Find it at Frontline Foam: www.frontlinefoam.com/product/gryphon/?sld=8 Sweetheart Storm AEG blaster shown in this video: USA Link: www.frontlinefoam.com/product/sweetheart-storm-fb-1-2-0-plus/?sld=8 Australian Link: www.foamwork.com.au/product/sweetheart-storm-2-0-pre-order-/8 Recommended Battery: www.frontlinefoam.com/product/3s-1300mah-45-90c-lipo-xt-60-connector/?sld=8 Flygonial Printables page: www.printables.com/model/208101-the-gryphon-foam-dart-blaster If you would like to see the jammed dart, check out this photo: www.dropbox.com/s/r1qqslv8i4c2g51/received_1443264529771563.jpeg?dl=0
@@richfromtang this is not the only flywheel blaster I've used before. I could easily swap it out for a ridiculously expensive FDL-3 and come to the same conclusion. At a higher price point, AEGs perform the same role of high RoF while also having better accuracy than a flywheeler. Does that mean no one should use flywheel blasters? Absolutely not. I specifically mentioned in the video that the price of flywheel blasters is much lower currently than AEGs. They also make great sidearms. It's not biased opinion that HPA or AEGs have high rate of fire while also having better accuracy than flywheel blasters. They just are that way.
@@BradleyPhillipsYT the FDL3 is an older brushless design at this point, but they weren't expensive because of their performance, but rather because they had all sorts of fancy features like ROF control, select fire, variable brushless motor speed and lots of customization. I also don't think that gryphon was super unbalanced, it's loud because it's dual stage. My unbalanced dual stage sounds way worse and still hits over 200 with some sense of accuracy. The issue I have with flywheelers is usually the manufacturing variance of motors and flywheels, but the banned blasters stuff fixes a lot of those issues. If you want to take a look at their dual stage gryphon cage, you could easily swap it for the one that's already in your gryphon.
@@legoboy-ox2kx preferably I would like to test a BCAR flywheel setup once those become more mainstream. I think it's only fair that if I revisit flywheel blasters in the future, that it's the absolute best flywheel blaster you can get.
I think that AEGs’ are the best of springers and flywheel. Right now, there aren’t very many AEGs’ on the market but in a couple years they could definitely be the dominant type of blaster.
Flywheels have a place. AEG's still aren't that common from what I've seen, but I agree AEG is theoretically best of both worlds. I play at a 200 fps indoor field and find my single stage FDL to be plenty accurate at the ranges encountered there and it has always been perfectly reliable. I tend to use my FDL more than my caliburn since I like the faster gameplay.
This. My MK3 with Banned Blasters Banshee cage is 200fps and works brilliantly for indoor gym games. That being said a bunch of guys from my local group got sweetheart storms and they are sweet indeed! The price point is prohibitive at this time though. AEB is the future, but we're not there yet. My personal pipe dream is for x shot to release a mass-market AEB.
The only thing for me about the AEG blasters is there appears to be no need to "prime" or essentially turning all blasters into semi or full auto... Kind of like eliminating the manuel transmission from a car; less involvement. That said, given the choice between am AEG and a Flywheel blasters, I'd definitely choose the AEG. Can't stand the flywheels 🙂
Personally I believe that flywheels do have a place in CQB environments. This is because of the quick suppressive fire and how compact flywheelers can be compared to AEG’s. The revving doesn’t bother me much because usually I noticed that you would get noticed with a springer anyways at my group and the rev doesn’t give as big of an alert compared to other blasters as you might think given that the enemy team has good communication. It does make sense that in Australia where gel blasters are also incorporated flywheelers would be more obsolete
@@BradleyPhillipsYT Yes I agree. If AEG’s could go down to that size and that performance FPS wise I would think the only downside would be the complex mechanism being able to jam in harsh conditions like my group but would beat flywheels in every other thing.
As a fellow Gryphon owner, I can tell you that those motors are most likely not screwed down properly. I have the same Kepler wheels in mine, although the motors are meant for 2s, my Gryphon doesn't rattle or vibrate or anything and is actually fairly quiet. What I could recommend is taking off the wheels and taking out the motor screws and using some loctite on them and tightening the screws down really well. Had to do it for my Gryphon after a while but it helped immensely with the noise.
@@BradleyPhillipsYT I think it would help. My grypon is fairly accurate and is a nice semi auto flywheeler. I have other blasters I prefer (SBL is my preferred springer, and my Foxfire Talon Select is my preferred flywheeler) but it is really good for things like HvZ or if I'm just trying to conserve ammo
@@BradleyPhillipsYTshould definitely improve accuracy. I run a Rayven with keplers, well screwed, aligned and thread-lockered down. I am frequently surprised by its ability to reach out to ~100ft ranges. Our events are 200fps cap, but at about 160fps my Kepler flywheel blasters can all keep up with the springers on the field. Even a super accurate flywheeler demands a different, high mobility play style, and while that may work out on the nerf field it's probably always going to be harder for flywheels to keep up with gel ball. At least when someone like yourself has access to aegs
You should try the SBF by GavinFuzzy! It has bearings built into the barrel so it solves the accuracy problem because it literally gets more accurate the more you use it. It’s also relatively quiet.
I would say a flywheel blaster like this isn't intended to be used for long range. It's meant for more mid to close range engagements with the ability to fire off a lot of rounds real quick. That being said, I think I prefer springers because of the noise and the rev up time (even if it's not much) With a springer you get full power at an instant so you can fire the moment someone peaks out of cover.
