Why Kung Fu Forms and Karate Kata are (Mostly) Pretty Useless! 

As a practitioner of traditional okinawa karate , I agree 100%!. Aimless forms are useless. What makes the kata functional is its bunkai,we are always taught to utilise the bunkai while sparring

I was at a "self defense" site a few months ago and there were many people arguing that you don't need sparring, or heavy bags, punching mitts, or any training aids people use nowadays. It left me flabbergasted.

I will say if you do your forms with intent, its definitely a good cardio workout.

I'm thankful for people like Iain Abernethy and Jesse Enkamp who are re-exploring traditional karate forms and teaching how to properly apply them. The form is not the fight, just like the musical scale is not the song. It has things that can help when properly understood, but you have to comprehend what is going on behind each form move and how it is intended to be practiced in a street situation.

I am a traditional kung-fu martial artist, 20 yrs in. I would say the issue with many schools is that too much emphasis is put on forms. With that said I would not call it a waste of time. The problem is that people do not understand the forms or there function and things become too abstract. Forms are not shadow boxing. Forms are built to categorize and help learn specific movements and principles. You need resistance training with a partner, and you need sparring. Most people learn form and can't use any of the movements in fighting. With that said I would not say it was designed for lazy teachers. Many teachers may not know the true purpose of the movements. Maybe you had bad teachers or just bad experiences but don't totally knock forms.

This is basically why I quit karate after 12 years. I liked kata because I had a teacher who was very keen on it having to be functional, and that all the basic kata stuff was useless unless practiced on a resisting opponent. And we also did at least 10-20 minutes of sparring every practice, somewhere between medium to full contact. The basic interpretation of a kata was only for learning it, and then the advanced form, or as my teacher said "the real form", with the more nasty stuff came. He was very keen on making us understand that the kata was just a way to preserve some different combos or locks or throws, or some basic ideas on how to engage in a certain situation, and that you should only really practice the kata to maybe move your body (good warmup?) and to make sure you had the catalogue of more complex moves. But over the years, it changed. More and more weight was put on kata and point scoring fighting. We used to have one whole training session per week, with only sparring for contact fighting. It became more and more ridiculous point scoring with a million illegal techniques and no contact at all. All the kata became about passing graduation tests so you could get the next belt, and to live up to the "standards". I didn't pay much attention to this change, until I travelled abroad for 2 years. In my years away, I joined some gyms and tried other form of martial arts. I sparred a lot with a few MMA guys, some Kyokushin karate people, I tried Aikido and Judo, and I just started realizing how much karate had changed in my dojo over the years. When I got back home, basically all contact was gone. I was brought up with the idea that the attacker should always strike to hit. Not break the other persons teeth or anything while doing drills or kata, but at least with so much contact on the body that the defender would get the air knocked out of them if they didn't make it work. In the first week of training, I knocked 3 people down just by hitting them in the gut. They had completely lost all ability to block a punch that was intended to hit. We used to do a form of fixed stance sparring, with full body contact, which was meant to "fix" the problem that most karate fighters have - they are "out fighters". So this sparring was meant to make sure we would not panic in close quarters, and it was done during every practice for at least a few minutes. When I got back, it was basically gone. In the 6 months I trained, we did it once, and I was told I was being too rough. In all honesty, I was holding back. And then when we did some sparring with point scoring rules (no contact) I kept chasing everyone around the mat, because no one could handle close quarter fighting. And I will run the risk of sounding sexist, but over the years all the men had more or less left the dojo. Most of the people there were skinny women, and no matter how much you stretch your imagination, a woman who is 50-65 kilos won't offer much practice to a dude who is 75-80 kilos and 15-20 centimeter taller than them. At that point I decided to quit doing karate, despite having spent 12 years on it. The style I had practiced had gone from being a very realistic (if you ask me at least) form of martial arts, to being something that was hardly any more than dancing. I still think it has some of the best martial arts basics I have seen in anything I'v etrained, if trained like an actual fighting system, but as my old teacher used to say: "If you take the fighting intention out of karate and kata, it is just dancing, and then you might as well go to the dancing school next door"

Excellent video. Lots of great points brought up here. Iain Abernethy has a 4 step process to learning kata that is reminiscent of what is mentioned here. If you're going to practice kata: 1. Learn the form. 2. Drill the application with a partner varying the degrees of resistance. 3. Identify the underlying principles so you can adapt and vary e.g. getting off line, closest weapon closest target, limits of joints, off-balancing etc. 4. Practice applying the kata in live sparring. If you can't apply the form in sparring than you haven't learnt it. Drilling it live and doing this often is vitally important. Of course, all that is assuming the information contained within the form(s) is actually sound. I have no doubt that many forms are not at all combatively applicable. That being said I always wince when I see throws, leg picks and clinch work seen in pre- WW2 karate being applied as weird double blocks and chi blasts today.

