The reason why I like Joel is because he is a terrible person. He just feels real. He's not your generic good guy character. Just a guy forced to do horrible things to stay alive in the apocalypse
@@victorreznov6320 I don't think we played the same game Joel was a badass saw to much of his daughter in ellie and couldn't let her die but whatever like i said you're gonna have to call every survivor in the apocalypse terrible just because they have to get their hands dirty abit you pussy
@@legionman2441 look at the way he interrogates people lol when it’s for Ellie we understand but you do realise he’d do that to others who never did anything to him? And yeah no shit the apocalypse makes people shitty guess what tard just cause it’s the apocalypse don’t make it shitty.
Yes it does. When you talk about If something is bad it is always realtive to something else. If Joel was an bad before shit hit the fan, than yes he is a bad person. But once shit has hit the fan and everyone else morals has gotten worse than no he would be considered just normal their for Joel is no longer a bad person.
Reminds me of in Logan where Charles tells Logan off for swearing infront of Laura "So she can't gut a man with her feet but she can't hear a few naughty words" 😂
Rick Grimes is a better example imo. We see Joel 20 years into the apocalypse but you actually see Rick's defining moments that make him the ruthless killer that he becomes.
@@clackkokicks7731 i wouldn't even say that. I actually think Joel is more ruthless..for example the interrogation scene or the fact you can blow enemies to bits depending on how you play. Im just saying you actually get to see the transformation of Rick, compared to Joel where we just see the end result of what that world can do to a man who's lost everything after 20 years. I think Rick is more interesting for the simple fact he has multiple character development arcs and actually struggles with completely being a savage up until the end of season 4 where he just accepts thats who he is when he needs to be and no longer feeling remorse or guilt about it.
@@recklessnotion1899 i think its a bit different from rick, cause joel is just a civilian meanwhile rick was police officers (pre apocalypse). And also rick is trying to make the world better because he knows this isn't the right world they use to live in, meanwhile joel is a survivor that follow what the end of the world rules do
I think it’s somewhat silly to describe a character as “a terrible person” in a universe like the last of us. You would be extremely hard pressed to find any person still alive in tlou universe that we wouldn’t define as a terrible person. He’s likely gone further than many others, but still he hasn’t completely lost himself, evident in his connection with Eliie. And while Joel may have made a selfish decision, you can’t definitively say it was wrong.
Exactly. He’s a terrible person by our standards, living in our world. But he doesn’t live in that world. You can’t live in that world and be a “good person”.
And honestly, I just really can't get behind the idea that he's "terrible". Sure, he's terrible to people he barely knows but a lot of people with trust issues are already like that in OUR world where there are no risks of getting infected by a mushroom virus that takes over your whole body. And people seem to forget the fact that he lost his daughter due to him trusting that a stranger would help them in their dire situation.
Yeah relatively speaking, Joel is a decent guy. Not terrible, not a saint, but he is descent. He was friendly to Henry even after being left for dead, did his best to hold up his promise to Tess, and tried to comfort Bill after he found his partner dead. He's obviously done some fucked up and selfish shit, but nothing that surpasses the antagonists in TLOU.
I just like how real Joel is. He’s flawed and he’s selfish to an extent. Ellie mentioned about a dream where she was in a crashing plane full of people. The absent pilot is a metaphor for the missing cure. Ellie wants to save mankind, but obviously "she didn't know how to fly a plane". That can also be a metaphor that the Fireflies will not be able to synthesize a cure despite Ellie's sacrifice. Thus, crashing the plane with no certainty if there would be any survivors. That is some heavy foreshadowing. Personally, this is what heavily drove me (or in this case, Joel) into saving Ellie. This game never has coincidences. Extracting Ellie's brain would've been in vain. Besides it’s not like all the cannibals and hunter’s would stop just because there would be a cure. Is the moral choice of the world to sacrifice one life for the sake of many? Yes. But remember this is an unforgiving world where morals have been more or less thrown out the window. Joel is likable because I think a lot of us would make that same decision he did were we in his shoes.
@@jimmycevallos4468It was on orders from the military. The military clearly had orders to kill survivors on sight. A bunch of Joel’s were probably created that same day because of direct orders from the government. Along with the government creating martial law and oppressing civilians why would Joel or anyone like him not have a grudge against the military and therefore the government and any paramilitary groups claiming to be a higher force
i think its less about the theoretical nature of it and more based on the principle, but context is also important. you can't just say "it would've been in vain" like its a concrete fact because we will simply never know. we see it as joel does because we are him throughout the game, and we experience what he experiences, through his eyes and POV. some might say that the risk was a necessary one, like ellie herself, as she feels the guilt of not being able to do something impactful with her immunity. but the game left many agreeing with what joel did. which is an interesting conversation in itself, morals and all. i dont think joel is a terrible person personally, based on what we've actually seen him do. he was a broken man that was trying to be whole again, and in that process he made an extremely selfish decision. i don't think that makes him a terrible person, it makes him human. that's why we all love joel so much, he is incredibly relatable. compared to the hunters and other enemies we see throughout the game id consider those to be much more terrible than joel ever was.
for me Joel is the perfect example of an anti hero. a villain would have killed ellie to doom the world, a hero would have sacrificed the girl to save the world. the anti hero said fuck you to the world and protected the only thing that was left for him to care for. the world took everything from him, so he took everything from the world.
His alignment is chaotic neutral to chaotic good. By the end of the game, he does try to do the right thing when he can but he will do what's necessary to protect his family.
@@christhefiend The alternative is that she isn't there to be sick or injured, she isn't there at all. Also, just a question, how do you think other settlements survived?
8:42, I think Tommy didn't just have a change of heart because of the attack. After the attack, he sees how much Joel has started to care about Ellie. Joel told him earlier in that conversation 'Tommy I need this'. He now sees why Joel needs him to take Ellie to the fireflies. Joel doesn't want to go trough the same pain of losing a daughter again and just wants to stay numb. Tommy knows this like no other.
I like to think that Joel did feel guilty towards his actions at the hospital. Doesn't mean he would go back and change things but I'm sure the guilt of dooming the rest of humanity is still there. During the segment where Ellie is exploring his house after he died, she goes into the bathroom that's connected to his room. Inside, the mirror seems to have been removed. It's been theorized that Joel removed it himself due to not being able to look at himself in the mirror after what he did. This is all just speculation of course but I just thought I'd bring it up. Really enjoyed the video.
@@thethriftytypewriter Joel realizes the weight of his decision. The moment he enters the elevator with Ellie, he looks up as if he's looking up towards God and mutters, "oh, God..." Also, in an episode of Play, Watch, Listen (video games + variety podcast) (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-J_erTqnYOxc.html, 1:05:46 to 1:14:56) Troy Baker said that even though Joel would do it all over again... He DOES realize that he's done something pretty fucked up (hospital decision and the lie to Ellie). It's why he dedicates himself to the community of Jackson: helping other patrolling folks, actively going out on patrols himself, keeping Jackson safe, helping the strangers he finds outside (something that folks in Jackson did), preparing the next generation of patrolling folks (he trained Jesse and both of them had respect for each other). Joel was an important part of the community there. He also worked as a luthier. He had experience as a carpenter. I'm sure that he helped with construction projects in the town. He was a valued member of that town (one only needs to look at all the flowers outside his house), and becoming an asset to the community was Joel's way of doing penance for his transgressions.
