Why Smaller Wheels in Front? | Engels Coach Shop 

No idea why the algorithm brought me here, but I thoroughly enjoyed your presentation. Thanks!

I just had my 90th birthday. I’m still learning by watching these videos.

i really appreciate your style and volume of music as you show the work in progress. So many channels feature music that replaces the sounds of work and is too loud. You have it just right.

The trick with leaving material in the cut with the router is genius. Never know why I never thought of it. Thanks again for the lesson!

Love that trick with the router that's pretty good

Among the 100 cars I've complelty restored in nearly 40 years, one was a 1936 12 cylinder Cadillac sedan convertible. It had a switch on the dash which controlled ride. It controlled a disk which allowed oil in the shocks to operate freely for a smooth ride and as the holes got smaller, less compliance for better handling. Next time you marvel at your new BMW, remember, most of that cool stuff has been done long before.

Observing the aesthetics , engineering , material fits and general corrected alignments. ...A KEEN HAND HERE..!

The Ackerman steering explanation reminded me of something I original saw on a British film called Zulu set at the time of the Zulu Wars in the 19th century. In the film they were overturning large horse drawn flat wagons and I noticed a metal crank and some sort of gearing at the rear. The scene was no more than a fraction of a second but it lead me to making enquiries. It was in fact a rear wheel steering device something that most of us thought the Japanese car manufacturers invented in the 1990's. Many ideas we think are reasonably modern is wrong and in their own forms were developed long ago by those who built horse drawn carriages and wagons.

Merry Christmas to you and your family, Dave!

At age 73, I still look forward to learning something new, every day. Thanks for sharing the knowledge, and showing us your craftsmanship.

That avocado color refrigerator reminds me of growing up in mobile homes in the 60s. And most had an oven/range and sink to match!

My very first thought before reading and comments or listening to your explanation was .... the smaller wheels allow for more clearance to the wagon frame which in turn allows the front axle to pivot a few degrees more. A large wheel will rub against the frame before a smaller wheel. I never would have thought about the height of the fifth wheel assembly being a factor, but it certainly is in order to keep the frame level.

What a piece of work is a man.

Thanks as always. Merry Christmas to you , Diane and your entire family.

When I was a boy wanting to build a go-cart and looking for an old engine, my father told me to build the cart with large wheels in the back and small ones in the front so that it would always go downhill. No engine needed! Happy holidays to all!

The huge amount of craftsmanship in these builds just fascinates me.

Excellent explanation and lesson on the subject. You explained better than my teacher when I attended alignment course

wheel making, axel making, barrel making, and bucket making are just genius. thank you.

I clicked on this because of unbound curiosity. I really appreciate your router technique. Going back in and chiseling out the islands is a great way of handling that kind of work. Thank you for demonstrating that.

I'll never forget my friend put a set of pram wheels back to front big on front and small on rear. Going to my house that had a quiet bit of road a guy stopped us. "I'll give you a tip. The big wheels are supposed to be on the rear and the small on the front." We did this so it would hit the ramp better. Always trying different wheel setups. That buggy had evil handling and my friend crashed it badly and spectacularly. Ackerman is important. Looking back when I served my time as a mechanic I realised the error. 🤭 I love your channel I'm into old coach work and veteran/vintage cars.

I'm always amazed at the craftsmanship of woodworkers and wheelwrights, during the 1700-1800's, who built all these wagons and carriages by hand, without power tools. There are still some out there today that honor that tradition, but it is a trade I fear will be lost in time for future generations to appreciate.

I never knew that I wanted the answer to this question. Thanks!

This is a great example why kids nowadays need to take math seriously. They say you don't use it, but just like you I use trig & geometry everyday. Especially when I have to install a cabinet sign or channel letters on a roof or angled facade. I have to determine plumb and figure out the size of pieces to cut at the shop, this saves hours of work. I'm going to have to show this to my daughter, she has that mindset where she hated math but it's so important!

I watch your vids on a separate monitor next to my desk as I work on my Database and Application software upgrades and development. It is so relaxing and helps me focus when hearing the router and your commentator. Not joking. It's super interesting too, but not distracting. Thank you.