I actually prefer long darts (only in flywheelers) because it adds more traction between the dart and flywheels so I tend to achieve higher fps with those. Plus accuracy with flywheelers I don’t really see the point (with where they are now) I use them as more of a spray and pray kind of blaster
@@BradleyPhillipsYT that seems to be my experience as well. I mostly have half length darts and springers, but i of the flywheelers I own I love my modifed DZP MK3 (when I have it working) because it handles both long and short darts easily, and my rival Perses might not hit half as hard but there is something so satisfying about just unleashing rival rounds everywhere, even if all it will accomplish is having fun
@BradleyPhillipsYT ahh that makes sense why it got so big and has those crazy powerful high fps nerf blasters. I'm surprised they haven't started regulating the fps on them considering a nerf dart going 300fps to the face would probably hurt more than a 200fps airsoft bb
I use a combination of a T4 "commando" as I call it and a meowser. The T4 has a 13in barrel and 15 element BCAR. It's excellent out to 30 meters. The meowser has a solenoid for semi auto and uses Banshee motors and wheels. In the opening rush of a game, I'll have 20 round magazines loaded in each. I'll carry the T4 in my off hand by the receiver and one hand the meowser to storm a position. The enemy team has to commit four springers, or an equal flywheel blaster of their own, to stop me. Three or less are simply overcome by the volume of firepower. Once the position is taken, I can mag holster the meowser, and go to the T4. Once on the springer I can control a section of the battlefield. It's with initiating close-in or defending against rushes that a fly wheeler is invaluable. But in my experience, as a pistol, and not a primary. The same goes for sniping, if my position is in danger, the side arm can easily get me out of more trouble than any springer can. So the springer is my primary. But I pair it with a flywheel side arm for certain situations.
Now that they have an auto nightingale I'm going to try using one this weekend paired with my new Harrier, I typically have a Sabre M20 a DZ mk2.0 and a Lepus set at about 400rpm on me. I really really want a pew pew though and that would certainly be my secondary. I had a Kestrel but wasn't strong enough for our games 250fps and some games 300fps
BCAR cages are the solution to the flywheel accuracy issue and it's a shame they've yet to catch on with the public at this time. the only designs i've seen are cages for the MHP vector and Gears' Vector(two completely unrelated kriss vector imitations). still a pretty fringe thing but a flywheeler that performs on or above the level of an AEB is possible
That will be interesting technology to see, if it can compete with AEGs that would be great. You have to remember though that AEGs have been around in Nerf mainstream for about 1 year, while flywheels have been around for ever. While it is interesting to speculate where flywheel blasters are going, where AEGs are going is anyone's guess.
AEG price is a bit too steep for me at this point.. So I use the Dart Zone MK3 fly wheel when I want to do a bit more CQB area in the arena my play group uses... but I also have a springer I use when I want to lay back and tag people from a distance.. Really depends on what I am in the mood for.
I am a recently-converted AEG lover, and adore springer all the same. Btw, love your video editing which shows the shooting + target shot side by side.
In the states the gryphon is super popular. They do really well at 200 to 250 fps events. Higher fps events yea it’s a lot harder unless it’s a brushless build at higher fps. Frontline foam also doesn’t build stuff well imo so if you have a better source they are much better and can build it cheaper by sourcing the hardware yourself. Dart wise yea anything like waffle or chili tips are just a terrible idea and prob worse for a dual stage. Anyway yea for ur games they definitely are not gonna be as good. Games like what I play at tho they definitely rock
@@BradleyPhillipsYTFor higher FPS builds like the Banshee cage it isn’t recommended to use waffles. I’m assuming it’s because the head gives too much crush and risks burning out. That’s probably why narrow head springer darts are now what’s used. It’s also interesting to know it’s easy to go to 200 FPS now with the banshee cage.
Interesting. Tbh, I like flywheels and springs equally, as both fill different roles. For me, springers are kind of like a "bolt action" rifle, whilst flywheels are more, "smg style" Different horses for different courses. Until aeb come down in price of course. Thing is, looking back over the last six years, getting s springer up past about 100 fps used to take a lot of quite skilled modding abilities, whilst getting a flywheel blaster over that was relatively easy in comparison. Is that why we still use them, because we always have?
It's interesting that you brought up time frames. Flywheel have been around for ages, springers have been around for ages. AEG/AEB are relatively new in terms of actually good ones. So regarding that price, we'll have to see how that comes down over time.
Nowadays, since AEG and HPA blasters exist / are common, flywheels don't have much merit, but they used to be competitive when they were the only option for high rate of fire and you had to choose between accuracy (springer) and rate of fire (flywheels), but now you can have both
Facts, I went to an event here in July with My new Gyphon, and it totally gave away My placement. Used it for 1 round before I switched it to My aeon pro w/pump kit. Great vid mate!
Sorry, but this video is anything but fair or honest about the capabilities of the technology OR this particular blaster platform. What is depicted here is almost strictly a combination of builder incompetence, user error, misapplication, and furthering of old misconceptions on all fronts. To address points in no particular order: * That build even sounds like it is about to explode. That shouldn't be the case with any kind of modern machined flywheels for this type of blaster. Things are clearly not well fitted at all. * Yeah, that velocity consistency is downright bad. Part of that can probably be attributed to a slapdash mechanical build. Maybe some to ammo quality/type. The rest, to using dual stage when a more aggressive single stage would be a better choice for that velocity. * The malfunction might be attributable to poor cage assembly, although it is worth noting that DC driven flywheelers by nature require flywheels to install axially onto shafts and hence conventional cages can't have groove fillers which leaves them vulnerable to this type of malfunction due to poor constraint. The fact that it resulted in a motor burnout on video has fault split 2 ways. One, highly aggressive DC motors like that are stall-intolerant and lack any ready means of protection against rapid burnout in that case; two, when that happens with a MANUALLY controlled blaster, the user makes all the difference to whether there is harm or not. You stayed on the switch for a second or two too long. * The noise issue/"Giving away position"/"Angle grinder" aspect: again, (1) that rattletrap Frontline Failure build quality and/or dodgy set of flywheels that are poorly balanced; (2) Operator skill aspect. A manually controlled flywheeler SHOULD NOT ever be sitting at full speed making noise for any time, it should sound exactly like an AEG, or like a single-trigger automated flywheeler, making noise ONLY when fired. With torquey motors for good response there is NO need to "pre-rev" shots OR to stay on the switch between semi-auto shots. (3) Large format flywheel systems exist, which don't require such high and irritating speeds and greatly mitigate noise issues, and you have a video about one such platform (FDL-3) from 4 years ago. * The accuracy issue: (1) well, with velocity inconsistency like that, what do you expect, those are going to scatter all over. This is not remotely a "inherent flywheel technology problem", it's this build. I just shot a chrono string with one of my T19 that was 195fps with a SD of 1.9, how is that? (2) I think that 100 foot test is a mismatch between the ballistics you are shooting here and the range you are engaging at. 175-ish honest fps with some relatively light dart tips (on short foam to boot, for even less mass) is out of its effective range. The