Ever wondered why some languages like Arabic have no p sound and others like Japanese and Vietnamese have a relative lack of p's? Watch this amateur linguistics video! #language #languages #linguistics
As a Japanese I'd never realized that native words in my own language don't have P except when it's altered H, until you pointed it out. Wow, linguistics is cool!
@@mucpougaming6092 paizuri is from oppai + suri, double /pp/ never becoming /h/ in the history of Japanese which should explain why there is an initial /p/ there.
@@ryuko4478 im aware and thats why i think paizuri should be heralded as a special and unique japanese word, for no reason other than linguistically :D
On the other hand, Slavic languages have [p] in many native words, but rarely have [f] in them (except interjections), [f] can occur either in loanwords or as a contraction of consonant clusters, usually [x] (or [h]) + [v]. The opposite process also occurs, especially in dialects: words with [f] are pronounced instead with [xv].
You are right. I've heard that there is not any Serbian native word that starts on F. That's maybe not true, but the truth is that [p] is much more used than [f]. Before the name Filip was written and pronounced as Pilip. The sound [x] is even less frequent than [f] and [xv] is very often replaced with [f] in dialects. Instead of "hvala" (thanks) we usually say "fala" and instead of "uhvatiti" (to catch) we say "uvatiti" or "ufatiti" (both are not correct, but many people say like that) also "kafa" (coffee) was "kahva" before (muslims in Bosnia still say "kahva"). What is funny is that some people say "hvaliti" instead of "faliti" (which is correct form and means "to miss"), because they think "faliti" is incorrect form the same as "fala" and "fatati".
@@amabarbigrl wait a second, we have a word in Arabic قهوة, which is pronounced /qahwa/, are you telling me it went like qahwa > kahwa > kahva > kaxva > kafa > kafe which is so similar to English/French cafe?
@@xXJ4FARGAMERXx I'm no expert in Arabic, but according to Wiktionary, the etymology is 'disputed', qahwa is its own word. By cafe do you mean كافيه ? If so, then that supposedly comes from the French word, and the similarity with qahwa is supposedly just coincidental.
I think it's the same in Georgian 🇬🇪, which lacks a /f/ sound but has an aspired and an unaspired /p/ sound. The aspired /p/ is used to represent /f/, e.g., my name Florian would be ფლორიან (phlorian). Btw, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not an expert of Georgian.
I think the consonant p was lacking in the original Afro-Asiatic, for that Soomaali and `Arabic still retain! It is the f that turned to p, rather than the p turning to f!
@@samantarmaxammadsaciid5156 I'm not an expert of this, but what I can find p has been reconstructed into both Proto-Afroasiatic and Proto-Semitic. Is there a competing reconstruction you are familiar with?
Here's a list of things I wanted to point out: @0:25 that is correct for modern loans in Modern Standard Arabic but loaning foreign [p] as /f/ in Arabic is not uncommon historically or modernly in an informal manner, many Malay words in the Arabian peninsula are loaned with a /f/ when they have a /p/ in Malay, also historically Ancient Greek /pʰ/ was loaned as /f/ but unaspirated /p/ was loaned as /b/, with some exceptions like Παλαιστῑ́νη /palai̯stǐːnɛː/ being loaned as /filastˤiːn/. @1:45 it's not "pronounced [p] out of convenience" it's that historical /Qp/ [pp] and /Np/ [mp] where not affected by the sound changes that lenited [p] to [ɸ] to [h], similar to how /hu/ isn't pronounce [ɸɯ̟ᵝ] "out of convenience" but rather than original [ɸu] never shifted away from it's original sound because the roundedness (whether protruded or compressed) for the /u/ preserved its bilabial nature, Japanese speakers are capable of saying /Nh/ in compounds like in 半々 /haNhaN/ "half-half" and /Qh/ [hh] in loans like /maQha/ [mahha] for "Mach (number/speed)". @video the overall video lacks looking into why *specifically* [p] gets lost, because all of the cardinal stops ([p t k b d g]) can lenite to sounds like [f θ x v ð ɣ], the thing is it's very frequent for specifically [p] and [g] to be dropped out of the cardinal six, suggesting that there is a tendency to avoid voiceless sounds at the front of the mouth and voiced sounds at the back of the mouth (further hinted at by the extreme rarity of [ɢ] compared to [q]). it should also be noted that with Arabic specifically the story might be more complex, while a very popular theory posits that Arabic only recently before the Islamic conquests lost its /p/ there's actually little evidence for that, Arabic *might* have not had any /p/ sounds for thousands of years for all we know, as most Semitic languages lack a /p/ sound (with Hebrew, Aramaic, and Akkadian being exceptions not the rule!) and many Afro-Asiatic branches also seem to lack a /p/ in many of its languages that might mean that the proto-language might have not had a /p/ (especially Amazigh, Cushitic, and maybe Chadic), and even in the languages that do have /p/ the rest of the labial series looks uneven, for example Middle Egyptian had this /m p β f w/ for it's labials, compared to Arabic /m b f w/, and Proto-Amazigh /m (b) β f w/.
