Why OW2's PvE Fails, But TF2's MvM Succeeds 

Mistake Acknowledgement: - Oil Spill was not the first Mann Up tour, it was Steel Trap. I also completely forgot Destiny 2 was *technically* F2P. Probably because they have several $30 expansions and I always associated the series with having an entry price tag.

Mostly because tf2 players doesnt need to wait 2+years for them to announce we are being lied to about every promise they made

This is the first time ever i see that the tf2 community just stops, looks at ow2 and goes "i feel you mann"

Valve is unmotivated and takes forever to deliver new content but when they deliver they actually put effort into it.

Imagine those two people who are still working at TF2 after 16 years those guys must be so dedicated

As a TF2 player who never got into overwatch, I feel bad for the overwatch community. We might never get updates, but at least we aren't promised updates that then get ripped away from us. That sounds like it hurts about ten times more

Man Blizzard being so bad at their job that they bring Skymin back from the dead is truly incredible.

9:13 "By allowing creativity you instantly gain replayability" i really really liked this sentence, its so true and today's AAA developers don't realize this imo

Don't forget, MvM has charity events every couple of months run by the community, with community made maps, and community made challenge. It's something OW2 can NEVER have because they just don't care about community.

The funniest thing is that both modes took about the same amount of time to develop, but MvM was eventually released

Not saying it will happen but imagine the universe where Valve used this as a chance to release MVM content just to poke the bear.

Overwatch PVE: Heroes fighting evil robots to save the world from doom TF2 PVE: Ragtag bunch of mercenaries beating up robots for the money they drop and because some half naked guy on a TV told them to

I think something Valve always does amazingly is promise nothing and you’ll always over-deliver. The only time I feel like they put something in a commercial or cinematic is when they’ve already developed it or it’s something that’s easy to commit to. Anytime they scrap or change something they completely swing in the opposite direction so even though we never got the hyper realistic gritty tf2 we were initially promised the goofy game we got is still extremely influential and a great game.

Sad thing is is that we have seen what the OW2 PvE would have been like through Deep Rock Galactic, it literally contains everything that was promised for the original PvE and it is amazing. it shows that if they had put more focus onto it then we could have gotten that original vision.

Man, Blizzard just keeps killing OW2, every other week, we hear about their latest blunder or cheap marketing tactic that blew up in the exec's faces. Where as valve have only given MvM three updates in total, including it's introduction, and it's still considered better by most sane people.

Damn. The ending actually made me a mixture of sad and nostalgic. Haven’t played TF2 seriously in a while, but every single point you made was perfect. Great video

I think the main issue that people forgot when it came to OW2 was that it was supposed to be a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAME. It was not supposed to override the $60 OW1 with a free to play, pay-to-win, gutted out bastardization of what the original was.

Why OW2 PVE fails: it doesn't exists Why TF2 MVM suceeds: different gameplay style from the casual mode, exiting boss battles, solidifies the need of team work, the trailer just hits hard even if not a single word is spoken, you can play the MVM theme on the character selection screen (its true)

There is one extra thing I want to highlight from MVM's Mann Up and its an important detail. You know how you need a ticket to play the mode? The ticket doesn't get used until THE MISSION is completed. Did your server of players decide "F-ck this im out?" Well good news your ticket is still there. Losing the match or squad rage quitting doesn't steal money from your wallet. It just cost maybe an hour of your time wasted trying to keep your team ali- WHY DID YOU JUMP INTO THE HORDES? -cough- sorry... had a... moment... but yes the Tour of Duty ticket you bought doesn't vanish unless the mission is completed.

I thought PvE meant Player vs enemy or Player vs evil but hearing that it's called player vs environment makes much more sense

I remember being really hyped for OW2 when it was first announced because I played the first game obsessively. I eventually got frustrated with it and stopped following the news until OW2 released, and I decided to download it blindly. My sheer astonishment when I saw that this was the exact same game with a couple more maps and an obnoxious way to access cosmetics... they didn't only not deliver on the game they promised, they also completely ruined OW1. I was a completionist who had almost every cosmetic for every character from just playing, never bought lootboxes. Now it's impossible. And now they demand more money for PVE, while the game is free, except if you paid 60 bucks for it at release. And that's without even mentioning all the Blizzard scandals. Just... ugh. They turned the most popular game in the world for a while into one of the worst ones.

