But what if Justice League sucks just as bad? Visionary Director Zack Snyder has trouble juggling that many plot threads when it's just Batman and Superman.
This whole movie was a mess. Franchise building has only worked for one studio, Marvel. WB should have just focused on live adapting some of their best graphic novels.
I was touched by that. Poor Henry, went back and watched that clip from MoS where they show just how important Martha is to Clark. "You think you can threaten my mother?!" *punches the shit out of Zod* Probably the only time Henry got to show some emotion. SMH It makes me angry how badly they fucked this movie up
@@touristygull2059 Neither have they read Kingdom Come, which is the Superman answer to the Dark Knight Returns that most comic fans seem to either be disregarding, or just have no knowledge about.
@@hiranom20 because these guys don’t give a shit about comics. But man they’ll go on and on about how it’s the best version of superman and they’re “hardcore dc fans”
Damn...this video deserves a freaking standing ovation. It's shocking...how utterly easy it would have been to improve this movie by leaps and bounds. How they could within the basic structure of the film....to make a better movie. And I love the changes. Giving Superman that choice to send Batman to help his mother is great. It's a simple change but it's huge. Give Superman some agency. Have him make a choice to put the life of someone he loves in Batman's hands. Taking a risk, but taking that risk in order to be Superman. To save the most people possible because he can do that. And then changing things with saving Lois. I would just go with the simpler option of having him realize this key moment and choosing saving Lois above going for the spear. Taking that risk, but doing so to be Batman. Saving people in front of him instead of making the choice to let an innocent die to stop a monster. It fuels Batman's character and Superman's character. And that also solves another major problem of the movie to me. Superman killing Doomsday. He has to in that scenario. Wonder Woman is down, Batman isn't there, and only Superman can act. He has to take that risk. Not because of something stupid like "Lois you are my world", but because no one else can. In the original movie....give Wonder Woman the fucking spear you moron! She's plenty strong, she's been fighting that monster in close combat, she can freaking do it. And she's not going to be weakened by the darn spear. And it works because Batman is basically pointless in that fight anyways. Why have Superman who they actually need to fight this guy go and save Lois when the guy who is basically pointless in this level of battle is just hanging around doing nothing? Anyways, great job. I'd have loved if they did this. Batman is better for it and so is Superman. It was so damn easy to do this! Gah!
man i agree with you and man would I have loved to see that film redone close to what you've ranted about. I liked the movie for what it was but I know there are a lot of issues at the same time. I really see greatness in Wonder Woman's movie but i'm super scared because Chris Terrio, who wrote BVS (with David S Goyer), and Zach Snyder are writing JL. Not to get into the plot, character arc, villian's, portrayals, etc. because you covered that well, I'm scared about the dialogue. They're some really atrocious lines in that movie. I don't think the banter will work with DC because unless it's the Flash or Cyborg everyone else are really serious characters compared to how Marvel uses it humor. Also with Snyder writing it I want to see less the "moment" slow motion scenes and more establishing shots and what have you. I hope Geoff Johns, who isn't credited in JL, helps work on it.
I'm far more worried about JL than WW too. I feel that it has too much tap-dancing to do with everything that is now expected of it. They were a week away from shooting when the first reviews for BvS hit, so the script they were planning to shoot undoubtably had the same tone and style as this film, which means any banter or lightness will have to be injected on the fly. And that didn't turn out so well for Suicide Squad. At least Wonder Woman can lean on Chris Pine and the other supporting actors.
I agree. Honestly, if Snyder had cut out the massive amounts of repetitive christ imagery and focused more on developing character over stylised and frankly useless slow motion montages and dream sequences, BvS could have been a great movie. I loathe this movie with a passion, but that's mainly because it has fantastic potential that it absolutely squanders. I feel like the screenwriters need to spend more time editing their scripts and that someone needs to give Snyder some constructive criticism on the way he is directing this franchise.
FlareKnight You are wrong on the Spear part. Wonder Woman was alry in the midst of holding Doomsday down allowing Batman to fire the last kryptonite gas at him
I AM in fact a marvel fan, and I feel like D.C. needs Superman to be like their captain America, a moral center. Somebody who is a good leader, and a beacon of positivity and hope.
lethal vibe Exactly! That's what made the character likable. In the comics he's often mocked for being a boyscout. That was taken away in Man of Steel when his father questioned if it was a good decision for him to save the kids on the bus and he was then put in a position where he had to snap Zod's neck.