Totally agree with what you said about /p/ in Japanese. A lot of people (textbooks, language teachers) like to explain synchronic sound variations in a language (where a single underlying morphophoneme has different surface forms across different inflectional, derivational forms, etc) by saying "it's easier to pronounce" or "it's more convenient" and stuff... but the real reason for a lot of these variations is actually due to historical sound changes affecting the same sounds differently in different environments.
As a member speaker of one of the Haudenosaunee languages (Mohawk), our language family is known for not having any native labial sounds. When we adopt words in Mohawk we normally convert a -b/p- sounds into -gw-, such as the name “Peter” is some dialects is said as “Kwíte.” Then we covert the -m- sound into either -onw- or -w- such as the name for “Mary it can be said as either “Onwá:ri” or just “Wá:ri.”
Strictly speaking, Japanese does not have an 'F' sound. It has a bilabial fricative, the same sound in Greek that gives us the 'PH' digraph in English being pronounced as 'F'. It's more like an 'F' if you pronounced it with your lips instead of your lips and teeth. In other words, t's a bilabial fricative rather than a labiodental fricative.
I'd say "F sound" can refer to both unvoiced labiodental fricative [f] and unvoiced bilabial fricative [ɸ] so saying that Japanese doesn't have an F sound is a bit wrong or at least misleading (though it's of course fair to note that it's a bit different from typical English F sound).
For what it’s worth, lots of languages that developed f sounds went from /ɸ/ to /f/, like Hebrew and Greek (presumably the reason why phi, which is now pronounced /f/ in Greek, is used for the bilabial fricative). It seems to be a sort of unstable sound that shifts easily - I think Japanese has retained it before /ɯ/ since that vowel is formally pronounced with compressed rounding, which makes /ɸ/ sort of easier than the /h/ (or /ç/) it shifted to before other vowels. Since it’s becoming a separate phoneme in loanwords I wouldn’t be super surprised if in the future it shifts to /f/ - but I’m no linguist or prophet so I’m probably horribly wrong and it’s not going to happen lol
Okay, but another crucial detail is that /p/ is slightly harder to pronounce than other voiceless stops. Basically, for phonetic reasons, the further towards the front of the mouth you go, the harder voiceless stops become; the further towards the back, the harder voiced stops become. Which is why /g/ also has a certain tendency to be lost, and why voiced uvulars are especially rare.
a very similar thing applies with implosives and ejectives, which is why velar and uvular ejectives are most common, and bilabial and alveolar implosives are most common
Thanks for the video! This reminds me: I've always wondered why many Sundanese speakers cannot differentiate p, f, and v. They mostly resort to using /p/ for all of them since it's in their alphabet, which is somehow the opposite of Arabic, Vietnamese, and Japanese.
@@LDaz بعرف اتكلم عربي، ولكن انت تقارن اسم الحرف وليس صوت الحرف، الصوت هو نفسه أو على الأقل مشابه جدا بحيث لا يلزم تمييزه، انما اسم الحرف الانجليزي (إِف) مختلف عن اسم الحرف العربي (فاء أو فا).
Here in my country (Philippines), northern luzonic languages don't have the letter p. Most of the time when the tagalog words use "P", it will become "F" on those Northern Luzonic languages like the "Ibanag Language".
Technically, that wasn't the whole story for Vietnamese; while /pʰ/ did disappear from the language after spirantising to /f/ (likely during the Middle Vietnamese period), that doesn't explain how it lacks /p/ word-initially. Both were likely separate phonemes in Proto-Austroasiatic and Proto-Vietic. Historically, there appeared to be a chain shift in the initials that went somewhat like /p/ > /ɓ/ > /m/ (original *m- stays as /m/) from Proto-Vietic to becoming modern Vietnamese, leading to words like 'bốn' and 'muối' coming from PV *poːnʔ and *ɓɔːjʔ. The same process nearly happened with the dental series as well (via /t/ > /ɗ/ > /n/, where we get 'đẻ' and 'nước' from PV *tɛh and *ɗaːk) but /t/ was preserved as a phoneme from other processes, frequently from the fortition of /s/ > /t/. These changes were applied to Sino-Vietnamese loanwords as well.
It’s also really cool seeing how some older Vietnamese features are preserved in other Vietic languages :0 I don’t know Mường, but I remember the word for nước being like the example you gave, so like “đák,” and also the word for đi in Mường is ty :0 Do you know how I find some comprehensive history of Vietnamese linguistics? My Vietnamese is bad, but it’s okay if that’s all you point me to :0
Ferlus' and Haudricourt's works on Vietnamese and other Mainland SEA languages are great resources; Gong's 'Chinese loans in Old Vietnamese with a sesquisyllabic phonology' is also pretty interesting. I recall reading some considerable corpus of Middle Vietnamese text as well (not the de Rhodes' dictionary), but I haven't been able to find that :(
There is very little info on Japanese language history easily accessible on the web, so I very much appreciate the point about Japanese p shifting to h. There more I learn about phonetics (Japanese or other), the more sense the kana system makes. As a European, the connection between h and b/p has eluded me for a long time as opposed to the other dakuten uses. I think what applies to P also applies to B, which likes to shift to V a lot, at least in European languages. I believe it has done that in all Germanic languages bar High German (compare "to have" vs "haben, "love" vs "Liebe"), in Modern Greek Beta has come to represent a V sound, and I think Castilian Spanish doesn't distinguish at all between B and V?