Snowball Mei is a symbol of everything we wanted, everything lost and a stark reminder of the absolute pittance that was gained. So long my precious rolly angel, you were too good for this industry.

tiny little detail to add about MVM's accessibility: MVM tickets are not considered "spent" by the game untill you have fully completed a MANN UP mission succsessfully

It sounds like overwatch's main issue is the quantity of characters. If there were 9 characters like tf2 then giving them all skill trees would have been WAAAAY easier.

on the topic of cutscenes, this is one of the few times where Halo infnite actually had an amzing approach to them (even if they have been cancelled, big sad). The multiplayer story cutscenes featured your own custom spartan, OC's are a big thing in the halo community and it was honestly incredibly cool see my own character interacting and playing part in the larger story with the other characters. Furthermore they made 2 scenes per event, last one unlocking when you complete the event. They basically countered youtube by giving you personal investment, and putting a buffer on the upload time making it just as fast to play the game yourself than just waiting for an upload. Still a big shame they were cancelled though :(

Skymin's RU-vid career is still more alive than Overwatch 2.

The fact they knew the pve was getting scaled down before OW2 even released and just didn't tell anyone is what really makes it sting.

Blizzard: We're squeezing as much money out of the customers, cut the developer budget. Valve: Send in the Seal.

Let's just not forget that people were saying Overwatch was going to be the TF2 killer.

I truly hope there is a class action suit against blizzard for the constant lies and failures to deliver on top of their aggressive monetization and borderline scams in their games

I honestly can't help, but feel extra sorry for OW2 players. Just like them, I was invested in PvE. The only true reason why I wanted to stick around at all, after Blizz pulled the plug on OW1. Now, what's the point? It's just another ruined by greed money sucker, and that's just sad. And unlike TF2, where community keeps it alive, Blizzard ain't giving the fans such freedom. Which doesn't help the game at all. If anything, further sealing the poor fate of what could've been a good game.

0:50 what's even more taunting is the fact in the first story mission he actually does that move with his shield

It's been 11 years since MVM and it's still the best PVE gamemode I've ever played in a first person shooter. Oh well

For reasons like This, Is why Tf2 is (if you forgive me to say it): *A timeless Masterpiece*

I think a big reason why MvM was as successful as it was is because Valve iterated on feedback. MvM when it first came out was still pretty good, but wasn't nearly as good as it was today. The Mecha Engie update adding in bot variety and new maps, as well as the 2-cities update basically giving medic an entirely new mechanic and expanded upon the existing content perfectly, as well as adding new maps and killstreak kits. MvM also wasn't teased as a reason to make a new game. Valve didn't say "hey guys, we need to make a brand new game and stop giving you TF2 content entirely because we want to make a PvE mode!" No, Valve released that as a FREE update to the game then continued to iterate upon it. OW2 was teased as the reason for needing a new game. Whatever, the engine they used for OW1 was probably bloated af and they didn't want to bloat it, plus they fixed up the big issues with the PvP side of the game alongside that which is nice. Where they failed wasn't that they got to ambitious over it, it was that they refused to even put in the same amount of effort that made MvM so successful in the first place. They scrapped everything about it that even made it interesting and unique in favor of being able to go "hey, we technically still delivered our promise, but with MORE micro-transactions" as well as setting a precedent that you'll have to PAY for future PvE content in the game. Another $15 every season just to get the new PvE content for something so bare bones.

The absurdity of industrial robots built in the 60’s-70’s, have money as their power source, is much more appealing to me then standard technological hacked robots in the distant future

I’m over a week late, but thanks for using my Momocon pic of your Cabana Ana cosplay! I felt super giddy seeing it again after so long.

It's pretty wild to me how MvM has been neglected since 2 cities and it STILL has more content than the product of a big budget studio, even putting aside how much more extensive community server MvM gets, the base game still has more than OW2 is offering,

Another point that I thought of when watching this video: if the lore is locked behind a paid service, will it ever have a satisfying ending, like a real story? Would they have multiple campaigns to never stop making missions? Or would the main campaign just be really long and (probably) boring until it ends to bring back people?...

