Why Mercedes’ bad F1 years are so unlike Red Bull’s 

And even after a decade of the v6 turbo hybrid era Renault is still behind everyone else

Basically RedBull got screwed by a bad engine, while merc screwed themselves

My memory of Red Bull from 2014 to 2018 was that they never had a bad car, just a really crap PU that cost them year after year. Makes you really appreciate how they took the plunge with Honda and gave them an opportunity to rebuild. Think its a story that warrants its own video or documentary imo.

the advantage of having a bad chassi compared to a bad engine is that you can at least see the chassis of your competitors

I recall listening to a Beyond the Grid podcast with James Allison (if I remember) who said they ran the 2014 engine in an idle mode to downplay their advantage. They knew if they ran it near the full potential it would get banned… in fact it was only Bahrain (the duel in the desert) where Lewis and Nico were able to wind up the engine to anywhere near the real potential. Go back and you’ll see them pulling 1-2s PER LAP on the field. It was mental.

2020 mercs in party mode were fucking nuts

Manor coming up with a design that greatly helped Mercedes is like your friend that is not very good at the game but can somehow come in clutch to win the game once in a blue moon.

The big missing aspect of this piece that also makes the Mercedes fall different: The cost cap and aero testing restrictions. If this had happened in 2014, Mercedes would have fixed all of their problems in season by dumping their mighty resources into matching what Red Bull had. The regulations really prevent that from being possible when you start that far behind.

Well, Lewis seems to agree with you anyway

Red Bull's first "dominant era" of four consecutive double titles included two years where the drivers title was decided in the last race, and Seb only beat Fernando in the Ferrari by 3 or 4 points.

Perhaps one of the big surprises in this video is noting that Mercedes once borrowed car dev ideas from Manor and that it ended up being a revelation

i think it's wrong to say that the Ferrari dominance ended because of different reasons than RB or Mercs. it was also regulation changes that where implemented to stop Ferrari dominance and mix the field up that led to "the magic fading"

Wow, thats one of the best breakdowns The Race has done. And thats sayign a lot. I had it on during lunch at work and got a crowd of a dozen by the end. Mega work team.

Renault unable to produce a PU on par with Mercedes. No big surprise there.

Looking back on the turbo-Hybrid years, it's spectacular people (especially one fan base in particular) forget the meaning of true dominance in F1

Probably my favourite video of yours to date. Incredibly well researched and explained

I miss you great fuel efficiency of the early hybrid Mercedes in this video. The car used less fuel to provide the same power as other cars, that they could run 10-15kg less fuel which by itself is already a 0,2-0,5 sec a lap difference in the early dominant years with the split turbo and pre chamber ingnition technology

This is an amazing video. Easily understandable. You guys should start a series with a special name for tech videos that aren’t as dreary as other channels. Best I’ve seen.

I mean the major difference is just what type of regulation change it is. The top team dropped the ball on the engine side when engines changed, and the top team dropped the ball on the aero side when aero regs changed.

Imagine if RB had a solid PU during the dip after the Vettel years, they would have had a really impressive run of years

My favourite type of videos that you do! Love hearing about the technical side & what changed what and all the ins & outs just like this video! Would be great to see some of the engines and the differences properly, obviously not possible with todays engines but maybe from the mid 2010's, to get a picture of what manufacturers all do differently in the power units

What a great video! First one I’ve watched in a long time and my god how much better it is now. Very impressed. Will be sharing this to a lot of others!!!

genuinely brilliant content, especially analysis

One of the better videos from this channel of late. Really enjoyed not seeing any f1 game graphics and a good topic covered.

Excellent explanation. Well done 👍🏾

Wow! Great, deep yet concise analysis, well-delivered! 🔥🔥🔥🍻

To be fair, the FIA ruined the hybrid rules, you couldn't change r modify power unit peaces in season until 2016, when it was clear just how far Honda where behind. Its the first time with new engine rules, that manufacturers couldn't in season develop.(V8's standardised in '08 after 2 years of allowed development)

A fantastically explained & produced video. This is why The Race is way ahead of other F1 RU-vid channels 👏🏼👌🏼

Mercedes also had the advantage of the KERS system they continuously developed with McLaren (while others used an inferior Magnetti Marelli unit) and Sam Bird aid that from back in 2010 they were the only team supplying sim data to the FIA so could tailor the regulations to suit them.

Also to point out, only two people on the grid had PhDs in ground effects. Adrian Newley and Dan Fallows who went to Aston Martin from Red Bull

Great piece of content!

We also need to factor in the significant hiring drive RB went on which including poaching several important Merc staff...

Fascinating... love the new format.

I didn't know Manor was influential to the championship winning Mercedes thank you.

This was a surprisingly insightful explanation of the Red Bull - Mercedes relationship

This was a great video Kudos 👏

Really hope this season is marginally competitive--whether it's a resurgent Mercedes, McLaren continuing form, Ferrari fixing their tire wear, or Aston Martin coming in with another forward leap like last year.