As for Japanese language history, the English language Wiktionary is a good place to see the evolutions of words. Many common words have etymologies associated with them from which you can see lots of these evolutions, such as the progression from /p*/ (Proto-Japonic) to modern f, e.g. in 人 (hito); I don't know if you speak Japanese, so I can't say if it'll interest you though :) Unfortunately, you're right that there isn't much teaching about the truly ancient Japanese language; mostly just superficial glances at what the language sounded like during more recent periods. That said, the video 日本語の歴史 is certainly an interesting watch if you do speak Jap. Also you're right about b > v, certainly in Spanish many Latin /b/s have turned into /v/s and then been merged into the sound for /b/ again, so b and v are basically the same sound, β. Ain't that interesting how that affects so many languages?
There's a Japanese youtuber named Omizan Sakamoto who had a fun video on using dakuten (which turns unvoiced consonants into voiced consonants in kana) in Latin alphabet. So e.g. instead of D you could use T with a dakuten. I'll give a link to the video in a separate comment (so that this comment doesn't get removed).
@@spaghettiking653 I did. If you're curious you should be able to find it through the title which is "アルファベットに濁点を付けてみた Dakuten: a Japanese diacritic sign".
An interesting opposite of this is korean, which often uses the P sound and even has two different letters for P sounds (ㅃ and ㅍ), all while having no F anywhere in their language or writing system. Loan words like coffee and sofa are written and pronounced with P.
Haha, same in my mother tongue - which is Chechen. We have many loanwords from Russian and we changed all the fs to ps. Examples: confetti -> conpetti, France -> Prance, Finland -> Pinland, federation -> pederation
Now knowing what I know, the question arises as to why the “b” sound was chosen in place of the “p” sound in words adapted into Arabic? Was this just the only choice that would’ve made sense, or is there actually a story behind that choice? Also, this is quite good as an explanation. Very clean and concise as a script. One would even say that this is classroom ready!
Some of us do use a special letter for the p sound: پ (it's also a full letter in Persian and Kurdish), however, it's often substituted for ب (b sound). Same goes for ڤ (v sound, also a full letter in Kurdish) for ف (f sound)
Most languages approximate sounds they lack from foreign loanwords with phonologically close sounds they do have. For example, many languages do not have the 'th' sound, so it is usually approximates either as 's' or 't' and similarly the voiced 'th' sound (in 'this') is approximated either as 'z' ('zis') or 'd' ('dis').
The sound of P definitely exists in classical Arabic but it results either from a hamza crowning or followed up with a fa : (i)'flaTun is pronounced as Platon, or from any voiceless sibilant such as h or s followed with a b : isbania is pronounced as ispania. It is just considered as the result of the combination of other sounds, like sh, ch, sch, sci, which in so many languages have resulted from s + h or s + y merging into one sound. There is no specific letter or letter combination for the zh sound which is but rarely written as such (except in Proper nouns such as Zhivago) but it is very frequently heard in words such as garage, vision.
Hokkien, Hockchow are the only Sinitic languages that retained the original "p" starting in words where it became "f" in other Sinitic languages. For example, 放 is "pang" in Hokkien, "fong" in Cantonese and "fang" in Mandarin. Not only that but it retained the original "h" initial too, for words where it became "f" in other Sinitic languages. For example, 風 is "hong" in Hokkien, "fong" in Mandarin and "fong" in Cantonese. Even the province that the language hailed from, which is 福建. 福建 is "Hokkien" in Hokkien, "Fokkien" in Cantonese and "Fu jian" in Mandarin. *pronunciation may vary across speakers. Mine is based on the way people in my area pronounce these words.
What an awful comment. Your romanization of those languages is such a mess. If you dunno the exact romanization, please use IPA. Also, the middle Chinese initial of 風 is/p/, not /h/. The reason why most min languages pronounce it as /h/ is, that most Sinitic languages underwent the /p/ to /f/ sound change while min does not, when min languages later import the 風pronounciation from mainstream Chinese, they could not pronounce the /f/, so they mimic it as /h/.
pirahã is the portuguese name for the language, although it is my understanding that the language has very small vowel inventory only if the analysis ignores the lengthiness and nasalisation distinctions. (But. it has been a while since i've researched it, so, citation needed, lol)
This phonemic shift away from P is super interesting considering it happens in so many different languages! One language that i didnt see being mentioned in the comments is Kannada. A lot of native Old Kannada words underwent the phonemic shift from P to H directly (with no F in the middle i think?). Which is why when other dravidian languages have similar words starting with P, Kannada has it starting with H. Examples include- Milk - pāl(u) in Tamil/Telugu vs hālu in Kannada The number 10 - pattu in Tamil vs hattu in Kannada Pig - pandi in Telugu vs handi in Kannada Name - peyar/pēru in Tamil/Telugu vs hesaru in Kannada and so on... However, kannada keeps the letter p in words that it borrows from sanskrit (and there are a lot of words it borrows from sanskrit) so the phoneme is still pretty common in the language. It's a very interesting phenomenon!