Isn't kata also a way of meditation so you'd learn to relax your muscles and using hip rotation and for kime (creating as much power as possible in the shortest time you can )

Fed up with the TMA strawmanning. It really is mostly people bitter about getting stuck in a bad school (or schools), or maybe just don't realise good schools exist. My experience practising kata has been totally different. For the aspect of our system that used it, I found it reminded me of the principles of techniques, improved breathing habits, was good meditation, and increased the variety of techniques that come out in sparring. Definitely not a waste of time.

I am a mixed martial artist and have done both sides of training, the more western style of boxing and hitting heavy bags and lifting weights, and i have also done kung fu where we did forms, and i still incorporate the forms for maybe 30 minutes to my daily training, mostly for the fancier kicks that help me to stretch out by kicking and doing the splits in the air, those forms help so just my legs dont get stiff and slow, plus it looks beautiful which is the art part of the martial ARTS

Great video! I also trained Hung Gar, before eventually moving to BJJ. We didn’t do forms right away, it was mostly conditioning and drilling conceptual motions, which we’d apply to multiple situations. After a few weeks of that, we started Gune Gee Fook Fu Kuen, which contained the same motions we’d been drilling before. It seemed a good way to learn, much better than the forms collecting you see so much of in traditional kung fu. The group disintegrated when my teacher discovered BJJ, and nine years later is a brown belt, heh.

I agree with you completely I used to do northern shaolin and sanda 25 years ago. many many forms,acrobatics etc...but now.. I am into forms again from a teacher that actually has forms that help me understand more about my body.posture ,structure, etc. so I agree with what you're saying. but the forms I'm learning now every move is connected to internal principles about the body and the more I understand them the more I value these forms. and besides that I just really enjoy doing forms to pass the time. I really regard it as a supplement..but if anyone thinks they learn to be a deadly killing machine by taking in huge amounts of forms..it's just ridiculous.

Kata has value in terms of capturing and passing on information. The problem is that people have made learning the kata as an end in itself. Instead of a starting point, a way of reminding you of important information. You then need to take this information and train it as you suggest. This is whats the old masters used to do. Which is why when you see the rare videos of them training, for example the video of funakoshi (founder of shotokan) doing the heian shodan form he looks pretty rubbish by todays standards. But I would bet he knew how to apply it and practicing it with partners is probably where he spent his time. Spending time making kata look perfect to the point that all meaning is lost which is a modern phononemen. The problem of people prioritising the form over the function is seen in the fact that many karate people come up with frankly rediculous applications for their kata. The explainantions they come up are often divorced from reality and so the value of the kata is lost. Where as if you look at the work of someone like Patrick McCarthy you get a much better idea of what you should actually be doing. The problem isn't that kata doen't have value. The problem is that perhaps only 1% of karate people actually understand how to use it and then take develop their training into dealing with opponents in a realistic way.

I think both are SUPER important 1: to preserve the art and 2: hookup a better communication between mind and body. It's the mental conditioning that goes on when training katas and forms. The learning to pay attention to detail so it's easier to see openings and telegraphed moves. THAT'S why it's important. You can be strong at technique, have the strongest punch or kick, be the fastest, but if you can't pay attention, your gonna get knocked out.

Very good. I learned Kempo 1,2 and 3. I saw these kung-fu forms as 'letters' strung together in a way to ingrain motions into your motor memory and as a way to exercise all of your synovial joints.

So glad I found your channels. You offer so much good info and you're fun to listen to.

