestly all very strange to think about.
@@quietmindinside4808 i have issues playing a paino. I can play tunes but using both hands is hard. I learned touch typing but i couldn't tell you what the keyboard looks like to save my life. It is all muscle memory from many many hours of practice. I agree
Exactly right. Why don't 'normies' talk about their visualisations more? One would think having this superpower would be subject of continual interchange/comparison/inspiration?
@@maxpanicked1451 Perhaps you have I hadn't noticed. But why have folks with a 'functioning mind's eye' not developed a meta-language to negotiate/differentiate the imaginary-real boundary? Perhaps language of spirituality is the closest I can think of.
@@oblomov0007 Reality is vastly more 'real' and immediate than imagination. Imagination has the gravity of a tiny dust ball rolling in the corner of your vision - mostly unnoticed and not worthy of attention, until one decides to access it. Imagination never confuses itself with reality (excepting mental illness).
@@maxpanicked1451 Perhaps you have something there. If 'normies' talked more about the relationship between 'reality' and 'imaginary' lessen stigma of 'mental illness'/ religious mania etc.
@@oblomov0007 most of us "normies", as you say, don't realize that there are people who don't have imagination, thus describing the relationship is akin to describing what it's like to have a sense of smell.
I think children aren’t able to articulate images in their heads because they have nothing to compare it to. The same way you didn’t realize that you had aphantasia is because you assumed that everyone thinks the way you do. We only have our own experience to draw from.
Do you get the "it's in the tip of my tongue" feeling? I guess you do, because it doesn't really involve my inner monologue or picturing images. But maybe the feeling is different. I'll try to explain mine and see if it's like yours. So, basically when I want to say a word or a name but for the love of life it won't come out. I have it there, but it doesn't come out. It's lke I feel it there though, in the back of my head. Now, I can't force myself to have that feeling so I can describe it perfectly, but similar words kinda pop out in my head. It's pretty frustrating...
Ah, this is a good one! Yes, all the time. I'm wondering now, when it happens to you, do you get a picture, but can't assign a name to it? Like, if I said I couldn't remember the name of the actress in 'Mary Poppins', would you see her, but just not get the name? For me, I just start making associations, like a list of things I know about her. Like, she was in that Tom Cruise movie (that I don't know the name of either) and she's married to Jim from the Office. Often, I'm talking to someone when this happens, so I just spout out things until hopefully one of us gets it. Sometimes I'm just happy to know that I'm thinking of the right person, even if I can't get the name.
@@quietmindinside4808 Yeah, if I was trying to come up with her name I would probably picture her, and maybe some scenes of the movie. Even if it's a common word, like banana. I would picture a banana but I wouldn't be able to spit the name (silly example). And if I would think of the actress that plays Mary Poppins (the first one anyway) I would think about characters she's played, and I would picture scenes she's been in. Also, I would try to remember clues, like the name of the movies she's been in or interviews she's made. But you probably do that too, but without the imagery I guess. And yeah, when I'm talking with someone I would try to say things so the other person gets the answer as well
I have no internal vision and I only speak in the mind, I can't hear what I say. I had the same thing, I saw something that was saying about picturing an elephant in your head and asking how they looked to people. Seeing if it had detail or is a cartoon and such. I was like WHAT! I see nothing. I was an expression your totally right. Did you ever do maths in first school where you use colour to remember? I remember asking the teacher what's the point in colouring the pictures, it was the craziest thing as a 4 year old to be doing art not maths. I knew a little maths at that point. My mother used to count with me and things and I learned a lot of my maths from her, as school was behind and used stupid methods to educate. I don't know how to describe being able to construct a mental picture of something while the scene being totally black. Same as I speak in my head but don't hear. How do you describe that. Having a silent blank mind makes for easy meditation I guess. One question, what would you say the mental advantages of it is? Do you have a greater ability to analyse situations in full awareness? I think it's one advantage, no mental distractions. I feel most people emotions and read them very well. Also I get sleepy if I read or look at certain books or writing on a screen. I self diagnosed but it's called scotopic sensitivity syndrome. Don't know how relivent any of that is but thanks. I think we are the normal ones and people with inner vision should be labelled under aphantasia. Thanks!
