Why land still matters in South Africa: how SA became so segregated 

Chef, Dr Mpofu Walsh is cooking lately.

Dr Sizwe I have seriously been ignorant on this issue, thank you for the education. I have only heard polarizing takes on this issue. I wish everyone can clearly communicate this issue the way you have. You are starting to really win me over here.... :(

Land reform is a must no ifs or buts. Without it there shall be no peace 🇯🇲🇯🇲🇯🇲🇯🇲🇯🇲🇯🇲🇯🇲🇯🇲

Each episode of yours has its own emotions but this one got me really emotional because land is justice in its entirety.

This was EXCELLENT. I've understood the backstory behind land reform for the first time ... really. Sizwe, you're doing great.

No new government that comes to power will last, as injustices of the past need to be reconciled in order for SA to truly move forward.

ANC is Captured,they'll never implement the land distribution policy. We need to take matters into our own hands and close down the country for them to act on this matter.

Honestly speaking the ANC had 65% in parliament after 1994 elections..and an opportunity when the EFF gave them their vote to do this..the comrades were too excited to have their hands in the govt purse..and shares in BEE deals they neglected the work that needed to be done..there should have been an audit of all land ..private and govt and then establish how it came to be in the hands it was or is in..then work done to correct the injustices.. The ANC was bought ..given shares and BEE deals and blinded by the trappings of money..they did get farms for themselves (phala phala..DD Mabuza farm in MP..Terror Lekota's Farm)..and many others not mentioned and unknown.. they were not incentived to do the right thing..but just lined their pockets we all know this..

I'm glad the land issue is "back" on the table. Many more of these please. After all, Juge John Hlophe said we must talk about land at least 3 times a day.

Dr! You and the team are doing the most on these episodes , intelligent, unbiased and informative. This has become one of my favourite podcasts.

Land as always being the source of power , without land, you have no power or humanity. Without land, your culture and your dignity is inquestion.

💔😓Our history makes me weep🥺😭🇿🇦

Thanks for the insights, Sizwe. I have gained a lot of knowledge through this episode. I have read "The Land is Ours" by Advocate Tembeka Ngcukaitobi and still need to get "Land Matters." I think it would be great to have Advocate Ngcukaitobi as your guest one day to dive deeper into these insights.

00:02 Land reform in South Africa is a long-standing and contentious issue. 02:43 Land Reform in South Africa revolves around three pillars: restitution, redistribution, and tenure reform. 08:06 Redistribution aims to share land more equally among black South Africans. 10:55 Tenure reform and the difference between restitution and redistribution in South Africa 16:07 Most of South Africa is commercially owned land 18:27 ANC's failure to redistribute land in South Africa due to lack of political will and financial constraints 22:49 Property rights, expropriation, and compensation in South Africa 24:57 Compensation must reflect balance between public interest and affected parties 29:16 Restitution process has not brought back land into the hands of people. 31:26 Challenges in land reform process in South Africa 35:54 Scholars like Ruth Hall provide insights on land reform

Assalaamu alaykum brother. Shukran for the channel. I've learned so much, and my interest in politics has increased over the last month due to SMWX. May Allah reward and increase you and the team 🙏

Why is it a problem when 70-odd percent of land is owned by government. Why dont they do what is needed?

In the course of my work, I have travelled extensively in the Eastern & Northern Cape. Farms that were re- distributed have been left fallow. The new owners had insufficient funds to buy farm equipment, seed, etc, & no expertise in large scale farming. Farmers provide the country’s food. Farms left to die put our food source at risk. How is this overcome?

Land repossession is the term that should be used

It was stolen with no compensation. Rewrite the laws and take back without compensation

Dr you are on fire my brother.If somebody steals your car you must pay him/her to buy gas so that he/she can bring car back to you.ANC ngamasimba wabantu serious.

The problem with land reform and tenure is in the finer detail: Here are some examples: - It is against the interest of the Department of Agriculture to subdivide agricultural land into smaller portions. This means the creation of smaller portions is discouraged and, in their opinion, will have a negative impact on food production and security. The consensus is also that one farmer with more land and resources can farm more effectively than more smaller farmers with the same area of land devided between "smaller" farmers. - If you want to create tenure in rural areas (i.e. agricultural land not near towns) you have to create serviced erven. The servicing of this erven must then be (1) funded and (2) maintained by government. You will often find a dispute between the spheres of government because such municipalities where the reform takes place does not have the financial capacity to formalize, service and maintain erven, and the other spheres do not want to be burdened financially with the maintenance. This will remain an issue even if land could be expropriated without compensation. In short, the problem with land reform is not as one-dimensional as it is made out to be. The challenges relate more to facilitation, not policy. Land use and development lies at an intersection of a variety of interests which are many times at odds with each other and we have not made any headway in this regard.