Exactly super mans greatest power is not leaping tall buildings it's his ability to inspire and give people hope and help them be the best they can be. And make selfless decision
lethal vibe Which is why a superman fan like me turns to Captain America movies and the Avengers to get my fix. Cap is the only hero remotely resembling Superman on the big screen right now. You think having a 'squarish', 'upright' character is boring? Well that's just because you don't know how to write him. There are so many other heroes in the Marvel universe with more colorful personalities and exciting superpowers, and yet Marvel gave decided to make what is a Big Blue Boy Scout with no superpowers the leader of their team. They respected his character, make him the moral core, and make him make difficult choices. That's how you would write Superman, except that he had superpowers to play with. The thing about making the choice to save the world or save Lois? Well, Superman Returns did it. And that was a Reeves imitation Superman, and still a much better Superman than this.
This movie couldn't even give us a reason to care about Superman. They needed an entire additional movie to address the development of the world as a character in its fear of Superman. They should have had an entire film focusing on Superman earning the world's love and trust as it greatest hero. In the movie we saw, there's no reason to think the word would react as it did to Superman's death. In the world we were presented, half the world should have been happy he's dead.
Wow. Incredible to realize that the "Martha" moment could have been the most genius move in the film, hell, one of the most iconic moments in superhero cinema, if it was executed like you pitched it. Instead it became a fucking meme and one of the most mentioned reasons why BvS sucks. Fuck, I hope the writers of this movie see this video one day, just so they can see how much they fucked up and how EASILY they could have saved the movie.
I want to add to this, and say that they could have kept in Batman's "WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME' and it would have still made sense, because it would have still been a trigger for Bruce, and added to the emotion of the scene instead of coming across corny
@@blue_eyedfloozy well no, saying that martha is going to die makes no sense for you to reply with why did you say that name. Like boi, he just told you
Is it really that hard to get a good writer? They could've just hired this guy, he would be cheaper than the actual writer and the script would come out MUCH MUCH better.
Really spectacular vid (minus the audio which could get really distracting at points). I'd done a lot of thinking in regards to what it was that makes the characters in this film so damn flat, and it's never occurred to me just how much of it was a lack of meaningful choices being made by anyone.
Alexandre it doesn't matter what the intent was. In the end, Snyder failed to convey this. I mean, how hard can it be for a writer to organically make Superman say "Martha" instead of "Mom"? BATMAN Do you have any last words!? SUPERMAN Whatever you do...please...save my Mom...save Martha Kent... Of course, it only works if Superman did everything in his power to try to talk to Bruce as R&B said.
Wow you actually made the Martha moment seem powerful! Unlike David Goyer & Chris Terrio who completely fucked it up & made it one of the biggest meme jokes of 2016! No it didn't go over my head & was too smart for me to understand, I understood it the moment I saw it, I just thought it was ridiculously executed
It doesnt work. Batman assumes superman has some sort of selfish villainous streak which isnt present in the plot that leads him to ask superman what he wants with his final breath. Batman knows superman isnt bad... but can change one day.
The problem with the scene is that it focuses on the novelty of the coincidence of the name Martha rather than its emotional resonance. It's more a funny reveal than one of feeling and meaning because it was never set up properly.
+THOMAS CARNACKI Yeah at that point i would not have cared if she died, her advise to Clarke was 'if you don't wanna do this then fuck them, earth does not owe you anything'. Well fuck you too bitch.
I'd love to see your version of the film. It sounds exponentially better than what we saw in theatres. It was especially impressive that you didn't rewrite the entire script, just changed small bits here and there. Little touch-ups and whatnot.
" I'd love to see your version of the film. It sounds exponentially better than what we saw in theatres." It would still get picked apart by youtubers ...Critics are people who claim to know the way ,but can't drive the car .
Um.. Alright. Poorly phrased metaphoric speech aside, I'd still enjoy watching a version of the film that adheres to what is said in this video. Regardless of the opinions any other might have on the subject.
I just don't agree that filmmakers should cater to the lowest common denominator. The same people whining about BvS did nothing but piss & moan over Superman Returns (which is exactly the movie they're saying they now want).
Z4RQUON there's a film between those two films personally, not a copy of the old superman films but not a sad uncharismatic superman. Cavill is actually charismatic in real life
Skyebright1: I get that, but the point is having Superman start out perfect is boring to watch...which is why Superman 3 and 4 sucked and they stopped making movies about _that_ Superman. I actually consider Superman Returns to be a happy medium between the two but, as I said, people whined about that one too. Nobody is ever happy about Superman, so why not make a movie explaining why? Enter BvS.