My father, born in 1901, explained to me that wagons used to haul heavy loads had large diameter wheels to make it easier of the horses to pull as Dave says at 4:25. My dad added that these wagons were often built so that the front wheels would go under the box as can be seen in the picture at 3:45. This allowed them to turn almost in their own length. The assistant would take the bridle of the lead horse, pull the horse around after the coach was hitched, and lead it straight away to turn the coach. Check the Stagecoach article in Wikipedia and note how intensely they modified the box to allow the freedom of motion to the front wheels so that they could maneuver in the enclosed yard of an inn. Note also that all of the contemporary images in that article show TWO men working the coach. That second man is the assistant. This same design applies to "royal" coaches where the front wheels have complete freedom to turn. The box Dave talks about is much easier to build, and thus much less costly. That is why this design was reserved for the rich, and for commercial vehicles. The Wikipedia article Coach (carriage) shows a half-dozen photographs of coaches that illustrate the total freedom the front wheels had to turn. If the assistant rode the coach they were a "footman", but if they rode the left-lead horse they were a "postilion." I watch these because I am in complete agreement with Dave's desire to preserve how this work was done. My father was the State Historian while I was growing up. That job supported our family. With that background I am delighted by what Dave is doing with these videos. Dad told us a lot about life on a ranch in southern Oregon between 1900 and 1925. That life is fading out of memory. They heated only the kitchen in winter. As a teenager Dad cut all of the firewood during the summer, using a hand saw. Purchasing coal was too costly. They had no phone, nor electricity, though they were available in town, three miles away. Dad rode his horse to school in town from first grade to high school graduation. His family was the first in that town to buy a car in 1916. His uncle did not like the car, "With the horse drawn wagon, I could go to town every Friday, have some beer, and then lie down in the back and wake up in the barn. The horse knew the way. Can't do that with a car."

I always learn from your videos. Generally, like this one I learn a great deal. Thanks!

Soon we will know the transition from horse drawn buggy to horseless carriage! We know all about how the front wheels turn! My first push car had the 5th wheel type front axel when I was 10 years old! I pushed my younger brother up the sidewalk and he would coast down. What fun! What memories! HH to all! Thanxz from your friend in. NW Colorado.

Dave, as I read thru these comments, I realize that there are many people who are way more educated in what you show us than I am. The one thing in common is that we all agree on, please keep showing us the the awesome projects you do! There is no one one I know that is a craftsman like you, and I learn something new every video! Merry Christmas to you and your family! Tom in Ceres

Love the speed of the video when working , just right.

VERY interesting. I, too, wondered why the front wheels were smaller. The explanation is so logical I should have figured it out by property examining one of the buggies. Thank you, sir, for such clarity.

Thanks Again!! I used to think there must have been high tech engineering to calculate how the outer wheel, in a turn, needed to move to account for the inner wheel's smaller radius. Then I later learned about Ackerman and the complicated became simpler. I'll never live long enough to learn about all the stuff that is interesting to me!! Good Work, Dave!!!

Hello from Yorkton, Saskatchewan, Canada. Thanks for sharing your great video’s please keep them coming

As I drive round my native England, I often think of you. I occasionally see reminders of old wheelwright workshops in country villages, and I try to imagine the days when each village had a wheelwright. Now sadly you are the only one I know about (I realise you are a great deal more than that as well!). I hope there are some in England, but I don’t know them.

I really enjoy watching a craftsman ply their skills, I hope you are passing your knowledge and skills on so it isn’t lost to time

I find it amazing to learn all the little secrets that went into these modes of transport back in the time of our ancestors.

I have never been so mesmerized by a video before. Your skills and craftsmanship are exceptional. Thank you.

Merry Christmas for you and yours.....A tip for you...The second axle where you used the bosch router { I have one just like it..Have only replaced the brushes once in 30 years} .... Once you have the depth and just some nibs left...Take the router and clean the entire cut out .... Working from Center outward in both directions.. It will come out smooth.. no hammer and chisel.. or rasp..save you at least one step... My Best Jim

"Unsprung weight" or the ability of any 4 wheeled *truck* or "wagon" to support itself. Before the introduction of mass produced steel in the United States the only item available for ahem "common everyday use" ahem was wrought iron. The front wheels must be smaller in diameter to keep the vehicle "on the level" with the turn-buckle absolutely...but also in the process of turning and this being before vulcanized rubber and "sidewall" the amount of "force"(torque) being applied to any outside wheel as said wagon be turned was truly awesome. Having a smaller wheeler up front means in theory anyways a much stronger wheel to help in the counter-balance. If you wanted to "after market" these items you could in fact apply a hydraulic braking and suspension system to the front assemblage thus "pressurizing" the control surface and improving the ride quality and durability by an order or magnitude. The other option is obviously to add honeycombed rubber on all four wheels adding enormous amounts of tractive force plus much greater durability to the product. "Reduce your horsepower rating from 2 to 1."