The best competitive seasons have been just before rule changes or as soon as they’ve introduced new rules, never in between, either stick to one or the other properly

During the 2014 Russian GP when Mercedes won their first title, I said when their time comes to loose, they will do so from within like all great empires do. During 2021 they became fractured and this led them to missing big opportunists during that year, then they promoted Mike Elliot who didn't know what he was doing and know it took until the return of James Allison to fix those internal problems.

Yooooo the script on this one 🔥

Great analysis

Red Bull understood the regulations, they just had an underwhelming PU & that set them back. Mercedes seemingly haven't got a clue how to work these cars at the top level.

Ben Anderson been busy in the VO booth at The Race HQ!

tbf after like the first few races of 2014 RedBull understood their biggest issues outside of the Renault engine being subpar and worked hard to resolve those short comings, culminating in a 2016 car that was a pretty regular contender for race wins, and, had the 2017 regulations been an evolution of what we'd seen from 2014 - onward I think it'd of been quite likely that they'd of been title contenders once again way earlier than 2021. if/when Mercedes actually understands all of the shortcomings and resolves the over-arching problem of their staff either jumping ship or straight up being poached off to other teams like McLaren and Ferrari, they'll be back to winning ways but given the current state of both their car and the seeming lack of staff retention, as well as their internal struggles, it may be quite a while before they get back to the front of the field with any regularity. Hamilton stated that one of the motivations for leaving was that one of the technical directors who had the same criticisms of the W14 had left for Ferrari iirc, and, it is no surprise that he has since signed for the team that has picked up all of the former Mercedes R&D people who he agreed with the most since 2022. part of their performance slump seems to be that they are still trying to understand their new car, the rest seems to be internal strife and I don't see enough people talking about the clear signs that in house, Merc is struggling. not only are they losing people but the disagreements about how to develop the car and resolve their current issues is doing more than holding them back, it is bleeding important personnel, it isn't just going to be Lewis that leaves, I wouldn't be surprised if he brings a lot of the people responsible for his success with him to Ferrari & even Bono has been eluding to that it is more than likely that he too will be at Ferrari with Lewis as well. for all of their woes and weird political stunts, RedBull did not have these same issues nor did they have them to the extent Mercedes currently does, if they can't retain people they aren't going to be super competitive, simple as that.

Red Bull always feels like they are steadily progressing every year while Mercedes seems to lose themselves when they are not dominant.

Eagerly awaiting Andretti video…

Mercedes knew about the engine change way before everybody else too

The most important thing in F1 is the aero departament, not the engine. When you have Adrian Newey as the head of aero developement in those ground-effect times which he knows them so well, you are simply the best team on grid by miles. Mercedes simply couldn't do the job as good as Newey and this resulted in a gap over 1s/lap on every circuit between the first and the second team. (Go check F1 TechTalk where this is proved). And to maximize this, Max simply loves to drive this kind of car, while Checo hates it. Everything more than this is bullshit and is spitted for those BTS fans to really believe RB and Max are some demigods. Ferrari/Schumi, Renault/Alonso, RB/Vettel, Mercedes/Hamilton...they have all done it before. It is called team/car/driver best possible combination. It's as old as F1 itself.

Hearing Matt‘s voice talking about F1 just feels right 😌

Can't wait to see these new cars!!!! Mercedes and Ferrari especially.

And we are seeing that the 24 Merc is back to porpoising, something Mercedes clearly doesn’t understand yet. When one looks at the might of Mercedes in terms of their Corporate backup, it wouldn’t surprise me if there is still work going on at corporate that benefits the F1 team - outside of the budget cap. The same applies at Ferrari with their WEC car project. Be interested to know if anyone has any info there.

Mercedes needs to sort themselves out aero wise, want to see a decent season for 2024. McLaren and Ferrari will be up there too.

Since we have 2 years of data, couldn't you also analyze how much engines did improve (if at all)? Do you think with going back to 3 engines per season will make any performance impact?

In 2014 Mercedes made a half decent car and got the best engine on Earth supplied to them. The same year Red Bull made a great car but then got a dog engine Supply to them. Mercedes dominance is completely farcical and red bulls is always been legit

Or merc is just mid when they can't throw infinite money at something

This video forgets to mention that Merc was allowed to secretly test the Pirelli tyres - as if their PU advantage wasn’t enough. Also, they were allowed to keep an illegal car in 2020 with its DAS.

Mercedes dominance from 2014-2020 was mostly thanks to its amazing PU, while Red Bull dominance from 2022 onwards is mostly thanks to its chassis dominance.

Its kinda paradox - new regulation is supposed to give everyone a chance, but those who screw up take years to catch up. By the time they catch up it's already time to plan for new regulations...

