I drive the hell out of my Rx8 and achieve 16.5 mpg average while v8 chargers, Camaros and mustangs achieve 8-12mpg average. I doubt they drive theirs like I do mine. Friend has a 5.3 truck, we both have tunes he achieves 4mpg average. I have a sohn adapter and my tune increased my injection of two stroke by ten percent. I use roughly half a quart per tank. I premix with 10fl ounces. Some reality beyond the jokes. :)
@@farmerjunge He is referring to the 2010 Audi A1 E-Tron Concept car which had a Wankel range extender. There was considerable speculation that Audi was developing a new advanced Wankel engine design. Unfortunately the concept actually used a 1970s Sachs KM24 engine salvaged from a Hercules W2000 motorcycle. Audi like the rest of the automobile industry lost interest in range extenders after improved batteries became available.
@@mikehunt9894 Curtiss-Wright, General Motors and Mercedes-Benz had the largest Wankel development programs in the world. General Motors at on time was spending as much 10 million dollars per month on Wankel development... Mazda was among the smaller of the 26 Wankel KKM licensee's with a limited budget and zero experience in engine development. Prior to the Wankel Mazda only manufacturered engines from other companies under license.
I think the reliability problems could have been fixed, and where I live, rebuilding a rotary is far cheaper than rebuilding a piston engine, because there are so few parts. Granted, it's more prone to failure due to the issues we all know (sealing failures and such) but I think that overall, that could have been fixed. After all, most dedicated rotary owners have third-party solutions installed to fix those reliability issues. Problem is fuel efficiency & emissions. A RX8 can eat like a supercar going presto even at normal city speeds. Like 15l per 100km. That's a lot in a world in which efficient, full combustion cars can go as low as 5l, and a Porsche 911 can do 7-10. And there's emissions. They burn oil by design. Inherently, they pollute a lot more.
I've heard that running them on LPG will solve the oil burning problem, because LPG doesn't mix with the oil. I wonder if Mazda can make some sort of skyactive tweaks (high compression, leaner air-fuel mixutre) on the engine. Piston engine can have poor fuel economy too, one example Subaru WRX/STI worse fuel economy than BMW inline 6.
Basically a 2.5 stroke? lol just keep them lubed and you won’t burn those apex seals. I’m all about simplicity! So beautiful 🥲 no valves or timing chains or cams… just a weird circle thing and a rotating triangle 😂 I love rotaries!
I absolutely loved my RX-7 convertible. People probably thought I was crazy, because sometimes I just laughed out loud while driving it. It was that much fun.
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I think that no matter how you slice it, Mazda has just always had weirdness going for it. I'll always love that unique style, and I'll always hope to have an SA-22 in the garage. Too cool.
@@willg125 Believe in JESUS today, confess and repent of your sins. No one goes to heaven for doing good but by believing in JESUS who died for our sins. GOD loves you soo much unconditionally.🤩❤😍🤗😄
Mazda has always had the lowest prices going for it... but now with decent quality cars coming from Korea and China, Mazda is really struggling to stay in business...
Interesting video. Thank you. My greatest automotive regret was selling my RX8. Everything you say is true, but you left something out. They are absolutely delightfully fun to drive. The rotary engine finds itself at relatively high RPM. And when I say high I mean HIGH! 😱 For instance, entering a cloverleaf and accelerating through it.. downshift one or two gears to 7000 RPMs and accelerate. You can easily go to 10,000 RPM on an RX8 - something most cars would drop fragments of pistons on the road as the engine blew. So it’s not a muscle car dragster, but it finds itself on curvy highways. I much prefer it to the Porsche I have now. The weight distribution was just perfect. The major reason for it being discontinued, was emission regulations. Rotary engines by definition burn oil.
@Andy Birks There must be an epidemic of gullible fools in your area? if you were smart? You would sell that pile of junk to the first sucker that offers to buy it!
@Andy Birks The RX8 is indeed a car... it also happens to be one of the worst cars ever made... anyone who is knowledgeable regarding cars is aware of this..
"That's cheap RX8 isn't looking like a deal anymore" What? For a weekend car it's an absolute bargain. The car I'd compare it to is the S2000 and the RX8 has slightly better handling and is way easier to drift. Even with a very expensive rebuild of 5k$ you can get an RX8, a full rebuild with bridgeport making it go BRAP, 5 years worth of fuel and it will still cost you like 1/4 the price of the S2000.
@@BigMan7o0 bridgeports have worse engine life no matter how good you build them compared to other types of porting like extend porting. when bridgeporting your essentially cutting down the area that the corner seal passes over, cutting down the lifespan of the motor over time. the lifespan of a bridgeported motor has many other factors that decide how long it'll last like the size of the bridge, how hard you will drive it etc. it does however have its benefits like increased power thru mid range and top end drastically, at the cost of low end torque, making them a not really good option for street however this doesn't stop people from doing it. bridgeporting is great for race motors and such, but for daily use and practicality they are not that good. they increase fuel consumption, reduce driveability and smoothness etc. rotarys can be very reliable if you build them right, all depends on what modifications you make to them though.
I've had my RX8 for 11 years. It has been a generally good car. Well, until a few weeks back when it blew a seal on a track day, with 76k on it. I would rebuild it but there are so many Friday, afternoon rebuilds. Even if it is rebuilt well, it's 20mpg (10 on track) and £600 UK tax. They are fun cars that, to be honest you are better off avoiding.
