My analogy for Kenny G has always been is he is to Jazz what McDonalds is to hamburgers. That being said, I've really softened on Kenny G. I mostly respect that he seems to not give a crap what his detractors say. In 2013, he played at a festival I was photographing at and everyone loved him. The black ladies were going CRAZY when he played. I've seen him in interviews - he's a really nice person. And as Andy pointed out, for a Jazz instrumentalist to sell over 10 million of one record multiple times, is pretty impressive. I will never listen to his music, but I wont crap on him anymore either. The most hated music artists and bands tend to outlive their haters.
It wasn't just Pat Metheny. Freddie Hubbard followed Kenny G on stage by saying I don't know what that was but now I'm going to play some jazz (burn). 1987 (JVC?) Jazz Festival Blossom Music Ohio
The problem is Kenny has the temerity to call himself a jazz musician while simultaneously not having a single composition in 9/4. That’s an embarrasment to proper jazz” This is compounded by his propensity to only play 6 straight time notes in a phrase that doesn’t require any more or less than 6 notes. Meanwhile a real musician, such as a pat metheney, could easily fit 47 atonal dissonant notes that modulate between 8th note swing and four on the floor straight time while maintaining the 17/16 time structure established in that 3 second long phrase. The elitism of jazz is the same elitism problem modern prog has: a songs complexity and subsequent difficulty to play are only interesting if at its core it’s a good song….
Many thanks for this level-headed analysis. As a youth I tried to score some street cred with my sax teacher putting down Kenny G. My teacher replied : "Putting down Kenny G. does not make you a better player!"
George Benson is a great example of a jazz heavy weight who found a way to reach a massive audience of normies by playing accessible, contemporary music. HUGE pop hits.
Sacha Distel the brilliant guitarist had a day job singing popular ballads . Certainly better than selling insurance if the jazz noodling was not paying the bills .
George Benson is a great example of a master musician who watered it down to reach the public. I say, god bless anyone who can sell millions and make millions. Great jazz however will never sell like that, so it's a choice. Live for the music or take an opportunity to make a good living. There is room for both and HATE of any kind should never be involved.
I would say that reaching the public needs to be a part of any great musician's efforts. It's like good writers tell a story where they lead their readers along the plotline, and great writers are able to have the reader reach "a-ha" moments just slightly before they are revealed in the plot line, giving the reader a sense of gratification. It's possible to be a musical genius and to utterly fail in reaching an audience. There has to be a relationship between the two, one of respect and a shared language. "Soft" jazz does this very well. A Charlie Brown Christmas and The Jonny Quest Theme and The Mister Rogers Neighborhood Theme were my gateway drugs into more elaborate jazz motifs. Actually, a lot of 60s TV themes were great jazz pieces which were accessible. Ironside. Sanford and Son. The Odd Couple. People like to whistle or scat along with the tune. It shows that they connect with the music. That's what it's all about. Andy says it's all about love. I think he's right.
Some context regarding Methany' s criticism. It was in response to KG releasing a "duet' with the late Louis Armstrong. That irked a lot of people. Ironically Louis Armstrong may have been agreeable to such a collaboration.
And I really dislike Andy’s statement that Kenny G is the master of sort of taking you away from your daily routine versus serious avant guard jazz. Pat Metheny absolutely can be enjoyed casually and even by non jazz people but without losing integrity.
Believe it or not some of the musicians that I listen very often are Pat Metheny and Kenny G , and both have the ability to make very accessible and nice music . This is going to be a very weird comparison but for me listening to Kenny G is somewhat similar to listening to Phil Collins solo carrer , both are very accessible, simple but beautiful music with a lot of pop influence, both sell a lot . And Metheny is more like listening to Peter Gabriel , much more experimentation , complexity and lot of influence from world music .
Love your channel Andy. I'm definitely not a Kenny G fan for some of the same reasons some jazz snobs have shared. But I have to give Kenny credit for understanding the formula for earning a fat pay check and doing what he loves. However, I find great disappointment in noteworthy jazz musicians like Pat Metheny publicly and childishly criticizing other musicians that have been successful and have worked their asses off. That brings to mind guitarist Jimmy Bruno, a phenomenal jazz guitarist but I heard him criticize Pat Metheny at a master class that I attended claiming Pat's music wasn't jazz and he had a few other unprofessional things to say about him. Now honestly, as a jazz guitarist myself I'm not much of a Pat Metheny fan either, I can appreciate his success as a musician but more appreciate most of the other guitarists who he has supposedly mentored. I think a lot of this whole thing is just jealousy and envy. When I chat with other guitarists sort of new to jazz and I talk about Pat Martino, they go you meant Pat Metheny? No I meant Pat Martino who next to Wes is my all time favorite jazz guitarist. But Pat Martino would never insult another jazz musician publicly, same for George Benson. Again, not much a fan of Kenny's music and smooth jazz in general but I can appreciate his efforts and success.