Maybe Clark, as a journalist, investigates Batman's past and sees that before Robin died he was not as violent: This would show that losing Robin made Bats more violent and thus gives Clark a reason to help Batman return to who he was once before. Then instead of Superman destroying the bat mobile helps Batman catch the criminals without anyone being killed: By doing so he shows Batman there's another way to catch baddies that does not end up causing death and thus going with the theme of MoS where Joe-El says "You will give them an idea to strive towards." This also, ironically, helps Batman get the kryptonite but puts a sliver of doubt in Batman's mind that he should not kill Superman.
MarlonOwnsYourCake if your an actor you can’t take scripts and horrible characters . If you director talks about getting raped and etc probably don’t take the role
Dude please stop , it's 15 mins running , many minutes left and you already emotionally proved how just by fixing only the last scene will make this movie so much great even it has major plot and character issue.You are awesome.Respect bro.
Thanks to you.Although I have high hope on Wonder Woman but almost no hope on Justice League cause DCEU's characters are not emotionally connected or inspiring enough and they are bringing more three major DC characters without any introduction.WOW.Making film is an wonderful art journey with a great written story with great characters that audience care for.If a universe is built with some not fleshed out characters ,why will the viewers should be invested in? Just because they are fans? Obviously not ... but yes Only blind fans can do that cause they will jump up 10 stories high doesn't matter what creators made.If blind fanboys' quantity rises then quality of story telling will drop but some fan are not easy to please , those are called real hardcore fan.
It's also excitement - that we all feel - about getting our faves up on the big screen and into big movies. Just becomes difficult when some people can't see past those rose-tinted glasses, and it's frustrating being someone who is disappointed because you don't really want to attack something other people like when it's all they've got. The failure of the DCEU rests squarely on WB/DC though, who just came at it with the most screwed up amount of decision making I've ever seen in a major studio.
Latest news of today.Ben Affleck stepped out from directing Solo Batman.I think a fresh reboot is really needed.Even if they want to fix by launching phase 2 they have to fix a lot and that will create a lot difference between phase 1 & 2 and also need lots of hardworks and devotion.I wonder which directors are gonna step in to fix this blackhole or take this huge responsibility? First of all WB need to fix their own plans and problems.They need to set a tone that upcoming directors can easily work with , make a plan , make a slate , character building , world building , which will make a universe slowly.Major problem is I think maybe most of the director having problem to relate or set or match their tone with Snyder's Tone , all directors tones are very different at this point.That's why they are having creative differences and also another main reason is WB have no idea what they need to do with DC.
It just shows how poorly they understand their own characters, and then they put writers and directors in charge who don't understand or don't want to understand those characters.
The problem is Zack Snyder doesn't give a shit about Superman. He said in his recent interviews he only killed him off because he wanted Batman to make the Justice League without having to care about Superman. Plus if a movie wants to be seen as a serious work of art it needs the script to back it up.
Zack just wasn't the person for this project. It's a shame because this movie deserved a better director behind it. Zack is a great visual director, just not a good story teller
The problem is that he killed off Bizarro which is why no one cared, because the characters aren't in the movie. Superman is the one that starts the JLA. These losers don't understand the characters.
Tamaki742 I think Batman Kills after an emotional trauma that could have resulted after the death of a close one, such as Robin. Maybe because of his rules of not killing, Batman feels is responsible for the death of Robin so he changes his role.
Tamaki742 Swear to fucking god, if they don't put Red Hood, which happens to be my favorite character in the entire dc universe, into the DCU at some point because of the stupid shit that Zack Snyder calls "directing", I am never giving DC my money ever again. I WANT BADASS LIVE ACTION RED HOOD DONE ON A HOLLYWOOD BUDGET. (No offense to the incredible fan films) I now have a splitting headache, goodnight everyone.
Thank you, thank you, fucking THANK YOU! That duel between Superman and Batman annoyed me to no end because the motivation is to get help to save his mom, yet Superman goes out of his way to antagonize Batman. That super-push he gives Batman was the moment I just gave up with this story.
Inspired video. I gave you a shout out on a BVS commentary podcast recently. I wanted to reference some of your ideas. You've absolutely captured the essence of 'constructive criticism' in this video. You didn't just bash it, you gave sound reasoning and made very good suggestions for improvement. I'm a fan!