The "Why" question can be answered by what happened in Zimbabwe. The devastating effect the sanctions had on this country still haunt the political elite in South Africa .

In Zambia the land issue was dealt with decisively by the founding father Kenneth Kaunda and the UNIP govt. Apart from traditional land , all the land belongs to the state and is vested in the President. Land is leased to the holder for 99 years. Zambia avoided the nonsense in Zimbabwe. Seems South Africa wants to take the Zimbabwe route.Many white Zimbabwean commercial farmers moved to Zambia and have set up farms in the fertile Mkushi farming block.

Hey Fam. Land does need to be restituted and redistributed, for economic access reasons: Land can open up so many opportunities for entrepreneurs and small/medium business owners and for people to fend for themselves, especially the Youth instead of them just chilling at corners. Secondly, land was taken away from people guys, from the Khoi/Khoe-San-Nama, the Bantu/Nguni, and Coloureds, denying this just makes society building in RSA even harder, and really impossible. This will lead to us never being able to be a functional, happy, cohesive, united, and equal nation; therefore our social ailments will never leave us. Don't think short term, about your house, your job, your small business - think about the whole nation

Mandela and his friends,Tambo,Sisulu etc were not man of honour.ANC has never changed.

To us who like before listening to the content 😊 because we know DR Mpofu is going to deliver. My go to place for South African political analysis. Thank you Sizwe, usi Nganga

The government PLAS has failed. Black emerging farmers were leased state land at very high rates, with little financial and extension service support. Without long term lease or tittle deeds ,farmers could not access funding, and lots of farmers are now in debt to the state and are threatened with evections. Most have spent more than 10 years on the land, most of them have no chance of being employed because of age, others are over 60 years of age. The state must look into this group of farmers amongst the important land issues.

Your faithfulness to truth and transparency is in a class of it's own, even when the topic is difficult. I wish more people were this honest. As Maya Angelou says, “History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again.” You show this courage with a refreshing yet unimpeachable grace

If most of the land belongs to Government, Commercial, and Agriculture, its obvious why the ANC doesnt act decisively. They have majority stakes in the first two, and you simply cant mess with agriculture when the very fabric of societal South Africa depends on it to eat and work.

Great one. I think when people think of land redistribution/restitution they think of what happened in Zim ( the violence part). Maybe political parties invested in this need to detail step-by-step how it will happen, in order to dispel concerns and fears.

I thought about this a lot. I think restitution can be solved the following way; (Ignoring all the land in governments/trust's hands) 1) Incentevise farmers to give a portion of their land in exchange for tax breaks. Land will be reserved for farm workers, agricultural students, and those who can't prove that they were disposessed and want to work the land. This will prevent the politcally connected to highjack it like with BEE. 2) Land can't be sold for 20 years (this will prevent people from claiming land and just selling it back for a quick buck, preventing generational wealth/ownership). 3) Government to subsidize startup farms in exchange for cheaper prices to sell goods locally (this will bring down food costs for all). 4) Hire existing farmers to train new land owners and pay them mostly in commission, this will prevent box ticking exercises and make sure farmers do everything for new land owners to succeed. 5) Open up cannabis legislation and reserve licenses for small and medium farmers to prevent corporate monopoly. 6) Title deeds NB NB NB! This is how I think you can do it without creating food insecurity or social instability.

First to comment! 🙌🏾 Thanks Sizwe for the robust and informative content.

Sizwe, please can we have a conversation on what having the Land, the day after means... These farms were largely subsidised by the Apartheid state, these private patches of land and owners are in massive debt... Can we begin to have real dreams informed by what these farms are and can be beyond dispossession. How does reclamation look like and its pitfalls, so we succeed.

Thanks for this. Looking forward to watching. I think Tembeka Ngcukaitobi also did a video a few years breaking down the concepts and explaining the causes for the lack of progress.

Happy to say I have been following this page for 4 years

I want restitution, redistribution and tenure reform land right there in Rondebosch

It would be good to look at th statistics Sizwe. I'd also be interested to know how much private land is unused and how much land is belonging to tribal trusts. This is certainly a political hot patato, but much of unused tribal land is in some of the most fertile high rainful and moderate temperate regions.

Dr Sizwe and the rest of the SMWX fam, many who oppose land expropriation often cite the importance of land to be productive in order to ensure food security. Zimbabwe is often used as an example of how land expropriation can derail a country's economy. How do we as South Africa ensure that that does not happen?