Thank you!! Good to know I'm not the only jazz musician & jazz fan that defends Kenny G. And you did it so much more effectively and knowledgeably than me. Like you, I don't love KG's music, but I respect it and occasionally enjoy it a bit. And like you I strongly disdain the hate KG gets from "true jazz" fans and artists. I read that Pat Metheny interview when it came out and was deeply saddened. I *love* Pat's music. But he is unreasonably harsh about KG, for all the reasons you said. What's sad is that PM has a TON of influence, and what he says, many people take as gospel. You said you'd love to have KG on this channel to get his response. Sure, but I would especially love to see PM's response. I would respect PM sooo much if he said to you "you're right, I said unfair things about KG and regret it." (Of course, I have so much respect for PM anyway, except on this one point.) I wonder if part of the hate is because KG is white, thin, and good-looking. It's easy to think that, in the world of popular/commercial music, your success depends as much on your looks as your talent, maybe moreso. In any case, there's no question he can play: ru-vid.comuL01h9uslmA?si=70NmhorZL1g4tmWa
I don't think Kenny is particularly handsome. Dude has an awkward face, even if he has impeccable posture and great hair 😂. I'd say being white doesn't help either, no white man like Pat would dare to call a populist black guy a "sellout" imo. 🤣🤣 He might have a marketeable look for smooth jazz, but I think that is a miniscule component of his success. He knows the formula to reach masses, the problem is he repeats it all over and over again. Even if he puts out great , maybe even memorable, songs from time to time; his stock as a musical artist falls in my eyes for being way too formulaic. Many people attacked Armstrong, Wes or Benson for "selling out", but their music never got stuck in one place. Benson still put out jazz pieces, along funky ones and soulful ones. And most of his songs did share commercial elements, but also offered new things all the time. To say Prince, who himself kept varying genres and styles in every album, or Stevie, who has done everything in pop, are just as "commercial" as Kenny is ludicrous. Kenny is in a very short list of uncreative-but-megasuccesful musicians. I don't hate him for it, I do think Pat was being an a-hole and that the hate he gets might be a bit elitist, but at the same time this is also something that gets overlooked and might help better explain some of the hate towards him.
I agree with Frank Zappa, who said often in interviews that if an audience exists that likes a certain kind of music, then artists have every right to create that music and profit from it. Why do smooth jazz musicians like Kenny G exist and thrive? Because (1) among the general music audience, the tone of a saxophone has wide appeal; and (2) most music listeners have a very low tolerance for dissonance. (Lots of folks don’t like hearing the blues because even three garden variety dominant 7th chords are too much to handle.)
I think part of the reason some jazz musicians look at Kenny G as a sellout is the pioneering aspect to jazz. People like Jaco Pastorius were pushing the boundaries of music. I mean, Jaco's label begged him not to even put "Crisis" on his 2nd record. Hendrix was the same way, with his use of feedback. These musicians didn't give a crap about if their music was going to be popular or sell, they were out to try new things while people like Kenny G, from their perspective, were just playing it safe. That is my take on it anyhow!
@@kohl1999 Correct. No one force us to listen to it, and presumably it makes a certain segment of the population happy. Good for him. It's like getting rich selling postcards.
There are only a handful of musicians whose music I truly despise; one of them is Meatloaf. I can't put my finger on it, but I find his overly dramatic bellowing to be one of the most grating things I've ever heard.
I wrote this before on this Channel: When David Sanborn says that he ain‘t a Jazz Saxophonist but a Pop and R‘n‘B Player and Glen Miller said that his Music is not Jazz, then it is only logical to call Kenny G an Instrumental Pop Musician. I saw him in Montreux once but then already Montreux presented more Pop than Jazz. Since I own some Montreux DVD‘s where I am breathing and clapping on I had the Possibility to relisten to that Concert since the last Time I answered to this Channel about him. He is less Jazz than Dave Sanborn and Glenn Miller. It has some jazzy Influences, no Questions but even James Last had that. I stay with it: No Jazz; Instrumental Pop Music.
