Hi guys! Today I'll be explaining why Im not getting one of these Bachmann K4s that from the new 2021 run. Enjoy! Note this is just my opinion, Im not trying to tell you how to spend your money.
Bachmann pricing has been inflated for years. Their MSRP for an HO car with 1970s/Model Power/Tyco tooling (thick details, no separate grabs or ladders, obviously cast from old molds) is $50.00-60.00, equivalent to Rapido, Tangent or Scale Trains (high-level of detail, including details specific to railroad-proprietary car classes), and 20-30% HIGHER than Kadee (ditto). At least, the Bachmann cars have (plastic!) knuckle couplers. No idea what they're smoking, at Bachmann.
I just got a Bachmann Spectrum K4s in the “20s” paint scheme with the DGLE coloring and pinstriping for about $150 (including tax and shipping, that comes out to around $170) off of eBay. It’s one of the later ones made around 2007-ish as it has Tsunami sound equipped and comes in a black box with a plastic screen. I have yet to test how it runs and if the DCC/sound works properly or not as I am at college and don’t have access to my layout at the moment, but appearance-wise it’s in pretty much perfect condition and the seller said it was tested to run on DC. Considering most of my other DCC/Sound-equipped steam locomotives are quite a bit more expensive than what I got this one for, I’ll consider this one of the best deals I’ve ever gotten if the engine works properly. I think Bachmann nailed the 20s paint scheme as the pinstriping is pretty sharp and the colors are well done. (Minus the cab and tender roofs not being the freight car brown/red colors, which doesn’t personally bother me too much as the black they chose instead does contrast with the green) Weirdly enough, Bachmann actually did do the proper DGLE green coloring on the 20s version, unlike the regular Prewar and Postwar versions you have. I think it’s neat that Bachmann chose to put a circular number plate on the front of the boiler instead of the iconic keystone one on my model; my guess is either can be considered accurate as I’ve seen multiple images of K4’s with pinstriping having either circular number plates or keystone ones. So idk I find it cool how Bachmann chose to use a differently shaped piece entirely compared to MTH’s version of the K4 with pinstriping which has the keystone number plate. (Sorry I got a little carried away describing all of this lol) Anyways, my point is: I think for the value; the Bachmann Spectrum K4s from the late 2000’s is really well done (atleast for the 20s version and Prewar one judging by your review regarding accuracy) and it is a large shame that the most recent run is practically around twice the price. It’s kind of a shame in general as BLI’s prices are going up on their newer models and I fear ScaleTrains’s future steamers may cost quite a bit as well. I may have to resort to purchasing future engines only when there’s big sales on them. (for example, TrainWorld’s specials or BLI’s refurbished shop) I get inflation is a thing and the prices are always gonna go up regardless, but idk, it feels like recently the prices have just been sky-rocketing for the plastic/diecast model market and it definitely will make it more difficult for me (and I’m sure many others) to purchase new models as often as I do if this trend continues. I can understand price increases on newer runs of preexisting models if major improvements are made to them, but as you mentioned, it seems like Bachmann usually doesn’t do enough improvements where the price seems justifiable. I fear that BLI may do the same thing where they’ll re-release an earlier model (their USRA Pacifics for example) in a new run and make practically no major changes (other than having “Paragon 4”, which is basically just Paragon 3 with a capacitor) and still make the price an extra $100 or something. Hoping that doesn’t end up being the case, but considering these recent price increase trends, I fear it will happen. Sorry for the huge essay of a comment, I didn’t intend for this comment to be so long lol. Really great video, you definitely make some solid points and I think your criticisms should be taken into account by all major HO manufacturers so the hobby doesn’t become more difficult for people to afford/enjoy/get into.