@12:19 this guy just reworked the entire BvS plot..with one line wowow...Nice analysis. when the DC animation group is doing better than the LiveAction group..DC u failing
This is amazing, honestly. I am trying to share this and send to everyone I know. My biggest problem with BVS was the fact that neither Batman or Superman were really heroic. They were both driven by selfish motivations. Both focused on killing, or fighting rather than saving. Although there are instances or glimpses of the heroes I know and love (Bruce rescuing the little girl) or (imo the one good Clark scene in the film, when he gets into the tub with Lois), I don't recognize either of these characters. That is not my Superman and that is not my Batman. Thank You for the great video.
Thanks for watching it! I could even take selfish motivations, but there was just nothing definitive about the character at all as far as I could see. Make him bad or good, but make the choice at least!
Haha, I suppose you could look at it that way. Affleck saw problems and brought on his own script guy, plus the WB/DC pressure on the studio side was obviously immense to create the next Avengers, but at the end of the day the plain fact was Snyder was given a blank slate, and a blank cheque, and this is what he wanted. I have a little more sympathy for the writer's than usual because it's an unusual situation. That said, Goyer isn't exactly fantastic when he's on his own either.
Auron1Roxas2 superman only saved people because he felt he owed the world something, he never did it because he wanted to, he was forced to by the plot. Plot is the thing by which the story progresses, character should also help progress the story in this case, what little character there is in the movie has nothing to do with plot. And for the comment about being stupid, or a pathetic child, which one of us has to resort to name calling to get their point across?
Heroes are character we are supposed to look up to, people who are noble and brave and do good because they want to do good. Character who tried to kill another character, who is only villain in said characters head, no matter the cost or means is not a hero.
To all the people who came here only to dislike. You can tell this guy is a Superman fan the way he emotively re-describes the "save Martha" scene and the possibilities for the Doomsday fight at the end its clear that he's not a Marvel fanboy in disguise. He's a superman fan disgruntled at how he was portrayed. That's what I got from it and I am a DC fanboy, I respect (and sadly agree) with his opinion. Give the video a chance watch it all the way through and you'll see he makes valid points.
The "Marvel fanboy" boogeyman is completely made-up. Most people who are MCU fans would LOVE to see a great DC movie, it just wasn't happening on Snyder's watch. The movies aren't being trashed because they're DC or because they're different from Marvel. They're being trashed because they're bad movies. Look at how quickly people embraced Wonder Woman. I was always in the DC camp when it came to comics and cartoons, but for the movies (after Nolan's trilogy ended at least) it was Marvel all the way. Fingers crossed things turn around now and the DCEU becomes a legitimate, solid competitor to Marvel.
Alexander Cummins I did watch the video. I did not dislike it as he made good arguments based on his views and opinions. But in the end I was not convinced that this portrayal of Superman was bad. I love MoS and BvS.
I really liked BvS a lot(for whatever reason), but still I find his whole video to the point, and better than all the other videos combined. Most of the other videos that claim to know what's wrong with BvS just pisses me off.
true fans of their favorite escapist fiction are typically better at maintaining their favorite fictional universe than modern writers who replaced the original creator
Actually it wasn't heavily based on the Dark Knight Returns.. Some parts and the title were inspired but, if the film was more like TDKR then it would have been more focused, Batman heavy, and better..
I completely agree with Jay here. This movie felt more like a badly done mix of 3-4 DC superhero stories (Dark Knight Returns, Injustice, Death and Return of Superman...) elements from DKR are there, but completely taken out of context, unfortunately. Also, in my opinion, Miller was still in his "good days" when he wrote DKR. Heck, even Year One is very good, just like his Daredevil run. I'd say his mind really went to shit around the late 90's-Y2K. Wanna read bad Miller Batman stories? There's plenty to choose from, Dark Knight Strikes Again, DKR3, Batman VS Spawn, All Star Batman and Robin.. also Holy Terror, which initially was planned to be a Batman story (ugh). They did make an animated version of DKR, split into 2 movies. I enjoyed it. Certainly a whole lot more that Batman V Superman.
Except in the book it's shown heavily that Superman still respects and cares for Batman and had no intention of really hurting him. He just wanted to talk and calm him down but Batman kept trying to take him down. There relationship was shown quite well in that book and takes place in a universe where the Justice League is disbanded and they're no longer friends. That book does everything right and this movie completely gets it wrong.
Your points in this analysis is exactly why Cavill's Superman never registered with me and why I never felt compelled to re-watch this portrayal of Superman.
