Why JEAN GREY and MADELYNE PRYOR are Already DEAD - The Philosophy of X-Men 97 Explained 

My theory is that the phoenix only ever possessed Jean and Madelyn only ever had a memory of being possessed. That’s why Madelyn wasn’t able to use the phoenix to survive Genosha but Jean was able to use it to defeat Sinister.

The Phoenix saving Jean then immediately “leaving” could be a story point later. Phoenix is now a separate identity/consciousness/personality within Jean’s mind. It imprinted on her (because of her strength and her powers) and now a copy of the Phoenix is always a separate personality within Jean. It surfaces to save itself from death, but now that it’s awakened, it wants more control. Jean will have to deal with literal split-personality disorder. Jean, Phoenix, even Madelyn, they’re all now separate personalities that live within her mind, and the battle over which personality is truly her would be an excellent storyline for the show to pursue. Jean is the rule follower, Madelyn is a little more loose, and Phoenix follows only its own desires.

Poor Logan even though there's two Jeans he still didn't get any! 😂😂

Clicked for the info😊 Stayed for the philosophical lecture🤗 Loved puppy Doug the most 😍

Maybe the real Jean Grey were the friends we made all along while discussing X-Men 97 these past weeks

After that Goblin Queen costume, idgaf, Madelyne Prior is the real Jean Grey now 😅

This is what I love about comics. These kind of deep philosophical discussions that can come from the hyper reality of super heroes.

Believe it or not, this video made me like the Phoenix moment so much better as it adds an additional layer to this identity story, and we never know what they'll pull next from the various Phoenix stories and what they could try to do with it to build upon this appearance. The great thing about media is all of us consume it in our own way and what resonates with one of us may never do so with another, but that's what's so great about the diversity of life and the fact that we are constantly changing and evolving and learning from one another.

Imagine if Jean, Madelyne and Cable went on Maury. 😂

Since Madelyne is the one who actually gave birth to Nathan, that means that Sinister made the switch at minimum 9 months prior to X-Men '97 episode 1. It's possible that he made the switch in season 4 and that Madelyne was acting as Jean throughout all of season 5.

I look at Phoenix as a force that will live with Jean forever. Let’s remember in the last episode of the Phoenix saga, it was the Phoenix who revived Jean after she destroyed herself. It is now confirmed that Jean passed away in the space shuttle and when she went deep into the sun. I guess Phoenix will show up anytime she senses Jean’s life is in peril. I guess this makes her immortal, maybe Wolverine does have a shot once Scott’s gone lol

This was so much fun!!! Please do it again!!

I was not ready for that cuteness overload of puppy Doug at 5:17

Omg I was NOT prepared for puppy Doug 😢

I believe the plan behind this sloppy reintroduction of the Phoenix was to let us know that the Phoenix force can never truly be separated from one of its hosts. And it also attaches itself to the host's heirs, a piece of it at least. Madelyne was never Phoenix, so Cable didn't inherit it. I suppose you can make the case that his genetics and Madelyne's could make them good hosts, if necessary, but we're talking about Jean and any future children. I believe this scene was setting up... . . . . . . . . . . . . [SPOILER] Rachel Summers, the daughter of Scott and Jean, not Madelyne, who is destined to become Mother Askani in Cable's future timeline, and who was introduced in the last moments of Episode 10.

Was a damn good video with great questions asked . . . Also was a good use ov clips from things not related, yet clearly in the same vein to add context. I appreciate your mind. ❤

This was great, love any philosophy talks and tying it in with my favorite comic/TV stories makes it even better. Please get Nicholas M. back for more videos!

I think Jean Grey got replaced during Beyond Good and Evil story arc.

Yo Ryan, get that man on the payroll ASAP! You guys should be having way more conversations like this one! I'm thinking a whole new segment where you and Nick keep giving each other different ways of thinking about scenes and philosophizing in universe... Oh yeah Ask him if he has any pets or puppets too!