I've been thinking a lot about things we did in school, too. I was wondering about word problems in math. Like "Johnny has 3 apples and Timmy has 7 apples....". I always wondered what the point was. Just extract the numbers and do a regular math equation. Now I'm wondering if there was another point to them. Were they supposed to help with math by giving ideas for visualizing the problems? I definitely have always thought I was a much more logical thinker than most. I've never been one to be distracted by unnecessary details. Perhaps this is due to the lack of visuals.
@@quietmindinside4808 The pictures and colours are supposed to reinforce the memory. Doesn't work with us. What about copying something off a board in school, I always thought that was pointless, they say it reinforces the learning. But I learned it the first time so it just annoyed me. I found I see a whole picture and chose to focus on something specific. When I would fix machines, I would stand away from it and watch the entire thing work, and my mind would guide me where to look for the problem. Don't think people I worked with could do that. I also used to have a crazy thought process that never stopped, I remember telling people as a teenager, I can't stop thinking for more than 2 seconds, something would always pop in. I actually fixed that though over the years. No real intrusive thoughts at all. So I am almost always present and attentitive to everything going on. I don't think before speaking so I actually don't access memory really. I know words are from memory, but I don't have to access to use it same as most people. So my mind is hardly used, where as a "normal person" spends all day in the mind. When someone is speaking to me, I am only listening until the time to respond comes, no judgements or pre questions. I know this is unusual because people can become uncomfortable from the constant observation and attention. My head is constantly looking around and that's unusual from what I perceive in other people. It's like the kid with no xbox spends all day outside. We 100% need altered education for different children now. I wonder what's the best way for us to learn? I am a monkey see monkey do kind of guy, so I learn a new task very fast but often find different ways to do it, others don't think of. These are the variables of my mind that I see presented through my life. Don't know if any will assist you but every account will help in collating of data I guess.
@@manavestnation I definitely work better if I can see something first. I think I'm very direct with my learning too. Like, I want to focus on the results more than going off on tangents. I like having clear tasks and completing them. I definitely felt like a lot of learning "steps" we had to do in school were a waste of time, and I didn't understand the point of them. For example, I remember having to write outlines before writing papers, and I could never really do them. I just wanted to write the paper. When I write, it just comes out. Planning it feels really awkward. I would usually write my paper first and then the outline after, based on what I'd already written. And I'm also very focused in conversations. I've learned to look away sometimes because I know I can make some people uncomfortable.
May I ask your first name, as I haven't caught it yet and I feel silly calling you QMI (or written out). I'm Joe, pleased to have met you. Could you share with us the things in life that you find most difficult to do? Not physically like dig a ditch, but mentally, like drawing/painting without a model of what you are painting, or thinking through a bunch of random facts looking for connections between them, or new and novel ways to pulling in everything you know about a subject and then seeing if they can be used in a new way to become more efficient... or even making a grocery list... I don't know. But I thought that speaking about things you find difficult may expose aspects that wouldn't occur to us to ask about.
It's Courtney 😄. Well, anything artsy is difficult for me, but I don't know how much of that is just because I didn't really care to do much with it. It was never my interest. It's hard to separate what is from my aphantasia and what is just my personality. But I do think learning languages is harder for me. I can't translate things in my head because I don't have an inner voice, and I can't see words or characters either. When I learn a language, I learn phrases verbatim, and I have difficulty rearranging them. If someone says something to me in a foreign language, even if I know every word, if it's in an order I'm not used to, I have no idea what they're saying. I might get a flicker of a main idea, like they're asking about a drink or something, but the total meaning is lost.