Land and housing reform is a game changing lever for inclusive economic growth.

Paying taxes on land is like renting land from the government. Will everyone then pay taxes?

I'd like to paint a quick scenario for everyone here, so that we can look at this from a different angle: Choose a country other than South Africa. Literally any other country in the world, on any continent, whether it be Europe, Asia, America or the Middle East. Now picture a citizen of such a country walking into his local government office, and having the following conversation with the government official on duty: Citizen: "I'd like to apply for some free land, please." Official: "Excuse me?" Citizen: "Free land. I want to apply for it." Official: "I'm sorry sir, but we don't give out free land. If you would like to purchase some land, then you must pay for it like everybody else." Citizen: "This is oppression! I am being oppressed by the state! My ancestors lived here hundreds of years ago, and I demand to be reimbursed for the suffering that they went through!" Official: "Security, please!" The End

This is why hard work alone isn't enough when the inequality is systemic.

It is true that 70% of our land is agricultural land, but agriculture literally accounts for 2.5% of our GDP. Which is why 68% of South Africa live in urban areas, because we all know there is no real economic prospects in rural areas. I really think if what we want is economic prosperity for black people what is going to be key is lowering unemployment and giving black people in urban areas access to opportunities, opportunities. Focusing on something that only contributes 2.5% to our GDP and concluding that it is key to poverty in this country is strange.

This is an important conversation to have I saw the caption to today's episode and it really compelled me to want to watch. I didn't choose to live and grow up in the Township. Townships were created during the Apartheid era, forcibly segregating Black South Africans into these areas, areas with poor living conditions, and limited access to basic services such as healthcare, education, and water. We should never stop emphasising the importance of Land, we are where we are today as a Nation because of Land being forcefully taken from us, Our grandfathers went from owning land to working in gardens and farms for the White men, cruel dispossession and stealing yho!

@sizwe The first Minister of Agriculture in the Mandela cabinet in 1994 was Derek Hanekom who was and is an ANC minister.

I think it’s important to reflect that a lot of commercial farms are owned by large companies. Massive shift from family owned farms since 1980s.

Well taught Dr Sizwe. Good work. Thank you. Land gives African identity and land reform can drive development culturally and economically.. Our society will be better after good Godly reform.

Sizwe great analysis, SMWX is getting stronger and better. Keep up the great work.

Thank you for taking the time to explain these issues in detail!

ANC has been an absolute failure for the people of SA!!!

As a critic, I believe in you, you are brilliant Dr. Mpofu. Calm, collected and clear on delivering every subject matter.

We do have 2 farms in Roadtan in limpopo and the proof is there is a Graves there and white owners even denied our access to the graves

Thanks, Doc. I am looking forward to tomorrow's episode as usual to stay up to date with current affairs and detailed analysis and synthesis.

This has really been informative. Thank you SMWX.. 🔥🔥 Ayeye!!

I hear you, but I want to ask either you or the comment section a serious question. I want to preface my question by saying I have no skin in this game. I can’t afford land. I don’t own a house or anything. So my question is: What happens if I go to the bank and get a loan to buy a farm/property today. I did not own it before today. Tomorrow, the government says it should be given to a dispossessed individual. What is the process here? Since I only owned it for one day. Can it be said that I stole it? What happens to my loan? Should I still pay it even though I no longer own the land. Ok, so there are actually several questions! 😂 I’m really asking because I’m curious. Please don’t read this as an attack.

You never dissapoint, bukumele igama lakho ngu Fuzile ngoba ulandele ekhondweni laka Adv. Mpofu. Like Father, like Son, thank you Dr 👏🏿

Spread the Fire 🔥 Thanks sharing! Great content as always!

impressed by the quality of these discussions, considering the amount of relevant content being put out. the last conversation with uGogo wow 👏🏾 i think the timing of this episode is perfect because so many things get muddied up and sensationalized on social media and false narratives are pushed to us

Im from a Town Planning profession and this was literally my class lecture, excellently presented. Thanks Hlubi for explaining this important matter to the masses. Then people can link all this information to politics, one can clearly see and understand the Values of the political parties in SA, eg, The MK wants to amend the constitution to address such matters, because it understand that the majority are land less from history, another eg, is the DA, their value is in capitalism and privatization, they avoid the issue of land at all costs because they know that white minority owns most land, economic activity on the land and they want to protect the interest of minority. Land is not the agenda of the DA

The land issue is gone, the current ANC and it's clever blacks want nothing to do with that issue, real black people who care about this country must decide to toe the line or fight for land

Who did the cup's owner steal it from?