I like this more technical review of team comparisons.

If redbull had the engine of the merc during mercs dominant period there would not be a merc dominant period

so early it feels criminal

great video

Red bull's struggles were due to having an enormous engine deficit (anyone with a merc pu were ridiculously good despite incredibly poor aerodynamic philosophies), Mercedes have spent too long with the largest budgets (30-40% more than red bull) and a much more powerful engine.

Im a new f1 fan simce 2020 thanks for this video explanation

Love how the race make it sound like regulatory changes hurting RBR are no big deal but that floor change that hurt Mercedes, that was diabolical scheme agains Toto and Lewis. No mention of course of the whole oil burning "loop-hole" that Mercedes were allowed to get away with for 3 and even 4 years, during the early period of Turbo-hybrids. One of the main "advantages" they had in turn allowing to concentrate on the chassis side of things.

Is it me or did this video already come out? I feel like I remember the video's title and it's not the first time it's happened.

I didn't understand most of that. And yet, I enjoyed it .

In those days RB drivers never cried like the way MB drivers doing now every weekend. Also in press conferences RB boys be it Max/Checco accept that their car is strong if they have an advantage ,unlike the then MB golden boy who kept on crying "We were struggling the whole weekend..the Ferrari is the best car,I gave it everything" , despite having the best package. Still remember the days when Vettel & Kimi giving weird looks at Lewis in press conferences when he kept crying every weekend that the Ferrari is the best .

You either nail it like merc did with the engine and chassis in 2014 and like redbull in 2022. Or you miss the mark like merc did in 2022 and redbull did in 2014.

It's very clear what happens to Merc when they don't have an unfair advantage

FOM straight out told Andretti that they will not be competitive with Renault engines regardless of what they do.

GREAT ANALYSIS 😉GREETTINGS from CABO VERDE ISLANDS🤩🤩🤩

I definitely understood all of that

It's not called turbo jet ignition, it's turbulent jet ignition or pre-chamber jet combustion

0:32 So the entropy model was never valid in the first place

About 2016, the 2nd track where Mercedes wasn't the quickest like Monaco is Singapore surely.

The incompetence of Renault is truly sickening...

The next shake up will be at the next big rule change (2026) - unless a major singular rule change comes in before then (e.g. 2005 tyre change ban)

When the DRS of the RB19 opened, so did my jaw😂

This was timely

Keep in mind that before the cost cap, Merc was spending half a billion on their car

imagine if renault a actually built a good engine over the early v6 hybrid, ferrari, RB and Mercedes battling for both championships

I think we can all agree that floor reg change against merc was nice for competition but it was also an absolute hit job on them from the FIA

Can you make a vid about what happened to Renault f1 team I haven’t really been watching f1

In hindsight I think that final sentence should be followed by an It's Always Sunny title card. The Gang Don't Catch Up With Red Bull

Adrian newey has experience with ground effect car, id wager a lot of the designers dont

Well having access to the new specifications before everybody else also helps…

Lucky for Red Bull that Franz Tost kept faith with Honda that enable them to go back into their winning ways....

Mercedes started developing Hybrid engine years before others did. They had a huge advantage from the get go.

Mercedes had the edge in the turbo hybrid era because they had aerodynamics and engines on their side while Red Bull had aerodynamics but a weaker engine. Then it made for a difficult title fight in 2021 when Red Bull's engine finally reached the best it can be when Honda threw all it can at making the engines better. Then 2022 came around when Red Bull won in aero while Merc failed, but the engines are already evenly (more or less) matched. So it basically boils down into an aero-related battle that Merc lost in 2022 and 2023 because it struggled to get a car concept working properly. Goes to show that just having either a good engine or good aero philosophy will not give you an overall good car. You need both, especially when push to shove during a close title battle.

This is why i'm not surprised Vettel left RB after 2014, but was surprised Ricciardo went to Renault when Honda was arriving.

Re-upload?

Is the side pod concept largely complicit as well ?

Didn’t Mercedes start development before the engine announcements were even made?

In light of recent announcements that LH is going to be joining Ferrari, looks like Mercedes is still struggling.. it's a sinking ship and their main man is jumping ship already. It's a vote of no confidence from the 7 times WDC.

Restrictions on cfd & wind tunnel means which makes this whole thing have a huge element of luck

So Mercedes built a ‘Power Unit’ while Renault still built an ‘Engine’ with add-on parts

The Race: Too far gone? Hamilton: Yep.

Entropy is the perfect way to describe this

But why the fact that Renault was behind the introduction of this set of technology is not mentioned? The regulations agreement was for 4 cilinder engines, and they as redbull behavior when they want something, they threat with quick f1 if this was not implemented. Mercedes was forced to abandon their 4 cylinder project to start they new 1.6 v6 engine. But yeah, it's easy to make accusations but forgetting the background of mercedes making engines.