I used to think of these coaches as little better than rough carts with little innovation behind them. I am always thankful for the lessons that you share that show how little I know of the skillful generations that lived before us. Hey, Merry Christmas you and you family. And Lord bless you all in the coming year.

Come on, I can tell you've got Buck Owens and Merle Haggard playing when you're working. Very nice place you have designed for yourself to work in. Have a nice day.

Love to watch you mix the new with the old and imagine how much harder it was in the days these were made with all done by hand. It might seem like your restorations and rebuilds take a long time but when this was the main form of transport each wagon would have taken longer since everything would have been done by hand and using the then current technology to weld rims and such people never think of how our current technology is such a time saver in these sort of ways but many push our technology to do more and make it seem like we are no more well off than in older times.

7:00 he leaves the middle uncut so the tool is fully supported while he routes out the edges, saving it for last

Another good educational video! I understand it you consider suggestions? 1. A video or two that teaches shop work and suggestions. 2. The proper use and care of files and rasps. I took shop in high school and it still serves me well today. (Decades later.) And I have been an arborist since the '80s. Lots of saw and chain saw work. Including sharpening of course. This takes file work. And if you can, please introduce your watchers to the feather file. It used to be more common. But you can still get them from Stihl, and a few places online. Thanks, Michael.

Roman travelling coaches dated to about 400BC used pivoting front axles, and referred to it as "old building method" even then. Syrians likely used pivoting axles before 1000BC.

A very skilled wood worker. The kind of fella you could really learn a lot from and have a couple of cool ones when the job is done.

I love watching Dave and his amazing precision, and hearing his calming voice. plus I only watch craftsmen that have all their fingers. Merry Christmas to Engels Coach Shop.

Another great tutorial. Thank you

Nice work Mr. Engels

You know things are getting serious when the 7 inch angle grinder comes out! Beautiful work!

Thanks for the information! As soon as you said it, it made everything make sense!

Actually, an English doctor named Erasmus Darwin designed, built and tested this system in the 1750's. He built 2 carriages with his new design and ran them for many miles during his practice. It must have been the complexity or material technology that prevented this design from becoming standard usage. I can imagine that the linkages needed to steer 2 independent hubs while relying on the movement of the horses would have been complex and expensive.

Beautiful work as always Dave. One suggestion, you might try a router with a base that is not round, instead one that is elongated well off the center on one side. I have a couple such bases, (one that has a very long base and one that is only say 8" longer on one side. You can make them out of acrylic or even buy an aftermarket base that is such. I've put them on two of my 6 or 8 routers. This allows the router to never "tip" toward the work being routed (which is easy to do when the center line of the base is right over the router bit. With the base extended on one side, then you wouldn't worry about that and you could have routed all those spots without having to clean up the pillars with a chisel. Just do it as you did, but then the final step would be to start at one side and with the base in advance, go all the way to the other. Of course what you did works too, but I really like the offset bases. It makes a very secure base.

Amazing that such a small angle helps makes everything work properly.

Great explanation, and your craftsmanship is superb!!

Loved the way you sculpted the shaft with the electric sander - ancient and modern together with great skill.

This is a fascinating and wonderfully made video. I have no idea how it turned up in my feed, but sometimes "the algorithm" makes interesting decisions. This should also have tags like "engineering," "artisanal (despite being overused)," "history," and more. If more vids were done this well, then there'd be more well done videos out there. When I saw the thumbnail, I thought it would have something to do with moving the center of mass to allow for larger loads in the rear. Poor me, I had to learn something new instead ;-). It looks like you wrote your own subtitles, because they were actually correct. Thanks, that makes a huge difference to me and my ears.

Love the farrier's rasp, wore out a few of them in my younger days. Never had the pleasure of using one on ash.

Hi Dave ☺, happy new year to you and your's, loved the way you left those islands of wood for the router to run over, pure genius, thanks for another interesting video, stay safe mate, best wishe's for 2022, Stuart Uk.

GREAT VIDEO, TELL EVERYBODY HELLO, SEE YOU NEXT FRIDAY...

I wonder what power tool they liked best back in the day, Bosch, Makita, Milwaukee, or DeWalt? Just kidding. Your craftsmanship is tops.

As always, thanks Dave for your masterclass of this week! Warm greetings from the Netherlands, Bram

Happy Friday Diane and Dave

It is just awesome to see you at work. not many craftsmen left in the world who can do what you do.