This is such a great theme and guest for a video. Id love way more of this in depth analysis with an expert over blind speculation videos any time.

This was suuuuper interesting and fascinating!!! More philosophical talks like this please haha!

I wanted Cable to meet Madelyne.

Awesome! Please more philosophy segments. Would be a great addition to "x was right all along" videos

The truth is if I was there, I would have talked myself into a three way with Jean and Madelyn. Maybe even get Morph and Mystique in on the action and have a Jean Grey free-for-all.

Hey Ryan and ScreenCrush, I love this conversation! You should start a podcast dissecting more shows and episodes like this! I’d subscribe in a heartbeat.

Thanks for that interview. It was captivating and I hope you will invite Nicolas again to talk about other metaphysical topics surrounding super-hero stories.

Much like Rick's daughter and her clone, Jean doesn't want to know who is the original because it doesn't matter

An interesting conversation, but in no way does Madelyne have good reason to believe that she was first. Not only did Beast clearly explain that Madelyne was genetically younger than the original Jean, but the fact that the Phoenix also had a connection to Jean and not Madelyne is blinding obvious proof of which one of them was the original, real deal.

Awesome episode!!! More, more MORE!!! THKS!

This was an epic omega-level nerd out! Thank you so much!!👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

All of these Jean-Madelyn discussion everywhere, but no mention of two Beths. I was kind of expecting how people would compare them.

This is a fascinating discussion.

Gonna need a puppy Doug T-shirt..... NOW!!!

jean is literally phoenix in comics phoenix in jean now and forever in comics and she can use power of phoenix wherever she went her most powerful form is white phoenix of crown which her become ominiversal being

Nicolas needs a RU-vid channel. Get on that bro.

I still sort of believe that Madelyne was the mind and memories of Jean Grey and Jean had the Phoenix second hand memories which is why Jean couldn’t remember her memories. It wasn’t till Madelyne died that Jean recovered her memories which makes me think they merged back once Maddy died. I feel like it makes the most sense too given when Jean spoke about things she’d say, “I was the Phoenix. Whole galaxies called out to me” to Scott where as Maddy cared more about the things in Jean’s personal life like the child and husband she had. I really liked Maddy and it felt like a punch to the heart to learn she died in the Genosha attack.

Thanks guys. I would not have gotten into this show without you

She doesn’t get kicked out, she decides to leave By herself, this dude didn’t watch the show 😂😂

10/10 banger video. Bring this man back please.

Ryan, please do more content like that, it was really fun to watch

didn't expect the House of Mogh name drop....but I'm here for it.

The bottom line is Jean is the original & Madelyn is a twin clone of Jean!

The Ship of Theseus by Plutarch may also apply here too: The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their places, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same. - Plutarch, Life of Theseus 23.1

Give Nicolas his own segment. Dude's great!

There's a quote by Alan Watts that talks about this. He talks about a school university and says that even tho the faculty and the students change all throughout the years, even the structure of the buildings, is it still the same university even tho there's not a single original structure.

I think this the question of "Who am I?" and "What is my soul?" is more applicable to Rogue than Jean Grey.

Very interesting conversation!

AMAZING discussion guys, such a wonderful example of the types of deep questions / discussions comics generate

OMG! Puppy Doug was hilariously cute, hahaha, looks like a lil ball of static 😂😂😂😂

more of this please it was a great 🔥 could easily watch another hour

This is a discussion that can happen in Transformers. Transformers souls are contained in their spark. But there's sparks can be transferred two brand new bodies and they'll be the same person. At the same time, their sparks can be split and bring new life to different robots with completely different personalities.

They switch between episodes 18 and 19 of season 4 (right after the second wedding). Jean is kidnapped by Mr. Sinister at the end of episode 18. Cable is reintroduced in episode 19. That allows Jean to be the Phoenix and Cable could make sure that they "rescue" his mom and not Jean.