Joel actually gave the mirror that is missing to Ellie. It’s in her little garage house. That being said he definitely feels guilty about what he did. He’s terrified that Tommy will hate him when he tells him what happened in the beginning of part two. That’s why he gets choked up and he’s unable to speak for several moments after Tommy tells him that he understands him. (Also small thing but I love how when we’re controlling Joel, we don’t get to see his moments of emotional vulnerability with the camera there and when he’s given the picture of Sarah, because he wouldn’t want us to see it) But the mirror thing is Joel just being a nice dad who wanted his surrogate daughter to have everything she wanted/needed. There are two mirrors up in the en suite bathroom that has all his grooming products on the counter like hairbrush, toothbrush etc.
I’m glad someone else brought up Tess’ last wish. For him to deliver her to the fireflies. “You must feel some kind of obligation to me.” I’ve thought of that too but no one else seemed to bring it up, like, ever which is so weird bc it’s one of her last words to Joel and last words ever. But I see how having a daughter might change that by the end. And I think that if Tess were to survive, she would also be a parental figure for Ellie also. I could tell before she died
Tess didn't know they were going to kill her for some idea that Ellie might be the key to a vaccine. And when you look into this further from real scientists, they tell you all they would need is a blood sample, not to open up her skull and hope for the best. The fireflies where useless and Joel knew this. He made the right choice and I would argue Tess would of changed her mind too
The tape recording Ellie finds at the hospital wasn’t actually of Marlene, as she wouldn’t have had time to make it before dying. It was actually Mel, who was a student of Abby’s father
@@lyndseyring8704 nope, was Mel, you can really hear it when she says “it would make no difference” she says it rapidly and out of breath like Mel always does, like later when she tells Abby “Scars are tough”
@@uhuhuh1966 Ellie was humanity’s last chance & Joel wanted to doom it all for HIS OWN WORLD. HIS PERSONAL HAPPINESS. Okay. If anything happened to Ellie outside of Joel’s control, she tripped & died or anything, that would’ve been it. All these pyramids, & schools, people, & futures, gone. Cuz Joel wanted another daughter. Even though he’d probably die soon anyway, he wac getting up & age & didn’t live the healthiest lifestyle so, I’m just saying. Joel was a true selfish piece of shit for that in my opinion man. 🤷🏾♂️ I love him but I never kiss ass, unless it’s a beautiful woman’s & I mean that literally. 🤣
Joel did terrible things but he still remains relatable and most importantly, human. I would not describe him as bloodthirsty as I do not see any hint of joy when he is fighting. But without a doubt, he's a hardened killer. You'd have to be to survive in such a world. Most importantly, any argument that Joel should have surrendered Ellie to the Fireflies overlooks the existence of one crucial character in TLOU: Sarah. If we gloss over Sarah's story and the profound effect she had on Joel, it'd be easy to dismiss Joel's decision at the hospital as sheer selfishness. But the entire game follows Joel's inner struggle against bonding with Ellie but forming a surrogate parent relationship nonetheless. Tell me, what kind of insane, demented, inhuman kind of father, would give his own daughter up to die? No father at all. In the same shoes, I'd do the same. As a father, nothing less is expected for your child.
It is implied that Joel at one point was a hunter, just like the guys who tried killing him and Ellie in the city as they made their way to the fireflies. Ellie asks him if he killed people and him not answering. That and Tommy saying he had "Nightmares about those times" when Joel was saying he kept them alive. So it can be taken that Joel was brutal earlier on in the apocalypse, or in other words "bloodthirsty".
@@kostadim7892 Implied. Not stated. Not shown. Maybe he killed hundreds of "innocent people," maybe NONE. All he admits to is being on both sides of an ambush. Tommy's statement about "nightmares" could not be more vague. It would have been a nightmare without Joel, too. That is all we have on the record. Everything else is speculation.
Very well said. I just played through part 1 on ps5 and I absolutely loved it. Describing Joel as a terrible person is kind of obsurd, given the circumstances. All he was was a hard working, loving father from the very beginning. Only after the whole zombie apocalypse did he have to kill to survive. I love Joel as a character. I probably will not purchase part 2 though, because I've seen too much about what happens and I really don't like it.
exactly, we know joel and how he is, i don’t think he’s a terrible person, but he’s done terrible things, but its the apocalypse. it’s different than our world. what we must focus on is our time with him, we come to know him, just like all the other characters in the game
just like what troy said, joel saw ellie as his daughter by the time while taking her to the fireflies, he said "joel did save the world because the world is that girl"
joel is a good father, it reminds me of "the quiet place" because the parents in the first season (2nd too) are actually a real life married couple who created a whole movie talking about how much they will sacrifice to save their own children, i think its a perfect example of how much ellie means to joel + English is not my first language, sorry
@@donovanumbra9704 remember they had other kids they brought before and they still didn’t find a cure they could have ended up killing ellie and been no closer to a cure. I think joel did the right thing
One of my favorite lines in the whole game is the part where Ellie asks Joel how he knew about the “injured” man being an ambush and he replies with “I’ve been on both sides.” That one line gives us so much about his character. The things he has done to survive must’ve been so brutal, and that makes him such an intriguing character. I really want to know everything he did during that time jump from the opening.
I love Joel so much because despite how he was a horrible person, he feels very real, relatable and he is the perfect example of how most people would turn out to be if they were to fully adapt to the apocalypse in order to survive. Nobody in this series is 100% pure. Not even Ellie, Tommy, or Abby!
@@elishawilson5342 that’s unfortunately how the Internet is. Quite a few characters that did very bad things have a lot of apologists. Joel is just one example. I was honestly surprised to hear people defend the horrible actions of Snape from Harry Potter, not to mention Cersei from GoT.
why is he a horrible person? One action that makes him a bad guy. He is in the fucking apocaliptic world and fights for survival every day, yes ofc he had to kill many people, quite brutally too, but i havent seen one inhumane thing i wouldnt have done in his situation.
Every time I watch the ending encounter at the hospital in part 1 I think all of this could have very possibly been solved it they let Joel talk to Ellie and didn’t treat him so damn hostile . I know they needed an ending level for the game but the firefly’s had no reason to be so hostile to Joel from the jump .
The problem is the fact that the Fireflies took any agency a little girl has in an operation like that in the first place. If they had actually let Joel talk to Ellie, that would’ve meant that the FF actually cared enough about Ellie to talk to her. I also think Marlene knows Joel well enough to know when he’s about to try something.
@@REChronic54 The fireflies had already talked to Elli. Joel wasn't her father, he was a carrier (they are not aware of how things have changed). It was Elli who wanted this. Joel is basically a Fedex that starts shooting at you rigth after you signed your package.