God I hate Batman v Superman. It’s such a frustrating movie. And Rant & Bollox (hey, you can find me in forums.fanedit.org), you nailed it, buddy. It’s a shame because everything set up in Man of Steel, all the potential of creating an interesting character and story for this guy is all wasted. Such a shame. Look, I unapologetically love Man of Steel. Despite some structural and tonal issues, I think it’s a great movie and the still best DCEU film (though of course Wonder Woman comes a very close second, but why only second is a different story). And I love the journey Superman goes through in that movie: His goal is to find out the reason he’s here. His journey is discovering who he is and who he’s meant to be. And there are obstacles. Moral dilemmas. He’s an alien, and he can’t just reveal himself to the world, there are consequences. What if they rejected him? Does he save people and risk his secrecy, or does he let people die and secure it? Jonathan Kent believed that the world wasn’t ready. But surely he can’t let people die, but he can’t reveal himself either. So he continues to run away, while continuing his search for why he was sent to Earth. After he learns why he’s on Earth and learns his purpose, he has to decide if the world is ready for his reveal. Then Zod appears, which forces him to make a hasty decision. Should he reveal himself to the world? Should he surrender to Zod, or to mankind? He can’t trust Zod, but he can’t trust mankind either. But the clock is ticking, so he “has to take a leap of faith first. The trust part comes later.” Then he decides in order to save the world, he has to reveal himself. He surrenders and is taken to Zod. Superman is presented with a choice: he can restore his homeworld, Krypton. Or he can choose Earth, his adopted home. Does he put his faith in mankind, or does he restore Krypton? In the end, he chooses Earth. Then after that, he has to make a difficult choice: Zod is going to kill everyone if Superman doesn’t kill Zod. Does he let him live, try to find a different solution but risk the loss more lives, or does he kill Zod to guarantee the safety of others? Especially since he can’t trust humans completely. But Superman can’t let people die. He has to kill this terrorist, who had just vowed to never stop killing people, in order to save lives. This pains him, but he has to do it. (Granted, the worst part of this movie is the end where no one acknowledges what just happened, forgetting Superman killing Zod, with jokes and everyone being happy-go-lucky, and the film ends on a happy note. But I can look past that part because it doesn’t ruin much.) The sequel should have explored the natural continuation of Clark’s journey. Now that mankind is introduced to Superman, this alien, what is their reaction to him? To their credit they tried this in Batman v Superman, but they handled it miserably in it. It’s so out of character for Superman to doubt being a symbol of hope for humanity. Even worse, definitely acknowledging that “Superman was never real. Just dream of a farmer from Kansas” is INFURIATING TO ME. After all his development, after all that was established? THIS IS THE CONCLUSION OUR HERO COMES TO? NO. NO!!! Superman BY DEFAULT wants to save people. Clark in Man of Steel ALWAYS wanted to save people. From DAY 1! No amount of Jonathan Kent’s warnings ever stopped him from saving people, only made him hide. Not only that, but especially Superman accepting his role as the hope and savior of the world obviously further solidifies his motive of always saving people. Superman was a true hero in Man of Steel (yes, I’m aware of the controversies regarding “Not saving enough people” but they’re stupid, because no amount of saving will be enough if Zod isn’t stopped, because the murderer he is, Zod is going to kill them anyway. His goal, first and foremost, is to stop Zod.) But Superman doubts himself to be hopeful and stops saving people altogether, just because everyone is questioning him? Just because it got too hard for him to handle? “No one stays good in this world”? Are you kidding me? This isn’t deepening or reimagining a character, this is completely disregarding what the character stands for! Even ignoring the comics, the previous movie, all that, even if we judge this character on this single movie, he still sucks as a character because he’s so stupid, easily manipulated, moody, mopey, not interesting, isn’t an active character. You already nailed it, R&B. The thing they needed to get right, is to keep (or make, if you didn’t like MoS) Superman an interesting, likable character. Still believes in saving people, puts his faith in them and SMILES, he should have had the goal of proving himself to the world with several obstacles that make him go through an arc (can’t think of the details right now off the top of my head, I need to work on it, need more time). It’s also extremely annoying how they still didn’t acknowledge Superman killed Zod. How is such a big deal for him not an important character flaw? How could you not use this thing which has been a huge deal in the previous movie? Whatever. Rant over.