I can always appreciate a long reply! I think you might have gotten the point in my video wrong. The entire point of the video was to say that I previously highly recommended Bachmann's old 2000s K4s because while they werent the top end K4s model, they had AMAZING value and you can still get them used/like new for very cheap on ebay. BUT that Bachmann's new K4s which are basically identical (besides new electronics and lights) are NOT recommended because its still a basic model but now theyre charging top of the line premium prices for them. New Bachmann K4s now cost more than BLI or MTH K4s, which imo are far superior. So currently if you're in the market for a K4s and have $370 to spend, I would recommend getting either a BLI or MTH K4s, or i your budget is tight, get an old run Bachmann K4s, theyre still a fantastic value. Just dont pay premium prices for a new K4s cause its not worth it. I have nothing against Bachmann K4s, I think for the old price they were great models. Sure the detail wasent accurate, nor the paint or dimensions, and theyre kinda light pullers, but you cant go wrong with $100-150 you pay for them. Its why I still kept both of mine :) I think our thoughts are actually identical, maybe my point in the video wasent as clear as I thought. Cheers!
@@trainman440 Thanks for the reply! Nah the point of your video was pretty clear, my bad I should of phrased my comment a bit differently. I completely agree with what you’re saying in the video and understood that was the point, I was basically just echoing what you said with the addition of my own experiences. I definitely think BLI and MTH’s versions of the K4s are better models for sure, and usually I can say the same when it comes to other models all three manufacturers have made too. (USRA Mikado for example) For the old value, the Bachmann models are awesome and a lot of criticisms can be waved off for the price, but yeah for the current price which costs more than MTH and BLI, heck no. So yeah, I do have identical thoughts with what you were saying, I kinda felt like going on a rant towards the end of my comment so if it seemed like I was trying to disagree or prove the same point then I apologize; I completely do agree and was essentially repeating what you said by saying it’s a shame Bachmann increased the price so much on the current run because they took the best thing about their K4s- the value, and took that away. If I get another K4s in the future it definitely won’t be the current Bachmann one. Considering I’m a sucker for colorful paint schemes, I may try to find an MTH Tuscan Red one because I think that looks awesome. Idk for sure if it’s prototypical or not (pretty sure that’s been up for debate with PRR historians for quite some time) but I still think it’d be a fun engine to have. But yeah thanks for reading and sorry for any confusion lol
@@MrClay1983 All good! Yea, MTH ones are funky, I really like the paint schemes MTH used. I have one with the striping on the tender and it looks great. MTH and BLIs are also both diecast and their motors are more powerful .They can pull much more than either of my bachmann ones. The Tuscan red K4 models are rare to find, expect to pay a lot. I currently have way too many K4s (I have 11 right now), looking to see which ones I should get rid of. Its hard lol. Cheers!
Wow...i have one of the early versions of the K4 myself, but paid 120 bucks at the local hobby shop. Recently i bought an older AHM model of the 2-8-8-2 mallet for 55 bucks and THAT runs way better than my K4's,lol.
Did you get the early version that was before spectrum? Its the ones with no sepereately applied wire pipes. Those are crap haha, with split frame chassis and plastic axles that loved to crack and an awful motor. Very cheap. The spectrum runs which I mention run pretty well imo.
I do expect scaletrains to make a mighty impressive K4s. The MTH K4s are already very well detailed, the only thing Id add is the piping around the dynamo generator. Otherwise, the mth K4s tooling is more than sufficient in all other regards, with a great mechanism, suspension, diecast body and tender, etc. Id anything, Id just want the K4s to be cheaper, although I doubt I'll get my wish.
@@gonebamboo4116 in the meantime though, if I can find a Precision Scale or unpainted Railworks K4 (I hate the paint of the Railworks, it’s too green), I will happily get those.