In the case of kannada it might be due to the change in script which could have caused confusion among the people. Then the confusion was normalised. Then it got standardized.
I first wondered why in the Cameroonian language Éwondo "French", "français" is "plési". Eventually I got it: The letter "f" is substituted by "p", "r" substituted by "l", the nasalized "an" is substituted by plan "e" and the accent is shifted to the first syllable. Their word for "German", "ndjaman", is more comprehensible.
It’s so fascinating and makes so much sense that the Japanese writing systems reflect this as well! For example the character は, it is a devoiced consonant sound, but when you add this mark ば a “ducted” it becomes a voiced sound. HA becomes voiced as BA. Then lastly the plosive mark (don’t know the technical name) can be added ぱ to turn HA into PA. This mark indicates the sound is a plosive sound and requires a larger amount of air to make the plosive noise with your lips.
Hi, I speak Syriac Aramaic and Arabic and would like to add an information regarding Arabic. It seems that Arabic has dropped the letter P because it abandoned a Semitic feature that we call in Syriac as (the Qushai and Rukakh) which means (hard and lean -sounds-) this feature exists in 6 letters : B - G - D - K - P - T These 6 letters have 2 pronunciations, the Qushai which is the main one (the one above) and the Rukakh which makes the sounds become like this : V - Gh - Dh (th as in the) - Kh - F - Th (as in theatre) As you guessed the P sound and the F sound are the same letter ܦ݁ for P and ܦ݂ for F The same word can accept the two pronunciations depending on known rules or cases, for example the word ܦ݁ܽܘܡܳܐ which means 'mouth' is pronounced 'Pumo' but if you added ܕ before it to mean (because of - that of mouth) the word will be become ܕܦ݂ܽܘܡܳܐ 'dFumo' And Arabic doesn't have this anymore and treats the two sounds of 4 of these letters as separate different letters
Hello! Semitic linguist here: The process you explained here is a feature, called begadkefat, unique to Aramaic and versions of Hebrew that are heavily affected by Aramaic (basically most versions of Hebrew), it's the lenition of post-vocallic non-geminated unemphatic oral plosives (aka /p b t d k g/) into fricatives [f v θ ð χ ʁ], to explain the terms: post-vocallic (after vowels) non-geminated (not double) unemphatic (not [tˁ] or [q]) oral (not [ʔ h ħ ʕ]) plosives ([p b t d tˁ k g q ʔ]) fricatives ([f v θ ð s z ʃ χ ʁ ħ ʕ h]) Later those sounds became phonemic but that's the origin of this system. It is not "Semitic feature" and Arabic didn't "abandoned" it, it never happened in Arabic to begin with. In fact the lack of /p/ is much more common within Semitic than having it, out of the dozens and dozens of Semitic languages in the Middle East and Horn od Africa only few are attested with a native /p/ (Aramaic, Hebrew, Phoenician, Ugaritic, Akkadian, Maltese, Cypriot Arabic, etc ), every other Semitic language lacks a /p/ sound As for Arabic having /θ ð χ ʁ/ those are not from /t d k g/ those are from kther sources, compare Syriac ܚܙܝܪܐ (/ħzira/ in the East and /ħziro/ in the West) and Classical Arabic /χinziːr/, here Arabic /χ/ is related to Syriac /ħ/ not to Syriac /k/-/χ/
before the Malays adapt to use roman alphabet, the Malays were mainly using arabic alphabet which were adapted from the arabian traders but the malay language has some vocabularies that aren't exist in arabic alphabet so the malays added few of their alphabets which became the "Jawi" variant of arabic alphabet which includes the "ch" sound and also the "p" sound.