Add to that Superman killing Zod is the reason Snyder put it in(since he wanted to see the origin of Supermans "no kill rule"when Reeve version didn't need to kill anyone, same as Bale version to see that it was wrong, lol.) You got a lot of this right though, he's too moody and mopey. I never once believed he cared about humanity. He cared about the redhead he wanted to boink maybe, but I couldn't see this Superman doing the scene from All Star Superman(where he stops in the middle of his day to talk a woman down from suicide and embraces her, saying "You're stronger than you think you are.") I could imagine Reeve or even Routh doing it. But not Cavill's version. And thats not because of Cavill as an actor, thats because of how Snyder built this character(keep in mind, Snyder is just an adult version of a teen trying to show how edgy he is and so changes the world when it doesn't need to be (he himself said that if he directed "Batman Begins", the scene with Bruce Wayne in prison would have him being raped. Why? What the fuck would that have to do with the goddamn story? How would that improve the character?) Yes....YES! Superman wants to save people from Day 1. A good version of Superman does it with no care for how the universe treats him or what a "lonely god"he is. He saves people because he loves his adopted world so goddamn much. And we must again compare to an improvement of Superman, that the original had something Superman could never save Johnathan Kent from(a heart attack)compared to the tornado that randomly appears(maybe John Kent is in Oz?)and Johns like "Let me die son!" Also, we see later that Superman happily uses his powers in front of people or where he could be easily caught(the oil derrick where he showed his super strength and invulnerability, smashing and impaling the drivers truck because he spilled beer on him and ineffectually pushed him), but he doesn't bother to save John Kent? This version of Supes CLEARLY was planning to kill John Kent from the start, lol. This version of Superman has stunk since MOS(I'm sorry, but it's true)because we don't see him WANTING to save people. When Reeve version is confronted by his true fathers image in the Fortress, he tells him that it felt good to save people. It felt right. MOS Superman seems to save his mother(Maaaarrrrrttthhhhhaaa)and Lois more than anyone else. Seriously, how many goddamn times did Lois fall from something, fall through something, nearly die, etc;? And he saves her every time, but he can't even save one other person during his big deathmatch with the Kryptonians and Zod? Superman quits because his feewings are hurt in BVS and he somehow arrives JUST in time to save Lois from falling to her death(even when she provides NOTHING to the plot as a character except random middle aged bathtub sex? Lol.) Everyone loves to say "He was starting out!"in MOS as an excuse, but really, it's just weak. He saves Lois at least seven times in that and he doesn't make a mistake once. In BVS, Superman says "I love humanity. And you Lois."before he obviously fake dies, but I never believed he cared about humanity once.So when Lois dies because they're clearly rushing to do "Injustice"(because rushing to do the final fight of "DKR"without any proper buildup worked so well), I guess thats why he's gonna turn evil. Because he doesn't care about anyone but Lois and his mom(Maaaarrrrtttthhhhhaaaa!(Lol, sorry, I'll stop that now.)
The director can change the plot if scenes don't work very wel if doesn't work very well, but the guy that made this video is asking for a MASSIVE change for the entire premesis of the movie. The movie is called Batman versus Superman. Their fight is the selling point of the movie. Nerfing that fight down to just superman and batman having a chat would never be an accepted re-write by the producers. Especially since it's based on the dark knight returns. I agree the story should have been better, even if Snyder had to change it a bit, but cancelling the fight entirely is a terrible idea, you'd have to rewrite the story alltogether and give the movie a different title.
Khorney Umm except it's exactly the opposite, the video works within the framework set up by the movie, only changing bits of dialogue and the order of scenes. He doesn't cancel the fight, he just changes how it goes down to make it more consistent with the characters and more emotionally resonant.
Let's be honest..this was a Batman movie he without a doubt had the best moments,most interesting and best scenes in the movie.Also Peter.JTomasi with his current Superman Rebirth has proven you can have a likeable Superman without being dark
or maybe the spear is destroyed and superman has to beat down doomsday like in the comics making it much more heart wrenching as Clark slowly has his life beat out of him with no way to help him
That works well in a comic but for a movie that sounds just flashy, beat down, and trying to make the Audience care that he's getting beaten. Sounds like a Snyder thing. As the video says, Superman should have to make a choice and presented with a problem during the fight.
I can agree with you on that front. This soundtrack was consistently more memorable than most of Marvel's while ALSO remembering to be cinematically sound. Hans Zimmer knows beyond well what he's doing with what he has.
agree, the people who defend this movies always think that people who hate those movies are haters and want a campy movie like the originals, but no we just want a good written movie, with likeable characters, and heroes who behave somewhat close to what they are, not changing them for the sake of being edgy. MOS and BVS could have been way better movies with a few fixes here and there , zach snyder has great visuals, but his movies lack coherency and good character moments.