fact you needed THAT much elevation should drive that home. * "Because this is 3D printed, I would not advise dropping this blaster, or leaving it in the hot sun, ..." - Way to perpetuate nerf 3D printing myths. In reality, 3D printed parts can be very strong and resistant to the same temperatures as any other plastic part. You may have a point about this specific build, but the solution to this is to (1) DO NOT USE PLA FOR BLASTER PARTS!! and (2) slice appropriately. Both things that this vendor does not obey. You are an experienced hobbyist and you have NO excuse to attribute these weaknesses to "3D printing" as a technology. The problems are incorrect material selection and underdesign. These can affect ANY plastic part no matter how it is manufactured. * "if you still use those for some reason" - If you use flywheel blasters with intent to actually make them good instead of just as an aside to springers, you should at least consider using them (full length darts that is, for readers). They give you: Better magazine feed reliability, which is important to things whose primary purpose is to go brrrrr on full auto. About 0.2g of extra mass with any given tip. More flywheel grip, hence tending to increase critical velocity despite the extra mass (representing an even more significant MUZZLE ENERGY gain, which is what actually matters). Better constraint/attitude control from the necessarily slightly overbored control bore/barrel in your cage - while only part of the total dispersion is mechanical/internal to the blaster in the first place (rest is aerodynamic instability of the dart), it may end up greatly helping the sort of accuracy issues depicted here in concert with fixing the velocity consistency. Obviously, my experience with flywheel tech is radically different. Admittedly, a T19 versus a DC driven standard format blaster is not really a fair comparison, but to me my blasters are not "flywheelers" and are not defined by some limitation of the technology itself. They are just a black-box blaster that puts darts up to safety limits at most games and/or approaches their aerodynamic range envelope about as competently as has been managed up to this point by any means. I take particular issue with the pushing of AEGs; AEGs are complex, expensive, structurally demanding, and just the fact that they are barreled blasters makes them questionable (even manual springers can have issues in my locale). Indeed reliability and climate insensitivity is a significant strong point of flywheel tech as much as that is NOT represented by jamming a dodgy FF gryphon. I think you need to take a more earnest/intent look at flywheel blasters actually doing some research, experimenting with more stuff, taking the effort to tech problems out of your builds, and questioning internet wisdom (like using short darts in flywheelers, for instance). This video comes off like you set this up to look as bad as reasonably possible and the mention of Flygonial and the blaster system by name winds up feeling more like slander than like attribution as a result.
I can only base my opinion on flywheel blasters off of what I have actually seen. The four that I have owned could all be swapped into this video with a similar outcome.
Someone once told me that my Flywheel blaster sounded like an old vacuum cleaner…. And now I can’t thank of anything else when I hear that noise…. I have been a springer guy since.
What a great controversial video from a not #flywheelmastereacer! Solid points of why many people prefer springers over flywheelers. When stealth is important, most people either use springers for high fps games, or sneak up close with a flywheeler and then unload. I’ve found worker darts to get higher fps, but generally a lot worse accuracy than waffle darts like the chili’s. Which is interesting because in our shop, we’ve found chili darts to be the best by far. Granted, we test @50 feet and not 100ft. I do personally like HPA/aeb better than flywheelers for anything further than 50 feet or so. At that point, a full auto flywheel mag dump can be effective. A bad dart or feed can ruin your day with a flywheeler. Springers are more forgiving in the case of a jam. What happened on that jam was we sent used darts. So that dart that jammed likely had a loose head and wasn’t checked before loaded in the mag. If the glue is coming undone from one side of the head, good chance of a jam. For whatever reason (it wasn’t shipped that way), the flywheels do sound a little less balanced than usual. However, it’s still similar in loudness to a dual stage banned blaster cage. A lot of flywheelers start out quieter and more balanced, but as they’re used, can become unbalanced, or even during shipping. This is probably what caused some of the inconsistency. I’d actually concur with the comments here that something may be off with that gryphon based on the results and sound of the cage. But I doubt it was that way when it first left the shop. We don’t pass qc on flywheelers that are noticeably unbalanced. Flywheelers are definitely loud, but this one seems especially bad. Although I’ve noticed even a regularly sounding flywheeler can give your position away even from the games I’ve played. When stealth is important, most people either use springers for high fps games, or sneak up close with a flywheeler and then unload. So yea. This Gryphon for whatever reason sounds a bit off. But I don’t believe it would change the results of this video, but maybe make it less polarized by a little bit. But not a ton @100ft.
Yeah, I really don't think even a better flywheel blaster would have really changed the outcome of this one. I play against what is essentially "better flywheel blasters but with infinite ammo" every week and still often choose a springer, let alone an automatic springer, over those. Appreciate the clarity with your post though!
Nice Video Brad. I dont use flywheels because it removes stealth, looses accuacy at any range over 15m... I love it when people say to me I dont need it to shoot further than that because I can mag dump you, which I find halarious, coz if you have to mag dump to hit a target, your not a very good shot to start with. AEB are the future in our hobby space, and once they gain traction in the hobby, and the prices start to come down, you will see flywheels fall by the wayside, as a natural progression in our hobby. I have seen some flywheels are hitting 300fps+ but i cant see how usable it would be at range, being that flywheels have always had a horrible spread. I think flywheels have a place as a pistol, at close range. But thats about it.
All depends on how you approach the hobby. Most people are in it for none competitive fun and for the modding and creativity aspect which is why flywheels will always be popular. You can 3d print any blaster shape to go around them or you can mod a preexisting blaster to get some more fps. Aegs and hpa are for people who want to play airsoft but can't. That's why they haven't taken off in the us. Most people don't want 300 fps or to spend 500 bucks on a single blaster
Yep I prefer the springers (Harrier/Kirin ) AEGs (Storm 2.0/cw76) with a nightingale sidy for quicker loading and one trigger pull with not much rev up time
I could never get behind the rev trigger and the sound. Even in a cqb setting where stealth isn't as important, 20 rev triggers going off was just annoying. When I got the old FDL 2 ( cutting edge for it's day) I liked the fact that it was programmed without a rev trigger but I soon put it down and went back to springers. HPA is the best but cost and restrictions make it difficult to justify. SO I am waiting a year when a 3rd generation of AEG comes out and is half the price of todays offering.
flywheels definitely have a place. Mostly as a good last ditch side arm. but brushed flywheel blaster honestly just are a bit of fun. I personally prefer manual springers for the reason that they are more conservative with ammo, more accurate and don't cost an arm and a leg. High fps flywheelers are pointless but in a stock or 150 fps they can be pretty good for rattling off shots quickly. Like an Aeg isn't all too amazing in HVZ but a well placed flywheeler can be devastating. they are great for clearing rooms or hallways of zombies quickly and yeah... AEG's are nutty expensive so if you want high rate of fire and cheap you'd go flywheeler and I agree... dual stage flywheelers could definitely be made more reliable.