Thanks!

Dr SMW and team, thank you so much, the work you do is important and so appreciated. Just wanted to express my deep and heartfelt gratitude for the dedicated work you do day after day. It is Eye opening, educational, informative, intellectually stimulating and/or thought provoking . Love how you impart information and dissect the issues. Your platform is exceptional. Keep up the great work…

Bakcanize SA so that this land question can be solved. There are not only black and white people in SA there are also Indian and coloured people in South Africa. Then there are land that was legally bought and paid for during the 1800s what will happen to that land? Between 1652 and 1910 huge parts of SA were simply unpopulated there were nobody there and it never belong to anybody. Also remember in 1652 there were not a country called South Africa. So those who start developing it should also have a say on who owns the land and who not. I sometimes wonder is this about getting hold of well developed farms that are benefitting many South Africans in terms of jobs and foreign currency, or is it about getting land for some or other political reason.

Thanks for a dispassionate and educational presentation of this thorny problem. I have learnt a lot.

Dr Sizwe thank you for the clarity.What a masterpiece lecture.Quite eye opening

There was willful disregard for this process. We were robbed again by the ANC.

Hi Dr Mpofu-Walsh my family owns land in Oskraal and they have the documents to prove it,however the process has been frustrated by the government because it has minerals. There was even someone assassinated a couple of years ago for pursuing the restitution. It’s unfortunate to see our parents unable to enjoy the fruits of their grandfather’s land and we don’t know who to seek guidance from anymore

One thing about Sizwe, I disagree with MANY of his views, but I always enjoy hearing them.

SIZWE YOU ACURATE WITH YOUR ADVISE ,LAND MUST BE SHARED ❤

Thank you very much for this valuable information i really do appreciate it,i did learn alot thanks again.

😢Thank you, Dr. Mpofu this is very informative and important. Can you invite government on land reform department. And lastly, DR JJ needs to come back asap for an interview post election. Sibonge

This has been quite an informative view Dr. Thank you. On this complex topic I think the main dominant schools of thought are Restorative school and Reformative school. The restorative school is often quite emotive and divisive, and therefore loved by politicians. The idea of being able to reset seems to have so much appeal to human beings. But even proponents of this school change their minds when you say it sounds like all land should belong to the Khoi and the San if we truly believe in restoration. Even if current land was distributed equitably (still not sure what that means: is it like 1 hactare each?), a generation from now the distribution may still prove to be suboptimal as land use changes. I am fan of Reformative school of thought, which is based on the believe that land is a limited resource we share with current and future generations, and that it's use may change over time. This school requires that there is a minimum 40 year land use plan, revised every 20 years. Based on this plan we can designate different land parcels for residential use, commercial use, conservation etc. It is this plan that should inform how we ensure that distribution is fair. Where land needs to be expropriated, it should be at cost i.e. the value of land should be on use and not on mere ownership of land over time.

SUMMARY The three concepts of land reform Restitution Get something back that belongs to you. Dispossession of land through war and law. You can get that land back to 1913. Analogy cup. Redistribution Not everyone can prove but in general indiginous lost land. Therefore let’s share land more equally. Analogy: divide up the garden Tenure reform Already working farms regardless of piece of paper. Eg state. Rights to land already on. Conclusion Some combination Current failures since 1994 72% not owned by black SA 2/3 of land mass is grams and stuff

A well articulated analysis of the land question. Part of this question is also understanding the Agrarian question, both these questions must not be understood unilaterally.

I have numerous examples of land that was provided to the disadvantaged. The farmer sold the land to the government for R100k. They give the land to the disadvantaged individual. Not even 3 months later, the receiver of the new land sells it back to the original farmer for R50k. Most people receiving land have no idea how to farm. Farmers feed the nation. Truth be told, people don’t want land, they want the money.

After thirty plus years of the end of apartheid. After thirty plus years of the government being held by the ANC, it’s absolutely unacceptable that so many of the indigenous population lives in such harsh and desperate situations. The question becomes, why is this still the situation. From there we’re left with the need to draw our own conclusions. One conclusion: apartheid ended and the few (to include the black indigenous African) in control ensured that they and their people benefited, instead of making sure there was a sincere move forward that benefited the masses of the indigenous population. Second conclusion: apartheid ended and the few didn’t make the most important issue of land redistribution a priority. Third conclusion: Maybe the few in control were afraid to do what had to be done and instead went with the same ole way to keep the peace. Fourth conclusion: Those who were the leaders in government (the indigenous Black African), didn’t know how to navigate legal paths to ensure fair and equitable redistribution of land that gave their own indigenous population a foundation to build upon. In all actuality and metaphorically speaking. Every leader both of the past and the current should feel a sense of shame for allowing such a destitute situation to exist and to exist for so long.