@@limonsoda I think Ellie sensed that she was gonna be a test subject but she was never explicitly told she’d die from an operation. She would’ve still given her life if she knew but the fact that FF/Marlene chose to not tell her leads me to believe that they’re scared of her opposing, which means they don’t actually care about what she says. I just think the FF and Joel both contribute to the disaster.
@@limonsoda correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe we ever hear from anyone that the fireflies talked to Ellie. We don’t hear otherwise either right?
Exactly. The Fireflies messed up royally. Just talk to Joel and Ellie together and let her make the decision. She would have said yes and Joel would have most likely respected her decision even if it killed him inside. But no. They just kidnapped her unconscious body and were going to leave Joel to die without any supplies or weapons. They seriously thought that was a good idea to do with someone like Joel? They’re idiots and hypocrites. That’s all they are. Hell, even if Ellie said “No I don’t want to do the surgery” they probably would have just knocked her out again and shot Joel in the head. They’re power hungry terrorists with a god complex. I don’t feel bad for them whatsoever. Joel made the right choice.
I don't feel like Joel is a bad guy for saving Ellie, and honestly think the fireflies were. They were about to kill an unconcious child without her consent and would probably be unable to make a vaccine, as told through notes in the first game.
Fr if you actually go into the nuances Joel’s decision wasn’t THAT despicable if you just take into consideration how incompetent the fireflies were as a group I mean cmon hiring some random smugglers to deliver the cure for mankind across the post apocalypse country doesn’t seem very professional plus even if they somehow created a vaccine would they even be able to distribute it? Would it even matter this far into the apocalypse?
@@tamd5670 Except the in-level notes imply that the chance for a cure was ever slim, so since it's a game and the writers say the chance of it working was slim, it MAY have worked but LIKELY wouldn't have. There's also no hint of knowledge in the first game that Ellie knew she would die to produce the cure; TLOU2 is a major retcon in that department which it uses to justify Ellie's hatred and split from Joel.
@@tamd5670 The second game was written by Neil Druckmann who got a woman fired and had all her work scrapped on Uncharted 4 because he thought his ideas were better. The woman was critically acclaimed and audience favorite writer/designer/director Amy Hennig. His original idea for the TLOU1 was that the fungus only affected and killed women. His first original story that he wrote and got published, A Second Chance at Sarah, can best be summed up as "A woman I'm not romantically interested in needs to die so I can fulfill my love quest." Seems the more believable reason for why Ellie saying she needs to die was because Neil may have some issues with women.
@@tamd5670 Consent doesnt work like how you think it does. You HAVE to give consent. Otherwise you are a rapist who says "she wanted it". Thats not a good look. Similarly, never did Ellie actually give consent to be killed for a CHANCE for the cure. And since its a game, the cure might not have worked. It goes both ways.
I never understood the whole, "Joel did nothing wrong" idea. He's a tragic, terrible, and ultimately selfish person. But that's what makes me love him as a character, because he is so flawed and complex. You can also see/understand why he makes certain decisions, but doesn't mean they are right or he did nothing wrong. He did possibly condemn the human race to the apocalypse (as there was no assurance the vaccine could work), but still an amazing character
because anyone who was actually into tlou and read the noted and audio logs and payed attention can see it was not going to work 1 audiolog from the fireflies says its very slim 1 note mentions how in 1 year 60 percent of people were dead 2 the state of the hospital 3 the doctor being a vet
@@massy9437 Even Joel says, "They were actually going to make a cure" in the opening of the Last of Us 2. He doesn't say, "It wasn't going to work so I had to get her out of there." He believed and knew it would work. But he chose to do what he did anyways. Even Joel knows the stakes of what he did.
@@Tcab96 1: I am far more willing to accept material from the original game than I am willing to accept material from the sequel, given how disrespectful and contradicting of the original game the sequel is. It’s pretty clear to anyone with a lick of intelligence in writing can see that the writing in TLOU 2 is agenda driven and takes liberties to established lore instead of a natural evolution of what was originally set up. 2: Even if the reverse engineered vaccine was 100% going to work, which it wasn’t, that doesn’t solve how morally bankrupt the whole of humanity is. Making David immune from turning wouldn’t have stopped him and his group from being cannibalistic rapist murderers. What is there to save? Nothing. The world has been over since 2013. I wouldn’t expect people to endorse Joel’s decision, but if you don’t understand it, then don’t bother.
@@treymagathan847 1. The material from the sequel is made by the same guy who made the first game you're conveniently willing to accept and dick ride. The topic of whether or not the cure would or would not have worked has absolutely nothing to do with any "agendas" and you can't demonstrate it does in any capacity. It's a complete non-sequitur. If you don't like the sequel, that's fine, but don't give this bullshit excuse about "agendas" because your video game daddy died. 2. It would have worked. Stay mad. You're demonstrating you don't know what you're talking about not only when it comes to the game but also humanity. The reason humanity was so fucked was because it was dealing with a global and overwhelming threat that was the cordyceps. Did you think humanity was all hunky-dory and singing Kumbaya prior to the 21st Century? Humanity's history is bloody and fucked up. Absolutely nothing humans did in the Last of Us is at all any different than humanity's first ascent into the 21st century. And yet, nonetheless, humans managed to have prosperous civilizations that resulted in the most peaceful time in all of human history. Not to mention, not all humans were monsters in the Last of Us. Settlements like Jackson seemed perfectly fine and on the up and up. Demonstrating that humanity can be perfectly fine and come back. At least with a cure, there was a hope and a chance things could be righted in a better direction faster. I don't know why you bothered to comment if you didn't even understand the subject matter to begin with.
@@Tcab96 This was their retcon. In part 1 the notes told us the vaccine wasn't a sure thing, but in Part 2 that was all forgotten and they acted like it was a sure thing.
Being a “hunter” was the only way to survive at that time. Despite what we want to believe about ourselves given the right circumstances we all would do unspeakable things to survive.
@@Veachie no he didn’t. He had no resources and had to acquire them some how. Imagine you living in an apocalypse with nothing. You’d soon turn to killing to survive. We all would.
He is actively a predator. He is not just a survivor. Tess was a survivor, and still kept way more of her soul than Joel. Even in the start of the game he was willing to let other children die, if that gave him a heads up (and he didn't knew anything about zombies or anything at that point). He is a selfish ass. I like him, but i would never trust the man.
@@limonsoda how do you know that? We're not really given all that much on tess' past and she's as stone cold as Joel so i personally beg to differ. She also admits that they're both terrible people in her final moments so that's her own honest opinion.
Joel isn’t a “terrible” person,He just only thinks about himself and his peers especially ellie,human civilisation had already fallen and had already collapsed so his actions are justified because he loved Ellie and the world was to far gone to be saved
He did stuff so bad his own brother left him still getting nightmares of the years they spent together, he must've done some pretty bad stuff then. We know he used to be a hunter and we've seen what those people do in the first game so we know that Joel killed people just to take their food and clothes because that's what hunters do and you can't really say that was justified because there are other means of getting clothes and food that doesn't involve people being killed over it. I think it's safe to say that Joel was a terrible person, maybe he redeemed himself but he did some awful things.
