Why I'm Considering a Vasectomy (Change My Mind) 

Agreed!!

Same

Or do guys like me who got snipped.

Same here, snd I think that all elwe do it for similar reasons are anti natalists at the end.

I'm so glad to hear that! I see future me as I see any other individual who is not me. I want to do things now to help them make good decisions. Good luck, feel free to check in again and update me on what happens.

I knew I would never change my mind - same as you said, maybe I would, but it seems as fixed as literally anything can be. But I never considered a vasectomy until recently. The main reason being because it's unnecessary. The chances of someone wanting to have sex with me within say the next decade seem infinitesimal. I live in the UK though and have nothing to lose - it's free and more available in my current area. The idea of having to factor cost into it seems kinda disturbing to me. So despite being sure, I spent some weeks chewing it over, not really sure why I felt some resistance. And during this, I realised, it's not a permanent decision. A vasectomy should be considered as an irreversible procedure, but that doesn't mean you are committing forever to a child-free life. If you take the option now from your future self, or like me, are cautious that you might end up in a different situation and regretting not having had the procedure earlier, you still have the option to have children, and in doing so you can do the right thing and a much more important thing by adopting. I completely respect your child-free points about not wanting a human child of any sort, but ultimately should you change your mind at all at any time, you can still have a child, and in doing so quite possibly rescue someone from the maelstrom of trauma and abuse instead of needlessly bringing another being into existence. Which is just better and better over having a biological one. And even if for some reason you wanted the whole baby experience, some children can be adopted from a very young age. It's like all of the potential benefits are there, yet some of the downsides have been removed, and you ensure you can only go that one way by having the sterilisation. So for me, that certainly cemented something. It's a permanent decision and at the same time you can totally change your mind in the future. And in fact even better, because if you do, you'll know you'll have had to think about it and prepare for it. I can't see any way an adoption can happen by accident 😅. All in all, I'd say, go for it.

Also, people get so hung up on how permanent the decision of a vasectomy is. Yet how irreversible is the decision to have a child? We should really, really, really think about how having a child is a forever decision, and less so on how not having one is. You can regret procreation as well as sterilisation. And at least you can theoretically reverse sterilisation. If you try to reverse a pregnancy once your child is born, you're going to prison.

​@VeganSpaceScientist I can't believe this opinion comes from a man with a PHD. What you're saying essentially is that you have reached peak maturity and intelligence. You will not mature any further than you have at (20-something, I'm assuming). Do you hear yourself? This sounds like high school dropouts I've met.

nice username LOL

Wow, that long ago!! I am curious the method used back then compared to now, but maybe it's the same, and just as reliable. I know my grandpa had it done forever ago (never met him before he died) I had mine in 2017 I think, never wanted kids and the older I got, the more sure of it I was. You were young! I was 38. You have to talk to a doc here for an evaluation, make sure you don't want (more) kids. He was younger and chill, just said "Oh, ok" kinda and signed the papers, 5 min visit. 😂

@@v_a_n_e I had to shop around. One 3/4 inch incision, removed 1 inch from each side ( done from the same incision ) then tied.

Thanks! :)

Thanks for sharing Lawrence, good luck!

24yo woman in the UK, got my phone call in a week - I know how you feel, good luck!!

How's things going now a year later? I had mine done on the 9th of December this month. No real issues so far.

@@MrJamiez make sure go back for the follow up semen analysis. Everything is back to normal, no pain whatsoever sex feels the same as before. The stress and anxiety have alleviated. Just moved to a new state life is good.

@@stillsearchin3457 that's good news bro, happy you fully recovered. I've gotta go back in April for a sample follow up.

Thanks for sharing! Are we sure that being a sperm donor doesn't increase the number of children born from donations? A lot of people say this, but it should affect supply and therefore demand in some way. Even if it just makes being a sperm recipient a little cheaper, that should increase the number of children being born. I just saw the message, it went to requests so I missed it. Thanks!

That's true. I was lucky to find someone who shares my values.