Andy you are, as always, speaking the truth about the realities of the music and art world. The economic and social impacts on the arts. I’ve seen it in my life over and over. The perception and the reality. If something is popular, it’s because it touches people’s hearts. It’s not based on intellectual values. That is what the faux intellectuals use to intoxicate themselves with to satisfy their elitist conceit. Bravo to you Andy for saying it plainly.
Never expected to spend so long thinking around the subject of Kenny G. Really interesting and thought provoking. But then you started talking about money, success, social background and I thought, Hey, that's not why I can't stand him at all. I hate his rhythms, his tone, his predictability his glossiness, his mind numbing awfulness. When Hubbard or Benson went down a commercial route not everything was great but there would always be something breathtaking. Kenny has never done anything to my breath and I'm afraid I'm not going to let him try. But next time I come across him I'll at least pay a bit more attention.
Sting had a similar comment as you…sure it’s hard to write a complex song. But nothing is more difficult than writing a simple pop song that will stand the test of time.
I love you Mony mo-mo-mony I love you Mony mo-mo-mony sure I do I love you Mony mo-mo-mony sure I do I love you Mony mo-mo-mony sure I do I love you Mony mo-mo-mony sure I do I love you Mony mo-mo-mony sure I do I love you Mony mo-mo-mony sure I do I love you Mony mo-mo-mony Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Come on, come on Come on, come on Come on, come on Come on, come on Come on, come on Feel all right, I said yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah
Andy, you make a very valid argument defending Kenny. But let's also be honest: one very big artistic flaw the G-man has is that his output is very formulaic. You can say whatever about Branford, Glasper, Sanborn, Norah, the Coles, Armstrong or Benson, but even in their most "poppy" form they all try to diversify certain elements of their music, they don't get stuck in one place. Even guys like Winehouse, Bennett or Sinatra have more diversity in their output than the G-man. I mean, to hate the guy and dismiss his musical ability is preposterous, but there is a valid argument to say that his HUGE sales are correlated with his tendency to stick to his formula and repeat it ad nauseam. I mean, Andy himself compared him to "pop stars" like Stevie, Elton, Prince or Jackson. Those guys are indeed very talented to reach the masses, but they do it always switching it up and bringing something new to the table. Kenny, on the other hand, tends to maximize profit over artistic expression. I mean, I get it, he is trying to compete on sales with the "big players" using only saxes and clarinets, which is a gargantuan task, but he ISN'T SUPPOSED TO. He chose his instrument and genre, which by itself means he should not be able to compete with the Eltons and Princes. That's one aspect I kind of find bothering about him, he is more interested in maximizing his mass appeal by sticking too much to his formula, when he could be doing so much more. Metheny's arguments are flawed and incorrect, and I get what Branford says, but let's not pretend like Kenny doesn't have major artistic flaws, even from pop's standards. I'm not a jazz "elitist" by any means, I do like many genres (including hip hop, which I got into again thanks to Andy's opinions btw). But we can't compare a GREAT pop artist like Prince or The Weeknd with a succesful BUT LAZY one like Kenny G, imo.
Maybe he isn’t lazy, maybe he just does what he is capable of. That’s the limit of his musical imagination. And that’s enough. Across a number of genres, people love artists and bands that have a template and just re-make the same album over and over again. And people continue to buy and stream their albums, while they take no creative risks. Ka ching
@@jimmycampbell78 I think that's a worse opinion on his abilities. Then he'd be a mediocre musician. I prefer to think he is just too money-centered so he plays it way too safe out of laziness. I don't hate the guy, I do like uncreative, repetitive music too (like his or AC/DC's) but I won't pretend like he is not majorly flawed either.
Kenny is undoubtedly talented. Barry Manilow was a musical director before pop stardom, a graduate of Julliard and his second favorite composer is Chopin. Liberace had the potential to be a concert pianist. Andre Rieu's success speaks for itself. Richard Clayderman also. Success breeds envy and resentment in others.
I had a friend in H.S., who later attended Juilliard for piano, and when I asked if Liberace was actually an accomplished player, he said, "You have no idea how good someone has to be to play that well and be that entertaining at the same time."