Without substance the fight between superman and batman was ok. However when you sit back and look back at it, the fight between them made no sense, and there was never really any tension between them. Yeah Bruce saw him as a threat but it felt like a stretch to me to use as a reason for them to go at it. I didn't feel anything when superman sacrificed himself and that was disappointing to me as a fan of these two characters.
This thesis is rather brilliant, managing not only intelligent, informed criticism, but proposing easily plausible scenarios that would have "fixed" probably the most significant flaw of BvS. Even more impressive, it makes us care about the failure to recognize and fix the flaw, and to feel the loss of what could have been. Great use of clips and score, clear context, and real pathos round out what, it seems to me, is among the very best RU-vid has on film criticism. This has changed the way I look at BvS, and informed how I look at all movies, period.
Thank you very much for the kind words and it's great to hear. I don't believe it for a second!..but I'm still glad you enjoyed the video and took something from it
Especially when it's a character who's honestly rare this day and age: a hero who does what's right because he genuinely wants to do what's right, hoping it allows people to do the same, and ultimately make the world a better place.
KingoftheGundam79 you can deconstruct characters, but only if you know how to do it and part of deconstructing a character is first UNDERSTANDING that character, Zack clearly didn’t respect or understand the character that’s why he did such a shit job of his deconstructionist piece
@@crabteeglocusg7332 i meant dc.. they just suck superman and batman without these 2 dc wouldn't exist..that its problem dc=4 to 5 characters at max..all other characters have no significance
This is the only "fixing BvS" video I will ever agree with. Every other one seems to think they can re-write the entire movie and it just results in a different version of the same problem. This one proves that you only need to change certain things to make an ultimately better version of what was already there. I honestly don't mind BvS and I'm normally willing to overlook everything wrong with it but damn this video made me mad thinking about what could have been.
12:05 _"Superman is failing because of his own stupidity. Because he didn't care about his MOTHER more than beating up Batman. An audience will have no empathy for a stupid character for getting themselves into trouble."_ _"What if . . . . here's my choice . . . right away, Batman sees Superman and says 'f*ck you' and hits him with the gas, choking Superman so he can't talk? Then Bruce leans in and asks, 'whats your last word, alien?' 'Forgiveness?' 'Hate?' "FEAR?!' And his last word is . . . 'Martha. Save my mother.'"_ Totally agree. And you deserve a writing credit for this movie.
I can’t believe you just took the stupidest scene in one of the worst superhero movies ever and actually made it good with just MINOR changes! That version of the Martha scene was SO MUCH BETTER than what we got. It hit me emotionally just with you talking about it. And Batman’s final decision.... Just brilliant
I think Henry was the perfect choice for Superman, so it kills me that he doesn't get to play the embodiment of "truth, justice and the American way". Superman should be likeable, empathetic and humble. He should inspire those around him. Basically he should be like Chris Evans as Captain America, the kind of guy you can aspire to be and yet he's also quite approachable. I don't want Superman to be angsty and aloof. That's what Batman is for.
What about Spider-Man. Ever since his introduction in the Civil War, Peter's combination of innocence and enthusiasm is infectious, he makes you smile. That is what Clark should have been, what Jor-el wanted, but he wasn't
Thank you for this amazing video! Very deep and very accurate! I wish Man of Steel, BvS and the Justice League movies never existed! They've tainted and twisted everything those great superheroes stand for...
I love this video! Funny editing, but also somberness with the music and the points you are trying to convey. And like someone else said, you put more thought into this movie than the people who got paid millions to.
Thanks very much. That scene was crazy - it was so visually and viscerally cool, and yet so devoid of emotional impact...plus I couldn't wrap my head around the fact it was the only real solo action scene in the entire movie! I thought Snyder would've at least delivered more on that front.
Also liked the bit where you say Bruce should have let Lois die and then lied to Superman saying he tried to save her, when in reality he cared more about saving the spear. It would have made more sense for the future knightmare sequences of evil Superman who blames Bruce for everything when he later finds out what really happened.