I agree that the comparisons to the storm are a little rough since that is over twice the cost, but comparisons to the Harrier are totally fair, like he mentioned in the video, they're both very similar in price. The Harrier is a very, very good blaster for its price but there are still others like the Sabre Apex Prime that are ridiculously high quality. Also, from what I can gather from the nerf community, the gryphon seems to be one of the most widely used and modified flywheel platforms so I'd say it's pretty high up there in terms of quality for flywheelers. Flywheel blasters definitely do have a place in the hobby but it's impossible to argue that they can compete with any springer in terms of range and accuracy, even my 25 dollar dart zone springers shoot more consistently than all my flywheelers
I think flywheelers have a use. It's up-close and speedy gameplay. Most flywheelers I've seen are shorter and more agile. The Venom Pro especially seems to realize what it wants to be. It's small, cheap, and auto-fire capable. It makes noise but revs fast so you don't have to keep the rev going so you can still sneak up on someone and by the time someone would hear the flywheels you will already be firing on them. The biggest thing to me is I definitely don't have the budget for an AEG, even the $160 range BK1S. So a $30 flywheeler in a pistol configuration with full-auto is incredibly enticing. That being said if you can afford the AEG, go for it. All the benefits of a flywheeler with a lot less downsides apart from cost.
I feel that there are two broad categories of flywheelers, and we should talk about them separately. Short dart secondaries that run the same darts as a springer primary are great, especially if they can also run the same mags. There's nothing quite that small and fast, so they have their place as ideal sidearms. Full-length multi-stage primaries are the ones that could be displaced by AEBs if the costs can be brought down. They might remain competitive with BCAR cages, but it all really depends on how much AEBs can bridge the gap.
Flywheelers like the Nightingale are great for kids (I love them too!), as it's simply point and shoot with no pre-revving, as opposed to springers, which my boys and their friends so often don't pull/push the prime back/forward fully, resulting in a jam, which quickly ends the blaster game in frustration. They love my old Stampede too for the same reason as the Nightingale - bring on more AEGs ;)
I definitely prefer single trigger flywheelers like my old FDL-3. I think a springer is probably more kid friendly depending on age, particularly manual springers as there's not much that can go wrong.
I think the nightengale is to be adored, as it's tiny size is impressive, and it hits 120 fps easily. Also the pewpew by pewtek is another example of why flywheels really have an edge in compact size, even if they have less performance in higher end price points.
Pure science on your video, totally agree with you, but since I'm in Brazil and even Dart Zone blasters aren't sold here, the best thing I have for now it's my Stryfe. I hope that at least the new XShot pro blasters come around someday.
Why people use Flywheelers in a nutshell: #1 Cost: Flywheelers are cheaper high rate-of-fire option than AEGS since they been around longer. As for springers, they’re a cheaper high accuracy option. #2 For games capped below 200-180ish FPS volume of fire is more important than accuracy and flywheelers have generally faster rate-of-fire than AEGS and almost always faster than manual springers. However in spite of my reasonings I’m still in springer gang; hopefully one day I can have the cash flow to graduate to AEG / HPA gang or they become more mainstream and cheaper.
I use flywheelers at kid friendly 130fps games. On single stage they are more reliable and because of the FPS cap the engagement range is low anyway. At high FPS I use springer/HPA
That makes sense, though I think you can swap in a Nexus Pro stock spring to the Sweetheart Storm for example and get below 130fps. At medium ranges you may see an accuracy benefit, while of course at point blank it doesn't matter.
I do want to mention that the failure mode you saw in the video where the dart got stuck in a groove between the wheel and cage is specific to high-concavity wheels (IE: Keplers) and can be addressed in brushless builds. Sometimes called 'groove fillers', these basically plug the gap in the cage. With brushed motors, there's physically no way to actually install the wheels if you have groove fillers in your cage, hence the vulnerability. The jam you got was possible but much less common before when mild concave wheels were the best you could get, which does go to show some of the costs we see from flywheel advancement even if most of the time when this happens it's a freak accident :(. At the end of the day, what we can see from the hours of gameplay footage you've put out from now that clearly flywheel blasters can't keep up with your playstyle and that's more than fair at the end of the day. I do feel AEGs will end up being the most well-rounded blasters in the long run (and we see them getting slapped with lower velocity caps in some competitive formats in the US too, which seems to bridge the gap a lot. Of course, I'm biased as a flywheel developer myself but I really do feel the point about reliability still stands for flywheelers. There's just a lot less that can go wrong when feeding darts, a lot less dependence on foam thickness, the humidity and temperature, your barrel set-up (though dart quality absolutely does have a significant effect on flywheel performance). HvZ is nowhere near what it was a decade ago, but it's one use case where having a flywheel primary is arguably the best you can get, and this would apply even if you (somehow) played a game with higher velocity caps. I do agree that things aren't looking great for flywheelers in PvP as full-fledged primaries, however. Springers have really widened the gap in accuracy over the last several years, and the rate of fire advantage is looking to only be relevant past 14-15 DPS. Though it may turn out to be nothing, I feel besides further BCAR development (which is uncertain to close the gap by enough) that using a "hyperburst" of sorts with flywheels may be the future. We can see ultra-high ROF solenoids (ie, used in Momentum) and with very controlled or a programmed 2-3 round burst for example we could see hit probabilities go up. Of course, someone would still need to use a more aggressive playstyle that could really take advantage of the shorter barrel, often lighter weight, and stupid ROF.