Thanks for sharing, I appreciate your thoughts. I have a few responses in no particular order. It's interesting that you think you would be a better father than the median alternative. A lot of people think this, and I wonder if it's a bit like the phenomenon where more than 50% of people think they're better than average at something (say driving). If I might ask, what makes you say that? I actually feel like I'd be a terrible father. Are you familiar with the research that suggests people with kids are less happy? I think outwardly we see mostly happy moments from other parents because that's the face they choose to show publicly, but we don't see the single parent crying themselves to sleep because their child won't stop screaming for the 10th night in a row. I think it's possible that people *think* they're happier after having a child (maybe they want to justify it), but I'm skeptical that they're actually happier. I'm also fairly skeptical that my genes are particularly good just because I ended up becoming an EA. It's not like I come from a long line of philanthropists or anything like that. I'd be more expecting of some regression to the mean if I were to procreate, and I think the mean is not great. I think it's much more likely that I'd change my mind for selfish or biological reasons than I'd change my mind for ethical reasons, which is why I want to lock myself in. But even if I did decide that someone like myself procreating is a good thing, I think I'd be better off donating the 500,000 odd dollars it costs to raise a child to some kind of 'Encouraging Ethical People to Procreate' charity, since I'd expect them to be able to counterfactually create at least two more children with that money. I guess that's a question I have for people who want to procreate because they think it's an ethical thing to do. Would you forgo having a child to donate to such a charity if it existed? If not, why not?

​@@spacescienceguy I was meaning to respond to this earlier, but never got around to it. Thanks for the response, here are my thoughts. 1. I think I would be a better father than the median alternative based on the fact that I'm generally good with kids, I'm a patient teacher and I have a very low chance of doing all the things that put fathers in the bottom 1/3: being abusive/ neglecting a child/ being perpetually absent. I'm also in a happy, stable marriage. I suspect that you and most of your audience would also be in the top 50% in their given country, but I can't be sure. I've looked briefly into the happiness and parenthood literature, and it doesn't seem conclusive (usually only a small, few percentage-points gap, with having kids in some countries (Hungary, China) having a positive effect). I agree that there will be some incredibly annoying moments, and if I do have kids I'll doubtless regret it at many points, but my current thinking is still that it will be a net positive over my life. 2. The idea that one's genes are particularly special is probably a false hope, but you can judge for yourself whether you and your (potential) partner, with above average genes and education (especially at the global level), are more or less likely to produce children that are more likely to have a positive effect on the world than the median. It may be a different decision for a man if his potential partner would ideally want to have a child with him, but would rather have a child with someone else than be childless. But I get your point, regression to the mean probably means that while a child will be more likely to be above average and morally aligned with yourself, the chances of them being phenomenal are smaller. Improved embryo selection in the future could change this, though, and you could have a higher chance of having a brilliant, ethical child. 3. With the 'encouraging ethical people to procreate' charity, I generally agree with this logic (being consequentialist rather than Kantian), and although I'm not confident enough that it would be high impact, I may support such a group, or a group that put more research into this question. I'd probably be more willing to support groups that encouraged brilliant, ethical people to donate sperm, largely because it could be very low-cost. However, as I mentioned briefly, a major part of my thinking about having kids is based on my own family, especially my in-laws. They consider it our duty to have kids and they are willing to support us and the potential children financially and with parenting (my mother-in-law frequently tells us: "don't worry about your careers, just have a child, I can look after it"), while they wouldn't be willing to support a pro-natal (or any other) charity. It's very context-dependent, and my own distinctive situation has shaped my decision on the subject, so I would be reluctant to recommend the same to other people without supportive family members. But I suspect most families globally are willing to contribute a lot of time and money to their grandchildren, so that's worth considering. I guess my argument, simplified, is that 1) It could be personally rewarding, and you could be quite good at parenting; it's probably worth researching why some parents are happier than non-parents and why the opposite is sometimes true (and which seems more likely in your case). 2) Your genes might be worth passing down. 3) You may have available resources that you can't spend on other things that may change your cost-benefit equation/ reduce opportunity costs. If these don't seem persuasive to you, go ahead with the snip!