I feel like most owners of rx7/8s (who still own them) have all said the same. To be a rotary owner, you have to be a pretty dedicated fan. You can't just expect to treat it like any normal car. Unfortunately, there's a ton of delusional fans in the comments who may have never even owned the car.
You got 11 years of trackdays and thrashing on 1 build of a renesis, don't know how you can be unhappy with that. Any car driven on track is going to have a shorter life. In that same time frame I'm on my 3rd 3SGTE
@@scottd8991 Very true. The car had a pretty good run. I would say that I am happy with my rotary ownership period. Many cars would not have withstood the thrashing it had. I'm missing being able to drive it already.
I've heard that for smaller light-duty engines, there have been some substantial improvements -- but this is in the 1/4 to 4hp range. I love mazdas, and am sticking a toe into the crossover market, so the MX30 is very appealing. When I was a kid, a neighbor had an RX3 that rev'd over 10K and sounded amazing. Of course, it was up on blocks a lot waiting for parts a lot. And I still remember Mazda's jingle from the 70's "Piston engine goes boing boing boing boing boing but a Mazda goes Hhhhmmmmmmmmmm"
Not true, the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that smaller engines are inherently less efficient. Mazda abandoned all development of Wankel engines in May 2009. The MX30 is in full production and is available in selected markets. It will only be available in a 100% plug-in battery electric vehicle or a mild series hybrid powered by a 2.0 liter 4-Cylinder Skyactiv G engine.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Believe in JESUS today, confess and repent of your sins. No one goes to heaven for doing good but by believing in JESUS who died for our sins. GOD loves you soo much unconditionally.🤩❤😍🤗😄
@@sandervanderkammen9230 agree small engines when driving at low speed is sure efficient but push that small engine a little bit harder your fuel cons gonna be worse than v8s
@@reynaldiwidjaja277 Actually just the opposite. Smaller engines are more efficient when pushed harder. Keeping the engine under high load improves BSFC and thus improves overall fuel efficiency.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 are you telling me pushing an engine is gonna improve efficiency? What do you think is the main cause for inefficient combustion? Engine heat
You most certainly don't need to be a specialist to rebuild a rotary engine. I built my own 13b monster bridge port in our shed on our farm with the help of just a book. This was mid 1970s, in those days, nothing could touch them bang for buck. My completed built in those days was 2000 folding. That includes lightened, balanced rotors and new housings and new everything else including the clutch. She could drop 225hp at the wheels after a few hours on a dyno. That car had a 4 barrel Holly and inlet manifold with a beautiful air cleaner with the velocity trumpet in it from Rotor motion on it, that was a very cool piece of kit. That may not sound like much of a big deal, but I'm from NZ, so it was at the time. My old rx2, what a fun car that was.
yes, all RX7´s and RX8´s are considered as mid-engined cars, due to the engine being placed behinde the front and infront of the rear axle. They are called front-mid-engined (like an SLS or a Corvette)
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My household had 3 first gens and 2 second gens. Rotary cars are very special, but today I drive a 50k mile BRZ/FRS/GT86 as I really don't want to be on automotive forums 24/7 trying to diagnose and fix my sportscar on life support. No regrets, not even the 85 where I changed the gearbox oil and had to do synchros and bearings right after. No regrets, not even lightly drifting at over 100mph on lakeshore in Saskatoon in the 91. No Regrets on the 82 that I bought for $1200 in 95 and wrote off for $3k in 96. No Regrets for the 82 that I power shifted until the clutch disappeared. No regrets drifting the bridge loop at work every day in 100hp car. These cars were simple enough that a kid could learn how cars work and how to diagnose car problems. These cars changed my life... but today I choose an FRS. Its still lightweight, low CG, better suspension, killer in the corners - but its good on gas, doesn't break and will last twice as long... maybe more. Here's to the car and the engine that taught me how cars work and how to drive them. RX7/8.
@@CaramelColored Have you driven them both? Wanna be? What does the 86 want to be? I find it a fun car, like my rx7s. RX8 was a bit a disappointment in the looks dept for me but performed fine. Not quite as drifty as I like TBH but it wasn't my car so I didn't really get into it. I don't really understand people who trash the gt86 as though the original was somehow a better daily. Do you mean the rx8 is objectively better only in the suspension department or that you would rather own an rx8 or that you do own an rx8 and somehow need to defend its honor against the waves of 86 owners who just can't see how good the rx8 is... Let me know. I'm genuinely curious what makes you blurt out insults to a car that I can only assume you have very little seat time with.
@@dachanist Yeah, I have driven the wannabe 86, multiple RX7s, multiple Rx8s including the one I daily, every iteration of supra (except the BMW one), every iteration of Skyline (except the crap V6 one) and every other iconic JDM car at least 3 times. The FRS is not a gt86 so it's a wannabe 86 and the original is 100% a better car all-around. The RX8 has, factually, better suspension, better accel, more torque, FAR better interior, better brakes, drifts better, better and easier to insure, lower road taxes, sounds heavenly in comparison to the bloated walrus grunts the FRS pukes out. No need to defend it against FRS owners because you lot are just like the Tesla idiots with your bloated self worth and skin deep superiority complex, frankly I don't care about your opinion but I have no problem slamming you back down to where you belong.