I’m a TKD black belt and didn’t really appreciate the value of forms until I began to study Okinawan Goju Ryu and learnt the true meaning behind the forms or kata. Kata by itself isn’t enough but in my opinion neither is sparring. Sparring is basically competition style fighting but irikomi sparring from goju ryu is more effective for street self defence in my opinion. I lost faith in traditional martial arts for many years but eventually came to realise that they do have a lot to offer if they’re trained and taught in the right way

I agree with you to an extent, but to be honest if you learned as many forms as you say, of course they're useless! Even over 30 years, I have a hard time believing that you would benefit much from that many forms. Where would you ever have the time? Look, forms are a slow burn. It could take someone 30 years to get to the bottom of ONE. Therefore, forms are a lifelong and personal practice. Striking, mitt work, bag work, sparring and shadowboxing are your daily bread and butter. Conditioning holds it all together, especially as we age. You CAN have both, and you should. All martial arts thrive on balance! I do respect and understand your opinions, but I don't think it has to be all one way or the other. I hope to see a day where eastern and western approaches can coexist better. Have a great day!

What do you think of a Karate Dojo(with Karate based on Shotokan, boxing, jiu jitsu, and judo) that is 1/4 kata, 1/4 sparring, 1/4 technique, 1/4 self defence applications(although from what I remember the self defence was bullcrap) do you think that is a reasonable ratio of practical-theoretical

I give you credit for saying what a lot of us have unfortunately experienced as students of the martial arts business.

I like Bunkai but I agree it won't work unless you do it against resistance

I took several years off from my training. I trained in traditional karate back in the day and was up to 3rd Dan at a time when there were no kids in the martial arts. My training was at a very high level and tough. When I got back into it, I decided to make my training realistic fighting centered. Honestly, I only had vague memories of the 30 odd forms I had learned. I decided to relearn just two forms, one because I just liked it (Tekki 1), and the other because I wanted to (Bassai Sho). Okay, I still do my original first H pattern form, because that one is so basic that even after not training how could you forget that :-) and I think it's good for balance and hip movement. So anyway, of course I agree with you about forms being unnecessary, especially if you only have so much time to train. I concentrate on conditioning, technique, and application. Just promoted to 4th Dan :-) Thank you!

there are five movements in Hsing-i, eight in Pakua, and ten in Tai Chi. You practice them until you do them in your sleep. if someone clenches their fist, you strike them, if they attack you, you dodge and then strike.

When you did Xing Yi, did you learn Wu Hua Pao, or just 12 animals and five elements?

Katas are a waste of time. Tma is going backwords i left tma to go to mma because i knew my time was being wasted

I've been learning and teaching American Kenpo for fifity years (but only adults, kids can't appreciate martial arts or do what I like to teach). The first thing I did when I hadd my own school was eliminate all the forms and it hasn't hurt me a bit. I'm 5'2", slim and I've had physical attacks many times of the years and with one move or strike, the fight was over. Anther time, a guy grabbed my shoulder and tried to punch me. I did a quick Kenpo move and broke his elbow. Although no forms, I always teach a form of shadow boxing as if actual fighting and using your knowledge. Do you have to spar? Well I did sparing ther first five years and then I decided no more, I hated getting hurt and hurting others. But I use the heavy bag for all kinds off punches, strikes elbwos, kicking, even low small bag for Kung Fu strike to ankle. When I teach a technique, we do it on each other, but with control. We get more eye to eye coordination by using rubber sticks for sparing . But katas are not necessary if you want to learn to fight and protect yourself. Sparring should be done lightly so no one gets hurt. But as long as the art works on the street, and mine does then great. I've added many joint locks and ground techs and other weapons so I call my art AKJ-American Kenpo.. I still teach privately in Puyallup. I love practicing all the self-defense techniques. Take care. Sifu

Hi Stephen, since you're a fire man, have you ever dealt with saving people putting them in stretchers, they wake up and take a swing at you? What would or have you done in this kind of situation? thanks!

When I was in Kenpo Karate forms was important but so was sparring and drills . My instructor would have us spar twice a week , once in the middle of the week and once in the Saturday morning class .

Lyoto Machida is still doing Katas.

👍

I think of kata kind of like I think of BJJ warmups: Break falls, side winders, gorilla walk, somersaults etc help warm you up and help your movement, but they aren't worth practicing for more than a few minutes (like warming up your shoulders before swimming, like the Lee anagoly you used).