It's very interesting to learn these concepts, and then see how they progressed- through the steam tractors, then gas tractors and automobiles. Now there are so many different angles and geometries in the front end of a car, it's mind blowing.

Thanks so much for another year of excellent and most informative video's Have a great Christmas. Keep safe and healthy. All the best fae Scotland.

Thanks for all the info you share. US Postal delivery trucks have the front wheels about 1 foot closer together than the rear ones. This is to improve the turning radius so they can get around parked cars and snow banks and get to mail boxes easier. It also makes it harder to drive in snow because they are making four sets of tracks rather than two.

You should use the AKERMAN ROUTER.... ThnX for the informative video!

Love this craft and your craftsmanship! Thank you for sharing and taking us all on your journey!

Great episode! Informative and nice to watch. Great all around editing too! It never felt like there was any filler footage. 👍👍👍

15:16 amazing explanation 20:11

Another entertaining and informative Friday. I was most impressed by your technique for routing areas which are wider than the router base. Thank you for sharing. Have a great holiday and stay safe.

That little trick with the router is awesome, I'm definitely going to use it. Liked and Subbed 👍👍

Great to see those hands at work showing the time and skill required to form those axles, there are no five minute jobs here , thanks Dave

*- Finally I got to be the first Thumbs Up your work, Dave. Merry Christmas to you and yours.*

I feel smarter now. It all makes perfect sense. Thanks, Dave!

This is all very interesting I was not aware of this style frame. Thank you!

I like the router technique. The guide clamps for the boundaries.. And I never thought about going down in steps like this. I sort of just set the router to my target depth and go at it all freehand. and it is always terrible for me. This way seems to be a lot more precise and quality work. And the vacuum on while working, is so obvious. I can't believe I never thought of all these things. I also like how you leave those sort of bridges of un-routed bits to hold the router face plate until you are all set to finish the channel area. I am not a wood working type, but the one time in every few years when I need to go route something it has always been a disappointing experience for me as the quality and outcome never is what I wanted. But thank you for your excellent demonstration of how to router properly here :)

I remember when my dad and I were cleaning out our barn that there were as many woodworking tools as blacksmithing tools. It seems that my great-grand-fathers also did a lot of wagon repairs in addition to shoeing horses. Later on my great-grand-father also sold stationary steam engines made in England while my grand-father worked on "modern" autos and trucks. We sold or gave away these tools to people who repaired wagons and what not. My favorite was a huge billows, my brother and I used like a cannon, we would stuff a wooden peg in it then jump down on the billows to shoot it out quite a distance. My dad gave this billows to a museum in Buffalo along with all the big pottery used in making cider and sauerkraut. I inherited my grand-fathers mechanical ability and became a auto/heavy duty mechanic and never regretted my career choice.

Everything is fascinating in the detail.

Thanks for sharing with us Dave, great job explaining and illustrating. You’re doing a great job with documenting for future generations. Stay safe and keep up the good work and videos. Fred. 🙏🏻🙏🏻👍🏻👍🏻👏🏻👏🏻✋🏻✋🏻

As usual, your video was wonderful! I follow you regularly and I am always amazed at calming your videos. It's better than meditating!

I confess I've not visited your site in some years now. My first reaction to see you working again was, wow you've really taken to the power tools since my last visit. Is this due to time constraints or like myself, the old bones ain't what they used to be and damn these tools do do a good job. On that note, Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you and yours and to you America.

Well l see l am 3 day's late again....But the wind🌬 blew me out your way l see👀.....Thanks very much....!👍🙏

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. We are enriched.

The reason the front wheel is smaller is simple, it drives the generator that recharges the battery and runs lights for the turn signals and brakes -plus powers the heads up display.

*- Again; Successful and good explanations, Dave. The graphics worked easily and well.*

I've always wondered about that. I did figure one part right as you said "tighter steering radius. Thanks! 🤠

Thank you for the explanation. Honestly, never the knew the reason other than, made the turning easier and shorter. Great video as always. Cheers :)

Love the hand tool work. I built a replica of a French Cart used during the Fur Trade of the early 1800s about 25 years ago. I used the line drawings and measurements in The Museum of the FurTrade Qrtrly which Dr. Hanson had found of an original cart in the Smithsonian. I used White Oak for the box and bought 2 wheels and 1 wood axel from an Amish wheel wright in Ohio made from hickory. I took it with me to Living History events and I display it on my front lawn on the 4th of July. It resides in my garage when not in use. The originals were held together with wood trunnels.