Courtney, that’s very interesting about languages, something I rather enjoy learning. I can understand the roadblock. Even systems that are based on images (like DuoLingo and Rosetta Stone) require a match between image and foreign word. Since you can’t pull the image back up, I could see where even those could be an issue. One of my greatest curiosities is how you can ‘wonder’ about things or put disparate things together. How would your rate your inventiveness? Do you program? How do you problem solve; does it require paper and pencil? Many things in my life come from an initial thought that starts with the words “I wonder if…” and then I set about reasoning (mental dialogue) about if something is possible, or if certain combinations of things would be more feasible, or something is currently working fine, but I let my mind drift through possibilities for change that might make something more efficient… but all of these things require me to open my conscious thought to a flow of thoughts which I pick and choose items from. More like having the things you know on a bookshelf and being able to select something, try to apply it to the current situation, and then dismiss it if it doesn’t work, and pick something else that might be a better choice. Of course, the ‘things on the shelf’ are only things that apply to the situation. If I’m wondering if there’s any way I could get better gas mileage in my car, my mind would not put apples, swim suits, or flowers on the shelf… only things pertaining to the current thought. And there is no visualized shelf, that’s just metaphor. I do my best thinking in the shower, where my body is warmed and relaxed, there are no distractions, and what I have to do in the shower is rote action… I’ve taken a shower so many times in my life that shampooing and washing are done completely on autopilot; my mind is free to wander. When I decide to take a longer shower is where the thinking comes in, just relaxing under the warm water and thinking. Here’s an example: tl;dr I think a lot of details and make connections from diverse subjects. About a year ago I decided to take a long show and was just standing there and remembered an ad on Facebook for some company that was selling fruits and vegetables that were ‘too ugly’ for supermarkets. There was nothing wrong with the items, just that they were funny looking and that supermarkets don’t want that produce. So… I started thinking about who might make use of ugly produce, and an image started to grow in my head. I had read about ‘food deserts’ being a real thing in some inner cities. I realized that if there was a small store that sold only ugly produce, it could sell the produce for dirt cheap and provide a way for people in the greater neighborhood to add healthy and delicious food to their diets. And I just let my mind continue to float around the subject and let it play out in my mind. I thought about how a store like that could be robbed, so I imagined (and worked out the details) of making this a credit/debit/foodstamp cards only place. No cash, nothing to rob. I thought about how I would only employ people from the greater neighborhood, so that the people coming in to buy would know the people working so that it quickly became part of the neighborhood and not just another ‘store’. I realized that since the idea of the place was to provide food and not specifically to make a profit, revenue could be focused on development of the people who work there; personal development courses, management courses, studying habits,… you name it. Make courses mandatory for any raises and the coursework could be done ON THE CLOCK. The purpose of the place was to bring life, not wheelbarrows of money. How could I do this? Mind floating everything I knew about money… and eventually I realized that this could simply be a non-profit to start with. And with the philosophy of the place, I decided that it would probably be easy to get government grants…. Heck, city councils would probably try to provide every bit of aid they could to get something like that started. I worked out a ton more details in my head, right down to how we could open a second store in another food desert. And then I started thinking about names and finally chose “The Oasis” as the name. Then entire ‘day dream’ (which is what it is) took about 20-30 minutes. But 100% of this was done consciously and visualizing things like what the store would look like, seeing happy members of the community chatting and buying food and talking about new recipes they can cook and the like, seeing the room where I would have computers available for studying… etc. All of this came by allowing my brain to just ‘wonder’ about things. To open my mind up to all the possibilities and see what I could build from all the “parts” that were already in my brain in order to come up with something new or better. Sadly, I rarely do anything with these thoughts in the real world. My idea above, I believe, is a solid one… but I will often have these flights of fancy, really like the idea, but never follow up. Sad. However, the process is incredibly enjoyable. So I’m left with the question; How do you ‘wonder’ about things without conscious thoughts bringing them together in your mind so that you can examine, change, improve… etc?
@@Netopia40 Wow, that's really interesting. It sounds a lot like a Bojack Horseman clip somebody suggested I watch. There's a similar scene where his mind wanders like this - thinks of one thing, which leads to something else, and so on. I asked my husband, and he said his inner voice is like that to, which is why he often forgets things 😄. Yeah, my brain just doesn't work that way. 🤣 Perhaps similar things are going on subconsciously in my mind, but I'm just not aware of it. I still get ideas - those light bulb moments - but perhaps I'm just getting the last step in the internal wanderings? All my thoughts are silent and conceptual in my head, so it's just not possible to follow them in the way you can follow yours. If you ask me a question, I know that I'm processing the related information in my head to get my answer; I can feel it. (My mind feels different when I'm processing something and when I'm just "being", I'm not sure if that's normal or not) I'm just not consciously aware of each piece of data. I know I wonder, as I often come up with things to share with others, which wouldn't be possible if I was just stagnant all the time, but it's just silent and conceptual like everything else. Problem solving has never been an issue. Maybe I'm not as inventive as others though. I love, love, love logic puzzles. Especially those grid ones. (I buy all those books at the grocery store when I visit the states 😄) I do write a lot when I do them. That was actually one of the first things my husband asked about when he found out I can't visualize and talk to myself in my head. He couldn't understand how I did them. We actually talked about timing ourselves doing one to see how we compare. We should really do that 🤔. And I suck at coding 😄. Again, I'm not sure if it's just because I don't have a lot of interest in it or not. I took a Pascal class back in high school, and I could not get my final project to work! I tried taking an online Python class, but I lost interest pretty fast because the lessons and assignment topics weren't matching right. Perhaps if I could find a good instructor, I would enjoy it. I'm really not good at teaching myself. I prefer to have a teacher explain things.
