Why I left Germany as a Software Developer 

Thanks, Ashish!

Love your story, Trixt0r! Thanks for sharing. You should really be proud of your accomplishments and persistence!

@AshraTarek would you say there is a good chance of growth for software developers or other tech jobs in germany

Singapore is an interesting country IMO. I have only visited and there are of course a few downsides to it, but it’s on the list of countries I want to try out for a while someday. Switzerland is the more long-term option IMO. Ranks much better in terms of press freedom and governance in general although probably no country in the world is as clean as Singapore.

Singapore culture is very different from western. Things like WLB are inexistent there.

My pleasure!

Glad it was helpful!

Thanks for watching!

Let us know how it goes! 🙂 If you need help with the details, let us know.

Thanks for sharing!

Yes, I am sure that my feelings about Germany might also apply to other countries in the world that I don't know too well yet. But there is a reason my channel is called 38Countries :-)

Yes, that is probably true. If you are disciplined about spending not too much money and investing it, if you are very lucky you might become a millionaire by the end of your 30ies :-) But Switzerland has many other things to offer, even if it takes you longer to become a millionaire or if you do not care about money that much. For me it is always the fresh air, mountains and lakes that make Switzerland unique.

How can one get a job as. a developer?

Hi Peter: www.38countries.com/ch/tech-job-websites-switzerland

what does ch mean?

Check out my new video on this topic: How to Find a Software Developer Job in Switzerland: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-OHDL7OsSmrs.html More videos to come about this. Only some companies sponsor visas which you would need as non EU/EFTA.

Glad you liked it :-)

Go for it and never give up.

I understand and agree with your frustrations regarding the lack of recognition and support for tech professionals in Germany, and the disproportionate attention given to lawyers. It is unfortunate that society often undervalues the importance of the tech industry, and this definitely leads to a lack of support from society for those who really push all of us forward. Based on your experiences, it seems like you have made up your mind about leaving Germany, and I can understand why you would want to pursue opportunities elsewhere. While it's important to carefully consider all options before making a big decision like this, if you feel that your skills and contributions are not being valued in Germany, it may be worth exploring other countries that have a more supportive and thriving tech industry now, before you lose too much time. Countries like Switzerland, the United States, Canada, or even countries in Asia, offer better opportunities and recognition for tech professionals - in my opinion. However, it's important to do your research and carefully consider all factors before making a move. Ultimately, the decision to leave Germany is yours to make, and I wish you all the best in finding a country where your skills and contributions are valued and appreciated. I faced a similar situation and I am very glad that I left Germany. It was one of the best decisions in my life.

If you want to go to the UK or Ireland it makes more sense to study there directly in my opinion, even if it is more expensive. There are some good schools there and it's the quicker path.

I asked GPT 4 for you. Here is what it said: Yes, it is possible to work in Switzerland without an EU passport, even if you are already working in Italy as a software developer. However, you will need to follow the appropriate immigration and work permit procedures to legally work in Switzerland. Switzerland is not part of the European Union (EU), but it is a part of the Schengen Area and has bilateral agreements with the EU. As a non-EU national, you will need to obtain a Swiss work permit. The process typically involves the following steps: Find a job in Switzerland: You will first need to secure a job offer from a Swiss employer. The employer will typically initiate the work permit application on your behalf. Apply for a work permit: Your employer will apply for a work permit at the local cantonal immigration and labor market authorities. The application will include a range of documents, including proof of your qualifications, work experience, and the job offer. Labor market testing: Swiss authorities will conduct a labor market test to ensure that no suitable Swiss or EU/EFTA citizens are available for the position. If your application is approved, your employer will receive the authorization to hire you. Apply for a visa (if applicable): Depending on your nationality, you may need to apply for a long-stay (type D) visa at the Swiss embassy or consulate in your home country or country of residence. The visa will allow you to enter Switzerland and take up employment. Residence permit: Upon arrival in Switzerland, you will need to register at the local residents' registration office and apply for a residence permit. The type of residence permit you receive (e.g., B permit, L permit) will depend on the duration and nature of your employment. Please note that these steps may vary depending on your nationality and specific circumstances. It is advisable to consult the Swiss authorities or a specialized immigration lawyer for personalized advice. Keep in mind that working in Switzerland while maintaining your job in Italy may require additional permissions or documentation, and may also have tax implications.