Absolutely not justified. You may agree with his reasoning just fine, but he was A) not doing the job he was asked to do, B) Taking a dump on top of Ellie's choices and Tess' wishes, C) Actively not allowing humanity to have a chance at reversing the Apocalypse. Yes, humanity has fallen, but is not extiguished, and the very fact that he only thinks on himself, shows how selfishness is his only motivation. The idea that everything is "too far gone" is just a weak justification (never stated in the game) to not allow yourself that just love a peace of shit human being, and trying to turn him into some kind of hero in your mind. I Love this character, but i knew if it was ever gonna be a sequel, he had to pay. Saw that miles away.
That's literally why he is terrible though lmao...you can't just say "well I loved them" to justify dooming humanity and brutally murdering people. The fact that so many people in the comments are liking this and saying similar things is wild
It's not justified. You can't just say that humanity has already fallen like that exonerates Joel's decision. He made a choice, a selfish one that not only doomed the possibility for humanity to make a cure (whether this saved humanity or not it's not the point, the point is that it wasn't his choice to make) and didn't care about Ellie's wishes nor intentions, not to mention Tess's. I love this dichotomy and decision, and it does make it a great character because of his choices, but to say he isn't terrible, is just you fooling yourself and justifying the not justifiable.
@@limonsoda there’s actually journals and notes in the game that you can find that proves that the fire flies didn’t know what the fuck they were doing like they didn’t know how to reverse engineer a vaccine so regardless of killing the choice Joel made There is no way humanity would have been saved even with a small window that could’ve been given thanks to Eli’s sacrifice and let’s not forget the fire flies didn’t give her a choice
what scares me about joel is how anyone can turn into him. if you push someone to the point where they have to survive whilst dealing with losing the only thing they cared about…. you can create evil. I hate how I described joel as evil… tbh he was just a conflicted man who made a selfish decision that honestly anyone can understand.
Good video man. But just a couple things I noticed that were off . When Joel is looking annoyed about bill complaining about “Ellie” as you said if you read the dialog he’s actually talking shit about Tess for sending Joel on this mission with Ellie. With it still being a fresh wound in Joel’s mind he’s noticeably upset .
It’s honestly what makes me like part 2 so much. We love both of these characters and want what’s best for them, but it can’t happen, and Ellie never got to say goodbye to him so it makes it all the more tragic. I don’t wanna get too in depth I’ll save it for the Ellie video 😂
@@thethriftytypewriter I would of liked if the had them on good terms again and THEN kill joel, which i think would of made his death more devastating and impactful.
Joel is a SURVIVALIST. He isn't terrible, he knows it's a harsh world that needs a harsh but strong resolve. He isn't terrible, he is realistic in the world that the Last of Us is set in.
IMO leaving Ellie to the firefly’s is way more terrible then saving an innocent child from being murdered no matter if you thought Ellie would be ok with it, she should still have the right to consent
And if the firefly’s were so sure that Ellie would say yes why didn’t they ask her? Because they didn’t want to risk her saying no. But somehow Joel is in the wrong
I just love how Joel isn’t just some power fantasy blank slate for the players to project themselves on. He feels like a real guy with real flaws who the player just so happens to control during gameplay. Naughty Dog wasn’t afraid to have situations where Joel can piss players off with his actions like being mean to Ellie after she saved his life or forcing Tommy to take her off his hands. But at the same time, you totally get why he is the way he is because of that prologue with his daughter. That’s always in the back of your mind when you play the game. He feels like such a real person.
He is the asshole who tries to kill you for your supplies, and don't give a shit. If you were the protagonist of the game, Joel would be a boss you have to kill.
@@limonsoda If everyone's terrible, then who is truly terrible? Out of all the bad things Joel did, so many people have done way worse. ABBY being one, thats why it dosent work. Naughty Dog telling us "Joel bad" while playing with a character that is and has donde much worse. Truly a "lol" moment.
@@limonsoda Not really, if Joel encountered someone with supplies he'd rob them but he wouldn't kill them. I mean he could have just killed Bill after he gave them a car.
@@RatedRLoquender i never said he didnt deserves it but his character is 1000% miss handled that split the fan base, Joels death was the problem as i said before, its the way it was handled and it was extremely miss handled by the story teller
This is just me but I didn’t care for her and her friends story until I played the game a second time. Owen is such a tragic character. God damn, I loved this game.
@@EJD339 I feel like Abbie raped Owen lol. like, obviously she didn't but the scene where they did the deed was a lot lol. I don't think he could have stopped her
@@EJD339 I’m on my second play through, after beating it upon release. Definitely made me realize how tragic Owens story is. I’m still indifferent about Abby. She lost her dad, sure. But everything else is out the window. Recordings you find in the first and second game show that her dad wasn’t even sure the surgery with Ellie would provide a cure. Coupled with the fact that, in real life, it’s impossible to cure a fungus infection of the brain (although I understand it’s a fiction story). From what you gather, her dad was an egotistical maniac who thought he could save the world by sacrificing a child. So Joel didn’t cheat the world of a certain cure, he just denied it’s possibility. To save the child he, in his mind, redeemed himself with. Abby can kick rocks in my opinion.
I wish I liked her more. She's so close to being a good character, but damn do they waste her. I hope they fix her in a sequel. Her biggest sin is she's boring more than anything.
He's a terrible person by our standards...but we don't live in that world. He's a stand up guy for the zombie apocalypse. I don't think his decision to take Ellie was terrible. I'd think anyone unfortunate enough to lose a child and fall in love with another one, woulda done the same in this world. I don't think Jerry would've given up Abby. It would've been a really tough choice. Your mind would be telling you it's a no brainer, but your heart would disagree.
Jerry said that he wouldn't have but it's okay if other people say it just not okay for Joel because the whole entire point of the second game was for you to hate him
@@PapaWalterWhite no, the entire point of the second game was not for you to hate him. it was to show a different perspective on his character, and his decision of saving ellie ultimately had deadly consequences. the game effectively painted him in a bad light because when we are playing as ellie, she is upset at him for lying to her and she feels betrayed. when we play as abby, we see him kill her father from her perspective. we as the player have the ability to play multiple different characters and understand their motivations in a different way, if we have the empathy to do so. that is the beauty of these games and how the they use the medium of video games so successfully. if you thought the entire point of the second game was for you to just hate joel, you completely missed the point of the entire game
@@aaronbissonnette yeah they try to make you understand the perspective of a character that is very dislikeable they show that his actions have bad consequences but the thing is his actions wouldn't have those consequences if they made his character right Joel wasn't a f****** idiot therefore that would have never happened. The thing is is that how you see the game I see the game this way because I played the first game many times and I understand how the character is supposed to be portrayed they actively portrayed him in the wrong light to make him look like a villain and the reason I believe that is because his character did not act the same from the original game. They changed even certain scenes inside the game to make him look awful every single actor inside the game try talking s*** about Joel including Neil druckman himself they try to justify this character it's basically them making a Joel rip off and then trying to promote it by using Joel and then s******* on his corpse. I understood the game The Game's easy to understand the thing is they did it wrong I've seen this story a thousand times I understand what they were trying to do but the point is they didn't seem to understand the first game at all. And also they try asking you to sympathize with a certain character a certain character that does not sympathize with anybody else if you were to look on the media look how people act to this character look how the writers act to this character watch all the interviews you seem to understand where I am coming from. Why did Neil druckman have a f****** Golf Club as his cover photo on Twitter you don't see any photos of Joel on his Twitter you see photos of Abby you see photos of Ellie you don't see any photos of Joel because he f****** hated him he talked s*** so many times about him. He changed his character and made him f****** be tortured tried to make him look like a villain. He used Joel in a bunch of advertisements and lied to his fans the game was meant to make you hate him because he f****** hated joel.
