Why Is God Evil? | Three Body Problem 

"Any sufficiently speculative science fiction is indistinguishable from theology" I actually like that.

I would also like to add Cole's law to the conversation: Cole's law: Thinly sliced cabbage

*"Do you think God stays in heaven because he, too, lives in fear of what he's created here on earth?"* -Robert Rodriguez

I've always preferred the idea of evil gods. It's a lot easier to explain why bad things happen if some gods are actively messing with humanity. Though my favorite god from fiction is Crom, from Conan the Barbarian. He imbues you at birth with all the strength you'll need to face the world. Then he doesn't think about you again until you die and meet him. Because why would he need to do more, you already have everything you need to thrive.

i enjoy eating pencil lead

The Epicurus quote, "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" Is perfect for this video

Speaking of fantasy, most contemporary fantasy authors are Mormons, because Mormon theology is so darn complex that you need a flow chart to understand it. The whole thing looks like something Brandon Sanderson could come up with, oh wait...

Drew channeling his inner NileRed narration

"[The San-Ti] confuse Humanity with seemingly miraculous events that undermine our civilizations focus on advancement through reason. In short, they play the role of God, but one jealous of the potential power of its subjects who uses cruel trickery for the sake of its own power." This made me think of The Tower of Babel.

was expecting this to be from quinn’s ideas, this is a pleasant surprise :3

Never mind the spoilers, I'm so glad I watched this! I'm a sci-fi writer. The novel into which I've poured seven years of work is strongly premised on Clarke's Law (as you call it), and your new law of science fiction pithily explains why parts of my book read so much like religious literature. So I'm going to be quoting the McGrath-McCoy Law from here on out! And I'm going to start reading Cixin Liu's books at last!

Its not that gods are evil. They were created by people who wanted to be evil like the gods they created. They are worshipped by people who want to be evil, free of responsibility and accountability, getting what they want like toddlers and hating on everyone outside the cult. It brings out the worst in people.

Science Fiction as Theology certainly explains why religions of all types try to ban books and movies. They hate competition!

I remember writing a short story about when aliens came to earth they saw how violent we were and used us as bodies to fight in their wars.

You might also be interested in another book: The Killing Star by Pelligrino and Zebrowski. A quote from page 33 gives a flavor of this science fiction story: “The solar system had been "bug bombed," as if humankind had been nothing more to the Intruders than an insect infesting an apartment dwelling.”

This touches upon the reason why I'm an agnostic atheist in the first place. What is a god, exactly? It's just a question of power scale. The rest is mythology and moralism.

The fact there's even aliens is a spoiler for the book... There's no reason to suspect them at first lol

This is fascinating. I wonder if this could make sense of the origins of Scientology. Hubbard's pivot from sci-fi novelist to religious leader always fascinated me.

Bravo to you and Dr. McGrath for moving the conversation forward!

This is a really fun series. Get this as an audiobook... it is absurdly dense. I enjoy the series a lot but often put it down just because it is kind of a commitment.

I've been thinking a lot lately about how big shared universe like Star Trek and the MCU serve as post-modern mythology for a secular age. They're fiction, and we know they're fiction, but they still impart values and bring a sense of meaning and community. Consider Star Wars Day and First Contact Day.

Another thing I love about the show is how it (inadvertently) shows the perspective of the vilified ancient Roman persecutors of Christianity; they were protecting their civilization from an evil cult.

Really? RU-vid punishes me for talking about the hypothetical forced unalivement of gods? That's just ridiculous.

The creature in the thumbnail looks so much like a warframe haha

Being 1 minute after upload is evil

Great video! Enjoyed this very much!

Your content always help me think further and deeper, thank you for everything

I'm reminded of the opening lines for Nier:Automata Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him. The game story has various, on the nose themes about existentialism, nihilism, hope. Stuff that really stays with you.

love the amount of william blake in this video, super underrated as a religious figure, im deconstructing and slowly becoming an anarchist and blake is one of few paths i see to any possible future spirituality

Why did humans invent imaginary gods and then fight or argue over which god is true?

i’ve loved both three body problem and your channel for years now so it makes me happy to hear you talk ab the books

Loved this video to the coreee ❤❤❤ curious about that film and book now.

I very much appreciate the theological angle here as it's hard for me to view things through that lens after growing up without any religion or mysticism in my life. That being said, I feel like Wenjie is painted as villainous or destructive here and I disagree with that fundamentally. I don't even think the San Ti can be considered villainous honestly, not in comparison to humanity at least. They sort of beat us over the head with that, watching how we're willing to kill innocents in the name of our continued safety. Thats all the San Ti are doing. That's all Wenjie was willing to risk. Before we can call them evil we have to recognize that they're human, and if they're evil then so are we.