@@davidribosome4326 Just because you want something doesn't make that right or ethical mate.

How are you doing now 8 months later? I had a vasectomy 4 months ago & i am doing great.

@David Wishengrad Thank you for sharing. I see the non-reversibility as a positive, personally.

@David Wishengrad I don't understand.

@David Wishengrad With respect, lying about your biography is a weird way to start a conversation about truth. Also I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about. It seems like you are being intentionally vague to trap me in to saying something.

@David Wishengrad "after lying about that you don't understand" No, you're just not as coherent as you think you are.

Erhm...Excuse me fellas. I'm just wondering if you've made your decision yet ?

Half a million men get a vasectomy every year. No needle anesthesia, I felt almost nothing on the first.pop, nothing after the first application. No scalpel proceedure pokes a very small hole that didn't need stitches to close. A stitch would cause just as much bleeding and trauma as the hole itself. After driving home from the proceedure, there was a spot on the Gause and a 3 mm long red line that washed off in the shower, afterwards it was hard to see any difference in the sight. The prostatic end was cauterized 3 mm inside the vas and squeezed flat for a second and the vas was divided with the same tip without any attempt to seal the testicular end. The testicular end was pulled about 10mm so the ends didn't align, nothing was removed. Leaving the testicular end open is thought to prevent sperm from backup in the epididimus and prevent future possible pain. Everything works the same and I've felt it in a warm bath the tubes are discernable but not painful in any way. So, if you are certain that you don't want to cause a pregnancy, I would highly recommend searching for a no needle, no scaple, open ended vasectomy. I never had any pain or discomfort with my proceedure, it was performed on Tuesday, the visit took half an hour, the proceedure was 6 minutes from drop your pants and lay back on the table, to pull your pants up. No swimming for a week and use protection untill you test STERILE.

Thanks! And I take your comment in the spirit intended. To reply in sport: I guess my perspective is that I want to prioritise altruism over me feeling good. I've changed my mind on a lot of issues, but they are usually because I haven't thought of the issue much previously. Like I couldn't have predicted I'd be vegan 10 years ago, but that doesn't mean I think there's any reasonable chance I won't be vegan in 10 years. Same with atheism. I think the same applies for wanting children - I've thought about it long and hard for many years and still don't want them, which makes me think I'm very unlikely to change my mind. 35 seems a bit arbitrary. I may as well say to a 21 year old "wait 7 or 8 years, you should be 28 before making that decision". 35 might be too late, I might decide to have children for selfish reasons by then.

Not yet. I've put it off due to concern about the low risk of chronic pain, but it's not off the table yet.

Interesting, I didn't think about it like that. I see it more as a sign of confidence rather than unconfidence, but I can see why someone might think that. Seeing the future self as separate is actually part of my motivation for forcing the decision on them. I hadn't thought about it the other way around! Because I put no more value on future me than I do on any other mind, I'm happy to force them to do something they might not like to create a bigger benefit for others. My understanding is that vasectomies can be reversed in some but not all situations. I guess some more advanced procedure could harvest sperm from me anyway though.