There was a time where I was using the FDL-3 for superstock games and found that a 3 round burst equalled the accuracy of a springer. While that wouldn't give an advantage over an AEG, burst fire would still be a valid method of keeping up with manual springers. Have you any designs that shoot higher velocity more reliably than the Kepler setup? I would love to test a flywheel blaster one day that could compete at 300fps velocity levels.
@@BradleyPhillipsYT The Gryphon can take Banned Blasters' Banshees, and with two-stages it'll average just under 300 with some darts. I can't speak for if it'd necessarily be more reliable. The Keplers have a unique geometry that might be more prone to this jam failure (just for leaving more room between the cage and the wheels, but I'm only speculating). It's hard to design around these as well because Banshees are now the largest flywheels on the market and the amount of room needed in a Gryphon cage for this spacing goes up to accommodate for that, also leaving more room for a dart to get pinched for wheels like Keplers or even smaller wheels. I haven't designed anything that is capable of improving upon reliability in that aspect, but I do think it could hypothetically be possible with a single-stage only design that uses a barrel insert that is specifically shaped to act as a groove filler. If a two-stage cage can be separated down the middle and then bolted back together with groove fillers installed, that would be great but I can see many more potential problems. Ideally, flywheel set-ups have both stages as close as possible, and that leaves very little room to make a solid mount for groove fillers. There are also many potential problems with wheel alignment which is critical to flywheel accuracy and also very finicky to tune. I've currently been designing a takedown blaster similar to the Gryphon but unfortunately the uniqueness of the design would keep me from implementing these features. I think that I may actually put out an experimental Gryphon cage that implements it at least for one-stage.
I prefer springers all day, not just because they overall preform better but there’s no need to constantly swap and charge batteries as well as the constant care lipos require. Your springer is always ready! On a side note did you hear what’s up with the worker bamboo darts? Everyone in the states quit selling them, are they done with them or coming out with a new version? Those darts were so amazingly consistent and accurate and now we can’t get them.
"Do not leave it in the hot sun, or in your car, as the plastic will melt." I found that part very funny because it would have to be 200C° outside. Overall a very informative video and I found it helpful.😉
While the melting point is 200C, the temperature required to irreversibly warp it is significantly lower. Around 60C. Quite attainable inside a car or left in direct sunlight.
I feel like the most use you can get out of a flywheeler is a cheap sidearm like Woozi or the Worker Nightingale. High rate of fire in a compact package that you can pull out quickly and start spraying for sh*ts and giggles :) BTW, do you know if the new X-shot Pro Longshot is coming to Australia? I've been trying to find information on this but can't find anything. It was released in UK but nothing in Australia so far
Flywheel blasters are just for the fun of full auto spraying too much darts and still missing everything :D. For serious more tactical stuff i use a good springer. Also no batteries needed :)
I've been using a modded rapid strike as a secondary when I have to move from my position. Why is because it's a dart hose. I just point and spray foam darts in the direction I was pointing at. No need for precision when it can do 15 darts a second. It's quickness makes it ideal when people appear out of nowhere or around corners. Also nice for clearing a place with multiple targets grouped together. Other than that springers for the win.
I have been using a banned blasters cage in my gryphon for about a year and I I have really been enjoying it. The sound from it is far better than a dual stage setup and it hits up to 200 with just a single stage. The accuracy is also pretty good. Maybe give banned blasters stuff a shot.
Also most high crush setups can only use narrow headed darts but you already figured that out. It’s the same as most springers since something like a chili dart with its broader tip will rub on the barrel causing fps loss.
@@BradleyPhillipsYT yeah. I’ve been strictly using my gryphon for all this time so I do kinda baby it since it’s one of my best blasters. Blasters like the gryphon need to be treated gently, at least compared to a sweetheart storm.
@@BradleyPhillipsYT I also have a banshee cage and it is significantly better than other flywheelers that I’ve used. I did a video about swapping one into a dartzone pro mk3 but they make them for gryphons, stryfes, rayvens and a growing list of other blasters.
I love my Gryphon. It isn’t a sniper rifle and instead is good for the CQB-style game play where you basically see the entire other team the entire game.
This video has made me hate flywheel blasters. And I love flywheel blasters. Lol. I think their only purpose is as a sidearm for mid to close range when, like you said, you've screwed up and let someone too close. Maybe AEG Master Race? I always loved the Stampede, but haven't tried any modern ones....
For the price of entry into airsoft at the fps and accuracy levels of a nerf AEG there is absolutely no comparison, and if you want big gunfight events and milsim, or even small skirmishes just invest in airsoft, a well preforming 300-350 fps AEG airsoft rifle goes for about $200-250 if you aren't paying for a brand name. In addition, the Professional airsoft community is much larger and as such, so are the events. I have no issue with nerf, I think it's great, but if you are going to sink thousands of dollars into an AEG loadout just play airsoft instead.
#flywheelmasterrace for life. I have a Harrier and a Phoenix mk2 and I run the Phoenix as my primary. The main reason I do that is because my MS has made my hands to week to prime a high powered springer and I can't afford an AEB.
I love my Colonel Wasp 76 but its in a league of its own with full auto and its accuracy rivaling my Harrier or my Lynx nothing else in my collection can compete.
The only reason why I use flywheelers is because HPA and AEG’s are too expensive at the moment, and flywheelers have a high rate of fire compared to a springer. Flywheelers are pretty much only good for close quarters and laying down cover fire, but terrible for everything else.
i think its just that flywheel blasters perform better at a 150 fps cap. plus even with aegs having a high rate of fire, you can't beat shooting like 40dps out of a lepus or pew pew blaster if its user is fast and evasic
3d printed plastic melting in your car is a real thing. I had a SPAMF warp to the point of being un usable on a 70 degree day sitting on my passenger seat.
I settle for 120fps when using flywheelers. There's typically no need for a higher rate of fire past that distance. However, it is quite fun to go in gunz blazing with full auto when up close and personal. In my opinion, a springer can't beat that experience. Paired with that rush and aeg's being so niche, flywheelers are still highly sought after. I can't wait for the day quality aeg's are on store shelves for more reasonable prices but god knows that's not happening for at least 5 more years.