The editor not putting January Jones in the Mad Men clips 😅😅🤣🤣😂😂

Wow!!!! Madelyn Prior’s name comes from the folk band, Steeleye Span!!!! I never realised that and never connected “Maddie Prior” (fabulous singer) with X-Men!!!! Mind blown!

"The aching and the breaking is the making of a soul." - The Residents.

I love the discussion...I think you're also discounting that the Phoenix is a sentient being. It only bonds and manifests fully with its only chosen avatar. In the comics tbe phoenix cannot be at its peak being in an avatar if its not Jean. In the animated series Phoenix chose Jean and probably would not manifest if its not with the real Jean. I also think that they were switched after the Phoenix Saga... after she was resurrected where phoenix took a piece of fire from the X-Men. Madelyn is a tragic figure, unfortunately she lived the life that the real Jean deserved. Jean does not even have Madelyn's life during the marriage or having ever having nathan not until she had her psychic bout with Madelyn. Scott loved Madelyn because he thought she was Jean but yes he was married to Madelyn not Jean. Jean studied and is discerning Madelyn's Life. She embraced her clone to the point that she eventually called Cable "her son" and Cable also referring to Jean as "my mom" even if the real Jean did not birth him but her clone. So it's really that complicated to follow.

When you started talking about Jean and Madelyne's memories merging together, I immediately thought of RWBY when as the show progressed Oz's consciousness slowly began to merge with Oscar's.

Reunion is when the switch happened in XTAS

Cool video!

Phrasing Ryan LOL. Great philosophical discussion!

Can Madalyn summon the Phoenix? Does the Phoenix recognize Madalyn? When in the show did we see the Phoenix last? Maybe it appears as a way of telling us when Jean was last Jean

Maddy Prior is the singer of British folk-rock group Steeleye Span. It wouldn't surprise me if, in-universe, Madelyne picked up Scott's Steeleye Span album and read the credits.

And they called him..... Puppy Doug

@ScreenCrush your philosophy adviser fell short on a few points, as did your supositional thinking; in the cartoon, its obvious that even if Jean is wrong, and the Phoenix she felt deep insider of her is a psychological projection of Jean imaginig her strongest self. Though there was some fire, this "phoenix" was a telekinetic form of mostly water, and Jeans ego.

This was so dope. Only things I disagree on are The Phoenix showing up. I didn’t feel like it took me personally out of the 97 experience because, as they are expressing in the current X-Men comics the Phoenix is apart of Jean grey(and every mutant) always. So giving Jean that extra boost when she needs it will always be a thing. As far as Madilyn Pryor’s name, and how she got it here wasn’t her(Jean’s childhood best friend who was killed) named “Maddie”? I think that was her way of honoring, or giving her(Maddie)new life.

You brought up The Phoenix Force, but you also brought up that ever since The Phoenix bonded with Jean they became linked forever no matter by how little at the time. When The Phoenix aided Jean in the final episode of season 1 of X-Men '97 they were separate beings due to the events of the Dark Phoenix arc of the original show. The Phoenix still very much cares about Jean so it would obviously spare some power to aid her in an emergency like that final episode called for. Notice how it didn't stick around and only saved her from the immediate threat and then left so the X-Men would have to do the rest on their own. Thus, Jean is not guilty of any of the crimes committed while the Dark Phoenix was in control of her body.

Im surprised that Gamora in GITG3 didn't come up. Though her situation is much less complicated.

I feel like the girl born Jean Grey was the woman we followed for most of the series in the 90s, and Madeline is fairly new. Philosophical, I think our soul and our mind are the same thing.

Good talk!

I think that the Phoenix is going to be making more frequent stops to Jean in times of need. Eventually, Jean will just adopt the name Phoenix, as she does later in the comics. She also ends up dying at the hands of Magneto.