Dr SMW ayeye to your analysis, research, knowledge delivered to ones understanding 👏 👍 👌 🙌 intelligently educating the common people, excellent dear. You capture your audience immeasurably. Great platform of political analysis 👏

Very helpful and insightful. Thank you.

This is a very serious issue that needs to be resolved soon. I feel all relevant agencies, organizations and political parties need to come together, sit in a room and come up with a workable solution. Which needs to be publicly aired, so the people are always up to date on what is happening and can see all the different points that come across. Its complicated issue that needs resolvement. I just pray that their isn't an over correction, as to what happened in Zimbabwe. There needs to be a fair compromise from all sides.

Hot Take 🔥: Maybe we should start abolishing the idea of private property. Even if we redistribute fairly, it's only a matter of time before the land is concentrated in the hands of the few once again. Only this time, it might not be along racial lines.

Siyafunda lana kwaSMWX. Thank you team.

I would love this topic to be unpacked more in a panel discussion where at least 75% of the time is spent on discussing practical options for the future. Especially if we can show which of these practical options have been tried, how they worked, and how we can improve on them. This is a very complex issue, so I hope the complexity can be engaged and done so in a very practical matter. We are not too stupid to not engage the complexity. Just imporant that the panel takes us on a practical journey as an audience.

Dr Mpofu-Walsh, thank you for the episode fethu. The feelings that you evoked around the apathy of the ANC government touches a very uncomfortable nerve, personally. A feeling that i share being a part of a profession that is basically tasked with the redress of aphartheid's land policies, integral to land governance. Town Planning policy was at the heart of the implementations of unjust land legislation and i guess the other discussion around this topic is the epic failure of this profession to transform south african land from a land policy perspective. Part of the problem is indeed the lack of political will but also it isn't surprising that effective spatial restucturing, of which land reform is a major part, is spearheaded mainly by the leaders of the town planning industry. White South Africans who also enjoy the benefits of how south african land is currently structured. It is interesting when you look into the authors of various land and spatial policy. I imagine every industry in South Africa is similar in this way but when you consider this industry's position in terms of land policy implementation, you cant help but sense a measure of sabotage in the land reform agenda, whether this is conscience or not or deemed academic or professional. If i were a government who was eager to transform south africa in terms of its land id shine a light into the workings of this industry. This industry is so critical to this conversation and im quite ashamed because i feel we share in the anc government's failure in this area.

This conversation is really getting tiring cause everyone is talking but no one is doing anything about it 🤷🏾‍♂️

A very insightful and informative conversation.

Thank you for explaining so well.

This has been so informative, thank you so much! Can you please do an episode on the three spheres of our Governments, what critical role does each have???

Thank you for this informed and thoughtful layout giving a 101 about this historical inequality. I have always had some questions, if there is someway to clarify would be great. Redistribution Question 1 - My grand father had a farm (cup) taken away from him, he has 45 descendants. Who then decides who gets the farm now? (b) And does this apply to my grandmother as well? Restitution Question My grand father had a rich farm (cup)in the centre of a town. My friends father had a poor farm in the middle of the Karroo. How to we undo that inherent inequality? Tenure I have had my grandfather's land returned to me. I am enormously disadvantaged, historically, financially and socially. How do I now start, build, maintain a business in a ruthlessly competitive capitalist market, that has seen people fleeing the land internationally, where using the land for business is too difficult/expensive/unstable? I completely understand the deep seated passions about this. The minority ownership of the country is immoral and unfair. It needs to be rectified . YES. But inheritance itself is horribly divisive. Inequality is dangerously corrosive and savage. Short term sucess and long term unviability have undone entire economies. By the time I get this far I am cross eyed. And is that not why there is no clear law. It is just too complex, potentially dangerous and divisive to be tackled? I am not suggesting doing nothing. But I cannot see an easy answer.

Thanks Doc for being the truth.

Thanks for the education Sizwe

Great video as always. Complex problem and topic...

Thank you for this informative session 👏🏽

Dr Mpofu Walsh🙏

Good content....thank you!

Brilliant analysis. Land and economic reforms are imperative.

Thank you for explaining the two terms

Yoo your analysis of land question is so captivating.Im now empowered abd proud of the Mpofu and Welch families. I wish that my children are like you. You a grown up and a real man and please never ponder emigrating to work at US cause Black SA will really cry!

Best channel on RU-vid

Yet you hear them today complaining there's a "reverse apartheid" when there are redress attempts