@@zapazap Whether this species of music is art or not is exceedingly debatable, in my usual mode, such things, along with Klimt prints and Versace bags, do not appear to me as art, I used the word pandering, which is to appeal to the lowest base instincts and drives. It's strictly a commercial proposition, whereas Art, is an exaltation of the human spirit.
@@wahid-lg1kk Words in standard English usually have multiple meanings. In some e sense Bach was a 'classical' composer. In another sense.he was not. So to with 'art'. I tend to use the word to describe the practice of computer programming. You may not. Cheers!
I dont hate Kenny G. Reminds me of a discussion I had with the vinyl record man on the market. I wanted some big band music also some Jobim. He said "You cant like two different forms of Jazz" I said "I like all forms of Jazz" He got very cross with that. Primarily Bach is my first music. Alongside Dowland. Jazz comes from classical music with the blues thrown in and evolves into rock.
But will you listen to him again? That is the question. When I was first getting into jazz in the early 90s and didn't know what I was listening to, Kenny G was huge so I went to see him live in an arena (Memorial Coliseum in Portland.) I walked out unfulfilled. It all seemed so sappy, for lack of a better word. In my opinion, Kenny G sounds like a pop musician with jazz elements while Pat Metheny sounds like a jazz musician with pop elements. Calling the music of Kenny G jazz is kind of like calling the music of Joe Satriani heavy metal because he shreds electric guitar and plays some metalish riffs. Kenny G just crossed the line so far over into pop/easy listening that this is what it should be called. Just my opinion. 🙂
@@pmesa7305Words in standard English have multiple senses. In one sense Bach created classical music. In another sense he did not. So to with jazz.. If that irks you, take it up with the English Lexicon Authority. Cheers!
I remember as an 17yo Iron Maiden fan in the late eighties going to see The Shadows with my Dad. My long hair & leather jacket was a bit out of place! My Dad liked Iron Maiden & would listen to it in the car & as a guitarist himself would comment on the twin lead lines in a positive enthusiastic way. I ended up being in a function band with my Dad as his bass player. We had a repertoire of 60+ songs of various styles. My Dad cannot play anymore due to Parkinson's disease. He will sit with me and listen to "Giant Steps" & "Visions of The Emerald Beyond" with the same enthusiasm he has for Hank B Marvin is hero! John Mclaughlin is my hero , however I can play the "The savage" by the The Shadows & grin my head off while playing! It's all good music & having a magpie attitude can be enlightening!
I have fairly broad tastes that can include some kind of "slick" stuff and a lot of more earthy/gritty kind of stuff. I'm so glad to see you talking about this subject. I confess to being a recovering Kenny G "hater". As I've gotten deeper into the roots of that sort of thing with artists like Grover Washington, Jr., Ronnie Laws, Harold Vick, Spyro Gyra, Crusaders, Stanley Turrentine, etc. etc. etc. I just don't get why people have an issue with Kenny G other than him having much greater success that those who influenced this direction. Without a doubt, I think some of those early Soul Jazz musicians should have been more successful. I listen to all of those early soul jazz/contemporary jazz musicians (a lot of which actually had roots in hard bop, etc.). As much as I love Pat Metheny (he's one of my most favorite musicians, huge inspiration) I find his stance on Kenny G. to be one of the silliest things he's ever done. Thanks again for the video!!!
I don’t know if this is true or not but I think Kenny would get more of a pass if he made one album more steeped in the tradition. George Benson, Herbie Hancock and others made pop, accessible, un-jazz music that was popular but had established their bonafides in jazz before. I don’t know if Kenny G has done that but I could be wrong.
You made me watch a defence of Kenny G, and it was so persuasive i liked the video! don't tell my punk friends ok? I think with Pat Metheny it was the vanity of small difference "do people think i'm like Kenny G? oh sh*t, better say something" I own and like Pat's noise albums so i know he has a musical hinterland but i bet it was like seeing a reflection he didn't like . i think you said he made those comments in 92? the noise albums were shortly after that , maybe trying to prove something?