I had a Vasectomy 6 years ago and regret it every day I have had chronic testicular pain ever since. Orgasms are excruciating. I have spent almost $15,000 of my own money on follow up surgery's. Nothing helps. Health funds don't cover any further surgery in relationship to initial vasectomy. Its viewed as cosmetic and they wont cover problems. I now take daily strong pain killers and anti-depressants. Post vasectomy pain syndrome (PVPS ) is somewhere between 2% - 5% of all vasectomy's, with variable levels of pain. As of the latest study 2020. Not all sites are up to date. I personally think thanks not good odds and using a medical standard of risk stratification , it comes in as a common outcome. 2% is considered common. You also may develop a hydrocele or varicocele. I developed a hydrocele. This is because they cut the lymph drainage at the same time. If they damage the vascular system then you can get a Varicocele. These are also essentially unfixable. If you change your mind reversal, it's between $ 5000 - $10000 , requires a full general anaesthetic ( insert risk % here ), hurts like hell and recovery is one month. 70% chance of patency initially but at 5 yr mark most have scarred back over. Also reversal isn't always possible as the Epididymus of the testicle can be so damaged from ruptures due to the increased pressure as the exit has been blocked. The Epidydimus may literally rupture post vasectomy. Its worth knowing that once they cut the Vas-deferens that your body will start mounting a auto-immune war against the sperm. Vasectomy Dr's will say " The excess sperm is removed by your body " . The way this happens is with constant inflammation. The body views the sperm as a foreign body and mounts a constant attack. The Anti-bodies are called " Anti-sperm antibodies " . You only develop them after Vasectomy. As sperm production will continue till death so does the inflammatory situation. Even after vasectomy reversal anti-sperm antibodies will reduce the health of your sperm by damaging their flagella. So even if a reversal worked you may still be infertile. Finally it effects the " Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis " and can have effects on the glands relationships to one another. Good luck whatever you decide. Leigh

@@leighbyford635 I'm so sorry to hear this happened to you. I can't imagine that level of chronic pain. Thank you for sharing, this is really troubling to hear and makes me nervous.

@@spacescienceguy Just don't have one.

@@leighbyford635 The effect on me should be just one consideration, it's not the only one. But you've given me a lot to think about.

@@spacescienceguy It's not just sex . If you get PVPS then you wont be able to play any sport ever again, or ride a bike, or do self defence. The list is endless. I appreciate its your decision but it can ruin your life.

Thanks for sharing! I'm open to that argument, but why do you think donating sperm wouldn't increase the number of children being born? It wouldn't increase it by 1 to 1, but by increasing the supply of sperm, shouldn't that have some effect on demand, and therefore the number of children being born?

@@spacescienceguy No worries! I think that the supply of sperm from potential donors is already so high that restricting it will have negligible effects on demand, which isn't very high to begin with. If I were a woman considering donating my eggs or being a surrogate mother I think that argument would hold, simply because both of these options are more invasive procedures and there are fewer people willing to consider / commit to it. But even if donating sperm did have an effect on demand, albeit small, my priors are that the global benefits of having another individual come into existence with values that allign with my own (e.g., nonspeciesist) would offset the harms they indirectly cause. Of course, I'm also assuming that donor X in this scenario has no genetic ailments that could be passed on to potential future offspring reducing their levels of well-being. If certain traits (e.g., high hedonic setpoint, strong tendancy toward altruism, intrinsic motivation) are hereditary, it may be possible that they can be selected for using current (and future) assisted reproductive technologies, which I support - only on the grounds of improving the lives of all sentient beings. See Gwern's post on embryo selection for more info on how this could be done: www.gwern.net/Embryo-selection

@@ashersoryl I see, thanks for sharing! I'm not sure I agree yet, but I'm open to thinking more about it.

💯 agree. I tried for years to get something done and was ignored. It has made me not want to date because I react badly to birth control and it seems most men don't want to be responsible for it. So, it would be nice to have this stress removed from women.

Thank you! I think as a male I'm lucky in several ways. It's easier to get a vasectomy, but I also seem to get less pushback than females when I say I don't want children.

@@ASMRyouVEGANyet I’m so sorry about that. My first time using birth control I was extremely nauseous, vomited, and kept having to run to the bathroom. Miserable experience. I was kinda traumatized from that but recently I discussed with my doctor to go on a different type (no estrogen) so we will see how that one works for me...

I don't think it's impossible that I'll change my mind rationally about the ethics, I just think it's so much less likely that I'll change my mind due to ethics than selfishness that it's worth considering. Further, even if I decided that creating marginally extra children was a good thing to do, I'd be better off donating $400,000 to a charity which encourages good people to have children rather than have one child myself. Having a child seems like an inefficient way to increase the number of children born. So, it seems very unlikely that I could change my mind about me specifically having a child for rational, ethical reasons.