@@PapaWalterWhite again, you completely missed the entire point of the game. if you see abby as the hero copy rip off joel and joel as the villain then you aren’t using the power of being an outside observer (the audience) for every character in the game correctly. all it takes is a bit of empathy and understanding, but it seems like you’re just focused on his death than anything else
This video is utter tripe lol. Joel is a survivor and a parent who's done what he's had to do. That does not make him "terrible". Lmao. But then again I suppose you have to think Joel is a terrible human just for part 2s story to even function. So maybe that's where this dumb narrative has come from.
Just because he did what he had to do doesn’t mean they weren’t terrible things. Both are true. That being said, i don’t think that makes him a ‘terrible person’. But he did suffer the direct consequences of his actions, and there’s no real way that anyone could say otherwise, regardless of how you feel about the story.
I just finished The Last of Us for the first time, and I think what I appreciated about his character was that he is very clearly not a "good" character, but he is a great one. And the creators never tried to shy away or change that about him. He's a bad dude who does a lot of bad stuff. But he is loyal to a fault and when he loves people he truly loves them. I think it was excellent characterisation by the creators and they clearly spent a lot of time on him
I disagree on calling Joel a "terrible person". Yeah he has done some brutal things, but it was to survive in a cruel and unforgiving world. He had to harden in a world that changed fast. But deep down Joel is still a good man. You didn't see him eating people or r*ping little girls like David and his people were implied to do in Part 1. There being actual true monsters out there that werent the infected. And honestly the cure wasnt a 100% guarantee. Plus even if the cure worked, the world was too far gone at that point. To you really think groups were all come a unanimous agreement to rebuild society? I doubt, that cure would be used a bargaining device and there would be power struggles. Plus there probably would be factions that prefer the way the world is and wont want to conform to any sense of law and order.
Joel is a horrible person, but he’s not a bad guy. He loves his two daughters and he never stopped loving them. It’s like my favorite quote, “A hero would sacrifice you to save the world, but a villain would destroy the world if he ever saw you hurt.”
Joel is a lot like Rick grimes in the aspect of doing whatever it takes to keep the people you love safe. I guarantee if Judith or Carl were in Ellie’s shoes, Rick would do the same thing that Joel did. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s okay but that is why those characters are loved so much by us. Of course they are bad people, but the things they do to keep the ones they love safe seems justified. When Rick bit that guys neck out to get away from the claimers, he was doing it to get out of the situation they were in so his family would be safe. Those two characters are two of the best characters ever made up and would love to see you make a video on them being similar.
I wish The Walking Dead would’ve done a better job at establishing that there are no “good or bad” people. Even though they try to insist that Rick and his group are morally grey, they still come across as the only people who are more “sane” compared to everyone else who seems more evil
Difference is that Joel was a hunter, which means he committed acts that would make even the likes of Rick and Negan shudder. Tommy has nightmares of the days he spent with Joel, and in the world of TLOU that’s pretty impressive
Rick and Joel are pretty much nothing alike. The only thing they have in common is the fact they'll do whatever they have to but the reasons for why are totally different. Rick was always staying alive so he could lookout for his people. Joel stays alive mostly for himself and out of pure spite. We don't even know if he'd die for Ellie because Joel ultimately dies as a result of one of his selfish decisions. Whereas Rick "dies" willingly to protect his people. Rick has his cold moments too but Joel is very linear in that aspect and I don't know if he can consider people outside of Tess, Tommy, or Ellie as family. Joel was content with his coldness but Rick always struggled with it and always came out of the other end of it realizing not everybody is bad. Joel is more in line with Morgan when he had to "clear" than he ever was with Rick.
Great video man, truly. Here's a couple of things I picked up while playing through it a second time. In the first one, after the Pittsburgh ambush, Ellie asked Joel about the ambush, wondering how he knew what was really happening, he vaguely hints at being someone who has ambushed people. Also in the first one, while in Jackson, Tommy tells Joel, that he still has nightmares from the stuff they did. I mentioned those, to add up to the point that Joel, was deeply and fundamentally changed. And I don't blame him, losing his child, his reason for being and losing the world and semblance of peace would change damn near anyone. One important motivation for Ellie is this. When she and Joel spoke about possible reconciliation, there was hope that their relationship could be rekindled, I imagine she went through the mental gymnastics of wondering how the relationship would be, would it be the same, different, better, worse, was there any reason to hope. All of those thoughts had to be running through her mind, and then... Joel is brutally murdered. No resolution No rekindling No answers ... Ever. To have that hope violently ripped away, right in front of her, I understand why she would not let it go. Could you, could any of you? I said once and I'll say it again, The Last of Us 2 is a Dark Masterpiece.
I agree. I especially love how Tlou2 keeps us hanging with the Joel flashbacks, not revealing the true motivation behind Ellie's vengeance until the very end.
Joels relatable af. Everyone would love to sit here and say they'd sacrifice someone they love for the entire world, but I don't think most would. I wouldn't.
Not just sacrifice, *sacrifice because someone they never met and can't vouch for said to without evidence.* We *know* they wouldn't because people made a call to arms to destroy 5G towers because they cause the beer bug, and nobody but people with the IQs in the double digits (if that) agreed.
@@thorthewolf8801 She says that because she just found Mel's corpse (another pregnant woman) and thinks Ellie & co. killed her without any remorse. She's blinded by rage. An "eye for an eye" type of mentality. If she truly "enjoys killing pregnant women", she would have killed Dina regardless of Lev's intervention 😂.
@@b.u.l.1734 But she never cared about Mel. In most scenes they were together they were arguing with each other. Besides, Abby was a homewrecker, she seduced Mels babys father. When she finds their dead bodies, she doesnt even acknowledge her. Yes, she only stopped because of Lev. Great!
@@thorthewolf8801 I mean... yeah, it's actually a great thing what she does. Would you spare the person who killed your lover and all your friends? That's a pretty comendable thing for a person who is supposedly "terrible". Just saying... 🤷
Joel isnt a bad person. We would put ourselves over the rest of the world too. Joel is smart and calculated. He risked his life (100's lf times) for this random young girl. He builds a relationship with her then takes her in and treats her as if she was his blood.