I have 3 Bachman and 2 BLI K4s units. Truthfully I prefer the Broadways. As the Bachmann units were not strong pullers. But I’ve always ask this question. How many K4s do we need? Every few years a K4 comes out from Bachmann,BLI, then MTH. There’s enough K4s out there for now. Maybe G5,B6, or C class. Something different they actually fits the smaller layouts nicely. But I do like the prewar K4s. That “facelift” Was a Disgrace
I totally agree, Id like to see some models that are both unavailable for RTR and hard to find/extremely pricy in brass. Even something like the E6 while wasent previously in RTR form till BLI released, were common and cheap in brass (Gem E6s go for like $100). Stop making K4s, theres already enough!
Hello! I model the Pennsylvania railroad, which owned 425 of these engines. PRR experimented a a LOT with their K4s, resulting in a few dozen different appearances and styles. My goal is to reproduce and collect many of these styles eventually. Hence why I have numerous K4s. In fact as the time of making this comment I have 11 K4s. Additionally, in later years the K4s was deemed not powerful enough PRR would often double or triple head these locos. So each passenger train I run on the layout would need K4s...think of it as sorta like a diesel F7 AB set. Cheers!
For $550 I'd rather get the BLI version! But Bachmann seem to have a habit of saying something is going to be sold at a certain price, but sell it at a much lower one. Well, from what I've seen that seems to be the case. So, maybe that might end up being the case with these ones too.
yea hence why i said bachmanns msrps cant ever be trusted. Not many ppl know this but bachmann uses a different formula for calculating msrp, which is different from other manufacturers, which in short is a wholesale msrp which accounts for additional profit from a middle man (basically bachmann sells to a dealer which sells to a dealer which sells to you), and therefore has unfairly high msrps. Its why I said the msrp cant be trusted, BUT the fact that trainworld and mb clein are also selling it for a ridiculous $320 is what gets me! cheers!
I have two MTH K4 models and two and half Bachmann, the MTH and BLI are the way to go. I will give Bachmann credit for their choice of sound decoders but that's all I can give. of course the MTH models had to have the sound replaced or put on the docket for replacement. yay....
Lol 2 and a half Bachmanns? How is that possible? Indeed, I think the Bachmann ones are fine as a budget purchase, but outrageous for a premium price. Im currently trying to install sound into an MTH H10s and its been rather interesting...about as annoying as installing a decoder into a brass loco, with the need to replace ALL of the electronics.
@@trainman440 my Bachmann K4 roster is 3751, 1361 (prewar, custom), and 5448 (parts loco no tender and was the base for 1361’s transfer to prewar.) I have a 1361 from MTH (the one yet to be fixed or upgraded to Wowsound) so I didn’t want them to look the same. I’m probably going to make the chassis from 5448 a streamlined K4 with parts from the Bachmann store.
@@James-Railyard oh shit thats a pretty cool project! These Bachmann K4s are great starters for projects. Ive seena handful of modelers actually use these as the basis for a custom PRR L1s, since the L1s shared the same boiler as the K4 but with the sand dome and bell swapped. I was gonna do the same but then found a PFM United L1s with sound for $150 haha... Good luck!
If I get a K4, I'd get one from BLI, because that brand is actually named after the service that the K4s actually pulled. I'd also get it wearing "1361" to promote the resto of that engine.
Be wary, I dont think buying an engine based off of how the company name sounds like is a good way to go about this. Also note that a model of 1361 will cost SIGNIFICANTLY more than any other number, so be prepared to pay $$
@@trainman440 Probably because 1361 has become popular and has become a higher demand or something. Probably due to the restoration on the engine to return to steam once again.
to my understanding, no, atleast nothing significant. The new K4s uses near the same identical chassis, motor, and mechanism, so weight should be nearly identical.
@@railroadproductions2756 Im not sure, I dont own any of the new ones, only three of the spectrum run ones. The gearing one them are high (to have a realistic top speed), and despite the large motor, the engine is limited simply by pulling power, NOT weight. Adding more weight wont help. So No, not really. Best bet would be getting a BLI model, those have more powerful drives. I use my Bachmann K4s for short local trains (or doubleheading duty). They got the speed, but not the power.