Today my teacher talk about this topic in class today; follow by a light to medium sparring session and coaching about mental pressure.I'm lucky to found such a good school

Wonder what the guys at Karate Culture and Iain Abernathy have to say.

This misses the point. Kata is to develop muscle memory, to get your body used to moving as a practitioner of the martial art. Nobody does these techniques naturally. Nobody moves that way naturally. Kata develops that and allows you to be able to apply it in kumite. This has been my experience studying karate for 41 years. I can't speak to Kung Fu. This is a disappointing viewpoint from a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner that I have a great deal of respect for.

I think you and Iain Abernathy would get along well. His video on the training matrix and the 4 stages of kata are mirroring exactly what you are talking about. The best part is how much he quotes past pioneers of the art of karate to support the fact that kata was never intended to be what it has become. Might be a good resource to point to for people who wish to stay connected to Karate for their martial arts training but have a more functional training methodology. Thanks for the video!

Just out of curiosity, who did you train Hung Gar under?

Don't know about other arts but in wing chun there are many benefits of the forms. They are not suppose to be fun. 1. Trains to stay calm 2. Focus 3. Correct position 4. It is an alphabet as you don't always use every position in sparring. 5. To move correctly in wing chun to move and lead with your elbows not your hands. 6. Stance. More and more. Yes you have to spar but sparring can cause bad habits specially in positioning since sparing is too fast to ever get to the correct position exactly. Using the example you used about the boxer practicing the same thing over and not being a boxer. Well if that boxer did a simple jab slowly paying attention to release, feet position, hip, etc and see how everything moves together. He will understand it better, his body will understand better, thus his execution will be better. It's like a drill but on one's self. Taking another quote from Bruce Lee, "I fear not the man who's practiced 1000 kicks, but the one who has practiced a kick 1000 times" that is what forms in wing chun do. That's why forms in wing chun are slow, relaxed, and effortless to make sure you do the exact thing everytime. So forms I believe are an everyday importance, but as you say only once of twice on each form. Musicians practice scales on a daily basis, to them these are their forms. Aviously without actually playing music they wouldn't be musicians but they would never disregard their scales. Dancers have types of forms too and they do them because they won't do every step in every dance but need to know they have it ready when need it.

There's a reason Hideyuki Ashihara (Founder of Ashihara Kaikan, a full-contact Karate) changed the forms, Takashi Azuma (Founder of Daido Juku Kudo, a full-contact that resembles MMA with space helmets and headbutts thrown in) abandoned them for the same reason.

I get the most out of Kata by the balance and strength development. Body development. Same idea as pushups or weight training. Basics feed into good Kata. Good Kata feed into better sparring. We spend lots of time on basics, kata, and sparring. I get value out of Kata.

What lineage of wing chun did you learn?

While I agree that forms have little use for street fighting, I'm a bit disappointed in this video. First, if you trained traditional martial arts at places that only sparred once or twice a year, then I'm sorry but you trained at bad places and this seems to have informed your opinion of traditional arts. I've trained at many places and they all had free sparring (not just step 1, step 2, etc.) almost every day, so please don't assume your experience is the norm. Second, while I agree that sparring is more important, and that forms have little or no street use, forms do have value in providing a structure for focus, discipline, balance and muscle memory for kids/family classes, and even give some novice adults help in those areas (especially in the first 6 months or so). So, does it make sense for seasoned practitioners to spend much time on forms ? No, but forms have some use. Look, I love BJJ too, but I'm continually perplexed about why my fellow BJJ practitioners feel so much need to take shots at traditional martial arts.

I have 35 Years of Traditional Kung Fu. My Sifu is 5th Generation Master in Canton. I continue to practise every day and I have to say that everything you say in this video is 100% correct. A few generations ago- it was all about conditioning, fighting, and a few sets at the advanced level as a mnemonic of tactics and body mechanics (at that time there were no videos, and many of the practitioners couldn't read or write, so sets and 'poems' were a useful memory aid) Somewhere when martial arts began to be sold as 'cultural treasures' or 'health practises' it all went horribly wrong...Keep spreading the good information!

I'm glad i found the lineage of WC (Gulao) i study had only separate drills to be practiced solo or with partners. Then applied in sticky hands and sparring. When i see forms i can see that its useful for memorization of the library you have but i feel breaking things down allow more in depth thought and applications

I know a friend who receives pirvate lessons of wing chun. Apart from the forms, the sifu spar and drill with him. Serval months the main three forms were taught. And my friend developed reflexes to defend and press forward...thr vital part of fighting.