My wife and kids don't like Weather Report; I absolutely love them. IMHO, I think it takes a certain level of musical understanding to enjoy and appreciate some of those groups. A friend of mine once made a comment that some of the most memorable bass lines, for example, are from simple like stuff from Earth Wind and Fire, but he'd be hard pressed to remember anything from Weather Report or other jazz fusion bands. I remember Jaco ripping on Chuck Mangione in an interview and I laughed out loud. He was like "he does too much coke, eats too much pasta and f*ck him, he wears a hat".. lol.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer the Matisse of Jazz line really cracked me up, I’m still laughing when I think of it. He’s actually not that bad. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-HYxHmlbxmw8.htmlsi=yohWjotz53Gxyh_1
I think people can like what they want.I just like what I like but it is important to listen to others and see their point of view. Who sets the taste boundaries ? " It's a Matisse, they're all gonna hate me ! " Superb.
I LOVE KENNY G! I've seen him just as many times as I've seen Metheny (5-6 x) There two totally different thing and the are both fantastic. There is never a Christmas in my home where you won't hear Miracles played at some point. Metheny has plenty of simple songs as well. Last Train Home comes to mind. However, I've never considered complexity as a bench mark on its own. If you want to sell a lot of albums the music needs to be accessable as well. Also, I hate to see someone like Pat to put any other successful player down. Pat should know better. I question if that's an accurate statement.
I might be wrong, but I could swear that pianist Billy Taylor suggested Johnny Hodges the Great Ellingtonian belongs on the smooth jazz programming. And Billy meant it as a compliment!!!
I saw Kenny G when he was playing with Jeff Lorber and I was impressed, he had a hint of Grover Washington in his playing that day.His albums as a leader years later tended to fit the “smooth jazz “format,stations that featured this music were very popular for quite a few years but were eventually phased out,probably because a lot of material was pretty lame.Those stations rarely if ever played Sonny Rollins,Joe Levano or Phil Woods. I’m glad that we have stations like WBGO and others that still play mainstream Jazz.It’s kind of annoying that when you mention Jazz to most people the first name they mention is Kenny G.
I have a lot of cds of Kenny G but I never really think of him as jazz,. Now you really at some point have to talk about JAN GARBAREK, who is a proper musician really jazz and so much more!
I also love Pat's music and was disappointed by his Kenny G spray. He didn't like being lumped in with Kenny and he was desperately trying to differentiate himself from The G in people's minds. To that end, he seemed to do a pretty good job at drawing the line with musicians, but not the public.
Many 'serious' music fans and purist musicians seem to love to have their fave whipping boys to look down on whether Kenny G, Coldplay, Limp Bizkit or Nickelback. I'm not a huge fan of jazz, my CD collection being largely limited to the Brecker Bros, John Scofield, Django and the likes of David Sanborn, Grover Washington, Down to The Bone etc. I checked out Brazilian Nights and it's very pleasant for kicking back to. I guess his critics simply envy the fact Kenny G has shifted multi- platinum albums and also an RIAA diamond one in Breathless, something only a few artists have achieved.
I can't tell from your video if you've watched the HBO documentary "Listening to Kenny G". If you haven't, it's well worth watching as it explores many of the issues you discussed using interviews with Kenny, people from his past, current musicians, etc. Regarding Pat Metheny's criticism of Kenny playing flat, I've also had the same issue with Pat's synth guitar, and additionally grew tired of both his signature tone and musical direction. Pat did a very interesting cover of the Hendrix tune Third Stone from the Sun on the Stone Free tribute album. I wish he'd explore more outside of his typical work.
To be fair, his son is a fan, and I think pals with some of them, and thus Kenny G played with them as kind of a favour. The Drummer Kenny Grohowski plays with many from the jazz and avant-garde scene, Kilter and Secret Chiefs 3 to name a few.
I was always wondering why everybody hates Kenny G. I'm not a huge Jazz guy to be fair. I like Dennis Chambers, Lenny White, Victor Wooten, Chick Corea (and a few others) but I don't know much about Jazz. I mention those four, because what I'm about to say will sound crazy without context. Kenny G is talented. I've watched a few of his live performances, and he's always making me rewind and listen again. I don't even like smooth jazz, but the dude can play and write. There's a version of Champagne where he's improving a bit, and I finally just decided Kenny G is extremely talented, and I don't really care what other people think. Would I listen to Kenny G? Probably not, but that's not the point.
It's hard for who to not be annoyed?? It would annoy me to have to see his paintings on my wall. But the fact that many like it does not annoy me at all. Should it?
I always felt Pat was out of order with his comments about the G-man, (and I loved Pat's music since 1978), but think it said more about him than it did Kenny. It would never occur to me to listen to any Kenny G, but he has found his audience....and if it made a couple of people check out a Miles, or a Getz album then it is a good thing....the world is big enough for both Pat Metheny and Kenny G!!