I remember owning the 2004 RX8 high power, it was lots of fun, the sound was great. My main issue was the rear wheels slipping way too often though, I moved from bridgemoans to conti's and that mostly solved the issue. The oil top ups was annoying but the 18 MPG on average was pretty dire but I bought it for the smiles per gallon anyways :)
I remember the Mazda RX8 being recalled for premature engine failures and Mazda settled a class action lawsuit admitting that it lied about the RX8 horsepower specs. The engine failure recall was largest of its kind with over 60,000 engines replaced in the first year alone Mazda opened a new warranty engine remanufacturing center in Chesterfield Virginia to keep up with the demand for Renesis engines.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Whats kinda sad is that the engine replacements were only in USA and Japan, here in the UK you were stuffed with a useless car :\ Mine was fine luckily but I was part of the members group and saw many horror stories.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 The only recall notices I get when searching are for a fuel pump O-ring, very early production lower control arms and/or ball joint casing and the Takata Air-Bags which effected multiple different car companies and models. I've noticed that you hate the engines but that's no excuse to make shit up, you could just not watch Wankel/Rotary engine videos so you won't waste hours of time posting nasty comments.
@@Cluuey You are clearly not familiar with the Mazda RX8 and its huge premature engine failure fiasco. It's absolutely nothing personal, the facts here are irrefutable, the RX8 was the worst sedan Mazda ever made and without question the worst RX model made by Mazda. Wankel engines are obsolete today because they are inherently inferior to reciprocating engines and cannot compete against them in any type of application.
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@@sandervanderkammen9230 Believe in JESUS today, confess and repent of your sins. No one goes to heaven for doing good but by believing in JESUS who died for our sins. GOD loves you soo much unconditionally.🤩❤😍🤗😄
@@alunesh12345 Felix Wankel and Hitler were both racist Nazis, evil minons of Satan, Jujiro Matsuda was an atheist and admitted to being a racist and admirer of Felix Wankel. The Good news is Jesus still loves you and God will forgive your ignorance and evil wickedness.
Always thought that the MX-5 (miata) should have had a Mazdaspeed version with a rotary in it from factory, even if it was the NA from the RX-8, in the smaller car it would be magic.
The reason why Mazda MX5 was a huge success is because it didn't have a Wankel engine. The RX8, which shares the same SE platform was a $3 billion dollar failure.
4:08 The arrow at the lower left points to the primary inherent problem in the Wankel engine: this area of the stator housing (in red) is constantly exposed to the hot combustion gases, consequently lubricating oil that impinges on this surface is quickly burned off. As the apex seals sweep over the hot, dry surface, the steel-on-steel friction wears them down rapidly, this is the main reason the overhaul interval is short in Wankel engines. Also, the long, cornered combustion chamber leads to incomplete flame propagation and poor combustion efficiency. The shape of the combustion chamber gives it a larger surface area than a cylinder, which contributes to poor overall thermal efficiency. On the other hand, compared to the reciprocating engine the Wankel is small, light and cheap to manufacture, which may make them ideal in certain specialized applications.
The primary failure mode of all Wankel engines is compression loss due to apex seal damage. Damage directly linked to high brisance and ablative damage related to poor combustion eg: detonation and pre-ignition. Apex seals are inherently weak, flawed by design and prone to damage, The Wankel engine cannot support the high swirl or Quench type combustion chamber architecture. Wankel engines have zero advantages over reciprocating engines and are obsolete technology because they are inferior to reciprocating engines in every application. Any questions?
@@sandervanderkammen9230 there's always a fix for minor issues like this. It doesn't even sound complicated. There only isn't one because everyone stuck to pistons. Rotaries sound amazing though.
@@davidt8087 Lol! Indeed you are very confused and naive... The flaws in the Wankel engine are inherent in the fundamental design and cannot be fixed, all of the major engine manufacturers have reached the same conclusion. This is why the Wankel is obsolete technology now.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 show me a resource. If wankel was for some reason the only engine design chosen by the world, you really think they wouldn't have fixed the oil issues or miles per gallon issues already? Engineers who are good at their job can overcome such challenges. Reminds me of carburetors vs direct injection. Without technology carburetors would have seemed like the only major affordable choice
1998 to 2002 rx7's would make around 300hp stock with the waste gate limiter removed as all auto manufacturers in japan had a agreement that none of the sports cars would make over 275 Hp
I read about diesel rotary engines years ago. I wonder if diesel would give a bit longer life to the seals as it is a bit more "oily" fuel. The concept of the rotary engine is amazing. The practicality just has never been there. I had mostly forgotten about them but a while ago I saw a few RU-vid channels building and doing rebuilds. I am glad that they have a bit of life still.
All of the original Wankel engine licensee's have abandoned development of Diesel Cycle variants including the 'Diesel-Ring' consortium. The Wankel engine cannot support the static compression ratio needed to for reliable compression ignition. Low sulfur Diesel fuel is a very poor lubricant and has a lubricity of only 600mu, about the same as gasoline. The Wankel engine is an obsolete technology today, no longer in development or series production anywhere in the world... it is now the sole domain of crackpots and con men like Ernie Brink and Rob Dahm.
Sure the rotary is obsolete. But why hate people who enjoy obsolete things? We still got typewriter and Walkman and Ancient Latin and martial arts lovers going around. Yet those were superceded by computers and printers, smartphones, modern languages and firearms. Let go of your hate brother. You'll feel better in general. Time spent on hate is wasted time, and time is precious.