Forms are good as a form of meditation, not for a real fight witch is unpredictable . Styles don't say anything in a fight, people do. Thanks for uploading the video.

EXCELLENT learning to swim on dry land

I'm practicing martial arts for over 30 years in 4 different dojos in Germany. No one ever told me that I would learn how to fight by practicing kata. But I like doing katas, that's enough reason for me to do it. I hate fighting, that's enough reason for me not to fight. So what do you think I should practice if I don't want to waste my time?

those moves at the start are the best I've seen..... i can't believe you discourage forms and kata. it would be nice if you made a video devoted to forms, and their applications... your forms might not be functional but they are nice to watch... you are a master!

you havent been doing martial arts for 35 years, you look like you've trained for about a year

So do you think that samurai spent so much time rolling like in so called bjj? Definitely not because in that type of combat too much rolling training was mostly useless. Don't get me wrong newaza has its place but when you throw weapons into the equation as well as multiple warriors on the battlefield, rolling is mostly useless. I agree though on the importance of resistance training. FYI Judo has many Kata.

I do Wing Chun and at training it's pretty obvious which students do forms regularly and who don't. The ones who do forms regularly need less time to adapt to new drills, or even old drills from some time ago. Those who don't do forms at all, have difficulty even punching properly. Forms are a form of cataloguing all techniques in a system. It hones muscle memory and structure, but it's not a fighting application. If we divide training into yin and yang, then forms are the yin, while combative training is the yang. In some schools forms aren't taught at all, yet they still produce good students. However I know from experience that forms can help you SO MUCH, that if I ever become a teacher, I'll always be teaching forms.

What form is that? I recognize it from the Hung gar system my school called it Hu Fu Kuen.

To be quite honest I agree 100%. I wont pretend that I am a martial arts expert or that I know everything. I have very little experience in Karate (about 4 years) and I just began Judo. But one of the things I lobe about my classmates its that they like to spar alot and pressure test things to make a plan A, B, C to even Z to know what to do when a move fails. I never agreed in forms again and again, because you become more of a prop rather than a fighter or even a better person. I do respect Katas or forms in martial arts such as Karate, kung fu, taekwondo, muay thai, etc. But Katas should be work outs, not fighting moves.

I've been doing M/A for about the same time as Stephan and how I HATED forms ! Just spend the time you would have wasted on kata, drilling , sparring and hitting the heavy bag and you'll get ten times the benefit.

This is a very important video. Speaking as a Karateka and Karate Trainer, I know that too much emphasis is placed upon Kata and unfortunately not it's application. One exception to this is Vince Morris who founded the Kissaki-Kai Karate group. Kata applications take on a whole new meaning in a Kissaki-Kai seminar :-)

would you equate shadow boxing to katas?

Hell, man, didn't your parents teach you that if you keep falling into the same trap over and over again in different places, it might be time to start asking if the problem is in you, not those places? I mean it's one thing to accidentally end up in one or two bad schools. But if you've really studied all these legit styles you list and still have such fantasies about what taolus are for - you're either very bad at choosing your schools or just have some mental block and don't really listen. Cause what you discribe about the way you were taught forms - that stuff has zero connection to reality. That has very little to do with how and why we actually practice taolus in real traditional schools. P.S.: the applications you show in the beggining, btw, look pretty decent to me. But I guess you're mostly just projecting your current knowledge and skill onto the old memories)

Why do you keep belaboring this point but never ever talk to anyone who competes with their kung fu? If competition is the measure of success for you and kung fu forms keep being rant worthy, why have you never hoped over William CC Chen's Tai Chi school and met with any of his world class sanda and push hands students? It's literally 3 blocks from Marcelo Garcia's NYC school, and you seem to have no trouble visiting that.

You might be the only other martial artist that ever equated kata to shadow boxing. It’s hard being a Karate guy and a BJJ Guy. Love your channel

You're absolutely right my friend thumbs up have trained in several Arts myself. I fought in tournaments and so on. I fought in the ring. And I progress the most when I came across a great master who told us different techniques and we use them everyday in light sparring and on Fridays we did Heavy sparring. But never to the point where we injured each other. I've been a participant in the arts for over 40 years and I still train twice and sometimes three times a week. So thumbs up brother

Agree 100%. Same as 1 2 3, self defense moves... Again, figthing is chaotic. You won't learn to fight just following set patterns...