The reason the Bachmann prices went up was because of the new decoders. The Tcs wow decoders cost $130 and there not getting discounts on those. So the prices going up in about right. The prices wont drop. Plus the Bli models are going up even more now and mth ones are discontinued til scaletrains decides to revive them and those will really go up in price. Plus Bachmann ones are simple to get parts for while bli is a bit more diffecult and mth parts are non existent.
I bought my Bachmann K4s at trainworld new in 2010 dcc ready for $100. Accounting for inflation, that's around $125 today. Plus the retail price of a tcs decoder with keep alive which is $105 on trainworld. Assuming bachmann got ZERO discount for buying decoders in bulk, its still only $230 total for an un-upgraded K4s plus new wowsound. Today the K4 is estimated to sell for $330 on trainworld. Note that Im specifically using all retail prices from 2021 on Trainworld. So where is $100 going toward? For the new LED headlight? Bachmann might be the only one making new K4s at the moment, but bli and scale trains are sure to make more real soon. Not to mention the huge flood of k4s on the used markets from bachmann, BLI, MTH, Sunset, PFM, PSC, ALCO, NJCB, etc.
@@trainman440 actually the 105 is the tcs with no ka. Plus after discounts ur only gonna pay around 300ish. New bli p4 models are selling in the high 400range and hybrids in the high 600 range. And new scalettains models which we wont see till 2023 will probably be in the 500-800 range for steam. Plus u cant count brass models as not everyone wants to deal with the Many issues brass models come with. Plus they have to make a profit as they are a buisness. Also bli just announced a brand new prr steamer so i imagine it will be a little while b4 we see another k4. Plus mth ones are too expensive and not worth the time since if they break u wont be able to get parts for them unless u butcher another locomotive. And i camt expect a 100% accurate model for $300 in steam. There is give and take for every model. Also bli k4 arnt easy to find right now. Only a handfull for sale atm and alot of them are overpriced for there age. I literally got a like new p2 k4 for $150 2 years ago. But im not paying $200-300 for a qsi 1 now.
@@gundathroneps448 No no no. Look again. TCS item number 1517 on trainworld is a WOWsound decoder WITH keep alive for $103. Also, you cant say discounts for the $330 bachmann K4s...that discount could be applied to both comparisons, its not like the discount is exclusive to the new K4s. Trainworld always had and still has 10% discounts all the time. Its not fair to apply it to one and not the other. BLI will probably sell the P4 k4s for $400 like literally every other P4 steam locomotive out right now thats not brass. (I1sa, ATSF 2-8-2). Scale trains, who knows? Your $800 is just speculation. ------------- I CAN count brass engines because they are EXCELLENT models, unless you're afraid to work with your engines. If you cant expect a perfect model for $300 I think youre crazy. $300 is SO MUCH to pay for a single engine, it better be pristine. Your sense of value is way off my good sir. ---------------- Also you cant count for used prices. You got a BLI K4 for $150? good for you. In that case, I got a Bachmann spectrum K4s for $40 two years ago. But that's not a fair price to compare with.
@@gundathroneps448 please get your facts straight and make unbiased, fair comparisons before you comment. If youre gonna compare used, make sure both prices are used. If theyre new, make sure they both discounted, or both undiscounted.
@@trainman440 @Trainman440 1 u will pay more the $103 after u include speakers, harnesses & shipping. 2.no u cant count on brass cuz its either overpriced or cheap cuz its falling apart, and alot of ppl nowadays barely even service there models so wat makes u think there gonna fully rebuild a pos brass model. I have 5 and 4 of them ive had to completely rebuild do to shit parts several from high end makers like pfm, key and omi. Ppl nowadays arnt model railroaders, there model train buyers and are so lazy that all they do is wanna run trains and thats it. Then they complain about why there models break cuz they dont take care of them. 3 tell me 1 model sold nowadays that Doesnt need a work out of the box to run good for long periods ill wait cuz there arnt any. I payed $600 for a new bli hybrid and it ran for a week then the p3 board went out. No model is perfect. 4 u can get a new bli p4 prr 2-10-0 for $400+tax and shipping where as u can get a new Bachmann k4 for $270 with tcs wow+ tax and shipping. 5 yes scaletrains are gonna jack the prices up on every mth model they remake just cuz theyre name is on the box. Thats how buisness works. Ur gonna pay more for the same model with the only difference being they will have esu vs protosound. And they will call the part of there museum quality line just to charge an outrageous price....why? Cuz they can.