@@ujiltromm7358 Why do you feel the need to kill the messenger? What is it that you hope to achieve??? Its not going to bring the Wankel back... just accept the facts and move on with your life.
If people want to spend a lot of time rebuilding things then let them buy rotary engines or boxer engines (H engines ie: Subaru). It's up to people what they do with their money. I, however, choose to be smart. I'm not gonna spend a lot of time having my engine rebuilt. If I buy a vehicle, I want to drive it. Not have it in the shop.
So, the 1.3L rating of the 13B was based on the displacement of a single chamber of the rotor... But as far as mass flow over RPM, the 13B is actually comparable to a 2.6L engine. This is a pedantic little detail, but the 1.3L designation was a great boon for advertising, since they could claim 200hp+ from a "1.3L engine," but makes their fuel consumption/displacement sound abysmal. If you think of them in terms of actually being equivalent to a 2.6L 6-cylinder, their power and fuel consumption make a lot more sense. They DO still have the advantage of small size and weight for displacement. That oil consumption, though...
Absolutely, engineers, government agencies and motorsports sanctioning bodies use the 2X formula conversion and rate the 13b as a 2.6 liter. Unfortunately the Wankel engine has not real advantages in power to weight ratio performance or power density which is why they were a failure in motorcycles and aircraft... Of course the horrible reliability and durability problems is the main reason why the Wankel engine is obsolete.
Owned an RX7 and an RX8 never had an issue with oil consumption usually top it up once between oil changes plus mineral oil is cheaper then other engine oils so it’s not expensive, mpg is the main issue
@@sandervanderkammen9230 only major thing I had go wrong in over 8 years was the oil pump going on the RX7, part of the problem is they need more looking after than a piston engine, a lot of owners don’t realise or don’t bother then run into problems. Having said that your not going to get as many miles out of one than a piston engine
Back in the late 70s I had two Mazda RX3s, there was little that quick on the streets and I loved them. More recently I've had two Suzuki RE5s, not quick but a joy to ride.
Seeing the rx7 from nfs carbon being referenced even for just a second made me happy asf, that version of it made me fall in love with the car and have been ever since I got that pink slip from the boss as a kid.
"Rotaries make awesome hp/L" Only if you count the swept volume of one chamber of each rotor. Essentially, if you ignore 2/3 chambers, they're incredibly small displacement. The only reason why this "Geometric Displacement" started being used was to dodge displacement taxes in Europe and Japan (thanks to Max Bentele suggestion when visiting Germany's NSU, the company that licensed and built the first Wankels). Ironically, people bought into the Geometric Displacement that was sold to lawmakers, so now they think the rotary is some engine that makes god-tier HP/L, when that displacement figure is clearly a ruse at every possible metric. When you look at their "Thermodynamic Displacement" like engineers do (counting all 3 chambers for displacement), it's easy to see why they're so thirsty. A 13b has two 654cc chambers firing every crank rotation. That's akin to a 2.6L four cylinder... Which is why "Equivalent Displacement" ratio is used in competition. Despite spinning at a high RPM, they're actually slow to fire all three chambers on each rotor. If Thermodynamic Displacement were used for rotary displacement in competition, they'd be absolutely trounced. But again, people have been fooled by the Geometric Displacement that tricked lawmakers, so they automatically spout off about how "a bigger engine is needed to compete against a 1.3L rotary". Essentially, that RX8 example of "174 hp/L" only seems good when Geometric Displacement is used (ignoring 2/3 of the chambers. If Equivalent Displacement is used, it's only a paltry 87 hp/L. If the Thermodynamic Displacement is used, it's only 58 hp/L, which is absolutely dismal. And before the comments about "that's not how it's supposed to be measured" rain in, you can talk to the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE, the organization responsible for regulations concerning power claims from car manufacturers) that include all 3 displacement measurements in SAE J1220 (approved June 1978); which included all three to satisfy everyone since a single procedure couldn't be agreed upon (manufacturers didn't want the displacement taxes, and racers didn't want the severe disadvantage) You can continue to pick Geometric Displacement as your preference, but if you want to understand the rotary's pros and cons, the best way to do so is to consider all three chambers of each rotor. Only counting the swept volume of 1 chamber per rotor is like only counting the swept volume of a 4 stroke engine in 1 crank rotation (meaning a 5L V8 would only displace 2.5L)... Which would be completely absurd to virtually everyone. That said, a rotary's biggest benefits is how much displacement it can fit into a tiny, lightweight package and its minimal amount of moving parts for that displacement.
You didn't mention the internal gearing, a rotary takes three revolutions to complete a combustion cycle on all chambers where a conventional engine only takes two revolutions. Once you realise that a 13B is a 3.9l 6 cylinder which revs to 6000 RPM, they make a lot more sense.
When GM was testing the C4 corvette, they tried out several rotary motors, the "big one" was a twin turbo 4 lobe. turns out that it got so hot, it melted the housing (gm did it again with the ZL motors of today). we never got the "Rotovette" but one can still imagine.
i wouldn't trust a rotary built by GM. they still manage to pump out shit engines and they been making them for awhile, can you imagine a completely new to them engine that is already known for reliability issues? fuck that i'll put in a upgraded mazda version if i wanted that.
@@djjaysky9071 Rotary cars are extinct and RX cars are known for being horribly unreliable. On the other hand, the Corvette is one of the best performing and highest priased cars in the world. Yeah sorry, reality proves you wrong.
