Why RNG Can Break Games (The Two Types of Randomness) 

my favorite type of randomness in fighting games is dp in neutral

For a little bit more background on the hero ban controversy, iirc, the “this character is too random” argument fizzled out shortly after he was released. While the menu is powerful, hero himself has many weak spots in his kit (some slow and/or underwhelming normals, susceptible to rushdown strategies, etc.). The way I like to describe it is that he’s a mid tier with potential top tier output depending on the matchup (bounce shutting down basically every zoner for example). Even with all of that potential output though, his base just wasn’t strong enough for the majority of players to seriously entertain a ban. The more prominent and longstanding reason for ban discussion comes from his menu. Hero’s menu is all words and no icons. While this isn’t too obtrusive if both players speak the same language, it IS problematic when they don’t. I think the biggest factor for why he hasn’t been banned for the language reason ultimately comes down to the lack of his popularity. Random characters historically aren’t super popular in fighting games as is, so when you have a fighting game featuring close to 90 iconic video game characters, on top of hero being a low high tier at best, that lack of popularity is even larger.

Thing with hero is that he was made for a party game I’m not calling competative smash a party game, they cater the rule set to make it competative But smash itself is a party game and hero wasn’t made for competative smash, he was made for the casual fanbase

i wish i had the reflexes for shingo -- that might be part of why he feels a little more "fair", if that makes sense? he's the kind of output random character where you can't just kinda do the same thing as usual just with a slight buff off a coinflip, you have to adapt to the situation or drop it all like, you know, shingo might if he's caught off guard by his own strength

Surprised no one mentioned Zappa, who you can summon manually for a seemingly random summon (its actually determined by the second digit on the timer) as well as when getting hit you have a chance of unsummoning or summoning another ghost. The worst one to deal with is dog though, since you can use it in block stun and has a reversal option.

0:31 I didn't know Zheng Will-O-Miss was iconic enough to be know by the FGC. Honestly to me it's up there with EVO moment 37.

Bro, that frog must have been really really mad if he slug like that. 8:50

I'm not a Faust main, but the reason Faust was bad in Strive (early Strive, he's better now) isn't because of his rng mechanics. He just didn't have very good tools, in earlier games (Accent Core, Xrd)he's actually high tier. What makes Faust good in those games is that his item toss is his best move, but he's not luck dependent. Even if Faust pulls one of the less good items, he can still get usage out of it if he reacts quickly enough. Faust is consistent because the point of him isn't to hope for a good item (but getting better items is still preferable) but to be better than your opponent at improvising on the fly in reaction to whatever you pull. This improvisational style makes characters who like consistent setups struggle against him because his items and weird normals will force them to abandon what they were doing and improvise, making it difficult to set up. This description probably isn't spot on because I'm still new to Guilty Gear, but he's pretty good in +R and Rev2. TLDR: Faust's items aren't meant to be a "hope for a good dice roll" tool, they're meant to create chaos and unpredictablility that Faust is uniquely tailored to take advantage of.

“If I don’t even know what I’m doing then the opponents HAS NO IDEA WHAT IM DOING”.” But other than that, I think getting that luck can “exist”, but even WHEN you get it, you need to some insane execution or knowledge. Probably my fav is tengu stones in sf5

My favorite randomness is Danger Time, it's hype when it happens cause it's a random chance on every clash in REV 2

This is single handedly the best review of a fighting game mechanic on this entire platform

I’m almost 100% certain that this would be very unpopular with other competitive players, but I’ve always really liked the idea of a hardcore platform fighter that can procedurally generate a new stage every match. (Guaranteeing vertical symmetry would probably be a decent compromise to roughly preserve fairness in serious play.) No joke, I’ve been thinking about this for yeeeeaars. I’ve been thinking about this ever since I first found out about Chess 960 a.k.a. Fischer Random Chess.

I enjoyed this video. There's no randomness in Chess except in what determines who plays with the white pieces and who plays with the black pieces.

another part of Asuka that I feel makes him a fun kind of RNG is one aspect of his deck system. The multiple decks. For those who don't know Asuka & just saw a fuck ton of icons, he has 3 different decks he can pull his moves from, one centered around general neutral, one centered around projectile spam, & another centered around stage control with stuff like staves that alter his projectile properties or teleports. One thing the player has control over is WHICH deck you use. You start in the general neutral deck & Asuka has a specific non-attack move that is effectively a stance change where the deck he switches to is based on what button you press. You can tell what deck he's on by the color of the number that indicates how many cards are left before he'd have to "reload" with the stance move. I feel this gives a fun form of player expression with the RNG because it lets each Asuka player decide HOW they want to focus their RNG

"Shake my hand!" "No!!" "SHAKE. MY. HAND"

Amazing video ! It's always a pleasure to watch them :) I would definitly like to have more "grab bag random" character in figthing games it looks super fun