Like so often, GPT is a bit misleading here even if not entirely wrong. Your best bet is probably to first become an Italian and then move to Switzerland. In the mean time, you could try and work remotely for a Swiss company from Italy (living and working from Italy). Swiss employers can sponsor a visa for non EU/EFTA citizens, bit it makes things more complicated. You'd need to be a specialist, manager or so to get a visa sponsored. Then again many software devs count as such specialists because the Swiss market is a bit dried out in some areas.

ChatGPT says all 4 countries will take you about at least 4-7 years realistically to get their passport.

Yes, I think Canada is better, at least from the point of view that I am looking at things. Canada is a bit more on the free market capitalism and individual responsibility side than Germany which becomes more of a centrally planned economy every year. Canada also has a better immigration system than Germany since Canada's system is based more on merit whereas the German system still discriminates mostly based upon your citizenship, i.e. it's too hard for highly skilled people with the wrong passport to immigrate to Germany. Germany has been talking about copying the Canadian system for many years now, but so far very little has actually happened in that regard. Both Canada and Germany can improve in terms of economic and personal freedom quite a bit. That said, Canada is already ahead of Germany in that regard. Although there are a few areas where Germany has an advantage over Canada, if you look at the broader picture, I would say Canada is the overall better choice for someone looking for a modern and progressive society with better economic freedom and individual responsibility. Overall I think Switzerland, New Zealand or Estonia are the better choices for developers considering a relocation to Germany or Canada.

@@38countries Thank you for your insight! One last question: Looking at the current geo political events (ie: Russian-Ukrainian War, the US possibly stepping down from world leadership, a possible world economic recession ...etc), which of the two countries I mentionned you think is going to have the better future overall, espcially in areas like cost of living, purchasing power, infrastructure and overall the quality of Life ?

@@JohnMarston-bb9eh Hi John! Good question and I don't really know the objective answer myself. But I can share my subjective view here. Personally my ranking would be, among the mentioned countries, Switzerland first, Canada second and Germany last after some other countries in the world. I think in both Canada and Switzerland you can make more money than in Germany and both CA and CH are a bit more open to innovation than DE. If you like innovation, entrepreneurship, risk taking and more economic freedom, definitely go for countries like Switzerland, Canada (or also Estonia, New Zealand and a couple more) and avoid countries like Germany, France or Italy. Geopolitically it's really hard to say. Germany is of course closer to Russia than Canada and I personally am worried about the size of the political minority in Germany that is sympathetic to certain aggressive regimes. I do think that in Germany too many people view political movements from the past on both the left and the right too favorably. This was part of my motivation to leave Germany since I believe that only the hard-working, entrepreneurial and more liberal, centrist position is the way to go.

Not tax advice, for general information only: Usually not, because a freelancer's company is worth nothing.

Typically that is not up to you since you are interviewing for a job that requires one specific language (sometimes 2-3). I would always choose Swift, but that is just because I know and like this one best overall. JS and Python would probably be my personal alternatives.

I am afraid your question is too broad, you would need to be very specific and reveal the business you have in mind.

... on a second note: Yes, Switzerland generally has less regulation around selling companies and intellectual property than many EU countries including Germany. But it really depends on the specific case on what you have in mind, so don't expect Switzerland to be a anarchy (quite the opposite in most parts of life). But Switzerland in many ways is a very capitalist country and probably one of the few examples where capitalism and free markets actually work quite fine without too many people getting left behind, good health care for everyone etc.

Thanks 👍

Currently Switzerland

Unfortunately no. My experience is based on Bavaria which has been with "the west" forever.