I HATE forms and kata, ESPECIALLY if they're required to get to the next belt. A higher belt should be a better fighter- not because he knows more forms. I especially hate forms and katas created by the club

Stephan, can you teach me those dance moves at the beginning? Those would kill in the club.

the problem is that they teach them the wrong way and you can't just do forms as someone once said (i don't remember who) "Martial arts are about controlling yourself and controlling your opponent" forms are only the first part about that and also you can't just try to do one move. Let's say for example you want to use a push kick and you are trying to do that all the time. It doesn't work like that you can do that when you have an opening for the kick the same thing with forms people teach their students that they should use kata in self defense. if you have a chance then do the move but don't try to do it all the time sorry for bad English

Combat is learning to fight someone else. Kata is learning to fight yourself. In practicing Kata, you learn stamina, balance, speed, body control, precision, always be in a rooted stance, agility, focus, how to control your strength, memory, reflexes (etc.). I agree, that it is only the first step, but it is an important step. If you skip it, and start to fight other people as a beginner, your body will not be ready. Regarding your Bruce Lee quote: ever tried to throw a kid in the pool so it will learn to swim by itself?

You're wrong about the origins and meaning of kata. But you're right on everything else. The thing is, when even 9th dan karate-masters don't know what they're doing and just collect loads of (empty) kata to proove their expertise and to keep the students busy, it's nothing a beginner could ever know or even imagine. To question them was equal to blasphemy and still is to this day. I'm not ashamed for believing a Sensei would know what he's teaching. I think, they should be ashamed to call their dance-lessons 'martial art'. Aaand... I subscribed! Keep up the good work, man!

Good video. You can get a sweat up doing kata's, but if you want to learn how to fight put on some 16oz gloves, slam in a mouth guard and do ome sparring, or jump on the mats and do some grappling.

It's the opposite for my case. I started with a combative and sparring approach, but now I am moving to forms. I like training with forms as it's therapeutic and a good way to discipline my mind. Although it's not as combative it's a definitely good for my mind, body and spirit. I really want to incorporate forms into my morning ritual :)

Let the triggering begin.

All forms are useless, they are dance, not martial art. Real fighting is all about lightning reaction, is about adapt, is about knowning what to do what you apponent do this or do that. Training froms are not helping at all. Kung Fu is definitlly not useless, but people are ruining them with unscientific training. Some forms are used to create muscle memory, but these kinds of training is not adaptive at all. That's why some unexperienced Kung Fu guy losts their form and forgets what they have been taught at once when they are facing real fight and make Kung Fu seems useless.

I don't know much about those arts, but in Tae Kwon Do, they test discipline, mental and physical, and these are part of that. We learn terminology for mental, and forms for physical. And after long enough, you get a sense about how you can incorporate those in a real fight. We also do sparring, step sparring, and Hapkido. Those might help too.

Best martial tutorial EVER. this is something that I feel and already know in the back of my head but but never had the wise to set it in front of my own eyes. Speaking of sparring and practicing with a partner giving opostion energy I think for example Jui jutsu is a good example of an effective practicing, always trying to cotntol the other, always on practice of the technique. What other martial arts with effective partner practice I can find?

BTW, once I was advanced enough, meaning after I could effectively punch and kick, and know the first form, I sparred with my Sifu at every lesson. I forgot to mention that my Shaolin kungfu teacher was a friend of the family and he trained me mostly one on one, and at no cost. I guess that makes a big difference too.

I feel there is a single effective use for forms: as mnemonic devices for remembering techniques. And I believe that's where they probably originated from. They can also be used to quickly teach new techniques (teach in the sense that they now know that such techniques exist and approximately know how they are done) to a large amount of students, but they aren't often used for that. Most TMA schools don't really care about teaching their students how to fight, they just want them to stay there and pay the membership fee.