Rx8, the joke of Mazda, held its value like a child holding a red hot coal. Pick 1 up for a grand and that’s pricey. That’s why a lot ended up with kids modifying them to make them even worse. 🤣
rx8 had better lap times than supras and gtrs while relased. Up to today many rx8 hold the top lap times on race tracks, losing mostly to awd cars. There are mostly rx8 on time attacks in my country. The car is funny cheap and its a great weekend car. Value goes down, but its good for us. And LHD r3 2009+ lift mazdas rx8 are very rare and nowhere to be cheap. Engine problems were caused by people using mazda oil which was designed to fail, now people tune oil injectors better and use good oil. 350z v6 did die all around the world too, because people used cheap oil on them.
@@szaka9395 😂 I accept they have a following within the younger guys but believe me a lot of people lost a lot of money within 2yrs on these heaps of shite. My cousin use to be a Mazda mechanic and even he said it was a waste of time developing this hence why they ditched it but just not quick enough.
A Wankel engine is just about the worst engine you could use for an electric generator. They call it a 1.3 liter engine but it actually fires each cylinder more times per output shaft rotation than a traditional 4 stroke reciprocating engine. That means it acts more like a 2.6 liter engine. If you compare the fuel economy of a 2.5 liter Nissan Altima 4 cylinder to the RX8 you will see that the Altima has vastly better efficiency. It even produces similar Torque to the RX8 and weighs slightly more. Yes the RX8 has more power. However, if you compare the turbocharged 2.0 liter Altima to the RX8 you will see that the Altima surpasses the Wankel engine in the RX8 for Horsepower and Torque all while having vastly superior fuel economy in a heavier vehicle. The Wankel engine is SPECTACULARLY inefficient no matter what you do to it.
i would love a 6 rotor muscle rotor car like a viper lol A 6 rotor would have a ton of torque and then if you turbo charge it, then it would just be a beast
@@mikehunt9894 yeah, but would a 6 rotor fit in a vette? Because a 4 rotor would just not have the oomph that a 6 would and a turbo 4 has already been done a ton. I have yet to really see a 6 rotor let alone a turbo 6 rotor.
@@charliemaybe Corvette's dont weight anything.. infact probably just as light as a 90s rx7.. So a yeah a boosted 4 would power it fine.look on youtube, someone has done it already
@@mikehunt9894 I know a vette can be light especially with a turbo 4 rotor in it, but have you ever seen a serious build of a turbo 6 rotor before? I mean imagine rolling into a meet with a viper acr or something and popping the hood and you just have a long line of rotary and it would look so good and have the power and torque to back up the viper badge
Most rotaries die. Due to people beating on them and not keeping up with the maintenance. Unlike a piston motor. A rotaries motors maintenance directly correlates to how it's driven. And most people's maintenance habits can't keep up with their driving habits
@@terrellfair9812 I certainly hear what you are saying here, but tbf rotaries actually enjoy a good beating on occasionally lol. I mean that the Mazda techs I've spoken with tell me to redline my Rx8 at least once a week to help blow out any excess carbon deposits. But I absolutely agree that they require meticulous maintenance. But good God it is by far the most enjoyable car to drive that I have ever owned!
@@ambergraves798 Your engine is already damaged if you are having carbon build-up, carbon deposits are a direct indication of low compression. You must have driven some really garbage cars.
The Rx8 might of had a rotary engine. But it was far different compared to the RX7s. The emissions regulations made Mazda redesign the 13b and tried to reduce the oil injection which caused premature failure. My FD never had a "need to top up oil every third fueling"... Drove 2000 km through Germany and the Netherlands. Barely any oil missing.
Mazda never made Rotary type engines, only Wankel engines. Still a 13b series The primary failure mode is not related to lubrication. Apex seals are inherently fragile and unreliable. The 13b suffered from compression loss failures both in the turbocharged engines and the high compression Renesis because apex seals cannot handle high combustion pressures and are quickly destroyed by detonation/pre-ignition
I was always fascinated by these because it's under developed and could still possibly be a game changer someone needs to make a double dorito with combustion happening between both chips \/ to possibly do away with alot of the apex seal issues
That statement reveals a shocking lack of knowledge about the development history of the Wankel engine... The Wankel engine obsolete technology because it is inherently inferior to reciprocating engines and horribly unreliable. There is no cure for the fatal flaws in the Wankel KKM57 design... that is why there are no longer any legitimate engineers or manufacturers working with the Wankel, it is now the sole domain of crackpots and con men.
i think there’s a dude with a channel who talks about upgrading rotarys. bro has some wild claims about upgraded rotary motors, 700+hp, 50 mpg. it sounds fantastical but if you own one why not i guess
@@dereksmith7082 Travis Pastrana has only won Rallye events driving a Subaru. He has also won several other motorsports victories driving a Toyota, Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge and Ferrari. Mazda left racing and no longer has any factory motorsports program.
When I was kid my favorite uncle drove a new 1988 Rx7 and took me for a drive when he bought it. Every sportscar we stopped beside wanted to race. This was in Chicago suburbs in 1989. RIP uncle.
My first car was a 1984 Rx-7 and always wanted the third gen so bad but I was young and poor 🤷🏻♂️. I know it didn't have a rotary but had an S-2000 later which was also unique and fun. I have looked up these cars today and low mileage ones are insanely priced but they are very rare so I get it.