When I was growing up in the '70s, record store bins were divided into discrete sections: Rock, Popular, Soul, Country, Jazz, Instrumental, International, Easy Listening... So, where would Kenny G records be filed today? Are his recordings marketed as "jazz" or "smooth jazz" (whatever those labels mean)? Or would thet be found in one of those other categories? Would his detractors be so upset if he were filed under Pop or Instrumental or Easy Listening? If his sin is that he's popular, is it unreasonable to ask "Popular at what?" My parents had some Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass albums and I loved them in elementary school. (I still do and probably always will.) They were catchy and syncopated and rhythmically irresistible. (Listen to Hal Blaine's drum intro to "A Taste of Honey.") Would I have been so curious about Miles Davis in high school if I hadn't been weaned on Herb Alpert? I don't know. But it was one stop along the way. I've never heard anybody talk in any detail about Kenny G as a jazz musician, so I don't know why he should be demonized for being popular at something I'm not sure he even pretends to practice. I'm suspicious of "purists" of any kind (musical or racial) who express outrage that somebody is poisoning the blood of... whatever. In the case of music, the idea of purity is preposterous, since musicians are constantly listening to other people's music, incorporating influences: rock, funk, disco, prog, hip-hop, classical, reggae, "world music," endless permutations of so-called "fusion" (a pretentious term I hate and associate with Spinal Tap's "Jazz Odyssey")... I don't know for sure that I've ever even heard Kenny G (maybe piped into a mall in the '80s?), and I've certainly never sat down with it. But I've bought hundreds of jazz records in the last 50 years, along with recordings in plenty of other genres. Do those who consider themselves jazz musicians really think Kenny G is stealing listeners away from them? Maybe that's what Branford Marsalis is saying. So, I don't get it. Is it the hair? P.S. An interesting, lightweight overview of utilitarian music is Joseph Lanza's 1994 book, "Elevator Music: A Surreal History of Muzak, Easy-Listening, and Other Moodsong."
Excellent analysis. Kenny G is a bit like Andreas Vollenwieder (the New Age harpist from Switzerland). He is also both jazz and "easy listening" / "ambient"
Wes Momtgomery sold out but he was never vilified. I don't think many people realize how hard it is to make a living playing. It's a business like any other. The purists would have the musician be true to his art and starve to death. That they could celebrate!
On Duotones, he does a great cover of What Does It Take (To Win Your Love For Me). It's a very faithful rendition. The Pentatonic scale is like a universal language. Sir Duke's amazing break is an exercise in the Pentatonic scale.
Don't know if you have heard this one, but here's the joke on Kenny g: what does Kenny g say when he gets out of an elevator? Wow! The music in there was really good 👍!
Jealousy, that's why Kenny G is hated by jazzers. He's not that bad and makes decent "background" music that isn't difficult for the great unwashed to relate too. Another great video. Did I tell you that you make great background videos, a bit like the old days when you'd have Radio 4 on and every now and then you'd stop what you are doing and listen intently. All the best MT
I think the big problem is the use of the word "Jazz". It exists as (for what I understand) as a sort of umbrella term for improvised music. BUT it also seems to refer to a specific type of music played mostly in the 1950s by acoustic trios/quartets etc with piano, upright bass, drums and trumpet/sax. So now anyone that even mentions the word "jazz" in relation to their music is instantly compared those artists from the 50's. But shouldn't that music really be called bebop, not "jazz"? Its like nobody gets all upset if Nirvana get classed as a "rock" band, just because they dont sound like Led Zep or Cream etc. Because they are really a "grunge" band. Thats a sub genre of "rock" music. So Kenny G is a "jazz" artist. He's just not a bebop artist and I doubt he ever claimed to be one. So Pat can calm down.
I agree it is about the word jazz. People think that jazz lovers are sophisticated in some way and want to be included in that group but don’t like the music. Jazz is usually appreciated by people with a music background that gives them a context in which they can understand what is happening in the music. The people who want to be known as jazz sophisticated don’t actually get an understanding of the music so naturally they don’t like it. Companies and musicians are more than willing to deliver a product these people will like and they call it jazz. But it is just a different kind of music with the same label Nobody wants to answer the question “What type of music do you like?”with elevator music.