This is true,there are other letters which the Malays create it to make the Abjad writing system more fitting to the Malay language.The examples are: ڠ (ng) ۏ(v) چ(ch) ڽ(ny)
nice video! im not sure "pee" and "eff" are the most accurate names for these sounds but it certainly gets the message across so i wont complain.. well explained
very interesting, this is the opposite for indonesian and javanese, where f actually turns into p. For example faham (loaned from arabic) is often pronouced paham. nice vid tho
Hebrew has this feature where bgdcpt (but in modern hebrew just bcp) have two pronounciations, depending on where in the word are they. A soft b is a v sound; a soft c is a ch/h sound (this is not the english ch or h sound, I dunno what it's called); a soft p is an f sound. I believe the rule is, you use the hard sound if it's the beginning of a word or it's after a stop, and the soft sound elsewhere. You can use a small dot to indicate the hard sound, but nobody does it except sometimes with loanwords that break the rules like jeep
The opposite is in Georgian language where there is no F letter so loanwords with F are pronounced with P, same was with old Armenian language later F letter was added into Armenian alphabet. Such F to P transformations are common in some languages of the Caucausus region
kinda unique how a lot of languages shifted some words from p to f. because in Malaysia (it's acual more of malay speakers than malaysians), we tend to do the reverse. instead of pronouncing f, we pronounce it as p. tho, this only happens in dialects and not the entire language itself.
Ayy glad to see my language! IIRC the only two words in Vietnamese that start with p that isn’t paired with h (ph) are pin (your example) and pía, part of “bánh pía”, a durian pastry.
So far, you are the first youtuber i have seen to pronounce Maori better than most other channels. I was so glad when i didnt here "Mayory". Thats how bad people are at saying it.
Another thing to note on comparative phonology is Korean has p, but not f, so while the loan word in Mandarin is kafei, in Japanese koohii, in Korean it's something like keopi, or koppi. I don't why it is, but it's interesting to think that the loan words for 'copy' and 'coffee' sound similiar in Korean.
Yes, and the English loan words _file_ (for computer file) and _fashion_ sound like “pile” and “passion,” respectively. The word for _France_ in Korean is pronounced (roughly) “peulangseu.” (Consistently, Korean lacks _f’s_ voiced equivalent _v_ as well.)
old irish actually has absolutely no Ps anywhere, not even a letter in ogham, and it's also pretty absent in frequency outside of loanwords. meanwhile then you have welsh which uses it everywhere, but only with a k to p sound shift from the rest of celtic that gauls also had for some reason
That is interesting because for most Indonesians it’s easier to say p than f. Most Indonesian words containing f were derived from foreign languages like Arabic. But most of the time we pronounce the f as p.
in my native language, Javanese, the F and P relationship is the other way around. We use a lot of P sound but almost no F sound. When we use word from other language with F (and sometime V), we turn it into P.
Hebrew is somewhere in the middle of this shift, by the way. we have the /p/ phoneme which is realised as [p] when it's at the beginning of words or has emphasis in the root, and as [f] (historically [ɸ]) when not.
Arab here: I must watch. Too interesting. Why do we lack a P in standard Arabic? Well, let me tell you, in Iraq, we call a man who fixes flat tyres a "pentcherchy", from the English word "puncture" plus Turkish suffix "chi". The comparison with Japanese was fascinating. I almost forgot about how Japanese turned p into f into h, which I learned when I was curious about why they wrote p as a h with a half-voiced mark. The connection between h, b, and p in hiragana was strange, until I read about the half-voice mark's history on Wikipedia. This video reminded me of that. Did you know that Arabs used to turn the p in loanwords into f? Parsi, Farsi is an example. Plato, Eflaton is another. Now we turn it into b, but I think f is better than b. For example, fentsherjy instead of bentsherjy as a way to write pentcherchy without using Persian letters chim (gim with three dots) and pa (like ba, with three dots).
We still use /f/ to loan foriegn [p] just not as often as before, Saudis for example consistently loan Malay words with /p/ as /f/. Historically with Greek /pʰ/ was usually loaned as /f/ and /p/ was usually loaned as /b/.
in Hebrew it's a different process called begadkefat where ALL non-emphatic stops (/p t k b d g/ but not /tˁ q ʔ/) were lenited into fricatives ([f θ χ v ð ʁ]) after vowels, which later became a phonemic distinction in Mishnaic Hebrew, in Modern Hebrew /θ ð ʁ/ were merged back into /t d g/ because many speakers had difficulty pronouncing those (ironic since the dominant pronunciation of /r/ became [ʀ~ʁ̞])so now the only pairs are /p/-/f/, /b/-/v/, and /k/-/χ/, but that's not the case for other liturgical varieties like Yemenite Hebrew. Interestingly Samaritan Hebrew completely lacks phonemic begadkefat, as it wasn't part of the Mishnaic tradition! In any case hope that explains why Arabic having /f/ with no /p/ but not have /v/ either is different.