Huh the 'offsetting' of not getting a vasectomy through some donation say to international development or family planning organisations to reduce population growth is not something I had considered. It's interesting, but I think the dominant factor would be the risk of having to spend several hundred thousand dollars on child raising over the cost of a vasectomy. But it's interesting, and if I don't get one I'll certainly be donating the money I save to something similar to reduce suffering.

@@spacescienceguy thanks. Without getting too personal why not condoms? 2% or so chance of failure ain't bad considering the STI and chafing advantages. Quality, proper fit, and lubes add to sensitivity and safety.

@@spacescienceguy also there are opportunity costs to everything! Even extra food miles for vegan food when you live next to a dairy farm. Even killing yourself when you could be working to help others. Even commenting on RU-vid instead of....oh dear...

@@decipheritalian As in why not condoms instead of a vasectomy? Well I use them now, but the advantage of a vasectomy is that I can't change my mind.

@@spacescienceguy Why do you trust your future mind less than the present one? If anything it will be better, at least within your sexual years. Isn't it 'timeist' to look upon future consciousnesses as less trustworthy?

Sure, I know quite a few women that age or older with no children. "Your memories of the cubicle, your boss being proud of you?" I'm not sure if you're implying that the only thing worth doing in life is working a meaningless job, but that seems like a sad view of life indeed. My memories of the fun I had and the suffering I alleviated through my work will bring me some joy, I trust. I think this overestimates how much people actually get help from their children at that age. Some end up not wanting anything to do with their parents. In any case, would I wallow in misery for a political decision I made at 30? Yes. Yes I would. That's the whole point - a bit less suffering at 80 doesn't justify bringing a whole life into existence just so I can guilt them into looking after me. If I can't afford a retirement village or similar, then so be it.

@VeganSpaceScientist What I've gathered is that at under age 30, you have reached peak intelligence and maturity, and any change to your mindset in the future is a certain regression. This sounds like high-school me lmao.

@@reformedleftie That's not quite what I'm saying. I'll explain my position with an ethical view that I assume (I hope) you hold dear. You don't want to kill innocent humans. Suppose you are quite confident that this is the right view to hold, but you've heard that at an older age, there's a chance you'll change your views on this. Would you take some kind of action to make it harder for you to want to kill innocent humans where you're older? Now in my case, I'm quite confident that me procreating would be unethical. I'm about as confident about this as I am about being vegan, or not wanting to kill innocent humans. Now why wouldn't I take the chance to make these things harder when I'm older?

It's just about procreation.

Doesn't castration seriously harm men? Unlike dogs who seem to benefit?

@@decipheritalian No, castration does not harm men, it makes you calm and without addictions. I know a guy from Belgium who did that when he was 34 and lives now age 67 in perfect health condition

I tried chemical castration, the lack of erection, the always tired feeling, the hot flashes. The only positive thing was that I had less body oder! Oh, and sterility. My vasectomy in the other hand only made me STERILE. Your mate should be thankful! Most women will puke, have painful tenderness in the breasts (even if it's just clothes) disfigurement, not to mention contractions and labor at birth. The first box of condoms I bought half of them broke, (I had stubble that tore them from shaving) (I was later told it was like fucking a bottle brush!). If you're going to be faithful in your partnership, you shouldn't have to worry about STD's. IF you have your vasectomy, you will be surprised at the weight lifted from sex. Just love!

I don't think that's right. There is a small risk of chronic pain associated with a vasectomy which may influence my decision. The reversibility of the procedure is a bad thing in my opinion! Luckily they aren't always reversible.

Just FYI your comment about 'bloodlines' on my other video isn't fully showing so I can't see it all to respond to it.

@@spacescienceguy I must've used a naughty word because youtube seems to have auto-pruned it. Back on point here, the risk of chronic pain that requires treatment from a vasectomy is around 1-2%, according to a quick google search. Significant as far as percentages go, but you've still got a 49 in 50 chance of coming out fine. It'll completely remove your ability to procreate, but won't throw your hormones into turmoil as a complete castration would. Your take on reversibility is... Interesting. Can you elaborate on why exactly it's a negative?