I used to despise RNG characters back in the day but I’ve grown to love them, turns out they CAN be done tastefully and sometimes it even fits them thematically. I used to play Zappa as a wee lad but Asuka made me realize they dont always have to be jank BS. Nowadays I can even appreciate a good Faust player. I think SSBU Hero was the gateway drug…

I think this is favorite video from you so far. Lots of varied examples with some outside the genre. Haven’t looked into the sources but it also feels well researched. I like how you brought up a GDC talk on randomness too I can’t think of a really interesting example of randomness that I’ve experienced myself but I think Asuka is a really cool character

Amazing video, buff asuka

Tira from SoulCalibur is another great example of this

The uncertainty from Fighting Games is the opposing players' actions and decisions, uncertainty doesnt just equal RNG, its just any factor out of the players control.

I only got to play SSBU a month ago for the first time. (at a local, vs cpus but whatever) Ended up drawing 2, and taking a stock with both kamikazes, out of maybe 4-5 spells in the match i tried Hero. Hehe.

OMG the Sega Rally 2 music at the end

despite item eat being so much better than item toss on Faust I hardly ever do it just because if my opponent has time to factor my stored item into their defensive strategy then the options I get to use in tandem with the item are easier to react too and deal with.

the fairest type of uncertainty is sheer chaos. change my mind

Kl video. I will like to add however sf2 ryu's red fireball was not powered by rng. It was a half a circle motion + punch and u would use in hope that if it hits u get a knockdown so u can walk up on your opponent

It's interesting seeing this debate playing out in the ttrpg space. It seems like every couple of years we all collectively rediscover a way in which input randomness solves some super common problem. Output randomness encroaches, especially in the big name games, because it's exciting and demands less cognitive/creative work to resolve. This shapes the common patterns of play and people forget the old input randomness systems. Then they get rediscovered or implemented in a somewhat novel way and become the flavour of the month mechanic for all the indie games.

Great video, do you have more examples of critical hit characters beside Shingo and Game&Watch?

The Danfinite was the best 😅. Only Dan could have a literal infinite, and still be a low tier character 🤣

New video let's gooooooo

At least characters like Platinum will show the next item, and Asuka has decks. Necoarc is totally random with her remaining life skewing the odds for stronger output. She's more critical hit than grab bag in that way.

I am a recently recovering gambling addict and i turned to fighting games to curve that. but, i may or may not main faust in Guilty Gear, dan in SF, and neco arc in melty blood. *shit....*

18:02 No one with any credit ever seriously suggested banning Hero due to the random factor on its own. That wasnt enough for the discussion to begin - the issue was that it was unreadable RNG - and by that I don't mean it was output RNG, by that I mean people would consider playing in their own local language to prevent opponents from reading their command menu, which was obviously unfair. That was what started the serious "ban Hero" discussion as it was unreasonable to ask every player to learn every language you can set your Switch to use to be able to match up against Hero.

great topic

Suwako from Hisoutensoku.

If I remember things right (fell out of Ultimate around the release of Pythra due to the game feeling too stiff and rigid to me), the main reason people want Hero banned is because of language barrier issues with Command Select. He was considered just alright overall, especially with so much of his kit being reliant on MP, but the fact that international tournaments could run into major issues due to one player not speaking the other's language and thus cannot read their command select menu is what most players were worried about. Then again, maybe things have changed since I stopped playing Ultimate, so take all I said with a grain of salt.

My fav rng character is melee ice climbers

They wanted to ban hero cuz of the language issue i think Like if a japanese hero player goes to an american major it will be much harder for them to understand which move is which On the other hand if someone faces a hero player outside their country it will also be hard to react and read spells cuz you cant read the menu

in sf5, if the 2 players command grab at the same time, or one grabs and the other uses a command grab, the loser is chosen at random

Hell yeah

I know this isn’t exactly a fighting game, but I feel the Custom Robo games do something pretty unique. In those games, it effectively works as a die that determines how quickly you can act at round start. It plays a big role in who gets the first hit, possibly even deciding a game. It’s randomness that affects both players in a way that forces a disadvantage at times. While not really fair, it’s not a huge loss (potentially 30% of HP in a game that won’t last much longer than a minute) and can lead to some exciting upsets. In short, Custom Robo was gone too soon.

imo i like rng best when it's on jokey lower tiers as more of a character flair, once it's put on an actual effective character it become an issue.