As a sci-fi author who has wholeheartedy used high-concept cultures and beings as explorations and expressions of theology, I wholeheartedly agree with the new law you've set up. I've had a lot of fun taking the different reasons why people engage with a religion or belief system and turning them into a series of sci-fi cultures in my book Arcforge: What Lies Beyond.

I am planning on watching 3 Body Problem, but given your spoiler video on Midnight Mass not only introduced me to that amazing show and to Mike Flanagan's work at large (thank you for that, by the way), I don't mind being spoiled on this show. Edit: Also, Eiza Gonzalez is in it. So it's a s must watch for me.

Great video! Very informative and interesting!

I think the difference between theology and science fiction is that scifi authors don’t ask you to believe their stories are literal truth upon which your salvation is hung (unless they are total egomaniacs, I’m looking at LRon there). This is a noncommittal engagement with “theology” in the sense that it deals with intelligent forces larger than mankind. But there is also scifi that doesn’t ask us to accept alien civilizations, that doesn’t ask us to confront cosmic forces. I’m speaking of the hardest of hard scifi. I don’t think anyone could read Andy Weir’s the Martian and come away with any sense that the book bears any resemblance to theology. I’m also not particularly fond of this type of scifi as I don’t think it really grapples with big ideas other than basic survival. I love when scifi explores the inexplicable in a realistic way in the same manner that I as an agnostic study religious theology as a kind of fantasy fiction. I have no commitment to any of it from a viewpoint on ultimate reality. I just love rolling around the ideas that humans have used to express their reaction to a reality beyond their comprehension. And if you think the alien as “evil god” metaphor ends with the first book, finish the third in the series. The smiting gets delightfully incomprehensible.

I love how the series Stargate treats the topic of religion and the interesting parody on medieval Christianity that is shown with the Ori. Hallowed are the Ori!

Great video. Really felt I got to see your channel from a different viewpoint. Hope you can do more videos on these kinds of series.

Plz tell me what you did on your video upload to get the RU-vid 1080p Premium Enhanced Bitrate

I always love your content it helps me to think more rational than getting emotional with everything ❤

Mankind has made many gods in its image. Most of them reflect the benevolance we wish we had. Some of them are more... honest...

The "never play with God" joke was actually the hint on how to defeat the TriSolarens.

You knocked this one out of the park, Drew

Oooo! I’m excited to watch this. New type of content from GMS with sci-fi themes. Woooo!

You have given me a lot to think about with regards to theology. I was always taken to hindu mythology and scifi, alwaysconsidered them apart now that i think about it gives me a different perspective. Also thank you for reminding me to watch the 3-body problem, i had read all the books but forgot the series existed

I`m loving the ``Mcgrath - Mccoy Law`` and I`ll remember it every time I come across it in any Science fiction scenario. Thank you Genetically Modified Skeptic!

Great video, this idea of sci-fi as a new theology beautifully put's into words how I've long felt about great sci-fi stories, including these books. There's a feeling akin to a spiritual experience when you read something like "tha soap bubble theory" in the Remembrance of Earth's Past books.

Is that a warframe?

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him. If God really did exist, it would be necessary to overthrow him.

Incredibly good video.Thank you, Mr. McCoy!

Wow. A truly excellent analysis. Well done!

As a sci fi enthusiast from my youth, your presentation was very interesting. I'll have to think about it some more. What I did find fascinating was the art work you included! Where did you find all of that?!

There were a lot of theological themes in the Netflix series, no surprise, as Netflix's owner also has a controlling share of Pureflix. The book series was more about "The Dark Forrest Hypothesis" as a possible solution to Fermi's paradox. Though all stories, whether theological or secular share characteristics, as all narratives, share similar characteristics. Campbell's hero of a thousand faces testified to this end, and narrative construction follows Dunbar's number very closely. So I have to disagree with the "Three Body Problem" being classified as an angry god allegory.

I love this recent foray into nerdy video essays.

This is an interesting perspective of the San Ti 😊 After watching “the three body problem”, I needed more interpretation and I watched a lot of Quinn’s Ideas RU-vid channel.

Thanks dude.

This is a damn good video.

I didnt think you'd cover this book!