Anyone who decided to fight instead of dying or getting infected would have to survive the way Joel did. Had nothing to do with him being a bad person. He even tells Ellie he has struggled for a long time with surviving. Im tellin ya id like to see how good of a person you would be if you were a real man surviving in a zombie apocalypse.
He’s still a terrible person, I would kill the whole world for my family, I’m doing it bc I love my family but that doesn’t mean what I’m doing isn’t selfish
While I agree that Joel is not a good man I would like to point out that the fireflies are as bad if not worse in my opinion. Joel and Ellie have voluntarily traveled for months so that that they can help and have grown close as time and shared trauma tend to encourage. When they get there the fireflies keep Ellie in an induced coma so that they can kill her for a chance at a cure, they never give her an option. Ellie would likely have agreed based on what we know of her character and she is the only one who would have had a chance in talking down her surrogate father. The denial of that choice turns the fireflies into unforgivable child murderers and to me justifies Joel's actions against them.
I get where you're coming from but I'm fairly sure they didn't realise that she had to die until after she was unconscious and that still didn't give Joel the right to just kill everybody and take away her choice to choose as well.
@@iliyas6531 there is literally nothing stopping them from waking her up after they find out to allow her the choice. As to the amount of killing, the only person tou have to kill outside of cutscenes is the surgeon who will not be deterred from killing this kid, so 3 total
@@MCChibby What if she says no? Then what? Both parties are scared of the consequences. Both parties are scared of the answer thats why joel lied to her multiple times and thats why they didnt wake up ellie. Its hypocrisy at it finest and thats why people love the game. Because its soo human we are biased by nature to our own side.
@@slickstar96 If she says no they just kill her anyway, they have already shown they were willing to murder her. Letting her choose gives the opportunity for a yes and would have shown the decision was still hard for them, a last plea for absolution for what they feel they have to do. I still love the series it just makes the fireflies and the surgeon in particular look more like mustache twirling villains and less like a desperate militia trying to save humanity
@@MCChibby i understand what you're saying but i feel that then they dont have leg to stand on if she says no e.g jerry has a daughter abby he wants to go through with it to "save humanity" so calls ellie the "host" to not feel bad about the situation but if it was his own daughter no chance which is why he says nothing, because he knows he wouldnt be able to do himself once again, hypocrisy but soo human they wanted to believed and so stopped at nothing to believe anything that got in their way they dismiss it to further their cause as seen with the jerry and marlene scene The whole p2 is the ending scene of p1 tenfold thats why people enjoy p2 no one is good no is bad they all are humans making decisions for their own cause.
I feel that Joel was 100% at peace with his death. Obviously it was painful but the fact that Ellie told him she wanted to make things work the night before was all he needed to be at peace. Plus he got one last glimpse of his baby girl before he went. Joel regretted nothing and was ready in that moment to leave this world. His morals were indeed skewed but it’s all a matter of perspective and circumstance. Just like Tommy said, I personally can’t say I would’ve done differently for those I love and that’s what so beautiful about the story so far of the Last of us.
Thing is as far as he knew at that moment, Ellie and Tommy was next. And it was because of his actions and negligence. From what I see that last look would be from someone who thought that they failed to protect what they loved. If not brought harm unto them.
People treat Joel and Ellie way different than they treat other main characters in apocalypses that have done the same things to keep their families safe and I don't get why. Lee and Clem from Telltale's Walking Dead, Rick from the TV show, they all kill a lot of people to keep their kids and families safe, but the game and fandom both treat Joel and Ellie like they're trash for doing the same thing, while the other characters in other series are heralded as the stories' heroes. And TLOU2 wants you to like and empathize with Abby, who is just as big of a piece of shit as Joel and Ellie, worse imo, yet the game and the part of the fandom that actually liked TLOU2 favoritse her to an extreme degree, treating Ellie and Joel like villains that have to be punished narratively at every turn and also like they have no understandable motivations, when they actually do. All while treating Abby like a blameless victim that does no wrong and deserves to live and have a happy ending, when she had the exact same motivation that Ellie had. I don't get the double standard.
He wasn't a terrible person before the outbreak or at least I don't think he was. Always makes me wonder how much the need to survive can change a person. Being a good person in that world will probably get you killed. In our world he's considered terrible but in that world maybe he's normal.
The old Joe , the nice guy, he died the moment his daughter got killed that night in such a terrible way. what we see is how a nice guy become human without goals , like a animal without human feelings, but still keeps going until he experience what means be alive , again, thanks to Ellie.
Wendigoon made a great video about the failings of Part II and a major part is the characterization of Joel and Ellie. They villainize them. I think Joel 100% made the right decision at the end.
How do they villainize them? It never says to you in the game that Joel and Ellie are evil. It shows you that all of them are morally grey characters and that actions have heavy consequences. For example, Joel ended up lying to Ellie about the Firefly situation, so Ellie decided to search for herself and she found out that he was lying to her for years. So the consequence of that was Ellie not wanting to do anything with him for several years, even if they lived in the same place. Joel's death is also a consequence of his own actions that I am pretty sure that I don't have to explain. Ellie's consequence about not wanting Joel in her life after learning that he lied to her is him dying without her getting a chance to forgive him. Her wanting to take revenge for his death had the consequence of her ending up with tons of PTSD and also physical trauma, while she also probably ended up being alone, which was always her worst fear Abby's consequence on taking revenge for her father's death also had a somewhat same effect with what happened to Ellie. She and her group of friends ended up distancing themselves from eachother after Joel's death. Also, killing Joel ended up with all of her group dying by the hands of Ellie and Tommy To finish this post, The Last of Us part 2 doesn't try to make Ellie and Joel the villains and Abby the hero, but it wants to show you that in this world, every saint is another man's sinner. If Abby and her friends didn't came for Joel, someone else would
I think what makes Joel a bit of a terrible person is his hunter backstory. Hunting people everyday and regularly torturing them is fucked. Then again when you’re getting more supplies hunting people than in the QZs, idk. But something tells me Joel didn’t just join for the supplies.
He was lashing out at the world got consumed by his inner darkness lets not foeget during the prologue Joel decided to leave some people on the side of the road even though they had plenty space in the car to help them out. His survivor instincts kicked in early on.
im just having goosebumps rn....Pedro Pascal is just so perfect for joel....for years joel has been one of my top 5 fav gaming characters ever...and the way TLOF 2 ended was amazing..i remember crying over joels death and it still gets me all teared up whenever i think bout the moment. Very excited for the series i hope it will be a little diff from the game. GREAT VIDEO BTW, i always luv the way u put ur words together and we have a very similar thought process i feel. keep up the gud work buddy
so if he chooses himself and survival over the WORLD. that makes him a bad person? even though the word doesn't give two F##K's whether he lives dies or eats or sleeps? how is that a bad person? extreme circumstances surely bring out extreme responses to emergency situations like EATING! SURVIVING! U ACT LIKE UR SO GOOD with your elite Morality view when in reality it sounds like ur looking through pampered privileged eyes. in survival situations and in WARFARE your tainted Views of Joel would dissipate. and u would find urself to do far more EVIL or A-MORAL things in order to see another day. that is a hard fact that the privileged never would like to accept about themselves.