I was waiting for you to address the "major rhythmical problems" issue from the moment you quoted that complaint from Pat Metheny. Good to have that criticism addressed by a drummer. This is a well thought through and presented defense of Kenny G, and jazz with popular appeal in general, Andy. I've never listened much to Kenny G so I confess I've given some credence to Kenny G criticisms from "authoritative" jazz experts, all while thinking "gosh, I've quite liked what little I've heard from him. Perhaps I'm not as hip as I like to think I am." You're absolutely right about G's ability to present with a beautiful tone. I've noticed and appreciated that in particular on his soprano sax, which I think because of its register is an instrument too easy to play with a strident, squawking, irritating tone like some nagging scold. But that's just me. Anyway, thanks once again for doing these thoughtful opinion pieces, Andy. Now I'm going to go away and find me some Brazilian Nights.
Hmm. Now I remember why I've not listened to a great deal of Kenny G. He's one I need to take either in small doses or in particular moods. Very little in the way of challenging dissonance to make you really appreciate a revolution. It all feels very predictable with him; at least that's how he strikes me. I kept wanting him to stretch out, or at least stretch out my expectations. Listening to his Corcovado I thought, "yeah, I don't need to hear that version again." Give me Getz with Jobim and the Gilbertos. Give me Frank Sinatra, Diana Krall, Tony Bennett. I tried.
It's music without challenging the listener with what can be done harmonically, melodically, and technically. A lot of music and instrumentalists/soloists seem to land on opposite sides of that coin.
Obviously, if Kenny G 's album were only moderately successful, say in the few tens of thousands of copies, the prominent jazz luminaries would not say anything. The criticism of him is really a covert criticism of his audience, which is much larger than what most jazz elite possess.
I think it’s new age chill, not jazz. There’s mood music that sits in the background and isn’t challenging. It’s got its own niche genre and space in music.
Kenny was an accountant in NYC (who almost married a friend of mine, who is now penniless) before he made a calculated last attempted to cash in on the music business riding the burgeoning tide of smooth jazz.Pat Metheny's point about what he did with Louis Armstrong song is legit but there is nothing a serious jazz musicians can do about it because Kenny generated so much money for the labels. Jason MIles point about smooth jazz twisting the notion about what jazz is legit but at the end of the day it's really the American public education system and lack of the arts programs to blame for Americans horrible taste in music.
My first aquaintance with Kenny G was a casette with the album Silhouette, which I found quite enjoyable and catchy. Then I got a sample album from the early 90:s, The Collection, which I dug (I had to look this up in my CD shelf where these CD:s were sitting next to my Garbarek collection). It had tunes like Against Doctors Orders, catchy things, but also some syrupy ballads on it. Then I also got the 1992 Breathless and after that I lost interest, as it got more repetitive and bland. A while ago I stumbled on a live concert here on YT, and I was surprised by the really washed out noodling solos by Kenny, and I started to really understand the criticism of him. He really stuck to a scale throughout his solos and almost played it mechanically, fast, but really without any variety. And the audience seemed to love it. But I didn't. I felt he ran his genre to the bottom, wore it out completely, all routine, no inspiration left. That said, Pat Metheney does not always thrill me, and he has certainly made some very commercial albums too, which isn't necessarily wrong but it means you are able to connect with a broader audience, and I believe Kenny G is an expert in doing just that.
Well put indeed, finely balanced piece and anti elitist. All Kenny G can do is what he does. There’s not a lot he can do about his albums becoming coffee table records but keep on playing. I’ll try and listen to something by him but I just hope you don’t start trying to sell Kiss to me! If that succeeded I’d have to cut my ears off.
I’m sure Kenny G doesn’t give 2 hoots what anyone thinks. His mortgage is paid off……..he doesn’t offend me in any way - he can play, his band can play, and people enjoy him. So what that he’s not edgy - neither is Ed Sheeran, but he is seen as some sort of pop messiah by the kids!
Dear Andy - thanks for this interesting topic. you miss just one aspect: Pat was mainly upset because of the Louis Armstrong duet - - this was another calculated move of Kenny G just to make more money with a dead jazz icon who cannot defend himself anymore being used
The Thomas Kinkade of jazz. Making money doing what you love to do and more power to him. If as a jazz "artist" you need to work harder not smarter more power to you as well.