@@Grimbach "the risk of chronic pain that requires treatment from a vasectomy is around 1-2%, according to a quick google search" Yup - but it still remains the strongest argument I've seen for not getting a vasectomy. The reversibility is negative because it defeats the whole purpose of getting a vasectomy for me. I want to get it to lock myself into never procreating - an act I find deeply unethical. If it's 100% reversible, there's no point. I will be able to change my mind about procreation and reverse it almost as easily as I can change my mind about procreation if I don't get one. Perhaps arguably it makes it a little harder for me to change my mind, but not by much.

@@spacescienceguy Do you not trust your future self to stay the course? If you don't, you're leaving open the possibility of changing your ethics. Aside from the continuity of experience, what's the difference between choosing a non-reversible procedure and forcibly sterilizing another person?

Yeah, pretty weird. They err on the side of status quo I guess.

@@spacescienceguy The status quo is horrible, and needs rational changing. Btw, I was always interested in cosmology. How do you find the field?

@@antinatalope Indeed. I love space science and am still fascinated by it, but doing a PhD sadly sucked some of the joy out of it for me. But I'm still passionate about it, in a way.

I've never wanted children, but I did briefly consider sperm donation once in the past. That was more for getting money which I could donate elsewhere than for the genes argument. I do accept that genes play a large role in someone's traits, but I'm not convinced that my genes are ones I would want to propagate regardless. I also have struggled with depression and anxiety for much of my life, and would hate to pass that on. As a selfish reason for not wanting to donate sperm, in Australia it seems like (I think) any child from your sperm has the right to contact you when they're 18. I just really don't want this, but accept this is entirely a selfish argument. I take your Idiocracy argument at face value! Some people have put this to me as a reason to have my own biological children in the traditional way. My response would just be about the opportunity cost of $400,000 and thousands of hours being better spent doing other things if I want to prevent that future. It's a little different for donating sperm. Your argument is probably the strongest I've heard in favour of me not getting a vasectomy. Edit - Another thought I have is that I'm not sure whether donating sperm would increase the number of people having children through sperm donors who otherwise wouldn't have children. The effect probably isn't '1 donation = 1 more child', but I suspect it would have some effect on supply and therefore demand.

Yeah, this is my biggest worry.

​@@spacescienceguy There is a certain type of vasectomy called an "open-ended vasectomy" which I believe cuts down on the chances of developing Post-Vasectomy Pain Syndrome. So what you want is a "No needle, no scalpal, open-ended vasectomy".

@@leannegreen7830 Thanks! I need to look more at that option.

Thanks for the comments! I'll respond, but I hope you know I'm taking them seriously and not just dismissing them out of hand. Luckily I've already found my partner who doesn't want kids! I've been in relationships previously where my partner has wanted kids, and it has never ended well. I'd rather just not be in a relationship than be in that state, or to do something that would make me unhappy. I'm happy for you, and glad you're in a good place. Can I ask what your perspective on children was prior? Was there ever a point where you thought kids might be bad for you? I think this constantly, and every time I'm around another kid, I'm reaffirmed in this. I don't hate kids, I wish them all the best. I'm just not interested in caring for one in the slightest. I ask this because I know people will sometimes say they were skeptical about having a child and now enjoy them (people can also go the other way though), but I don't know of anyone who has not wanted them as much as I have, as consistently as I have, and turned out to like having one. I've looked into Aubrey's work, but I'm a little skeptical as to how fast progress is moving in that field. Having said that, I guess I could change my mind in 5 years or in 900. But that's still the reason I'm considering a vasectomy. I don't want to change my mind in the future. The population is a part of the argument, but if I decide I'm worried about the human population being too small I could always donate some money to a pro-population organisation and do more good than I would having a child directly. Could you talk a bit more about how freezing my sperm might be used for longevity? Does it need to be my sperm or can I just encourage others to donate their sperm to research? The space travel scenario sounds a bit too unlikely for me to make too much of a factor, personally.

Not with you at least.