Somewhat similar happens with Indo-aryan and Dravidian languages, which somewhat follow Sanskrit grammar( the former ones) or influenced by it( the latter ones). Sanskrit grammar( Astadhyayi) as codified by the Hindu Grammarian Panini in the 8th-6th BCE and Tamil grammar Tollakappiyam( 3rd century BCE), didn't have F, Q, Z sounds originally as the grammar books of other indian languages, which resulted in nearly no native Indian language having it( with some exceptions like Urdu, Punjabi borrowing it artificially from Persian-Arabic and Marathi, Assamese having similar internal developments on their own) . We traditionally have one non-aspirated p and K ( प and ख as in Hindi for instance) and an aspirated p and K( फ and ख़ as in Hindi). Indian speakers can easily make out loanwords from Arabic and Persian which have these aforesaid sounds more specifically and can only pronounce it with effort but out of laziness, we tend to pronounce F, Q, Z as indigenous Ph, Kh, J. We do have P in all our languages though. It is the reason, why Indian scripts didn't have letters for F, Q, Z until recently, many still use the letters corresponding to their native approximate sound value or with slight modifications to them by adding nuqta/Bindu to the already present native letter. For example in Hindi, ph is transcribed in Devanagari as फ, but F is फ़. Kh is ख, Q is ख़ J is ज, Z is ज़ Bonus- the hard guttural g of Arabic( Ghayn) is transcribed as an allophone of native g( ग), that is ग़.
@@Physche p with an aspiration ph, while the p faded out and the h remains. Japanese languages f also sounds like an h with a very gentle f sound ahead.
No, /h/ did not come from /p/ *directly*. It first shifted from /p/ to /ɸ/, and THEN shifted from /ɸ/ to /h/, which is a sound change that occurred in some other languages such as hawaiian (proto-polynesian /afi/ > hawaiian /ahi/).
Brother, if you need any help with the arabic language and it's dialects i can definitely help. There's alot of nuance depending on locale and dialect that could be confusing, especially as "standard" Arabic is still spoken with an accent or even not spoken at all in some places (like the maghreb or egypt)
interesting, i've experienced the opposite with malay and tamil pronunciations, speakers tend to turn f-sounds to p-sounds. i think it's because F isn't native to the languages.
I've read somewhere that one reason p often changes to f is because our jaws have become shorter with modern diets. Hunter-gatherers will chew a lot more tough food that causes the jaw to grow larger, and when the jaw is further forward it's easy to make a p sound and somewhat hard to make an f sound but when it's further back the f is easier. So the reason is (maybe) ultimately because of soft food
This is actually based on one really bad study that assumes that humans only developed overbites very very recently (which might be true) and that before than labiodental sounds like [f v] did not exist or were exceedingly rare. But that's not true at all as we have many languages with labiodentals that have been attested for thousands of years not to mention reconstructed languages.
@@ryuko4478 AHH cool. I thought it sounded a bit weird. Especially that f sounds should be impossible. The core idea that labiodental sounds become slightly more easy than labial sounds, still seems fairly reasonable to me.
@@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug The effects would be slight at best, but yeah it's not completely unaffected, perhaps it affect labiodentals (upper teeth on lower lip) vs dentolabials (lower teeth on upper lips)? but dentolabials are rare even in regions where underbites are uncommon so it's back to square one. People seem to frequently overestimate how much environments affect language (see the discredited "mountains cause ejectives" hypothesis for another example).
In the Japanese's case, The /f/ sound mentioned in the video is actually /φ/, which is bilabial fricative(sound that is pretty simillar to /f/ but you pronounce it only with your lips, which is sound when you try to pronounce "wh"o).
Sometimes I can't pronounce the p in Spanish (native language) while speaking spontaneously. I don't know why. But I change it to a soft b (it's represented similar to ß with IPA). Even words like "papá" (dad) occasionally I'll pronounce it as "babá" (with the soft b)
Hindi even differentiates between aspirated (प) and unassisted! (फ) . . . as well as the dotted aspirated version (फ़) standing in for the "f" sound in loan words from Persian or Arabic!
In arabic we have a letter for p that we use to distinguish it from b but its not that commonly used it looks like this پ and is a loan from persian which does have p
There is such a character in a dialect of arabic, but not MSA I believe. This is a statement from wikipedia. The third letter of the Kurdo-Arabic alphabet. Its name is پا(pa) and it has the sound of English P. It is preceded by ب (bi) and followed by ت (ti)
As far as I know, Indo-aryan languages never changed their p's to f. Rather, f only occurs in loanwords for most. However, I have noticed some speakers switch aspirated ph to f. Change in progress
So you're partly saying that, given time, P tends to shift to F and ultimately H in certain (especially ancient) languages. Makes sense. Would be cool if we had a phonetic term for that shift and/or descriptor for languages in which this tends to happen (or not) the most.
Ancient languages? in Japanese it happened around the 8th century, in German around the 11th century, in Persian it happened around the 9th century, in Indo-Aryan languages it is happening *right now* Just because you are more aware of it in Ancient languages (because it is kore clear then) doesn't mean Ancient Languages had tendencies that don't happen much anymore
2:02 "... p has... frequent habit of turning into f" Explains so much. In South Africa, some languages (eg, Nguni languages) use f (say in the word "funa" = want) while other languages (eg, Tsonga & Venda), not too far from the region of the "f" language will make a pf sound ("funa" becomes "pfuna"). It's sort of this middle ground between a p and an f, but sounds like a very hard f... it's hard for me to make that sound. Interesting
In my language (Mam) there is no F sound. Some people would pronounce loan words containing an F with a P instead, which is the opposite of what you just discussed.