I agree 100% . I feel happy that a person with such amount of experience like you raise this issue. Talking about karate, how many age uke, soto uke or uchi uke have we seen lately on a WKF tournament? - the techniques that traditional school teaches us are useless in a real confrontation (kumite or street fight) I compare that kind of practice with the one used in judo. From the very begining you are supposed to fall, throw or be thrown, practice randori and learning by doing the techniques that later on you would apply in a tournament or (for God´s sake, no!) in a street fight.

I like your mentions of Bruce Lee and Wing Chun! I would like to hear your comments on Jeet Kune Do. I've been practicing JKD for almost two years now. I like its directness, fluidity, and Wing Chun hands in combination with boxing footwork. Our classes include frequent partner drills.

Here's an explanation of shadowboxing. Maybe Karate and Kung fu people could practice in a similar way instead of traditional katas? Shadowboxing explained: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-17s54i5lDto.html

They are useful. You just have to know how to modify them for a real situation. People, saying that forms are useless, don’t understand that they’re textbook models to execute a movement. In real life situations, you modify those moves to fit the situation.

I thought the Jow gA system I did had some serious forms, but it did feel a little silly (but better than the karate i've seen). I gave it up for more combat sports, and I'll admit the forms are like dancing. It implements a muscle memory and then you can naturally apply whatever you revert to naturally in a defense or fight situation, and it can help with movements. This is my experience and I think Jow Ga has some of the best forms. It also feels like tai chi at times!

Let me first say I totally agree just learning a form does not prepare you for combat sufficiently. However, I ALSO DISAGREE with being taught one form a year or some such frequency. (I learn on average one form a month in my current style) That being said, Forms are NOT useless. 1. They were taught traditionally so as to pass down techniques to generation after generation of student, as a way to retain that knowledge. 2. They are wonderful physical exercise, keep the body limber, teach you balance and discipline, as well as train your memory. 3. The forms I'VE learned have application embedded in each move. IF the Sifu or Sensei or whatever, does not teach them to you, THAT is lazy teaching. I'm not saying every technique in the form is practical. For instance, if I choose not to train in the extreme for Iron Bone and other techniques where there are finger strikes an what-not, some are impractical for self defense. But, that does not negate their usefulness for passing down the technique to SOMEONE who may be able to utilize it. Other forms are weapons training, some of which can be migrated practically in self defense. But, most are just fun and build strength in your sinews and muscles, flexibility and power (like swinging a heavy Guandao up, down, around, thrusting and parrying). So, if you want to be a practical fighter, sure, ignore Traditional Kung Fu and Karate. Go do MMA or boxing or something. But, if you really like Traditional Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc, etc Martial Arts, it is a fun way to stay in shape and can DEFINITELY give you great self-defense skills over the average assailant, if you train to apply it.

Thanks for this explanation. It covers all the aspects involved. PS: TMA training without any sparring really sucks!

Good job man, thank you very much for opening my mind 🙏

What about the healing factors of the the meridians and the Xi?

Free form sparring in protective gear with live opponents and testing techniques out on actual resistive targets like punching bags etc. is the only way to know if your strikes and blocks have any power or are effective in fighting and self defence...

I like that wing chun only has three forms in the entire system, and each is pretty short. I started off in Tang Soo Do, and I see value in forms. They promote good and proper technique. For that reason, I am all for them - until they become way too many! So I have my limit. They also help the solo martial artist to stay in shape.

For me, the forms are a fun part of the tradition. Like, to do the same movements as historical figures within the tradition. I've never thought of them as very applicable. They're just a catalogue of techniques, though there are some good combinations. Look at Kyokushin. We would learn forms, but the sparring had almost nothing to do with it.

Do drills fall into forms?

my response to that is ,if your already experienced. in martial arts you can train by your self because you know what real fighting is especilly if you have actually been in a fight.You will visualize realisticly and hit the heavy bags,which is good for building power

Historically speaking, the preset kata of karate that he is ranting against is a modern invention that came about with Itosu to teach okinawan school children. Then taken over by Japanese karate as the only way to kata. The pre-itosu kata were free form with naihanchi(fighting on a rice patty) or bassai(fighting a skilled defensive opponent) for example, being ideas for the free form kata. Free form sparring was also a 20th century invention the Japanese added to karate. It was considered too dangerous to spar. When a fight or challenge did occur there were no rules and could be to the death.