Hey John Doe! I don't have a very informed opinion about the Netherlands since I have only visited and have a few friends from NL, but never lived in NL myself. It's in fact on my bucket list to stay there for a while but mostly to learn Dutch, the final major Westgermanic Language I don't speak fluently yet. Professionally I think Switzerland and the Netherlands are both similar in some ways with a few notable differences on the other hand. Both countries are more on the economically liberal side and have many international companies with offices. So getting started with English instead of the local language is probably equally easy in both countries in most teams (talking only about Software Engineering and similar tech jobs here). In terms of money, NL and CH are more different: Depending on where in Switzerland you live/where your job is, you will be able to make a lot more money in Switzerland vs. the Netherlands. The salary level in the Netherlands is generally much lower, maybe about 30-50% less in Amsterdam vs. Zurich. On top of that, income tax is higher in most cases in the Netherlands vs. Switzerland (highly dependent on where specifically you live in Switzerland). To be clear: the Netherlands is for some reason often praised as a tax haven. This is a huge misconception. For normal people, the Netherlands is absolutely not a low tax country. So your net salary (after taxes and social) might easily be half in the Amsterdam vs. Zurich. Even after higher cost of living in Zurich, your savings rate would often be better in Zurich. Money-wise I would definitely go for Switzerland. Culturally it's subjective and really up to you. Either you are more interested in what Switzerland has to offer or pretty much every other country in the world. I think it's always important to also look into the specific job opportunity. If you have a super amazing job role waiting for you somewhere that should usually be where you should go. Money is more important than some people think IMO, but money alone won't make you happy. Many people can find their dream job in Switzerland, but not every job in Switzerland is a dream job just because it's well paid and there are terrific lakes, mountains and clean air around your house. As a matter of fact, my first job in Switzerland was not a very good one.

@@38countries Wow thank you for such a detailed reply . Subscribed to your channel for more insight on SE in Switzerland

Glad to help! Let me know about any other questions you have about moving to a new country as a software developer or interesting topics on which you would like to have a video.

@@38countries i also wanted to ask you about the work culture in European tech companies. How would you compare the WC of Switzerland vs Germany etc

I think in software engineering it's fairly similar in all of Western Europe, including CH, AT, DE, FR. Since salaries are so high in Switzerland, you are expected to be a bit more productive than maybe in the neighboring countries. But I think this can be a benefit. You can also work 80% (4 days) and still have a good salary. Apart from that, Switzerland has a reputation to expect new hires to be productive on the job from day one. Which of course basically never happens.

Born and raised in Germany, but my family is not from Germany.

You don't need to learn a new language to leave Germany.

The serious factors apply mainly to entrepreneurs. The rest applies to entrepreneurs and non-entrepreneurs but is less serious, e.g. partially losing the money you paid into health insurance, non-transferability of the pension and so on. Germany can only take things away from you if you work hard enough to achieve a lot. As long as you just chill and don't work very hard, Germany is probably a good country. The problem is that the current system in Germany encourages laziness and you can imagine where this will lead in the long run.

@@38countries Agree these social benefits you gain while working are basically a shackle.

I really have to disagree with you here. Not everything I say and believe is representative about Germany, but first of all I was born there, lived for 20+ years throughout multiple regions of Germany and have had my share of diverse experiences. Enough people across all industries and levels of society in Germany look down on science and technology to say that Germany overall has a cultural or demographic issue with modern digital technology. If you are looking for a plausibility check, try getting any document from the government. Even big and slow countries like the US or the UK are more progressive than Germany in that sense. Another factor are salaries in software engineering which are not internationally competitive. I was consistently mobbed at school for my interest in math and science throughout multiple regions in central and southern Germany and these were not even the worst of neighborhoods. I am not saying that this could not have happened elsewhere, but I did have the experience if Munich/Düsseldorf/Cologne vs San Francisco vs Zurich and can say that Germany is overall not a great environment for being a software engineer. Even if you can survive in Germany as a software engineer you could have so much more impact elsewhere.

​@@38countries We all have a comfort zone of sorts, and if Germany isn't yours, it's ok to leave. What I find irritating is the compartmentalized approach that you take. We may always point out things that are better here or there, and no country is perfect in every respect, but at the end of the day, it is the sum of things that needs to be looked at. Wages for example are one aspect of wealth. But how many days off do you get in the US? There are things that are cheap if not free in Germany, but ridicuously expensive in the US such as good education. Now we both are native Germans and have no difficulty writing and speaking a foreign language. How many US citizens are on that level? The US is certainly more an early adapter of technology compared to Germany. But US public infrastructure in many respects borders third world standards. Outside Washington, the public administration in the US is a mess to say the least, and most parts of it are technologically no more advanced than Germany. You may be right that for a software engineer, the mecca is San Francisco rather than Cologne or Düsseldorf. That doesn't sound implausible. But you took a very general approach on Germany as a whole. Try Arkansas, or Bern. That's a different game. For other areas of life - music, art - Germany is in many respects the global mecca.