It will be interesting to see how AEGs progress in the Nerf hobby. They're already the most popular blaster kind in Airsoft and Gel Ball, and with creators like Sweetheart finally making them reliable, there's only one direction to go.
It's all about the rules package. Flywheelers are all about compromises. They aren't the best at anything but they beat the other options at one or two things (assuming Gel Balls are against the rules.)
Definitely agree there. If you fancy rate of fire over accuracy which is highly beneficial within 30ft, flywheel blasters are great. From a technology perspective, HPA and AEGs tick both boxes, though are far more expensive that some may call it pay to win.
Sometimes pull out a 200+ dual stage pulsar RS (which has burnt out several Merlins and now has Raidens) but I've gone off flywheelers. Mostly use the Harrier, Swift and Supercore builds with a NG as a sidearm. The sidearm is because my primary usually has a 15 or 20m MED.
When we used to play with a MED I still only used my springer primary, falling back when enemies got too close. That is a good reason for a flywheel secondary though.
honestly with a good cage and flywheels (banshee cage) you can make it hit great numbers and be accurate while doing it, i somewhat agree with the statements of the video. but for side arms i’ll pick microwheels all day
@@BradleyPhillipsYTMight I say that i can not fully defend my statement as HPA is illegal in my country. I really enjoy auto springers tho. But microwheel semi autos are my passion
Yeah flywheel is pretty much only good as a sidearm, where you just need to emergency spray in a general direction. And if you don't run a side arm.... Uh. No point. Just run a springer.
I'm not a fan of flywheel blasters, they only go like maybe less than 2 or 3 feet. The ones here in my local area of Canada that is, we don't get access to the fun blasters here.
I remember a while ago I read that bearing scar attachments could be used on fly wheelers since they have a lot less friction than old scars that used strings or 3D printed grooves. Would also love to see you review a pew pew, but it’s kind of just a tiny FDL with some upgrades.
Bearing scar could be used on flywheel blasters, the difficulty will be ensuring the dart leaves the flywheels dead straight every single time like a barrel in a springer would
@@BradleyPhillipsYTit can work, but you'd need to have 2 extra bearing touching the dart head before the foam leaves the wheels to ensure its getting straightened out before it's getting spinned.
I run a harrier and a holstered woozi that i love, but we dont run gelball blasters at my games. Got a Mythic on sale for $30 and fell in love. No way someone should run a flyerwheel in y'alls game type .
I think its worth mentioning that using this sort of flywheeler in comparison to conventional springers is very much comparing relatively unsolved tech to a mature one. Brushed flywheels have very little torque and RPM control, and hell, even a huge amount of brushless flywheel builds don't implement closed-loop control, which means that you're relying on supercritical friction interactions to limit your acceleration in lieu of any actual RPM reliability. Then there's the bcar/tightbore stuff other people have mentioned, along with the fact that I haven't seen that much meaningful testing with flywheel canting. I know spin doesn't create gyroscopic stability, I'm aware of polhode instability issues, but I really do think there's potential there in terms of drag inconsistencies in dart imperfections. That being said, I do always appreciate seeing your testing - more concrete data and some sense of scale is always really nice to have.
While flywheel tech is unsolved, it has been around far longer than mass produced hobby grade Nerf AEGs. Given the same amount of time to catch up, who knows what would happen both to price and ability.
@@BradleyPhillipsYT Funnily enough despite loving my flywheels, I do actually think that AEGs will win out, at the very least for middle-range gear - I think there's something accessible/intuitive/satisfying about springers and mechanical linkages that just makes people want to work on them, almost just for the sake of the work itself. Also given that the actual propulsion in AEGs has been dealt with in manual springers, I think that ROF and reliability don't have long to go before they're solved, too, except for that edge case where you reaaaaaally want that 1-second magdump that flywheels have.
im a flywheel guy personally but i dont play anything above 150. on the field i play on, my 100 fps modulus works just fine and with ekind waffles, is more than accurate enough for me.
As someone who designed, and now uses, a similar dual stage flywheel blaster, this was terrible performance both with the standard deviation and chili dart problem! hope to get a better blaster to you some day
I wonder if maybe the dual stage cage with Kepler wheels doesn't like the watermelon darts, since my gryphons all like them way better than Gen 3+ darts. FF probably sent those to you because of me! XD I'm a very effective flywheel player, but generally I only use single stage setups. Banned Blasters has a dual stage cage that can get up to 350 FPS now, but most games in the US have FPS caps between 120 and 200 FPS, so HPA is usually hitting too hot for a lot of games, even if it isn't outright banned or locally illegal to use. Springers are definitely popular, but a good flywheel setup can easily dominate on the field at a 160 FPS cap game since the rate of fire is worth the tradeoff of giving away your position. I have some gameplay footage on my channel if you want to give it a look.
When I asked Derek which darts I should use to get the most accuracy he recommended the Chili darts. Seems their range at least in half length form is a bit low in the dual stage setup.
@@BradleyPhillipsYT Hmm, well that's interesting. My single stage setups usually see a slight improvement since the heads are wider, but that's also what caused the issue you had with the dart getting stuck and burning out the motor. Also don't try to rev the motor after it gets jammed. Sometimes you can clear it and the motor won't burn out if you let off the flywheel trigger quickly enough. I only have one dual stage gryphon, but it has Daybreak wheels with Valkyrie motors going into krakens.
The banned blasters cage getting 350fps is a triple stage not a dual stage. But dual stage banned gets about 280fps and a single stage is about 200fps.
@@kingofgames234 You're right the BB dual stage has two options though, one for 250 and one for 300, the second option is 42K motors going into 78K motors, which gets 290-300 according to the product listing, but I haven't tested that one myself yet.
@@legoboy-ox2kx sorry I should’ve specified that it is about 280 with workers. I can’t speak on the other dart types and I believe adam used max darts for the product listing numbers
Wow, thank you for sharing. It's sad you didn't have a good experience with the Gryphon. 😢 I could say more but your opinion has been stated multiple times. 👍
Why is it that flywheelers largely haven't gotten beyond the accuracy issue. Most all of them hold to the StormTrooper Philosophy of "accuracy, though the number of projectiles fired."🤓 Surely, with today's technology, along with number of engineers in the hobby, close to accuracy and flywheeler, in the same sentence.