It seems that Madeline Pryor never had the Phoenix force in her. After the Phoenix helped Cable, Jean said the Phoenix was finally gone. When Madeline was angry, she only changed into the Goblin Queen. So the 90s Phoenix was the real Jean Grey.🤷🏿

@ScreenCrush I listen to your episodes like podcast, if you have an hour long video, it’ll help me get thru my work shift guaranteed 👍🏾

What if we think of telepaths like cell phones. Would that mean that Madelyn was a burner phone and Jean was the one the burner (Madelyn) copy the data from. Then would that make the Phynix force the cloud storage? The same cell number, same data but three places it could exist, the original phone, and burner phone and the cloud. It because a superpower within a superpower as being a telepath like Jean allow for back-ups to exist. This was a cool video thanks @Screencrush!

You have Document A... you make an exact copy... they're now both Document A, yet different (so Document A and Document A1). You start making marks on Document A and making different marks on Document A1. They're not the same anymore. Each has it's own distinguishing traits. If you made the EXACT same marks on both copies then they'd still be technically the same document, yet Document A1 would still be a copy of A (though to the naked eye... they're identical). That's the issue here with Jean and Madelyn. For their to be confusion as to who is who, they would have to mirror one another's actions, attitudes, and choices IDENTICALLY. What's throwing everyone off is the fact that their memories "update" and sync with one another. If not for that action, then there'd be no question that they're two distinct people with a shared past. But that's sloppy writing. Think about it... when Jean get's angry at Madelyn and Scott for they psychic tryst, does Madelyn also remember and feel herself being angry at what she's done? No. It would be SO confusing trying to live TWO lives at the same time and make sense of it! Jean could be watching a ballgame and Madelyn could be rollerblading at 6pm on a Friday... and EACH would have to remember experiencing BOTH AT THE SAME EXACT TIME! No, that doesn't work. Jean should have her memories up until she's switched with Madelyn (and after she escapes) and Madelyn should have Jean's memories up to that time but also her OWN memories from that time forward. Each person is defined by his / her experiences and choices.

I love marvel, but I'm getting a bit burnt out on the channel's many videos on this series as well as Deadpool & Wolverine. Could you please do a break down on Outer Range Season 1 & 2?

Jean isn’t the Phoenix, she was able to harness a portion of the power the Phoenix leaves in entities it encounters. A lot of people have used that power that the Phoenix leaves within them, Jean’s daughter met the Phoenix in the time stream and that interaction left a portion of the cosmic entity inside Rachel, she didn’t become the actual Phoenix and neither did Jean in the comics, Phoenix swapped places with Jean while her body healed and became lost in the thoughts and emotions it took from Jean and believed itself to be her. When Jean says I am Phoenix,it’s not a literal statement, she is channeling the power inside of herself and that power is part of Phoenix. Madelyne isn’t Jean outside of being a genetic copy with implanted memories, she didn’t make the memories, she didn’t experience the making of the memories, she just has them. If Sinister had put anyone’s memories into the clone, it would believe it was that person. It has the Phoenix memories because Jean has them from the psychic link between her and the Phoenix and Sinister took them, Madelyne never experienced being the Phoenix, she remembers what it felt like because Jean remembered, borrowing memories doesn’t give ownership to them. I recently had a conversation with cousins I grew up with and I was telling them a story about something that happened to us as kids and my one cousin started laughing, he said that didn’t happen to you, it happened to me and you were there. I thought about it and I remember myself in the memory and it happened to me but it didn’t. I was there and I witnessed it and somehow reshaped the memory to be about me, the mind is a very complex thing and we sometimes make memories to answer to what we believe. Madelyne believed she was Jean so she made it true but she wasn’t. Madelyne was a copy and with copies, there is a blurring of the original, it deteriorates the further you get from the original as did Madelyne in the comics, she became her own person who wasn’t like Jean once she started living her own life, making her own memories. It’s all fascinating and I think this show handled it as well as they could with time constraints, we are getting a lot of stories truncated for time but it’s done really well.