In contrast to that, in Portuguese there's a text with only P words, it's the Pedro Paulo Pereira Pinto, the Portuguese Painter, it's the story of a Portuguese Painter that worked in Brazil and had to Pay a Promise to Priest Paulo to Paint Pots and Plates, then Parted to Portugal to visit his Papa and then went to Paris to Paint Poor People in Ports and Plazas, but before Painted the Peeks of the Pyrenees. And the story goes on... the whole text: “Pedro Paulo Pereira Pinto, pequeno pintor português, pintava portas, paredes, portais. Porém, pediu para parar porque preferiu pintar panfletos. Partindo para Piracicaba, pintou prateleiras para poder progredir. Posteriormente, partiu para Pirapora. Pernoitando, prosseguiu para Paranavaí, pois pretendia praticar pinturas para pessoas pobres. Porém, pouco praticou, porque Padre Paulo pediu para pintar panelas, porém posteriormente pintou pratos para poder pagar promessas. Pálido, porém personalizado, preferiu partir para Portugal para pedir permissão para papai para permanecer praticando pinturas, preferindo, portanto, Paris. Partindo para Paris, passou pelos Pirineus, pois pretendia pintá-los. Pareciam plácidos, porém, pesaroso, percebeu penhascos pedregosos, preferindo pintá-los parcialmente, pois perigosas pedras pareciam precipitar-se principalmente pelo Pico, porque pastores passavam pelas picadas para pedirem pousada, provocando provavelmente pequenas perfurações, pois, pelo passo percorriam, permanentemente, possantes potrancas. Pisando Paris, pediu permissão para pintar palácios pomposos, procurando pontos pitorescos, pois, para pintar pobreza, precisaria percorrer pontos perigosos, pestilentos, perniciosos, preferindo Pedro Paulo precaver-se. Profundas privações passou Pedro Paulo. Pensava poder prosseguir pintando, porém, pretas previsões passavam pelo pensamento, provocando profundos pesares, principalmente por pretender partir prontamente para Portugal. Povo previdente! Pensava Pedro Paulo… Preciso partir para Portugal porque pedem para prestigiar patrícios, pintando principais portos portugueses. Passando pela principal praça parisiense, partindo para Portugal, pediu para pintar pequenos pássaros pretos. Pintou, prostrou perante políticos, populares, pobres, pedintes. - Paris! Paris! - proferiu Pedro Paulo - parto, porém penso pintá-la permanentemente, pois pretendo progredir. Pisando Portugal, Pedro Paulo procurou pelos pais, porém, papai Procópio partira para Província. Pedindo provisões, partiu prontamente, pois precisava pedir permissão para papai Procópio para prosseguir praticando pinturas. Profundamente pálido, perfez percurso percorrido pelo pai. Pedindo permissão, penetrou pelo portão principal. Porém, papai Procópio puxando-o pelo pescoço proferiu: - Pediste permissão para praticar pintura, porém, praticando, pintas pior. Primo Pinduca pintou perfeitamente prima Petúnia. Porque pintas porcarias? - Papai - proferiu Pedro Paulo - pinto porque permitiste, porém, preferindo, poderei procurar profissão própria para poder provar perseverança, pois pretendo permanecer por Portugal. Pegando Pedro Paulo pelo pulso, penetrou pelo patamar, procurando pelos pertences, partiu prontamente, pois pretendia pôr Pedro Paulo para praticar profissão perfeita: pedreiro! Passando pela ponte precisaram pescar para poderem prosseguir peregrinando. Primeiro, pegaram peixes pequenos, porém, passando pouco prazo, pegaram pacus, piaparas, pirarucus. Partindo pela picada próxima, pois pretendiam pernoitar pertinho, para procurar primo Péricles primeiro. Pisando por pedras pontudas, papai Procópio procurou Péricles, primo próximo, pedreiro profissional perfeito. Poucas palavras proferiram, porém prometeu pagar pequena parcela para Péricles profissionalizar Pedro Paulo. Primeiramente Pedro Paulo pegava pedras, porém, Péricles pediu-lhe para pintar prédios, pois precisava pagar pintores práticos. Particularmente Pedro Paulo preferia pintar prédios. Pereceu pintando prédios para Péricles, pois precipitou-se pelas paredes pintadas. Pobre Pedro Paulo pereceu pintando.. Permita-me, pois, pedir perdão pela paciência, pois pretendo parar para pensar… Para parar preciso pensar. Pensei. Portanto, pronto pararei.”