As someone who has dabbled a bit of hero and even tried to secondary him at one point his RNG is not that agregious at all. In fact its a miracle that a character behind the balnce team that made Kazuya, Sonic, Steve and ROB managed to Make his spells as balanced as it is. Hero and Asuka are actually very similar in the fact that Hero has to manage a MP in order to use his spells, a problem however is that his other specials moves also rely on this meter. His side special is lowkey one of the best moves in the game and is only held back by being tied to the same resource that gives him the most special moves in the game. Even his recovery is tied to his meter so fishing for rng too much is just an unwise way to play hero. I'd also like to say that most of heroes "Crazy" spells aren't that good and have very exploitable counterplay or they just aren't in the favour of the hero player in the first place. Not to mention that beside from magic burst and kamikaze (both moves that toll a serious cost on hero) or thwack that has a low startup, The opponent can always jump to basically avoid any offensive spell coming their way. While Hero may seem like this lowskill glue muncher that can smite you in a instant, in reality he's really hard to make work in bracket and past low level play. Im not saying he's hard because he's a low tier. I'm saying he's hard to work because in order to succeed with hero you need to push with him at his worst. Sure there have been sets that may have only been won because of the players luck, but there has never been a tournament won where the player didnt have the skill to back it up

How about those question marks featured in fighting game rosters that let you choose your fighter at random?

I think rng can keep a game fun and on your toes, if they can properly adapt it so it doesn’t break the game

8:52 aint that Miguels unblockable from T7?? Lmao

Hero is the best designed character in a fighting and it's actually fair, still can't believe people wanted to ban a low tier character lol

You remind me of Johnny Arnett, the basketball youtuber

It got reposted ?

😎👍

No Steve discussion lol

Thoughts on killer instinct

You forgot to mention that fighting games are constant gamble and rps.

You cant conflate randomness and unceirtainty. There is lots of uncertainty in any good fighting game. Be it RPS or execution barrier.

17:11 Hero mains be like: Skill issue 🗿

When it comes to randomness in fighters, I'm of the stern belief that regardless of the randomness, it should still be of positive benefit to you. The benefit might not be the ideal outcome for the situation and maybe you still need to appropriately react to what you get, but it's always good enough that its still worth using. So essentially, I'm mostly just against critical failures. If a move can't be consistently reliable, there's just no point in using it. If you had a good combo that randomly drops once every ten times, of course you're going to avoid using it. You never know when it'll fail you in a crucial moment. Especially if it somehow puts you in a worse position. I'm probably going to regret bringing this up but "Arcana Heart 3" has a pretty interesting example that I've been a fan of. To explain a mechanic real quick, in it, you choose a character as your fighter and then an Arcana which grant various additional specials, supers, and effects of their own onto the character you're playing. Think of it like the Infinity Stones from "MvC:I" but more diverse and in-depth. So here's Saligrama, the Luck Arcana. The main special you get from it involves throwing a 6-sided die. The number it lands on will cause the die to explode that amount of times. Its main super involves throwing two dice which add together to give the amount of explosions, but if both dice are the same value (1 and 1, 2 and 2, etc), the explosions are larger with less proration...so more damage. Its ultimate involves throwing a giant die. A 1 summons multiple small dice that fall across the screen with tiny explosions, 2-5 summon the same amount of large dice that each explode, and 6 summons a singular massive die that basically covers a large area when it explodes. So regardless of the outcome, you still get something. The die itself is also a projectile until it lands so it even has that bit of consistency to it, often used as oki with the explosions being something you adjust to when following up. But that's not all, Arcana also give passives, and Luck has multiple passives with a random chance to activate. Savitr - This will randomly cause a period of invincibility from start up to the release of any ground E (universal chargeable launcher) move. Manyu - This will randomly force counter hit status after landing a non-CH hit on your opponent. Tapas - This will randomly prorate damage taken by an extra 10% when hit...so you just take less damage. Pusan - This will randomly cause a single hit that would KO you to leaving you with 1 HP instead. None of these are abilities that you will count on but at the same time, you don't lose anything if they don't activate. On the other hand, when they do activate, they can be very helpful. And remember, this is just something you are giving to your character on top of what they already can do on their own. So even if the randomness wasn't in your favor, it won't make or break your game plan. It just helps more if you happen to be luckier.

8:52 there is no fkin way croagunk did tekken's miguel taunt

Fighting games are like rollback netcode. You just roll the dice and hope for the best

Pretty sure judgement is just who has the higher score, its not some mystery

I want see a Story where a character has an RNG power and actually PUTS WORK INTO IT, *NO PLOT ARMOR!* "This seems useless... Okay bare knuckle it through the cooldown!" "WAT DIS?! Okay people, any idea might work, BRAINSTORMING TIME!" "... WTAF... What? That other thing? Sure, try whatev-- *We almost died there."*

no joke, Asuka plays basicly like megaman Battle Network games

Hehehe faust item throw

That statement of a game not being a game without randomnese seems incredibly weird to me Dare i say wrong

POKKEN FOOTAGE

Asuka isn't random though. If a player is skilled enough or has planned enough, they know what card comes when, at the start of the match all the cards are in the same position.

What was wrong with the first thumbnail ?

Faust

Faust🫡

19:38 for me -there are bugs in your skin peel off your skin-

obligatory Hisoutensoku comment

Gamblers

Best way to balance it, just don't put it. Idk how can people justify randomness in a competitive game.