Within my karate school, the katas are learned with bunkai and we have a understanding of the moves and have the application of the moves from realistic situations. Have honestly used the bunkai in a real situtation

I studied Hung Gar as a kid. We did slow motion sparring, and it made a world of difference. I've done a lot of other arts too, and the only good schools are the ones that did some manner of sparring.

I came to understand this quite well... I spoiled decades of my life practicing shoto kan karate with forms that don't really work. Thanks!!!

In a sparring situation you figure out when and what is applicable and what is more likely to work for what attack. The thing is, you have to acquire the skill of the techniques first and that's not going to spontaneously happen from sparring. It doesn't necessarily mean that people are against sparring or don't believe sparring is necessary.

I think we often misunderstand kata and forms as the thing to practice when what they really are is a mnemonic to remember and transmit to others what we are supposed to practice, work on, develop.

Great job, thanks sir !

Hi there. Love your work. I just wanted to put a counter point out there. I agree that forms are useless as a way of *learning* to fight. But if you actually know how to fight and have reached that stage in your life where you have renounced the use of violence as a tool, they are wonderful. You can use Okinawan forms as a moving meditation, just as taichi is used. You can keep a connection to the movement of martial arts as a spiritual practise when you no long feel any desire to even keep any part of being a fighter as part of your being. It is the ability to divorce the movement from violence that makes them valuable, long after your fist has hit the heavy bag for the last time.

I train at a Jeet Kune Do school, and most of the systems we practice have no forms. The notable exception is our Wing Chun curriculum, in which there are 3 empty hand forms, a wooden dummy form, and two weapon forms (butterfly swords and pole). My instructor treated the forms as textbooks, glossaries of techniques and structures to develop as muscle memory. If the forms offered vocabulary words (if you’ll humor the extended textbook analogy), live practice (ie application, isolated sparring, and sparring) taught us to form sentences with those words. The forms should just be a reference point, only one small part of the curriculum. That said, I can agree that too many schools place too much emphasis on forms. But I wouldn’t say they’re totally useless in tandem with other forms of training.

He describes my experience in traditional martial arts pretty closely. The classes I was in didn't teach you to fight, they taught the moves of that particular martial art. They generally didn't even understand the applications of the forms. Partner drills were rare, sparring even rarer. It's not that the MAs were technically flawed or anything, they just weren't taught or trained in such a way as to develop practical skill.

I’m a lifelong martial artist I’m 62 years old started when I was 11 years old and studied Goju, tai chi, jkd concepts, Filipino martial arts and street boxing also known as the 52 My karate teacher emphasized kata and kumite equally. He taught us that anyone can fight forms enable you to pass on the art and to demonstrated to others. Forms become especially useful when you are older and have health issues like I do now. Because of forms inTai chi practice I went from barely able to walk to being able to walk the length of two football fields in a very short period of time when I reintroduced myself to thwart Any martial arts form can be extrapolated to single techniques that you can use get a combat drill much in the same way like a boxers jab cross jab cross hook jab cross hook upper cut all single movements but using sequence makes up a usable method of shadowboxing that translate easily into combat.

Very insightful video as always with valid points. However I have one honest critique I need to address. I think you might’ve have trained at a McDojo for Chinese martial arts because I have never seen an authentic form straight from the original source or lineage that took over 1 and a half min to complete let alone 30 min. You can RU-vid any form and you’ll see, as long as it’s not some unauthentic jake mace shaolin do shit. Taijiquan is the exception but tai chi was originally done at full speed so their forms also only took a min. Another red flag I spotted was how some of the applications didn’t exactly match their respective individual techniques in the form but to your former Kung fu instructor’s credit, some were right. How I know despite never seeing that form before or anything close to it is because the applications that were right did resemble some techniques from the form exactly. Since you’re in my opinion one of the most knowledgeable grapplers on RU-vid, I’m sure you’re aware that the karate and taekwondo blocks in forms aren’t actually blocks but jointlocks. Middle block is supposed to be a standing arm bar since one hand grabs a wrist (not chambering by the hips for another punch) while the other smashes into an elbow (not blocking a strike). But McDojos teach it as a block which would never work against a trained boxer because it’s highly unlikely that a wide motion like that is fast enough to block a trained boxer’s punch. Plus, why would you use such a wide, vulnerable motion to block when just guarding your face would suffice and why would you chamber your fist back leaving your entire head and body wide open for strikes right?