They are not 650cc. It's more like 1300 or 1750cc. Cc is calculated when all cylinders have fired. So 650 being one dorito side the full number should be 1750cc. It's very small for it's size and very light. But this way of calculating it's cc makes sense for alternating piston comparisons and explains why it was so damn thirsty. 2x650 it's like a 6 cylinders 2.6 of the same era.
@@Aditya-sc6wu each rotor has 3 sides that is 654cc each. An engine displacement is calculated when all pistons have fired once. This means that the number should be tripled. But usually 4 stroke engines do that every 2 crankshaft rotations. The Wankel fires one side each crankshaft rotation so the displacement should be at least doubled if we have to compare to alternate piston engines.
@@davidpriestley7585 You need to learn about how swept volume displacement is calculated correctly. "Tax Displacement" is a concocted marketing gimmick.
Driven Media: "RX-7 will never be as fast as a Veyron no matter what those Dorito chip huffing jokers will tell you." Rob Dahm: *Crinkles bag of Doritos and whips cheesy finger at us* ..."Challenge accepted."
@@funfun5656 Rob Dahm is a drug dealer and a fake. He has absolutely no formal education or professional experience in automotive engineering.... he just buys alot of expensive perts and blows them up.
If someone decided to redefine the rotary and make it more reliable but still keep that rotary feel rotary's will make a come back in the car market and racing scene
Dude what an original concept for an automotive RU-vid video. I literally have not seen this opinion anywhere else. Rotary engine bad? Burns oil? Apex seals breaking? Cooling issues? I had no idea. Man if only every other car channel had made this video I would have known sooner.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 my guy most of the internet shits on rotaries. Like they're in more than just a few Mazdas or something if you don't like the rotary engine don't buy an RX simple as.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 even I am aware of Mazda stopping production of rotary engines but I still like them. Do i think that they should come back into production not necessarily but I do think that they're an interesting engine and the cars that use said engine are fun to drive, yes. You just don't like them because the internet has told you not to like them. If not for the internet telling you they were bad you would probably not care about the rotary engine and focus on whatever car you actually like but because it's profitable to make a RU-vid video that says "why X sucks" you gobble it up anyway. I came here to see if he had anything new to bring to the table about rotary engine discussion and was not surprised when it didn't thus i posted my comment.
@@SomberFireBall Wankel engine... _'Mazda Rotary'_ is a defunct brand name now. Everyone knows these horrible, unreliable Wankel engines suck. Even Mazda now admits this, why are you still in denial?
That would mean you get little to No compression. Since the Apex seals are spring loaded to Push against the Rotorhousings to create compression and allow for it to move and Not instantly Ruin the Rotorhousings surface.
I love the sound of rotaries (because it’s mandatory) but I think a v8 or i6 beats it in almost every way. Reliability, price, v8 has better sound, both can be much faster, more hp, etc
If some car manufacturer were to make a lightweight sportscar with a 700hp rotary engine, and good chassis, it would most likely beat every other car on the nurburgring.
The other reason why the Wankel-engine might make a comback as a range extender (besides its small size/weight) is because while it was very inefficient as a main engine with constantly changing rpm and torque demand, it can run much more efficient when designed for and kept at a specific and constant rpm and torque -> which it could as a generator/range extender.
That's completely false. Wankel engines have repeatedly proven to be completely unsuitable for use in generator/APU applications. Wankel engines are extremely noisy, dirty, have horrible fuel efficiency, produce more carbon emissions and are completely incompatible with the entire "Green Energy" concept of EVs. The Concept of Range Extenders was a topic of interest among several automobile manufacturers a decade ago but has been completely abandoned. Not a single manufacturer has ever offered a vehicle with a range extender as standard equipment and only one, (BMW i3) was offered as an option but was discontinued. Mazda completely abandoned development of production Wankel engines in May 2009, no new prototypes have been made since the 16X program in 2007 and was cancelled on May 15th 2009. The Mazda MX30 has been available in selected markets since the 2021 model year and will only be available in a 100% plug-in battery EV or a mild series hybrid powered by 2.0 liter 4-Cylinder Skyactiv G engine. Any questions?
Babying a rotary is bad for the Apex seals you want to warm them up completely make sure the entire engine is the same Temp and then run it out to Red line a few times
@@djjaysky9071Old wives tales... nothing you can do will ever make a Wankel engine reliable. The "Italian Tune-up" only applies to carburated engines, if your car is fuel injected? Revving it up will not fix your problem, only a new engine will.
I have often wondered what might have happened if the Sarich Orbital Engine had gotten the investment to be put into production cars. Both the rotary and the orbital concepts had many advantages but ultimately bean counters decided to play it safe and put investment money into conventional engines rather than more risky designs.
If Liquid Piston rotary were implemented to production for next Mazda RX it could theoretically speaking every previous problen commonly found on rotary is gone
Even though rotaries are connected to Mazda, it's still a german invention... by Felix Heinrich Wankel (which is why it's called the Wankel Motor). Funniest thing about the "Wankel Motor" is I think, that "Wankel" in german means "to tumble" - so the inventor's name was basically perfectly describing the movement of the piston I guess :-) 787B has still the most magnificent sound of any rotary i know though
on top of that, mazda had a hydrogen powered (as in, hydrogen combustion instead of gasoline) RX8 variant (JDM only). it was not as powerful as the gasoline variant, but it only produced NOx emissions, and basically no CO/CO2. I think there might be some ways to tweak the design to burn less oil, and then add a cat that specifically filters NOx, and you'd have a "clean" combustion engine. if it's just meant to power some electric motors and recharge batteries, even better as you don't feel the lack of torque and horsepower, or whatever (and it's not gonna guzzle fuel any more).