Skymin i just wanna say you're really one of the best youtubers when it comes to explaining why somethin is flawed/good. I know ur not posting this type of video much but i love that.

This video has been in my feed since it came out and I’m kinda glad I watched it now. I’ve gotten into mvm now and finally experienced the tf2 community firsthand during this time and I can say for sure this video really hits the spot

1:18 In case anyone's curious, here's that list: - F2P model that requires you to spend a lot of time or spend money for new heroes in a game that’s about counter switching - Downgraded user interface/experience - Features taken out from OW1 that rally had no reason to be - Inconsistent matchmaking throughout its current life - Rank rework that made little sense and messed up the system as well as players perception of rank > skill - Removal of loot boxes (which were easily earnable for free) replaced with an overpriced shop - The time to grind the currency for a legendary skin takes entirely too long, almost like they want you to buy their stupid premium currency - Sense of progression erased. Progression is now tied to a seasonal battle pass that’s wiped at the end instead of a player level that would reward you with a loot box - Half assed balancing and reworks at the beginning of OW2’s life resulted in several heroes feeling out of place or worthless - New heroes are over-kitted, as their new philosophy is supposedly to make heroes more generalist and somewhat interchangeable as opposed to specialists for certain situations. Best seen with Ramattra being a master of none and lifeweaver having way too much in his kit - Kiriko immediately contradicts this philosophy due to the absurd utility of Suzu Cleanse making her a must pick in many situations. Ana constantly nading your team? Kiriko. Mei ccing your team? Kiriko. Any hero that has applicable status effects or kill combos? Suzu. Counter an entire ultimate? Suzu. - Push fucking sucks ass to play. It’s super snowbally and absolute agony for immobile heroes (Ana, Zen, Mei, etc.). The matchmaking makes this mode worse than it should be with uneven team skill levels. - The Blizzard polish is gone. This game has had an insane number of bugs, both visually, minor, and game breaking, that shouldn’t occur from a triple A developer whose reputation used to be “polish”. - Game altering bugs can be unresolved for months, but as soon as there’s an issue related to the shop and money, it’s fixed as fast as possible - There’s no simulator for Baptiste to sell me life insurance - I’m serious, Bap could sell me life insurance all day and I’d be content with OW2 - They gave Mercy a Karen haircut - They don’t arbitrarily nerf Genji every patch - We still don’t have speedo skin Roadhog - Not enough gay - Too much gay - We still haven’t seen Kiriko on her bike - I actually hate Kiriko - Like, burning passion hate everything about Kiriko from a visual design and character standpoint - Again, why isn’t Baptiste selling me life insurance?!

The mood the first minute of this video was actually me... Not paying 15 dollars for about 1 Hour of story gameplay. When I can actually pay 15 dollars for a different game with more variety and replayability. My god they dropped the ball so fricken hard.

It's been almost a year since this "sequel" has been out and we still don't have pve

_"Good news! We're not dying! We are going to live forever!"_ _"I didn't say that! I just said we've actually got some form of PVE in our game."_

It's more of a Valve vs Blizzard issue Valve basically lets employees work where they want, and as long as it's making some money they're good Blizzard is more of a "traditional" business, you work where you're TOLD, and maximizing the profit is the main goal The issue for Blizzard is that they're willing to put people on projects who don't love their game, they'll cut out content to save money, and they'll lock things behind paywalls to maximize the cash flow Valve's issue is that flashy new games and projects are more likely to get a larger staff group working on it, while old games like TF2 are left with a skeleton crew because they're old Both have problems but between the two, TF2 was made with love and for enjoyment which is why it is still standing today.... OW was designed as a way to separate they player from their money and will wither and die when Blizz makes a new game to push

The first and only MVM tour I did when it originally came out gave me a Bot killer Minigun, I was so damn hyped I got something for one of my favorite characters I never bought another MVM ticket again. And now I get to still enjoy my Bot killer gun with the summer update, it feels great!

OW 2 is the definition of "If OW was owned by EA" into reality

Blizzard Activision making moves so bad it brought Skymin back. Keep doing it Blizzard Activision.

It's nice to know that there's someone else who's aware that there's more to competition than just aiming.