A child can’t consent to be murdered, and the fireflies didn’t give her the choice regardless. He’s not a terrible person for saving her, it was the ethically correct thing to do.
I played this when I was young and single, then again after being a dad. It hits different. Idk I'd probably shoot the damn fireflies too if they wanted to risk killing my daughter for a slim chance at a cure.
My problem with TLOU Pt 2, if I may borrow some words from Father MoisCr1TiKaL himself, is it feels like Pt 2's story was told out of order. Joel deserved to suffer the consequences of his actions in Pt 1, I think most people can agree with that. He shouldn't have gotten away scot-free for what he did to the fireflies. It made sense for him to die. My problem with the story is the way they structured it. When opening up the game, our introduction to Abby is just some random girl who kills Joel for some unknown reason. The game doesn't even tell us that Joel killed her father until, like, 10 hours in. If you played Pt 1, and then immediately went into Pt 2 blind while not knowing anything about it, it's hard to fault the player for feeling anything but hatred towards Abby because the game doesn't even tell us anything about her until we have to play as her. I felt nothing for Abby throughout most of the game because I didn't see her as anything more than just "The girl who killed Joel", and even if that was the point, even if it's meant to mirror how she knew nothing about Joel until her father was killed by him, it matters that this information is communicated to THE PLAYER first and foremost. If the whole point of the game was to make the player feel empathy for Abby, they should've contextualized her as a victim of Joel's FireFly rampage at the BEGINNING of the game. My real issue with Pt 2's story as a whole is that the entire narrative of the game is "revenge is bad", and I will admit that they got that message across, but that doesn't mean they made an enjoyable story. It was interesting seeing how even after Joel and Ellie's relationship was soured once she found out the truth, she still loved and cared for him even if she didn't show it. She obviously cared enough to go on a massive rampage to avenge him. It almost mirrors Joel's rampage at the end of Pt 1 to save Ellie. Here's where the 2 games diverge. Pt 1 is a game full of random NPCs who you're not supposed to think twice about killing. Pt 2 actually gives names and plot importance to the characters who you kill, but you don't even remember who they are half the time. It's like, "Wow, I just killed a pregnant lady. Too bad I don't remember who she was." And I didn't remember who she was, I didn't even remember her name, because she wasn't an important enough character to ME as a player to warrant caring about her at all. Why do the game designers expect you to care about a bunch of random NPCs, when they don't even develop them as characters until they're already dead? By the time you've learned more about them, their significance to you as a player is long gone because they already died. When these characters die, your reaction is either "Oh yeah, that person." Or "Wait, who was that again?" Like I said, if they wanted us to feel empathy for these characters, they should've developed them BEFORE they died! Do you want an example of a character they killed off that we actually DID care about because they were a significantly developed, and important character to US as players leading up to their death? His name is Joel Miller. They killed Joel, and we cared. They killed Abby's friends, and we didn't care. There's a good reason for that. It's because Joel was developed. We learned who he was throughout the course of the 1st game. The whole point of the 1st game is seeing a stone-cold survivor re-learning how to love someone in a way he thought he had lost long ago. You can't just take that away, and replace it with NOTHING. And that's why to me, The Last Of Us Part 2 is a "nothing" game. I felt nothing when killing Abby's friends. I felt nothing when Abby's father died. I felt nothing when the pregnant lady died. In the end, this game has nothing to offer, but everything to take. Joel's death was not a mistake, but everything else story-wise was.
Joel was a good man... something bad happened and the world changed. And he became callused and adapted. I think some semblance of a good person is still there... but he has done a lot of terrible shit. He is exactly what I'd expect him to be.
i feel like terrible is a bit strong, he’s not a generic good guy, he’s flawed and real and he’s a hardened survivor. he’s probably the most realistic outcome of how a person changes to fit an apocalypse. in my mind, a terrible person or bad guy are the ones that torture, r*pe and killed in gangs, and whilst obviously it’s mentioned that Joel once ran with hunters, i doubt he was the worst of them and he definitely wouldn’t have r*ped anyone, and he stopped running with them for a reason. also i feel that most of the those terrible people in that world actually enjoy doing those awful things to survive and are sadistic, Joel does it cos he has to
I don't see Joel as a terrible person and most people who says he is are being very unrealistic! Joel did not go around killing innocent people but those who presented danger or as a threat to him or his loved ones but also his mission (jobs). Joel is easily misunderstood by those who hasn't put themselves in his shoes! What if Sarah lived and was the one that was immune and sought after to bring a cure at the expense of her life, Joel would not have given her up. So, Joel seeing Ellie as his daughter made it just as difficult to give her up as it would have been for him to give up Sarah! This doesn't make him a terrible person, it makes him realistic and human! It's normal for a parent to protect their child at any cost, so anyone who thinks Joel is terrible for his actions in TLOU Pt. 1 are not being true to themselves. So, put yourself in Joel's shoes knowing you're about to lose your child to potential save a humanity that's also already past the point of being saved......... What would you really do in those shoes?
The games do suggest that between 2013 and 2033 Joel did a lot of terrible things. Loss and experience, within a crumbling world, led him to dark places. Necessity was a factor as well when you consider the Cordyceps pandemic, and all the fun things associated therein. However, I don't think being shaped by your reality means you are a terrible person. Ellie gave him a reason, something to fight for, and Jackson gave him a place or chance for redemption. All signs indicate he was a respected member of the Jackson community. Absent assassination he could have lived for many more years and found further redemption. The idea that Joel is wrong or selfish or bad for saving Ellie is false. He is in the right. Ellie has a right to her opinion, but she's wrong, her life means something by living as long as possible. Dina, Cat, Jessie, everyone she interacts with in Jackson has had their lives improved by her presence and her life improved by their presence in hers. Karmically speaking, he deserved death for what he did from 2013-33, not for saving Ellie. Joel deserved to live for saving Ellie. I like Abby, but when your dad wants to kill a 14 year old girl he deserves what he gets.
Idk I feel it’s not okay to say someone is evil because of what they’re forced to do. Like what’s the alternative for Joel? His last choice in the first game was bad but to be honest it was understandable considering the circumstances (immediately prepping her for surgery while unconscious) so she didn’t even have a choice and didn’t know the stakes.
Actually Joel’s choice was the right one because if you listen to the recordings of the doctor it says “ we don’t know why her immune system isn’t reacting to the zombie virus” but the actual fact is that Ellie is infected with the right kind of mushroom because cordesyps A is bad and cordespys B is good so she has a different kind of mushroom also it’s not like you can cure the already infected
*Part of Joel’s decision to save Ellie* wasn’t out of some “She deserves to live her life” ideology (Sure it was a huge factor of his decision making) but was mainly because *HE* couldn’t go back to living without a daughter figure - so he makes the decision to rob mankind of its last chance… because it robbed him of its daughter.