@@sandervanderkammen9230 yes, but that was just a 13B running on hydrogen and directly powering the rear wheels (through a gearbox). also hydrogen refill stations were basically non-existent as well. things can/have changed a lot since then. also some of it's shortcomings are less significant when it's just charging a battery.
That statement reveals a shocking lack of knowledge about the development history of the Wankel engine.. All of the 26 original Wankel KKM licensees have all come to the same conclusion... that the Wankel engine is inherently flawed in its fundamental concept and is inferior to the reciprocating engines it failed to replace.
Mazda's choice to inject engine oil into the combustion chamber is the biggest problem the rotary faces; I have a naturally aspirated 13b in my plane that has run the equivalent of well over 100k miles (600 hours) mostly at full throttle; with no issues. I removed the crankcase oil injection system and mix 2-cycle oil in the fuel at one ounce per gallon. Horror stories come from tweakers trying to boost the engine to 20psi and don't understand the needs for fueling and timing in a rotary.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 WOW! You have to be monumentally stupid to not realize what massive improvement premixing 2 stroke oil in with gas tank makes on the life cycle of a rotary everything they say about rotary haters is true!
@@jaylongee11 *PROVE IT!* You clearly have no formal education or professional experience on this topic and are not qualified to speak inteligently regarding engine lubrication if you can't read the label on a bottle of motor oil.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 You're dense🤣.. You haven't a clue what your talking about, you haters rarely ever do. What the o.p is saying is engine oil in a Mazda rotary is drawn from the oil sump by an oil metering pump and injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex, corner and side seals. This oil has to be mineral oil or specific rated as most Synthetic oils create too much carbon when burnt which makes seals jam and your engine loses compression, but mineral oil doesn't perform aswell in performance applications as compared to synthetic. The oiling system from stock can also suffer failure, it also isn't very good at dispersing lubricant evenly throughout the combustion chamber. Another issue is it draws oil from the sump which gets dirty, can contain contaminants, fuel dillution aswell as needing the engine oil level to be constantly monitored so as to not run out of oil. Now, to easily resolve all of these issues in one foul swoop, you just delete the oil metering pump and blank the oil injectors off on the housings. Obviously you still need to lubricate the combustion chambers so you add two-stroke oil into the fuel tank. This also means you can run any oil as you are no longer burning sump engine oil.
Brian, horror stories are from poor tuning regardless of if they're boosted or not. Especially if they're running brittle apex seals. You can build reliable 13b's to take alot of boost without any issue's, problems occur on poor builds or people who have no idea🤣
If I had the money I'd probably buy an RX8 (I kinda like its design) and replace the rotary with the Mazda 6 MPS' 2.3l i4 engine, which is just as powerful, but a lot more reliable
These engines are just so beautiful and lovely and light. Just that once you get down to the details nearly everything about them sucks compared to a normal piston engine: - by definition, some significant portion of the power from combustion is pushing it in the wrong direction - the flame from ignition has to travel along the direction of rotation from the spark plug and this makes combustion inefficient - the compression ratio is limited by the shape of the Wankel and relatively low compared to a piston engine that is mainly limited by the auto-ignition point of the compressed fuel - the Dorito shaped piston needs sealing gaskets at 4 sides, making leaks more common - the ignition and input stroke are on opposite sides of the engine, so it always heats up a lot more on one side, making proper sealing even harder as it doesn't expand uniformly The vibration thing is a big plus though of this design. Actually I think they mainly make sense for motor cycles, strangely enough they haven't really been used for this.
The Wankel engine was invented by a motorcycle manufacturer... NSU Motorenwerkes GmbH. Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, BSA, Norton, MZ, Van Veen all developed or manufactured Wankel engine bikes. The Wankel engine has no actual weight or power advantages in motorcycle applications and is more expensive than reciprocating engines. The Wankel engine's poor torque characteristics and lack of engine braking effect made them very unpopular with motorcycle enthusiasts.
You have to be monumentally stupid to pour the wrong oil down the wrong filler hole... please stop spreading lies and misinformation about about Wankel engines.
What would the benefit be as a range extender? The priority for a range extender would be fuel economy while maintaining the low battery level at a steady/ low RPM. So not really a rotary's thing.
NOTHING, while some manufacturers looked at range extenders as a way to compensate for poor battery performance decades ago the automobile industry has completely abandoned range extenders.
The Wankel engine is the absolute antithesis of the Efficient "Green" Energy concept. The Wankel is noisy, dirty, inefficient and unreliable... the exact opposite of what attracts anyone who is interested in buying electric cars.
Duh you gotta rev the fk out of it high revs very little torque even then, but you can get crazy power out of them with very little money and they are good a turning.
Here's the problem with the whole "engine as range extender" concept: it defeats the whole purpose of electric cars. In both Europe and USA, according to current laws, you would be able to sell a car with a thermal engine, regardless of how big it is, after 2035. So investing in technology that will be obsolete in 13 years is beyond idiotic, it makes ZERO sense. Or you have to bet that the current laws will be overridden, which is also stupid but perhaps less (since the law itself is retarded, but that's besides the point).