I can explain. I think. The phoenix is dormant much like Wolverine's berserker mode. He can't control it. Its triggered when in dire life threatening moments. You saw phoenix appear when Jean sunk into the water. She appeared, did her thing then disappeared. Later on Jean will be able to control or conjure the phoenix at will.

Theory: The "Phoenix" gave the last of it's essence left in the OG jean, to resurrect her, and then be reborn. I could be wrong but I remember a Phoenix egg in the comics. Which could pit the X-Men against the Shi'ar over it's power. Which I think was the comic storyline, I could also be very off. Love the videos! Very though provoking on this specific one.

When you think about it Logan has this same situation with him going to other versions of himself and not knowing who he is or the memories he possess

Needs a Johari window done in the X Mansion!

I thought we all theorized that the switch happened during "Beyond Good and Evil", specifically episode one

The original was the one that was violated kidnapped experimented on. The clone didn’t experience any of that. Plus being a clone she was probably planted for bad reasons which makes her untrustworthy.

I hope Marvel doesn't mention Phoenix in any media for awhile, like forever

Jean? Dead? What's dead may never die.

Continuity of recognition.

Memory doesnt just make who you are. As best clearly stated. I am assuming in the cloning of memory that somehow the OG Jean memory where taken or fragmented into the clone to create this confusion. Also. Throughout the OG series Sinster was trying to get Jean. If he all ready her why would he try to kidnap her? I think that during or sometime after Beyond Good and Evil Sinster kidnapped Jean to make Madelyn. I agree that Madelyn just shares Jean"s memory of the Phoenix but the Phoenix would know the OG from a clone.

I think that Phoenix moment is fine they wanted to get it out of the way they don't want to have it as a crutch so as long as they don't use it from here on out it's better to get it over with

Wow, I thought this was Wisecrack for a sec with how philosophically deep y'all were getting.

He keeps saying that Madelyn was Jean for 20 something years…we don’t know when they were actually switched. I believe it was definitely after the Phoenix saga. Otherwise Jean wouldn’t have been able to summon the PF. In comic book time that’s only been a short while. Which also means Scott’s wedding was to Jean not Madelyn. Juan didn’t have the memories at first-that’s true-but it was because she had been in a coma! It takes a while to get reoriented. It doesn’t make her any less “her”. I do feel bad for Madelyn…she hasn’t done anything wrong. But she’s not Jean.

I think I've got a pretty good idea. When she might have been switched. Now hear me out on this. The first idea I have cause remember. There have been several times gene has not been with the x men. We can exclude the Phoenix dark Phoenix thing. Because she was in space that whole time. And then she came back, but let's try. The savage land Jean was with sinister for quite a while before the x men had arrived plus sinister's men had to keep the x men busy before bringing them to the citadel, so I'm gonna assume that when he gene in Xavier. And more went to sleep that night. That might be when she was cloned. But remember clones need a while to grow. Unlike the Mary Jane clone in Spider-Man, the animated series that was taken DN. A from hydromann after e was cloned. Well, it was added to hydro man if you will. She immediately was cloned into an adult. So it could be possible that miles. Warren may may possibly have work with mr. Sinister, possibly again. This is a hypothesis possibility. The second idea I have is. I'm trying to think of any other times gene has been up when Apocalypse had sinister. Bring her to the access of time. She could have been clone then too. Because remember she was gone for quite a while. Almost 23 days I think it was 3 days. I don't know, but with Apocalypse messing with time. That could have also have done some altering. But even though Xavier was with Jean at the very end of that, he was not with her at the start of it when the nasty boys sinister's crew had grabbed her. So those are my only to thoughts of win. Jean might have been switched. The club made not have needed to have time to age that much. This isn't exactly gallata from the DCA u. And she started out as a call in the took a while. But at least we knew that clone she wasn't super girl. We knew the difference but yeah that's kind of my idea

post something on acolyte pleaseeeeeeeeee

In the show, madaline says that it wont matter read magneto mind because its only at this point in time etc...