To be honest,springers are precise,flywheelers are fast,flywheelers are meant for pewing as many darts as you can in a short moment,that means its effective range will not cover over 60 feet,if flywheelers can precisely hit the enemy from over 100 feet awaynwho needs a Springer.😂
Yeah, you definitely make some good points. But the accuracy test I don't really like, a 185fps blaster doesn't have the range of a 300fps blaster. So why test them on the same scale.
I dont use flywheels, because most decent ones require the use of a Lipo... and i have strict parents who want nothing to do with any fire risks from some random Chinese battery they've never heard about ¯\_༼ •́ ͜ʖ •̀ ༽_/¯ i mean fair enough - but it means i'm a springer all-day, everyday kinda guy :) I'm currently saving up for a Worker Harrier ☺️
I normally enjoy your videos, but this one misses the mark. Having a single stage Banned Blaster cage or even a high crush Daybreak setup will get you roughly the same fps with significantly more accuracy. Also, putting a waffle head in a high crush Gryphon or any high crush setup is a huge no no. Why would you even try those? Also, most of the teams using AEG blasters got absolutely destroyed in competition this year and I can say with certainty that Flywheels and specifically the Gryphon are still extremely effective against springers and are actually handicapped for a reason.
Waffle heads were recommended to me as being more accurate, hence trying those. I am open to trying more accurate flywheel blasters in the future, however I am doubtful they would exceed or even match the accuracy of an AEG like the Storm. That would still leave the same end result of this video, that flywheel blasters are a cheaper alternative to AEGs but are less accurate.
@@BradleyPhillipsYT I would highly recommend checking out a single stage variant possibly Banned Blaster with DZ Max Darts. I might even see if I can get one to you as I took this review personally lol. Keep up the great content.
@@FatherSonFoam I'd be more than happy to test other flywheel blasters to see what they are capable of, from what I've seen though I don't think any current flywheel technology matches the accuracy of a springer or automatically self priming springer, to potentially change the outcome of this video.
For my local group nobody has aeb (g) and hpa blasters are not permited. Flywheel blasters take on the roll of storming positions to flush ppl out to be be pinged by springers🤗.
Couldn't tell you what it's like in the states, but in Canada at least AEG's would be illegal in public games, and private field games just aren't as common here.
@@BradleyPhillipsYT bold of you to assume lawmakers know anything about what they make laws for. AEG nerf blasters fall under the same legal definition as Airsoft guns here, which aren't allowed to be used in public, and public park games are the most common here. Most gel blasters are similarly not allowed to be used in public.
@@azerik92 sounds like your law makers have a lot in common with ours there. If you happen to know, is there a particular paragraph in the Canadian regulations that references Nerf AEGs specifically, or what it says in general? Are HPA blasters or LPA blasters also banned?
@@BradleyPhillipsYT mind you whether or not that law gets enforced is probably going to be pretty dependent on what the blaster looks like. Like it's very unlikely you'd get booked for using a stampede in a public park, but some blasters look less like obvious toys, and it's also going to depend on whether or not passersby are feeling nosy and whether the officers who happen to get involved are having a bad day. At the end of the day illegal is illegal, and there's always a risk of being charged and having stuff confiscated no matter how technically safe a product might actually be. Canadian lawmakers just tend to overcorrect for perceived problems.
@@azerik92 Australian law makers also overcorrect, and as we know, once legislation has been passed it's near impossible to have it undone. That's sad to hear that the Airsoft changes affect public Nerf events. Do you know whether there are any private Nerf events at all in Canada, or do people usually gravitate towards Airsoft at that point?
I think this works off of a lot of assumptions to draw a very general conclusion. You play at like, 300 FPS games. That is simply a domain that flywheel blasters cannot achieve. You're also insisting on using half darts, which especially for a high FPS build are just suboptimal, in terms of accuracy, reliability, and power. The dart choice is also held back by the fact that i don't think i've used a flywheel blaster where cut down AF Waffles weren't the best choice, but those are only available easily in the US. Dual cage builds are also generally inaccurate and more unreliable. Additionally, your playstyle is generally very defensive and immobile, traits that do not lend themselves well to a flywheeler. And all that on top of playing on a gelball field, where the gelball guns are going to be better in CQB than a flywheeler could ever hope to be. So basically, you picked a specific configuration of local game rules, blaster build, dart choice, and playstyle that gave you the worst possible result you could expect to achieve, and it gave you bad results. So of course you wouldn't use flywheelers - your use case simply makes them nonviable to begin with. But at 200 FPS games or below, flywheelers are more than fine. There are flywheel builds that are tremendously accurate in practical conditions, and are tunable to whatever power level your local scene plays, as long as it's around 200 FPS or lower, which is... most local clubs, especially here in the US. And honestly, I've had way, way more issues getting my springers to work than my flywheelers. It's just that I keep my springers around for power levels that nothing else can compete in. I use both, because they both have pros and cons. Playing with a springer generally means playing a very passive playstyle, which doesn't work when you're playing dynamic gamemodes with objectives, especially when you absolutely have to clear people out of cover to get to an objective to win. And AEGs simply cannot completely replace flywheelers right now. The achievable rate of fire for a flywheeler is something AEGs generally won't be able to achieve at a given FPS level. Anyways. I get why you wouldn't use a flywheeler, it just doesn't make sense for where you play, but you're falling into the trap of equating your gameplay experience to assume that must be true for everyone else. I play at fields small enough that you can absolutely be suppressed in position by a flywheeler in a way nothing else can, and stealth simply isn't a factor, because its an open field with deployable cover in place, theres no sneaking there. So you get all the upsides of a flywheeler, and none of the downsides. Would suggest to try and think a bit more broadly than just your specific use case. Also: Frontline Foam print quality is notoriously poor and they have historically had issues with IP theft, terrible customer service, and failure to pay royalties to creators. Would avoid using them, and definitely not recommend them for anyone.
Could you see though how swapping out a flywheel blaster in CQB for a tuned down Storm with short config and a Dart Zone Pro stock spring in it shooting under 130fps would be more accurate than a flywheel blaster?