OMG. Hopefully they won't kill him though... 75 million sales?!? I see a reason right there to hate the guy. Is Kenny G like the Richard Clayderman of Jazz? It'd be interesting to find out if Andy is secretly a fan, which I guess not...
Kenny G. Seattle born and bred. A few years younger I used to see Kenny around town in the 1970's when he played in local R & B bands nights and weekends while studying accounting (graduating Phi Beta Kappa and Magna Cum Laude) at the University of Washington in Seattle. A super nice guy and one of the most ambitious people I ever met. He was planning from the start to be a star. And he did work at it. No question. A decent player for sure but nothing extraordinary he hustled and deserves all kinds of credit for what he's achieved. I don't see any reason to trash Kenny as millions enjoy his music, nor do I have any reason to listen to him. He's not very interesting musically. Last time I saw him was in concert in Seattle, 1982 when he was a member of the Jeff Lorber Fusion. Lorber followed Miles Davis. By this time in his career Miles liked an early night so he played first on the bill. The band was Mike Stern.,Marcus Miller. Bill Evans (saxophonist), Al Foster, and Mino Cinelu. And they were tight and great fun to hear. This was when "Jean Pierre" and "Back Seat Betty" were in the set. And some Gershwin "My Man's Gone Now". Anyway, after 75 minutes of Miles Lorber was a bit of a...comedown. And just about the most uninteresting thing about the band was Kenny. He'd started the circular breathing thing and that trick, coupled with masterful showmanship (the hair was always important), and an ability to give an audience what it wanted, made him very popular if, for many serious music fans, almost completely self-indulgent. He is to music what the Olive Garden is to cuisine. It will fill you up but you might be a bit carb-hungover from the experience. He's a scratch golfer, a pilot and rich as f**k. None of that is all that surprising if you'd crossed paths back in the day. He knew what would sell. He figured out how to deliver it. And he went and did it.
Reminds me of the knock on the Big Man, the great Clarence Clemons. All the jazzers knocked his playing but damn, have they a solo as fitting and as absolutely moving as the one in Jungleland? Plays the song as a musician should not the ego. ( am aware of its creation)
I could see why Kenny G’s success would sting Pat Metheney because Pat Metheney was able to go into a very “chill” accessible territory that could have been commercially successful to a greater degree and then he had the additional credibility of his more adventurous work. . .the album “Off-ramp” has some great chill tunes. . .that tune “James” is outstanding but it is also extremely “feel good” or whatever. .it has some complexity, swing and all that but it is innocuous. . But it’s great!
It's just smooth jazz, the smoothest of smooth jazz, or instrumental pop, if you like it...call it anything...and enjoy it in the appropiate moment....
Brandford nearly as much as Winton is a sloppy Crap Talker. I saw Kenny G in one of those Mixed Music Marathon Nights in Montreux, so in that Night you had Jazz Fans, R‘n‘B Fans, World Wide Music Fans and Pop Fans. But I am quite sure that People who love Jazz go astray by listening to Smooth Jazz or Instrumental Pop. He does not endanger Jazz. Side Note: Art has to be good, it does not need to be authentic. There is maybe one Fear: That Label Executives might push their Artists into Smooth Pop. In Continental Europe Jazz gets State and Municipal Grants, so Jazz Concerts in many of these Countries are not expensive. A three Days Ticket for a High Class Festival as Vienne in France is 105 Euro. Try to get a Taylor Swift Ticket for that Price. So Entrance Fee does not make Jazz Elitist in two of the most important Jazz Markets of the World: France and Germany or in secondary Markets as Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria and the Netherlands. The Elitism of Jazz comes from the Fact that Jazz Musicians want to make Music that is rhythmically, melodically and harmonically appealing to themselves. Prog Rock Fans should dig that, don‘t they.
Personally I find Metheny's comments ironic, because I essentially find him muzacy. I listen to Aja for a relax or nap in the spirit of yacht rock. Horses for courses.
i definitely agree that the pentatonic scale has a lot to do with his success. it's incredibly popular because of its apparent simplicity and has been, in all sorts of forms, an integral part of many cultures since time immemorial. that's something metheny either doesn't understand, or doesn't want to admit. ironically, metheny himself uses pentatonic approaches quite a lot and his music oftentimes slips into easy listening territory. the vitriol might well stem from g's substantially greater success.
i remember his music used to be played early morning on BBC 2 Ceefax pages back in 2003/4 ish and songbird used be played everyday and guess what I miss it 😂