When "Orginal faint Jean" popped up in the middle, confused me a little bit, but I got it.. I watch you tube videos to confirm what is going on lol. Screencrush & Heavy Spoilers ..

This is fantastic, please do more stuff like this. Can we please have greater philosophical discussions about this bonkers, wacko universe, more videos, talking about the economics maybe the MCU? How does social work happen in this universe? Are businesses becoming pro mutant to make money, like when companies are real gay for pride month and then come August 1. They don’t do anything to support the gay community anymore? you know stuff like that?

I love this topic about Jean right now

Ok this is a strong reach and it's just my opinion I think switched happened during X-Men the animated series Till Death Do Us Part (Part 2 of 2) because when the X-Men arrive to save Scott and Jean from Mr.Sinster he was removing genetic material from Scott and Scott and Jean hadn't to long had woken up in the lab after being attacked on the boat I just literally watched this episode and I'm just throwing it out there plus that episode also give you a back drop into the start of Morphs trauma that he suffered at the hands of Mr Sinister once again just throwing this out there

This was an awesome reach of a write up! Collegiate level dope!

Twins are identical clones but they both have souls because they have separate lives and minds just because they share experiences doesn't mean difference is finger print and voice inflection but there than that u can compare the clones due 2 there ages I Believe they both have an identity

The reason that Cyclops loved more Madelyn instead of Jean Grey was the full loialty of Madelyn towards Scott.

This subject is extremely complicated but the way i look at it is that Jean and Madelyne are kinda like NAS servers storing Data i think they are permanently linked by their shared psychic power. Mr Sinister Cloned Jean to create Madelyne and i can only assume transferred Jeans memories to Madelyne giving her her sense of self as "Jean". As Jeans memories were transferred it is likely the reason Jean is unable to recall her memories as they were stripped, using the NAS annalogy Mr Sinister used Cut and Paste rather than Copy and Paste to transfer the memories. But like 2 Nas servers set to back up and Sync I think that when Jean and Madelyne's minds are both active their shared psychic connection acts like a bridge gradually syncing up their memories. I think Mr Sinister kept Jean mostly in a form of Stasis which means her mind was inactive and unable to connect to Madelyne, when she wakes up knowing nothing of herself she escapes Mr Sinisters lab and her powers start to passively sync with Madelyne allowing memories to slowly bleed accross the passive connection firstly making her know she needed to get to the X-men but also how to physically get there. Once they are aware of each others existence and start to actively Psychicly interact with each other that passive connection becomes active to copy the missing info from Madelyn back to Jean to restore the memory damage Mr Sinister caused during the original memory transfer like the scene of Jean's childhood, madelyne remembers it but Jean is recovering that memory from Madelyn restoring it to her own psyche. I think that the memory transfer goes a step further than recovering lost memory as it also transfers any memorys that Madelyne personally identifys as "Jean's" memories which extend as far as the point that she personally excepts she is not "Jean" this is why the real Jean remembers Madelyne's pregnancy as at the time she identified herself as "Jean" Any memory labeled as belonging to "Jean Grey" is backed up and synced between them solidifying the base persona of Jean which they both extend from, Jean continuing the persona and Madelyne using it as a foundation but branching off as an individual (Kinda like Thomas Riker in Star Trek). Only once they both identify themselves as seperate distinct individuals does their bond stop syncing their memories until the point where madelyne dies where the bond affectively does a large info dump into Jean's mind transfering Madelyne's memories as an individual to Jean which in it's own way now muddies the waters once again as to who Jean is as she amalgamates the sum of both Data sets, she starts wearing her hair down, she states while fighting Mr Sinister that Madelyne fights with her now. But while she now has all Madelyne's memories she is not Madelyne as it's information not emotionally linked recollections as you can see by Madelyne recognising Cable with a look but Jean needed to link to Cable's mind before she could connect it to her knowledge of Madelyne recognising Cable.