I think it'd be interesting to put Liu Cixin, and your fascinating ideas about his sci-fi as exploring evil gods, in dialogue with His Dark Materials. I'm not sure what conclusions you'd come to or even what questions you would be led to ask - and admittedly Pullman is rather more blatant about his message in some ways - but it'd still probably go in interesting directions!

Could you touch on why Japanese RPGs seem to always have you kill god? In person 5 the main villain is quite literally yaldaboath

I like the "science fiction is theology" thing because you can flip it into "theology is fiction".

Excellent reflections Drew. Thank you

Great insights! Thanks for the stuff to ponder. 😁

Or perhaps, God is neither good or evil. And that probably because he may not exist.

The fact you are named McCoy should give you some kind of joy when discussing sci-fi ; )

Nice Blake art showcase!

Not a crossover I expected but indeed one that I welcome.

I disagree with the idea that science fiction is a form of religious literature. Because religious literature does not usually reflect on its themes with an open mind. For instance, it does not usually consider the possibility that their god is evil. It is true that SF and fantasy can create new myths, which people might approach with a religious mindset, in RL or within the fictional world, but that doesn't make the stories religious rather than about possible permutations of religion as a social phenomenon which is independent of the actual truth of their mythology. SF has a different perspective than religious literature.

Im 50 pages away from finishing the first book 😅 welp time to speedread and return to the video

Oooo! Very good! One of your best videos yet!

Very nice content. Ursula K. LeGuin is quoted as Sci-Fi NOT being prophecy, but instead, an examination of what is current, examined through the lens of what could be different, rather than what is. Both Sci-Fi and Fantasy allows us to look at human constructs and norms without our existing attachments, and as such free us to look at things differently.

Drew: Science fiction is theology. Me: I am a member of the Church of Trek, forever and ever, amen.

Three Body Problem is largely about game theory. The way it relates to god is that a player who is praying has no time to think, and will fail. magical thinking defeats logical, like a deer dazzled by headlights in it's last seconds, perhaps thinking "how beautiful." Hard science fiction is intended to communicate concepts, usually quite specific ones. Three Body Problem is trying to communicate some fundamental game theory concepts like forced vs unforced error, time and space in relation to strategy (using macro scales and the three body problem itself to illustrate strategic uncertainty), the concept of zero sum, information control and manipulation. stuff like that. and some "bigger" theoretical concepts like The Dark Forrest. (I think the second novel in the trilogy effectively named that concept) you're calling it speculative because it does make a bunch of stuff up, but it's trying to communicate some things that can be proven on paper, the "message" of the books at least has nothing to do with people, but with game concepts and "player" behavior. Christianity does call Satan "the adversary" I suppose, perhaps we are not doing theology here, but detangling logical concepts from theology.

Gets better the more you listen to it, even the "hit mix".

I love this series so glad you covered it

God is what you make it.

Ive been watching this channel for a few years. Very interesting. I just realized that discussing religion is exactly the same as discussing lore of any other story. Spirituality is so important to life, but religion corrupts our language for talking about it. Religion is weird. It makes me uncomfortable.

I'm glad this show is getting more attention. Great take on it

Praying for you man. I love you and pray that your intelect does not go to waste.

Wait you're not Quinn's ideas 😂

I can only think of Warhammer 40k when listening to this. I feel like it's the ultimate science fiction/religious series.

Hi. I have a slightly different definition of what defines science fiction, and I say that as someone who is at the final stages of completing their first science fiction novel. I think it is useful to first consider what happens when you combine the words science and fiction together, because it's quite ambiguous and open to interpretation. We could interpret it to mean harnessing scientific fact to tell a fictional story. I think some people may call this hard science fiction, but under this definition exceptionally few so called hard science fiction novels live up to this ideal. Three body problem is a good example. The concepts in this book are extremely speculative and although presented in a very scientifically disciplined way they go far beyond our ability to verify that the concepts are even remotely plausible. Another possible definition is that the science itself is to be regarded as fictional, and this is absolutely where most science fiction stories land. What differentiates them from fantasy is not the plausibility of the scientific artifacts, but the fact that they are to be regarded as scientific fact within the fictional framework of the story being told. These scientifically fictional artifacts must be self consistent within the entirety of the story. Whatever rules the writer conjures up to govern them these rules cannot be broken and thus provide a solid framework upon which to develop the story around. Some ideas may seem more plausible than others but when examined more closely they all break down as rather obviously being Unproven , unprovable, or even complete nonsense. For example the ubiquitous warp drive used as a way to defeat the mind numbing distances that describe the topological structure of the Cosmos. While the Warp drive is mathematically defensible it's physics require the existence of negative matter , something we have absolutely no reason to believe is real or even possible. The engineering requirements to build a warp drive is equally implausible. This is why I feel only the mildest guilt at conjuring up something like a mass generator in my own writing. It's complete bullocks, but is to be regarded as scientific fact within the universe I have created and provides a useful mcguffen to structure some of my story around. Fantasy, on the other hand treats its mcguffens As a form of magic that requires no framework to justify its existence or capabilities. This magic does not need to be self consistent and can conveniently be changed to suit the story's narrative if and when necessary. The boundary line between fantasy and science fiction is a lot less obvious than it might first appear. Consider Peter F Hamilton's universe within a black hole that can go back in time so that someone can repeatedly live out a specific event choosing different options until they finally achieve the outcome they are pursuing. This is science fiction rather than fantasy because the story provides a basic justification for how this is achieved. A fantasy novel on the other hand would attempt no such justification Other than say a magic wand and a student trained in the ability to wield it.