Have u wondered about the whl arrangements of steam locomotives? Like 2-6-2, 4-6-2 or even 4-8-4 or 2-8-8-2? The requirements for these monsters r a bit diff from the buggies only pulling light loads for a buggy vs. heavy loads on steel rails. My experience building a soap box car when i was a kid: If the frnt whls r tiny, it'll be a night mare to drive. Just a little steering at hi speed would make a sudden dangerous turn going down hill. And yes, a small pebble can knock the entire cart upside down. I had a pair of smaller 5th whls up front and i pivot it w my feet. But i don't think it matters if the rear whls were same small size. I would have the same problem coming down that steep hill. Coming back to the question of why small whls up front: It's a similar concept for the steam locomotives. The driver whls r very large. Like 80"D vs. the pony whls of 36" for a typical passenger engine (all whls r smaller for freight stm locos, due to pulling heavy loads vs. hi speed req of the psngr engines). The smaller pony whls make turnings easier. Actually, the pony truck has levers attached to the front driver axle for the pony whls to add tension against the rail side on a turn to guide the engine chassis into and out of a curve. And, at the same time, the pony truck is getting some of the engine weight allocated to keep the truck down. The basic locomotive's chassis design is of the Three-Point system. I think the horse carriages for a luxurious version has both the latitudinal and longitudinal equalization as well as springing for the creature comforts, just like the steam engines do. Both the Fireman and Engineers would get scared and be tardy other- wise, late on deliveries of either their passengers or the merchant goods/US Mail. Your '5th whl' wasn't quite clear to me but i figure it's about the steering bar making arcs for turning. Unlike the rail track restricted locos, a horse buggies can make a very very tight U-turn to go backwards where as a steam loco requires a minium turing radius of several long city block length. Or, it can just set it's Walschaerts or Stephenson's gear into reverse. So if the stm loco does many reverses at hi spds, it has that rear truck w smaller whls (unpowered) to guide it into n out of curves, like 2-6-2 etc. But, for a switcher (or shunter in Brit terms), the stm engine doesn't want any front or rear trucks. It wants all of the engine wt onto the med sized driver whls (like 48"D or 51"D typically) so she can pull more freight and heavy coaches on sharp curved and rough track (the chassis equalization is still being used to compensate the horrible overused and less frequently maintained rough train yrds tracks). And since the switcher doesn't go 80mph but 10 or 20mph at the most, it doesn't need this guiding trucks at the frnt or rear. And, since it'll b slow moving but needs fast acceleration n deceler- ation, it wants smaller diam. driver whls as u know, smaller whls take less effort to turn vs. the big 80" (6.7'D) psgr driver whls. Hmmm, i shoulda had 6' whls at the rear and proportionally bigger than the 4" front steering whls. So, like a locomotives, to make a buggy go backward, it doesn't need to do the u turn on a dirt road. Have a rear seat too w rear bar harnes ses (i don't know buggy terms) built-in, and tell the horses to unhook themselves, walk around the side to the back and hook themselves up. The driver wld just walk on the buggy to the rear, a mere 12' short walk!!! Thx 4 ur video!

May You and Your Family Have A Merry Christmas And A Happy and Healthy New Year

I came over from the car world and the kids used to do this in the 70s. Pro stock look they called it. 😋

Having bought an old wagon from a barn, I had the desire to copy the individual parts and get new metal where needed, but failed to ever undertake that endeavor. I ended up coating it with a thick paint to slow the decay. But it's really cool to see you do the copy work to the new wood and keep the image of the old wagon, copied into the new.

Thank you again for the video and I'm still loving your work, Dave.

Thanks for putting the answer up front. Just a passing interest when I saw the title. I immediately figured tighter turning radius but hadnt thought about the steering mechanism and the use of a fifth wheel. Very interesting, especially since my name is Wayne which is derived from wagon maker.

Very good video clip. Very instructive and entertaining.

Thank you for the videos they are good to watch ! Like seeing the old restored !

It would be cool to go back in time and record one of the old buggy/wagon/carriage shops and see how many people they having doing what Dave does by himself.

Great explanation of why the smaller wheel in front. I noticed in some of the more extreme smaller wheels, they're small enough to go under the wagon body. I was surprised by the intricacies of your carving on the axles - I always thought they were just a pretty straight beam, but definitely a lot more complicated.

Dave, If you clamped a piece of scrap to each side of the axle with their top edge flush they would support the router and allow you to route the entire area. If you raised one of them above the top surface of the axle the router would run at an angle and make the taper that you need.