Excellent comment, very accurate and informative. Range Extenders are a hard sell and make little sense, they are in conflict with the entire concept and sales pitch that sells EVs.
Growing up, I was in love with the RX-7. My heart literally skipped a beat the first time I saw an FD, and I eventually bought a 91 GXL FC. It was a great car, but yeah the rotary engine (as cool as it is) does actually kinda suck. Wankel's engine concept is unique and MaZDa's execution is also very well thought out. Its just that the rotary engine's pros dont outweigh a traditional piston engine.
Had a 85 RX-7 in high school. The engines are TINY for the power output. I wanted to get a 93 and was saving up and then the fast and furious came out. Prices doubled. I hate that franchise.
Most people who own rx7s delete the system that consumes the engines motor oil and move to premixing. Premixing is where you add 2 stroke oil to your gas everytime you fill up. This is done to lubricate the apex seals and depending on what 2 stoke oil you use it can also brake down carbon.
@@Buffalobills-fh2be I just fill it up with 2 stroke oil and let the oil injection do its thing, i incresed the flow rat and just add and go no oil changes required as i make it work more like a 2 stroke.
you missed a few things. first off the 1.3 liter figure comes from that they only count 1 face of each rotor. and remember its heyday was the early 90s back then you couldn't just ask the internet what the displacement figure actually meant for rotaries and get an answer in 30 seconds. it was extremely arcane information because mazda sure as hell didn't want to admit to the world that they were pulling such shenanigans. It took a full decade to get the answer to that question from the time i first wondered about it. second is the 9000rpm redline. what is it that spins to 9000rpm? well it's not the rotors, it's the output shaft which spins 3 times for every one revolution of the rotors. and because it's the rotors that are the things that are doing the work that 3 times as fast eccentric shaft does so with 1/3 the torque. it's called a rotary engine not an eccentric shaft engine. the truth is that it's a 3.9 liter motor that redlines at 3000rpm. that's why it sucks.
Can confirm. Had an stock RX8 with 20B Rotary Engine. Very slow, drings too much fuel for to less power, and drinks too much oil as well. Sound is incredible if you change catalysator and exhaust, and intake. The inside is quite nice and timeless. But the engingereally kinda sucks.
I have a 2006 RX-8 that I purchased as a weekend sports car, and I absolutely love it. It is, and will always remain, a cult classic. It always starts, never floods, will rev to almost 10,000, and looks and sounds amazing the whole time..
@@nerdly44 The RX8 was the worst sedan Mazda ever made... 3 billion dollars failure that bankrupted Mazda and killed off the entire RX brand for good. You don't seem to know anything about cars or the RX8... doubtful that you are even old enough to drive a car kid.
Uh.... The comparison of the Bugatti with the Rotary was really bad for HP/L . Buggati intentionally makes their engine huge for reliability. And I don't mean like get some extra years. They've said they want Veyrons to still roam the earth in 50-100 years and that's why the engines are huge. A better example would've been koenigsegg wich cram all the power they can out of engines.
Damn, $2,600 for a rebuild sounds cheap as fuck. Where I'm at, the best quote I got to rebuild a 331 hemi from my magnum was 4 grand. I ended up dropping a 372 from the srt in it instead since it cost about the same.
I just want to say... I get so mad at people who say "bRo tHaT rOtArY sUcKs oN rElIaBiLiTy!!!1!" Any engine in the world can be reliable... Just some require more maintenance and deeper pockets. That said I love rotarys... They sound exceptional and they are REALLY good in Motorsport. And my God the moment when they get on the 7000+ RPM 😩
That comment reveals a shocking lack knowledge regarding engine reliability. Wankel engines are inherently unreliable and less durable than reciprocating engines. This is an irrefutable fact that you cannot deny.
While it is true that Mazda no longer has any factory motorsports programs, The wankel and rotary engines were so sucessful in motorsports that they were soon banned (For example the 787b)
Please stop spreading lies and misinformation about Wankel engines. The Mazda 787b was never banned. Mazda announced it was retiring the 787b at the end of 1991 season back in 1990.
I believe the advertised capacity is misleading. Mazda calculate the capacity as the displacement of the rotor at a fixed position. The true capacity is closer to double the advertised.
The true, total displacement is 3 times the so called "tax displacement method" Because the Wankel KKM57 engine requires 1080° degrees of crankshaft rotation of crankshaft to complete the 4-stroke operating cycle we use the 2x conversion formula to establish the displacement at 720° degree of the Otto Cycle.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Comparing to a 4 stroke like this is unfair. That’s how they managed to screw 2 stokes in motor cross, by allowing double capacity 4 strokes to compete.
@@benwilkins2998 But the premise and logic is completely sound, a 250cc 2-stroke displaces the same volume of air every 720° degrees as a 500cc 4-stroke. The Mazda 13B displaces the same volume of air as 2.6 liter Otto engine every 720°.
the true irony is that the rotary was initially designed to have as little moving parts as possible to improve reliability, yet one of the flaws with these Mazdas can be unreliable
The Wankel engine was specifically designed for motorcycles and to be as smooth and lightweight as possible... it has always been a very complex and unreliable design which is why it was never popular and is obsolete today.
The reason rotary engines never really caught on is because sealing internally is hard to do with a rotary engine because of the cylindrical shape of the motor also rotary engines are not that efficient in terms of combustion alot of the fuel ends up coming out the exhaust similar to a flathead motor