I have one of the original BLI's that I got when released. I think I paid pretty much full price as it was at release $350 (ish). Most 'i've ever spent, and for that I think was worth it. Even like 20 years later $300+ for a bachie K4 compared to that BLI K4 is daylight robbery. BUT lookign at the BLI prices right now any new run would probably be north of $600+, which tbh is in the same rip-off stakes. (esp as they are still recycling obsolete QSI under a new disguise) The people who set Model rail prices have tbh collectivly lost their minds! This is not post covid inflation - this has been happening way before that.
I sorta agree, but if you look at bli pricing, their engines actually havent changed at all IF you account for inflation. The price of their old paragon 1 through paragon 4 PRR I1sa for example is nearly identical if you run the prices through an inflation calculator. Main difference is, used Bachmann K4s are extremely plentiful, and run for like $80-100. Whereas used BLI K4s still can go for upwards of $350. Fortunately, my two BLI K4s I paid $90 and $150 for. Cheers!
Amazon has them for $300 parts are ez to get and new decoders they are using are full price bachmann not getting a discount on those so unfortunately price goes up for those.
Sorry I'm serval months late to commenting on this. Despite also wanting ScaleTrains to make the PRR K4s MTH used to make, but honestly, I hope they instead they make the Nickel Plate Road/Pere Marquette 2-8-4 Berkshires/Chesapeake & Ohio 2-8-4 Kanawhas because Bachmann is the only company besides MTH prior to ST buying them out make them because the Bachmann NKP 765 I own is not the best hauler, it's a great model, but I have enough coaches to make a long heritage/scenic/tourist/excursion consist and it can't pull the coaches.
Hi, I must disagree, in fact I made 3 videos talking about the MTH berkshire. My thoughts are explained more in detail in those videos, but the main reason is the MTH berkshire is vastly overpriced for the slightly-better-than-bachmann detail levels. My opinion is that everyone should seriously consider getting a proto 2000 berkshire over an MTH berk. Not only is it cheaper, runs better, is more NMRA compliant, but also has MUCH better detail than MTH...better than some brass renditions. MTH's berk's main selling point is the fact that its got smoke and working markers...gimmicks that personally I dont find necessary. I wouldnt be surprised if scaletrains never releases the MTH berkshire...the berkshire being one of the least detailed MTH steamers out there. Would much rather see them release the NYC mohawk or NYC mepire state, two models that ONLY MTH has EVER made and in very limited quantities. Anyways, thats just my two cents. Feel free to disagree! If you want to see a more in depth detail comparison, Id look for my "why Im NOT buying an MTH berkshire" video. Cheers!
also I'm not a train collector by any means but I think that someone should make southern 2716 it's just a repainted C&O 2716 with minor mods and if DCC is equipped a different that being a southern ps-4 3 chime it's also the mysterious MsTS 3 chime
@@trainman440 Me: *Takes more months to reply to this* Actually no, I agree with you to some extent, (my case on the Bachmann Berkshire I got isn't a good hauler still stands) I will go check that video out because I'm sure you have some excellent points. I definitely agree with you on ScaleTrains needing to make models that were hard to come by/rare or never existed prior.
I payed about $450 for my BLI Streamlined one back in 2020, someone called me a fool for buying it instead of the Bachmann one, I have no regrets getting it (Besides not getting the unlettered one).