@@BradleyPhillipsYT Sure, but at 130 FPS, who cares about precision accuracy? You're shooting at such a short distance, in order for the grouping to be larger than a torso, you'd have to have an absolutely terrible flywheel build. And if the groupings at it's effective range are well within a practical sizing, then it doesnt matter either way. Thats a whole lot of money to spend on something you're not getting really any benefit from. So at that point, its an argument of cost, but also its an argument of that flywheelers are easily DIY-able, not to mention vastly more affordable, while AEGs are neither of those things. Pop open any bone stock flywheel blaster you have lying around, print a cage off and spend $30 on motors and wheels and you have a perfectly viable superstock build.
@@BradleyPhillipsYT that's clearly not the sole reason. Like I said, the DIY-ability of flywheelers is an extremely strong point to make. But also just in terms of performance: I live in the Maryland/Virginia area. It is very hot and humid out here. Dart swell is a very real concern in sealed breech blasters. It can dramatically increase, or decrease, blaster performance depending on your setup. An over-barreled blaster can become inoperable, while an under barreled blaster can suddenly shoot 10-15 FPS hotter. They're also subject to air pressure changes depending on altitude. These were both very real issues that people who came out for Maryland Mayhem had to contend with. Theyd get here from cold, dry, high altitude locations and suddenly the blaster that shot below the FPS cap at home is now shooting too hot to use, or a blaster that worked fine is suddenly squibbing because their darts are swelling so much they're getting stuck in the barrel. These are not issues that flywheelers deal with. They're much more reliable and consistent over a broad range of climates.
I have moved from spribg to predominantly flywheel now that i have my banned blaster single stage gryphon with a bcar i designed for the front. They can be noisey but bb 42s are much quieter. I was recently blessed to beta test a brushless primary and that even quieter and more accurate again. If you sen me your address i could send you a bcar i make to try out on it. Worker he darts are the way to go for sure but foubd the black variety to be better than the reds.
I'll probably wait to see BCAR flywheel blasters fully fleshed out before testing one fully designed for that technology, rather than fit one to an older design blaster.
So what? You want some big brand to bring one out and slap it on something over priced so you can tell us all how great it is? I've seen this bscar in action. It makes springers quake in their plunger tubes. I'm sure he can put Saber branding on it to be more appealing to you?
@@thetacticalfitter5562 no, I'd like to see a flywheel blaster that surpasses the accuracy and (not as important) the rate of fire of an AEG, remembering AEGs have only been mainstream in Nerf for the past year, while flywheelers have been around forever. I am fully open to testing any flywheel blaster you or anyone else are willing to send me. My comment on waiting for BCAR flywheel blasters to be fully fleshed out was to avoid what you called in your other post an "unfair comparison".
In the past I've used other flywheel blasters, for example an FDL-3 and Worker Phoenix. While neither of these had the jamming issue I experienced here, they could both be swapped into this video for the point of showing why I don't use them and that AEGs and HPA perform the same role but better (though at a higher price).
@@BradleyPhillipsYT the issue is this blaster is using a really outdated and high risk design. You can get a pre-set banned blaster cage that’ll get you better performance with a single stage and less noise and current draw. There’s no way a dual stage full sized setup should be hitting less than 200 fps. It’s incredibly inefficient. The FF build quality criticism is that they have a reputation for cutting corners, and I’m speculating those wheels aren’t as perfectly aligned as they should be for a dual stage setup. The wide head chili/waffle darts are a good recommendation for single stage flywheelers, because if that head gets caught on anything exiting the wheels it just fishtails. If it happens in a dual stage setup you get this issue. I love flywheelers, but if you’re playing at the 300fps cap you show there’s really no point to using them. They excel when they’re at a 150-200fps cap where they aren’t getting out ranged by higher FPS blasters, and those follow up shots are much more needed. They’re fundamentally pointless for your play style
@@ryanassini4706 what I have seen is some users putting say, a stock Nexus Pro spring into the Sweetheart Storm short barrel version and getting it down to 130fps. Whether there's much range or accuracy to be gained over similar velocity flywheel blasters I don't actually know, but it's interesting indeed. Regarding the flywheel setup in my Gryphon, do you think with the best possible setup that it could match a springer for accuracy? Or at least come close?
@@BradleyPhillipsYT that is interesting about the sweetheart storm. I’d be interested to see a comparison once they become available. I have seen flywheelers against a challenger MK III at 150 fps and the flywheelers were more effective. I know the single stage BB cages are up there for accuracy but probably not what you’re used to at 30m. I’d be most interested in what the dual stage ones that can push and exceed 300 fps can do at that range, and the SBF when it comes out if it does have a BCAR integrated in the cage
True, currently Nerf AEGs are around 7rps - 12rps depending on power of the spring and gearing ratios. If you wanted to mag dump in mere milliseconds, rather than one or two seconds, flywheelers are the way to go.
@@BradleyPhillipsYT your videos are high quality and I enjoy your content, just not the airsoft style toxicity. You can win a game using full lengths or rival flywheelers, even with half darts being more accurate and flying further etc. And with the cost of some of the blasters you use, its just not accessible for a lot of people. Still, as I say, I enjoy your content overall.
@@luketanton4056you could win a game by throwing darts at your enemy. It doesn't make that the most effective tactic. Nor am I out here to say you shouldn't do it. Just to state the facts and let you decide.
As harsh as it may seem, money/disposable income is subjective. For someone like him, he can afford or at least obtain a quality > quantity approach. I personally try to balance between the 2: I try to limit my blaster purchases to 1-2 each month and make sure they’re quality blasters even if they’re expensive - albiet not ridiculously expensive like a $400+ M20 - since im running outta room to store them (most of my blasters were under $40 and take up too much space)
@@anvu27257 obviously he can afford it, that's the point. 'Oh who doesn't use half darts lol what idiots, why don't you run 400 dollar automatic springers like I do, they're better than the 50 dollar blaster you're using'
I've so far seen just one aeb match (and beat) a flywheeler for rof and it's this one ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-cUyxBcTkCRc.html. Not very war practical though. I love springers personally and the aeb is the logical next step in that. I don't like the sound they normally make though, but that's the same with flywheelers. Hpa blasters are the best theoretically but that price point is holding them back. Stringers are the greatest for 3d printing since you need practically no hardware, have no issue going between metric and imperial countries, and are very quiet, too bad they don't get high fps yet