Haven't seen you in awhile good to know your still here nice vid 👌

Oh hey Skymin, first time I've seen one of your vids since that channel update 7 months ago, great video btw!

I'm glad RU-vid recommended this video to me, it's been nice to see you again, considering you were one of the main people who got me into TF2.

I honestly hope that we get more MvM stuff at some point. I think I almost fell off my chair when I saw that they were going to end up charging for PvE

Great to see you again Skymin :D

Bruh imagine buying a game, and then basically having to buy it *again* to experience the main selling point.

Hearing pve decompressed as "player versus environment" rather than "player versus enemy" gave me whiplash.

I’m here from post overwatch pve launch, and it’s just a bunch of shoot robot, grab thing, and then wait until you need to grab another thing

This video and a community event earlier this year have gotten me interested in community MvM maps in a way I haven't been before.

I remember when OW was touted as the TF2 killer. Here I am watching this with a giant smile on my face @ how the tables have turned 😂

OW2 co-op being canceled bummed me out so much, it genuinely got me hyped to play some casual, campaign-style overwatch 2 with some friends. But we instead got the worst rug pull I've ever seen for a video game.

LOVE THIS! JUST SUBSCRIBED!

Wow skymin its been a long time since I've seen ya upload. Nice to see ya

Not sure it it quite fits the model, but Salmon Run, the PvE mode from Splatoon 3, seems to meet most of the points you were making, it’s a team of four matchmaking mode in which you fight off hordes of salmonids and taking out bosses in order to collect eggs you bring to the basket at spawn before time runs out to clear the wave. There are three waves per shift (with an extra boss fight wave occasionally happening) which can each have a different tide level and gimmick. And your weapons are randomized from a pool for your team. It’s got a lot of variety, it’s the best way to make money in the game, and it’s accessible as soon as you reach lv 4 (which you get after about an hour of play in the main game mode, alongside all other shops). I know it’s not F2P, but I think it qualifies as a good PvE mode based on the criteria presented here

11:27 Soldier's ability to carry around his healing station was shown off in the trailer I think. I remember some content creators calling it out specifically thinking that the april fools was going to be a preview of the upcoming pve content. I guess it was more "let's recycle what we have" 18:55 Most card games have their story mode locked behind either a paywall (usually $15-$20) or an in-game currency grind-wall. (Usually takes 1.5-3 weeks to grind out, low end is TESL, high end is HS) These modes usually provide unique cards as reward, alongside the story missions. Hearthstone's are sort of unique, because they gave up on the story missions at some point and the older story missions can only be purchased with the premium cash currency now. The monetization is very similar to how hearthstone's. (3 act story mission for $15)

TF2 when Overwatch creators say they will delay the PVE update: Laugh taunts

I got so caught up listening to you talk that I got caught off guard by the Inscryption music in the background

Imagine being so mad over discontinued promises to the point that you made your script about a detailed rant about it speaks so much. Keep up the good work bud, hope you dont get a wave full of Überbots

I love how 8 years later TF2 is stll helping to give you content! It has outlived so many EA and Ubisoft titles!

I haven’t watched a skymin video in like 4 years

If I remember correctly (I don't know if it's still the same now) you could use more or less 9-12 refined (from the scrap you made by recycling your weapons) to buy the ticket for MvM

They should have taken only 5 or 6 heroes, given them fully fleshed out kits and made levels arund. Then added more heroes over time and tweaked things if needed. Doing it for 30+ heroes feels like massive scope creep.

also should note that mvm botkillers were a big reason to play, alongside it being really cheap to play, you were guranteed 1 botkiller that could come in a variety of variants, even today blood, diamond, silver, gold, basically any botkiller other than rust hold up really well and still look beautiful

I think it's fitting that the song that plays for the first minute of Skymin losing her mind is called "A little heart to heart". excellent choice

Damn, at one point in the video I could hear the pain in your voice, made me think and almost made me cry

i just got back to playing tf2 and i was visiting the tf2 youtubers i used to watch to see if they are still doing content. i almost tought u dissapeared after i saw that the last video was posted 5 months ago. thank god ur still here