i enjoy eating pencil lead.

Make America Read Again

Great video

Great video, thanks! Another theme in Cixin Liu’s books is of course also the limits of the human perspective; the San-Ti being centuries from arriving here makes them more abstract, so we’re societally incapable staying on target, so to speak. (Cue parallels to how we deal with climate change.) It’s an interesting twist to learn that “god” is real and angry, but also operates on a timescale that means we still sort of lose focus. It’s like it’s either pure faith, in which case we interpret our way into schisms, or if it’s “tangible magic” like here, we adjust to the new normal. Either way we’re not good at grappling with it. One off-topic question though: what did you think of the Netflix show as a show? Because wow was I disappointed in it’s execution. High production values (mostly), but it’s just… really really bad, IMO. Frustratingly so.

it's all fiction

Evil according to whose ethical beliefs?

a bit off topic, but your videos are really interesting and really encourage me to look more into the historical context of the Bible including how it was put together. I’ve watched some of your commentary in response to Christians’ view of atheists and I was wondering if you could also take a look at Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle? They’re a father-son duo that have discussions about the Christian faith, God’s existence, etc on university campuses in the US. I’d really like to see your take on some of their arguments!! (if you even take notice of this comment :D)

Well, you've recommended at least obliquely yet another show I'd no idea even existed until your video. Interested by your video on Midnight Mass, I watched it with a friend then recommended it to my devout sister. We all thought it was great, though each in our different ways. I don't have any video subscription services but my friend does. If he's interested, we'll watch 3 Body Problem.

Hilarious, during the section about Santi traveling and arriving to a more advanced earth and ad for travel insurance pops up. 😂

A little bit of a roundabout way of saying this, but I hope you'll read it. The best analogy to use when describing science fiction is storytelling to a fish in a fishbowl. The idea is to make the fish consider itself and the environment it lives in (yes this is strange, but go with it). In order to do this, science (or sciency stuff) is used to draw the reader's imagination outside of the fishbowl, but only in ways that do not impact the theme the storyteller wants to get across. In this differing environment of the narrative, it is possible for the reader to examine something that is commonplace to them from the point of view of someone for whom this is not commonplace at all. Consider Star Trek narratives, in which scarcity and the fight over resources are removed to examine the struggles that are inherent to us as human beings, rather than a product of unmet physical needs (except in certain instances where they are instead highlighted in particular). I agree that myths and theology were an early form of telling the fish a story about itself from outside the fishbowl. There is a serious difference to think of, though. Where some theology tells stories that are meant to be believed on some level (especially by fundamentalists) and are in many cases the basis for some authoritative statement about The Way Things Should Be Done, science fiction instead relies on both the reader's suspension of disbelief and the reader's intellect to explore the possible meanings within the text to a far greater degree than theology does. Theology by its very nature within most societies is very difficult to openly question, whereas non-escapist science fiction (no matter what some fandoms believe) must be ruthlessly interrogated in order to gain the most from it. This is to set aside individual examples of authors believing their own hype and forming a cult-like relationship with their readers, which fortunately is not terribly common, especially represented in one specific example I'm sure you can think of. Thank you for your work!

Btw that cool piece of art was Beksinsi and he's a great artist.

"Any sufficiently speculative science fiction is indistinguishable from theology" Basically scientology

Interesting discussion.

This is the retrospective I didn’t know I needed

I'm quoting this a lot from now on.

If the universe has a creator, then it's neither good nor evil. It simply defies understanding.

As a hardcore spiritual/religious dude, this is the brand of skepticism I can rely resonate with. Got my sub