In Amharic all P(ፐ)and V(ቨ) words have foreign origin specially V is recent. They don’t exist in our language. But there are lots of greek words adopted to Ge’ez and Amharic for liturgical purposes and they are written in the ejective P’(ጰ) for example P’etros(ጴጥሮስ),P’awlos(ጳውሎስ),P’eraqlitos(ጰራቅሊጦስ), P’agumen(ጳጉሜን) etc. So when we pronounce Ethiopia it’s ItiyoP’iya (ኢትዮጲያ)
it is true that we "mostly" pronounce "p" just like "f" in Vietnamese but it's only when p with h "ph" is more likely to pronounce like "f" other than that "p" is just like "b" and sometimes it can create some funny situations
Something interesting about p in English: almost all examples of p are from loan word, there are only a words native to English with ps, such as apple and play. This is because English "p" derives from proto indo European "b", which was almost non existent
@@rosiefay7283 true, I forgot up. As for power and place, for the purposes of my comment I use "native" to mean "inherited from proto Germanic". I probably should have just said thst
@@weirdlanguageguy That is very interesting. You did say "such as", in your initial comment, so I think we should understand that you were not giving an exhaustive list. :)
I had a friend whose native language was Arabic and I saw in him that if he really tried, he could pronounce P but during normal speech he defaulted to B. Turning policy into bolicy, for instance.
Japanese /p/ only survived when it was geminated intervocalically. It shifted first to a bilabial fricative (not quite an /f/, more breathy and weak) and then happily shifted into an h, probably via an intermediary voiceless labiovelar fricative.
I had a Filipino friend in grad school & he said that in their language that they did not have and "F" sound & that the name of their country is pronounced starting with a "P" sound instead of an "F" and that country was named by the Spanish. I hate to assume but his native language was probably Tagalog
Modern Khmer is similar to modern Vietnamese lack of initial /p/ in native word. /p/ in Old Khmer and Old Vietnamese are shifted to implosive [ɓ] (not voiced stop) in modern phonology that’s why both languages sound unique because of implosive initials while Mon and other Austroasiatic languages preserve the initial /p/
my native language tagalog has /p/ but no /f/, so being told that people find it easier to pronounce /p/ as /f/ is wild to me when i myself often slip into pronouncing /f/ as /p/ when i'm not careful 😅
I found hebrew kinda has the opposite case- where it's rare to found f, and much to found p. Ths most common case f appears in is in the coda, whereas p is never in the coda except for loanwords.
It's the opposite in Qazaq. F often turns into a P. Like the word for Farsi is "parsı". The word opinion, which in Turkish is "fikir", is instead "pikir"
Although we don't have a P sound in Arabic (me being a native speaker) for some reason we don't have any issues distinguishing it and the B sound in English apart.
We do have issues, mostly Arabs can't pronounce /p/ or keep mixing up /p/ and /b/, saying "bart" instead of "part" and "bolution" instead of "polution" and "beebul" instead of "people". Some people who do learn how to pronounce /p/ keep mixing it up with /b/, saying "pite" instead of "bite". We, Arabic native speakers that can fluently distinguish /p/ and /b/, are the minority.
@@ryuko4478 yeah in terms of pronunciation a lot of people mix them up but I meant that they can distinguish them when they listen to the language being spoken lime for example "pop" and "bob" or "pack" and "back"
@@ahmadawlagi6481 Again you are talking from your experience as a fluent speaker (or perhaps you're Iraqi and have a lot of /p/ words from Persian too) most Arabs can't tell apart pop and bob and pack and back
@@ryuko4478 I don't know maybe it is just my experience but at least that is what I noticed in my environment(friends and family), not just me, and no I'm not Iraqi so we don't have Persian words, but thanks for the information
nope! Diachronically speaking Japanese [ɸɯ̟ᵝ] is from [pu] > [ɸu] > [ɸɯ̟ᵝ] not delabializing, synchronically speaking you can analyze it as /hu/ labializing into [ɸɯ̟ᵝ] tho. It should be noted that [hɯ̟ᵝ~xɯ̟ᵝ] are valid allophones of /hu/ just rarer than [ɸɯ̟ᵝ].
Slight correction (from a Vietnamese): In Vietnamese we do pronounce the 'p' (in 'pin') properly in the beginning of the word. In fact, all of my friends along with most of the people i met pronounce it as a 'p' with slight nasalisation.
@@hanggaraaryagunarencagutuh7072 Most dialects have loan words from other languages that have the sound P and it is very similar to B sound in Arabic. Although the French P is much more difficult to pronounce.
Most Arabs who can say /p/ easily is due that they learned a second language that has a /p/ or they live in a society that uses /p/ (for the same reason), but if you went to a place where only Arabic is learned, you will notice that all /p/ shifted to /b/
I don't understand how it's easier to pronounce F instead of P. It's totally different lip configuration and personally for me more work is needed to pronounce F (moving lips and pushing air) than P (just pushing air through closed lips). Some languages (Baltic and Finnic) don't even have F (and H in Baltic) sound except for loanwords.
Some languages have /p/ and no /f/ and find [f] difficult, some languages have /f/ and no /p/ and find [p] difficult, some languages have /p~f/ and find neither hard tho they might find telling them appart hard, and some languages have both /p/ and /f/. Languages that you fluently know or at least got exposed to a lot (especially as a child) determine what you find easy or hard.