Yeah maybe, but I also did not say that the US was better than Germany. My philosophy is basically: You should always be in the number one dream country based on your needs. If you are only in the second best country, you should move to the number one country instead. The key message of the video was that Germany mostly follows a communitarian/collectivist approach which I reject as unethical and unpractical. Germany might be doing well over all, but also the country is not friendly to entrepreneurs and innovators. At the same time, I acknowledge that not everyone agrees and some day I will make videos about the fun and perks of Germany as well because there are a lot of people who believe that Germany is their dream country for various reasons. For example, Germany can often be a second best choice for people who can not get into their number one dream country. My role is only to inform and advise as objectively as possible (I can never be 100% objective) and to help people discover their dream country. People have to make and live with their own decisions themselves in the end.

While I agree that most if not all of Europe is way to bureaucratic, I would suggest to review this attitude. I had the same attitude as you the last couple of years and am trying to get away from it. Part of being an entrepreneur is withstanding bureaucracy and all sorts of other resistances. So while yes, it does make sense to seek the right ecosystem and starting ramp to build your business, you need to be resilient. In the end, in my opinion it's better to focus on high tech things. Sure, the world also needs a few coaches here and there (I guess I am one to a certain degree), but the real growth lies in building robots, rockets, automation through AI and so on. This applies also to the financial perspective. You can only make so much money as a small and more personal freedom oriented business, while the real big bucks and all the awards, the VC money and the fame lies in being like Elon Musk, building Tesla, SpaceX and so on. If you try and do that, you can not simply run away from bureaucracy that much because all developed countries are bureaucratic and you can't build those things in a third world country. So if you look at "more entrepreneurial" countries like the US, you will find that there is a lot of bureaucracy and limitations there as well.

Switzerland part of the time

@@38countries oh thats a great efficient country

@@38countries do you have any idea about Hamburg

@@AsifSaifuddinAuvipyHamburg is in Germany as well.

@@38countries i know that but that is in lower saxony und Holstein region I guess. I got a job there recently. Have to move there. Is that region little bit more progressive?

Not really, it's not mainly about the money but about the philosophies of collectivism/communitarianism vs. individualism. I could have moved to a few other countries to achieve the same goal, not all of which are as wealthy as Switzerland.

It can be, but financially it makes no sense above 100K in many cases (esp as a single) since taxes are enormous in Germany.

Glad you like it. I would describe myself as more or less "classic liberal" with special enthusiasm for Austrian economics. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_school_of_economics

I sure hope so. Discovering new countries is exciting!

For bigger corporations like Tesla it is OK and Germany has cheap labor. Bureaucracy is only bad for "the rest of us". The normal people, freelancers, SMEs etc.

@@38countries Well it did seem like Tesla had to jump through a zillion hoops and they were delayed.

@@braaitongs Sure, but they probably expected and considered that. There are just not so many alternatives for building an automobile factory in the western world. And once again, Germany has relatively cheap labor! You get some of the most talented and honest workers in the world at almost Eastern European prices. So I think Elon's bet made a lot of sense economically. The irony here is that investing in Germany makes often makes sense from an entrepreneurial perspective, just not from an employee perspective.

Can you elaborate what part of the thumbnail makes you think that? ;-)

What is specifically interesting for you? I am happy to do a follow up if possible.

Thanks for that comment, The Detoxer! I have often thought about the US and did spend about a year at Berkeley when I was studying. It was a great time. At the moment, I have some reservations to go back to the US since I am not happy with a number of KPIs in the US and think it's not an ideal country for immigration at this time.

@@38countries What KPIs do you refer to?

Life expectancy, air quality as measured in AQI, index of economic freedom (Heritage Foundation), freedom scores from the Cato institute, democracy index by Freedom house. I actually like the US and might move there one day if an opportunity comes up. But at the moment, you can basically live in another country, have better health care, better air with less PM2.5, live longer, have more contractual and personal freedom, do business with less regulation and have better press freedom. Sure I am cherry picking here a bit, but at the moment, none of the big and famous countries perform well in most of these rankings. Smaller countries like Switzerland, Estonia, New Zealand, Ireland and Singapore are leading the scores these days.

@@38countries Hmm I would not care too much about those KPIs. The US is very big and it always depends on your situation.