I think leaving the community made work for tf2 entirely is actually unfair. I totally get setting it aside because we want to focus on the on release specefic content. but even just on release tf2 having the ABILITY for community to develop and engage with the game in that way simply doesnt exist in Overwatch. technically overwatch has a mode that lets you change a couple numbers but the actuall creation of new models maps modes content doesnt exist at all not to mention overwatch traps you into using there built in restrictive system and to my knowledge you cant combine it with the pve stuff anyways. my point is that so much of the games industry has moved away from giving communities any level of control over the games they engage with and consume instead only being locked in to the forcefed (and payed for) systems that the industry delivers to the players, they literally dont allow for community tools because they DONT WANT TO COMPETE. This should be on the face of it ridiculous and so tf2 even having that OPTION even before anything gets made is a HUUUGE point in tf2s favor and so removing it entirely from the discussion is foing tf2 a disservice (not that it needs it lol).

3:20 the Forest music in the background of A Hat In Time xD i love it XD

Ninjala has a story mode that's locked behind a paywall

I think what's worse is that, IT EAS CANCELLED WAY EARLIED THAN WAS TOLD... and I got that feeling that Diablo Immortal's Abhorrent Microtransaction System succeeding somehow influenced the higher ups of **Activision-Blizzard** to scrap the PVE for something that is a shell of its former self, one of many reasons why it is what is for OW 0.5

TF2: You pay us to play PVE, but you could make a profit back. You need lots of tickets as well, yeah, but you can choose to play the free one if you'd like. Oh, and it's customizable, not to mention that you can also -*the list goes on and on* OW2: We take the thing we promised you for free, turn it down, take it back up, and make you pay for it again! You can't play it on solo as well! Ha ha, more skins! More BP! We fired more good members of the game dev as well! Cause screw you! We are Blizzard! We can't make a skill tree cause it's too hard, yet we made something like Heroes of the Storms! Diablo! Edit: Yes, the long run isn't gonna be profitable unless you got a really good item like the comments told me. RNG reward system was mentioned 8n the video. Also, for the OW2 free part, I thought the PVE was supposed to be included from the first purchase and come later as an update. Which was the first and main reason why people buy OW2, get the PVE.

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE, WE'RE GOING TO LIVE FOREVER.

TF2 was made at a time when games were made more for fun than money but Overwatch 2 was made at a time when games are made more for money then fun

Holy shit Skymin is finally getting the views she deserves again, it's about damn time!

At 13:17 if anyone wants to know how to fix this issue, you just have to use the console command hud_reloadscheme (I use the command as i enter the game to make sure it works)

One simple answer. To quote Scott The Woz: "It's on the same level as Applebee's and Chicken Fingers. It exists."

The biggest reason why MvM succeeds where OW2 fails is that MvM was actually released.

You pretty much put in words my feelings about Overwatch 2 PvE... Something I can't do because I'm so frustrated with the news. Feels bad. It saddens me even more knowing this PvE business model is probably going to work since people are stupid and just buy anything thrown at their face if it has "SKINS" written on the front.

Destiny 2 forcing people that want to actually play a story to shell out even more cash every update is always a fun one

it’s wild how when you make non tf2 videos i have to search for your channel to see them, but within days of you making another tf2 video it’s at the top of my feed

3:26 hey hey no unlocking core memories like that out of nowhere.

I don't know why, but at 0:02 I swear I read the first time "the day *Skyrim* lost her mind".

After possibly years, RU-vid recommended this channel to me again...

yay more video essays

If you want something like what the OW PVE mode would have been, try vermintide 2, upgrades that persist, a vague story, characters that interact, the works

18:59 INSCRYPTOITOISAN INCRYPTIOR INSCRYPTIO INSCRYPTIONING

God damn it, coming back to your videos i notice all the hat in time music now that I've played it lmao

Love the intro ❤👍 I feel your frustration 🫠

while I wasn't too big into overwatch, it was fun for me at release when things were much more casual and nobody has any idea of what they were doing, leading to chaotic dumb fun. overwatch's pve was what really would have gotten me into the game. it's so unfortunate where it's all ended up.

Team Fortress 2's Summer Update for this year is having it's submissions on the workshop locked in on May 1st, I'd love to see you cover some of the items submitted and also maybe give your thoughts on what an update for TF2 could look like after all this time without one