I mean theyre not the same model. You shouldnt be chosing 3768 over a standard streamlined K4, similarly, the standard streamlined K4 isnt a replacement for a 3768.
I have no clue why in the world bachmann makes there "suggested prices" so high. I've read some comments on some of their social media posts, if someone asks about prices, they tell you just go to a dealer, (that is if they reply). It's as if they don't want you to buy directly from them. Even if the dealer prices are cheaper, bachmann's "suggested price" dictates the dealer price. 550 is ridiculous for this model. This is why I have made the decision to move from ho scale to o scale. If I'm going to pay 550 for a locomotive, I would rather invest in lionel legacy diesel, which isn't entirely worth what they charge either, but more worth it than what bachmann charges for their products.
Yea its something to do with the 50/25/25 dealer model...and i think many smaller dealers dont understand this and charge actual bachmann msrps which is wrong, but I can understand the purpose, and thats why I dont take the $550 price seriously, I focus on the $330 retail price. In any case though, $330 is still FAR too much for this model, when you can pay the same for a far more superior BLI or MTH model. Cheers!
I got the Bachmann 1361 and the 3750 for only $125. I was tempted by a lot of cheapskates on Facebook that told me the Bachmann K4 is better than the BLI. I was wrong, these are just crap. I should have gotten the BLI Version.
That's fair, what exactly do you not like about the bachmann K4s? For me its mostly the inaccuracies...I dont mind the drive or the overall build quality. Its just the inaccuracies that really bother me about the Bachmann K4s. Ever since this video Ive found a few more haha.
@@trainman440 They just feel cheap and nasty. They are very unforgiving when it comes to modification or repairs. Plus it has molded and crudely detail parts that even the BLI molded on looks more detailed.
@@evanhizon8112 Interesting. I must say I disagree, they do feel kinda cheap because theyre so light. BLIs and MTHs K4s were both all diecast, both engine and tender shells. However, Id argue bachmanns K4s is very forgiving to modification and repairs. It comes apart fairly easily, and the shell being plastic means its really easy to add detail like I have. BLI's and MTHs both being diecast makes it REALLY hard to modify. I dont recall Bachmann's K4s having much molded on details...you sure you got a spectrum model? They made multiple versions of the K4s. First version was not spectrum and was absolute dogshit. The second version was "spectrum", but reused the first verion's molded shell. This version had the silver smokebox and red roof. The third version had very little molded on detail, and is the version I was talking about in the video. It was painted all black and dark graphite. Some came with DCC sound, some came DCC no sound, and others came DCC ready. Which version do you have?
honestly tho...but tbf no one pays msrp. Im more outraged at the fact that the retail price is ALSO too much... $320 for this loco is an absolute scam!
1. Money. Nuf said. Hahahahaha. (Edit): My ROCO DRG 44 was much cheaper with DCC and still has much more detail than a Bachmann model. I could probably swap with DCC & Sound and still be under 330$ for Bachmann's K4, and the quality would still be better.
@@trainman440 True, but Bachmann could be more realistic with their price expectations for what they are offering. Now people think on eBay that they can sell their used K4 engines much more than they really are.
LOL yea, tbf Bachmann's MSRP method is a bit different from the rest. It uses a different formula where it's NOT actually meant to represent how much the individual engine is worth to consumers, but rather follows a wholesale pricing market, which is a whole can of worms I dont totally get myself, but basically, Bachmann doesnt intend for retailers to sell their locos anywhere remotely near the MSRP.
Hi I understand, I'll try to talk slower but this is how I talk naturally and so its kinda hard to change. As I attempt to increase the quality of my video production over time I've also tried to talk slower and use scripts more often. I appreciate the input!
Hi I respect your opinion but I will continue to use hand gestures in my low effort videos. Rant videos were never meant to be of high quality, unlike my reviews which are properly filmed with a real camera and edited with premier pro.