I think dr anderson abby's father was a terrible person too.If maybe just maybe sat down with joel and ellie and tell them the truth the things would be different.His rush and his arrogance triggers the whole events of part2
TLOU1 is very well written and one of the key aspects of this is the logic it uses to show you *why* they didn't bother to consult Ellie. It's one of those things you'd have to think about, but even if you have just a baseline inquisitive mind you'd understand there's something wrong with the Fireflies even without specifying it. If the Fireflies were concerned with a cure, why did they kidnap Ellie and transport her far away from FEDRA"s control, instead of just handing her over to FEDRA? FEDRA's got infection scanners, they are paranoid about infection to the point of condemning buildings on the suspicion of people harboring spores, and are shown to have the means to actually distribute a cure. The Fireflies weren't so much as concerned about a cure, so much as depriving FEDRA from their ability to develop one.
Joel's fate broke my heart, but at the same time I would've been disappointed if it didn't happen. He instigated so much evil and brutality in the name of survival that it only made sense for it to all come back to him.
Wtf, you smoking, bro ? The intro is so mistakenly wrong. He's just an emotionally broken person who has never been able to recover from the loss of his daughter. That's why he's very hesitant about a lot of things and just tries to keep to himself and survive.
Joel is one of my favourite characters in gaming history, not because he's a stone cold badass, but how real he feels, he makes selfish decisions, led by HIS wants and needs, he knows the world is fucked, he doesnt care, he still does whats best for his family and those dear to him, he throws his morals out of the window to survive... Basicly, he does everything we, players, would have done, and he's okay with it, and thats why i love Joel as a character.
I like Joel because he behave like at least 90% of the population would in such a universe, very realistic character. He's miserable, cruel, but not in a cliché way, neither the classic 'broken man who regain his humanity back'!
I was a joel defender.....ugh...i hate to say it,but you might have turned me. The narrative makes sense. That being said,ellie suffered so much in part 2. The last of us 3 at least needs to give her a happy ending. Joels only legacy.
While I agree Joel is a terrible person, he did not "choose" himself over the world. Before the events of the Last of Us II, and the soft retcon that followed after, Ellie had no idea that she was going to die in the procedure. You expect a grown man to stand aside and let a minor decide that it's up to her to live or to die? please. Also, he was not a blood-thirsty killer. Cold, yes, but blood-thirsty? no.
While I see your point, I respectfully disagree. He knows that Ellie wanted her life to mean something more, and her decision on that does not change even years later, so yes for the betterment of humanity the sacrificial choice would be to let Ellie die. He chose himself and his own needs over hers and the entire worlds. That is selfish. Bloodthirsty killer, okay you might’ve got me on that one, but in the interrogation scene he was definitely bloodthirsty 😂
@@thethriftytypewriter Joel's choice was...human. That's the best way I can put it. LOL look at grown men dissecting a fictional character. That's a sign of overall good writing. Also, keep up the good work.
@@thethriftytypewriter And Ellie wanted to be with Joel after the hospital, clearly indicating that she wasnt ready to die. Also, her life can have meaning without sacrificing herself. Making Joel a better person, by making him care about another human being after his child was unfortunately killed has a lot of meaning in my opinion. By saving Ellie, he gave back the choice to her that was taken away by the fireflies.
Love is not always a good thing, sometimes people use love to justify terrible things. This is what Craig Mazin had to say after the first episode of the hbo show. I think this is true for both tlou 1 and 2 for Ellie, Abby, and Joel. Its a shame that there is a vocal minority of people who don't seem to understand what Naughty dog were trying to say, and think Joel is the hero saving princess from bowser. Then they get upset when Naughty dog uses the same cautionary tale of love with Abby and Ellie in tlou 2. I honestly don't understand how some people consume media.
Appreciate your point of view on Joel. I disagree that he's "terrible". I would say he's no worse than the others in that world; humans without society return to their primal state. A few questions to ponder... what were the fireflies going to do if the vaccine worked this time? Use it for power? Why is saving humanity the ultimate good in this world? We see very few "good" people that are worth saving. We don't know if the fireflies told Ellie and she was also 14, too young to consent. I've always thought the title was "loaded" in its meaning. I think Ellie's innocence could be interpreted as the "last of us" and that over humanity was worth Joel saving more than the now animalistic human race.
Joel maybe a terrible person but he is the product of the circumstances that he is found in, survival is key, that mainly means most people survive by being selfish He slowly learns in Part One that he can care for someone more than himself and through Ellie, it’s almost a redemption for his old self and his sins By saving Ellie at the end, he himself commits the biggest mistake and sin he could commit but this was an evil act out of love
Joel isn't a terrible person. He did all the things he did because he was forced into the circumstances. There was no right or wrong in the world of TLOU, it's a "kill or be killed" situation everyday, as far as we know, all he did was in the name of surviving, and not because he was evil. All the people he killed or tortured in the first game was to either protect/save Ellie or to defend himself.
I dont feel like joel is a horrible person or character he is very flawed and has made some tough choices but none of them are bad just very flawed there IS a difference
If you consider Joel's death a legitimate part of the story, fine, that's your business. But the reason for the anger, mine at least, is the decision to make me play as Abby. Some kind of woke bullshit lecture about understanding the enemy and sympathizing with their reasons. I wanted the game to play it out as Ellie. There was plenty of opportunity to craft that kind of story, but the game runner decided to go fully woke. I'll never play it.
I think the fact that Joel is such a crappy person makes him one of the most relatable characters i've ever played. He isn't a god like Kratos or some mythic character who does the right thing all the time just because the story demands it. He is human and he gives in to his humanity the same way I think so many of us would, and he suffers the consequences like many of us would too.
One thing I think they did wrong in the show was when Ellie shot a guy, and Joel told her that she was too young. Not that itself, that it very like the game, but they make killing people a sensitive topic for Joel, which isn't really in the game. In the game, he obviously doesn't like killing, but he doesn't really mind at all. Like when Tess shot Robert, neither of them batted an eyelash and just moved on joking about his dead body to Marlene.
I never hated that they killed Joel. I hated the piss poor pacing of the story and trying to make us care about Abby. Joel was a character we could relate too and understanding his point of view was great story telling.
@@benxbec9 No not really, Abby getting a spur of a moment decision to rescue Lev and Yara was poorly written and executed. With Joel it was a broken man warming up to someone who he travaled with for months and warming up to the idea of having a daughter again. If anything Ellie in part 2 and abby are the same character on opposing sides.
@@benxbec9 Abby felt hammered in cause instead of building up to her killing joel, it's instead shot in out of nowhere, with joel and his brother telling their names like they can trust strangers, then having us play a character we don't know, thinking we'll have fun with the murder of a beloved Character, in my opinion they should've pushed Joel's death closer to the end, with us having to learn and play Abby, maybe even have her meet ellie before they meet joel, so when it's finally revield that Abby is gonna kill joel, it feels like we understand her pain a lot better
The line in the first game "we're not murderers we're survivors" is hammered pretty hard and I'd like to believe Joel used this motto to justify the worst parts of himself; and I believe its just the general mentality of people in this universe, they have to think this way to survive; its either us or them.