I'm with you on preferring a teacher. I can learn most things pretty evenly between listening, watching, and doing, but I ALWAYS prefer to have someone that I can ask questions of as we go along. One of the reasons I specifically brought up programming is because it is also 'language', with verbs, nouns, adjectives, and adverbs... just worded differently. It also requires that you know what the end product must look like (or behave like) and it helps if you know all the 'words' and 'grammar'. I still have to take notes whenever I'm programming and heavily document my code with comments, but the process for me is very much like the creation of "The Oasis".
@@Netopia40 The language comparison is interesting because in my coding class I was very good at following directions or creating code that would do something the teacher specified. It was the open ended project that I couldn't do. Seems very similar to my problem learning other languages for sure.
It’s raining cats and dogs... I can see cats and dogs going all around but than I think it means it’s rainy really hard than I can think of some hard rain... Now can you read fast...that’s weird... reading fast and processing fast...that’s so weird... you just think and go... I have to think than go... So you AND and I THAN... weird...
@@quietmindinside4808 it's called "Auditory-tactile synesthesia". Again, maybe that's why I'm so shocked about the lack of an inner monologue thing. I've known and read about synesthesia for about 5 years or more now. And aphantasia since 2 years ago. But the inner monologue thing was easily one of the most shocking things I've ever learned about the human brain as an adult. Since mine never really shuts up. Having a quiet mind is IMPOSSIBLE for me to conceptualize.
@Quiet Mind Inside I wonder if you would be willing to write a very short fictional story for us? And if so, maybe you could try to add as many of the five senses as possible into the story?
@@quietmindinside4808 all good either way! I would be totally embarrassed, to be honest, but I don't know you well, so I don't know how you feel about it. I am so excited and interested to be part of this severely under-studied phenomenon!! Thank you for sharing :-)
@@quietmindinside4808 I was trying to imagine without imagining, and I sorta felt like I was succeeding. Like by accessing the idea itself instead of the associated picture. I'm starting to get an inkling of what aphantasia is, I think..?
I never saw any monsters. I could get that creepy feeling that something was there that I couldn't see, though. Like you're being watched. That's how I imagined monsters. Things I couldn't see that could come grab me. Is it normal to project monster images into your closet or something? I never really thought about it.
@@quietmindinside4808 Yup. I would imagine ghosts or aliens or the monsters I'd see on TV everywhere all the time when things got dark. It was quite terrifying.
@@quietmindinside4808 It wasn't always easy. Often I would try to stay as still as possible, hoping the monsters wouldn't see me. My body would relax as a result and I'd slowly drift to sleep. I remember one night I felt something touching my legs, and I was terrified. I thought I was being probed by an alien. I lifted the blankets to face my fears to find it was my kitten who had been locked in my room with me. What a pleasant relief!
is it possible to question your own thoughts? you talk a lot about how you just know things. but are you able to question and analyze the things you say you "know?"
This is so interesting! I recently found out about aphantasia and I found your channel today. How do you think about time and numbers? I always picture a wheel sort of like a clock in my head starting at 3 o’clock my vision field for January and going counter clockwise in a circle all the way back to around 4 o’clock for December and I have a number line for years. When someone says a year, I can visualize it in a space within my vision field. It is really hard to explain.
My husband has learned to be patient with me. I have zero sense of the passing of time. I wear a watch, carry my phone everywhere and set multiple alarms and still miss timings.