You have instantly earnt a loyal fan. I loved everything you broke down here, and I wish you were not getting paid shit LOL if you had influence in BVS I would've loved what the movie would've became.
with these tips, BvS could have been saved and rated much higher! now im wondering, are there things you would change to the story outside of what you now described? after all, the fight with the choking kryptonite grenade would have been short... maybe a battle early in the movie between them when Batman tries to hit Supes with his kryptonite spear, but after a lot of punching, he fails? I think this should be just after their first confrontation
Everything I would like to have seen changed in the film would have probably created a whole other video, that's why I narrowed any 'adjustments' to what they had already created. Because, yes, having basic set-ups would have been great - like if they met before the fight for more than 5 seconds (and that didn't take 90mins to happen in the first place). It's just a very badly structured movie.
well, maybe you could make another video then, just about how you think BvS should have gone I know, it is ambitious... but t could work if you want to put in the effort
All those people on set and not one of them asked "why would Clark refer to his mother by her first name?" Or if he did, I imagine Zack Snyder throwing him out a window.
Thanks, I appreciate that as it's my first attempt. I should've said it in video but the last thing I want is to take away from something people enjoy, and like you, it was just feeling it could've been better.
Rant and Bollox thank you for the video sir. Superman is such a great character and Zack has destroyed what superman truly is with this garbage script and movie. it was a batman movie and no respect shown to superman at all. way to crap over someone so iconic.
I mean every movie has flaws doesn't mean I did not like it. You might think it does not have flaws and that's perfectly fine. It's about perspective and opinions at the end of the day and imo, I agree with some flaws he's pointing out. Still enjoyed BvS.
I hated Superman in these movies because he was a broody SOB. Superman should a beacon of justice, the optimistic ultimate hero! Wonder Woman is a much better character in her movie and closer to what Superman should be.
"Wonder Woman is a much better character in her movie and closer to what Superman should be." A sheltered idealist who is convinced they can murder their way to peace?
You’re completely right, just a few minutes ago I stated in a different video that Superman loses his character in Justice League. You made me change my mind. He loses his character in BvS. I was yearning for the simple farm boy in Man of Steel. The fight with Zod in MoS at least had just a little bit of emotional choices, especially when his mother was threatened there.
I still have hope in the DCEU. The things I hope they keep is the great soundtrack of BvS (although Justice League already destroyed that chance dammit.) I hope they also keep the great scenes like Batman in Metropolis and No Man’s Land in Wonder Woman. It’s really just a shame that Junkie XL and Hans Zimmer was fired by Joss Whedon in Justice League. I guess it was the soundtrack of the movies that gave me an emotional attachment to them. It’s what blinded me. When I was watching the movies, I kept defending the narrative saying it was emotional and meaningful, when what I meant was the soundtrack all along. It was the soundtrack that drove the emotions in me. The music perfectly portrayed what the movies were SUPPOSED to be. Just, screw Danny Elfman (the guy that changed Wonder Woman’s theme in Justice League.)
666 dislikes aside, you really put why this movie was disappointing into perspective. Superman - and by extension, Batfleck - didn't care about his choices, so we didn't (couldn't) really care either. Just thinking about it the way you demonstrated makes me, like, baby-shaking angry. Subscribed because of this video, fecker. Well done. :)
I agree with your video, in BvS Superman as a character is unlikable, and he pretty much doesn't do anything as an actual character, he is just there to look angry and punch things. As your first attempt its a good video with some good points.
Loved the suggestion on reworking Flash's warning to have some payoff. I felt they could have made his warning about Martha instead. Let his rage and the confusion of that "dream" cloud his judgement and then the penny drops in a Martha scene like you described. Anyway, brilliant video. Some great insight and analysis. Looking forward to any future content!
Thanks, new video up now on horror films...hopefully less polarizing! The Flash scene was like DC put a post-credits scene mid-movie and expected regular film-goers to care or understand.
It's weird how a movie can become something amazing with some just simple changes and adding of some little dialogue and that saddens me that this movie had so much potential
These changes would have helped the film significantly had they been implemented - they would have helped bring these characters closer to their comic-book counterparts in terms of personality and morality. Depending on how effectively they pulled it off, I might even have been able to forgive this movie for dragging every single one of its characters through the mud the way it did. But instead all the pieces just sort of fall where they may, so we're left with nothing more than a warrior-woman who's just sort hanging around, a kill-crazy Batman who's pissy at a couple of aliens for knocking down his Metropolis tower, and a psychologically destroyed Superman who does nothing impactful and in a whiny voice proclaims that "No one stays good forever," which is a complete betrayal of EVERY NANOFIBER OF WHAT SUPERMAN IS AND WHAT HE REPRESENTS. I was disgusted by this movie. Man of Steel, like BvS, could have been saved with a couple more drafts of the script, but at least with MoS I just felt kind of "meh." BvS takes DC's two biggest icons, jams shotguns up their asses, and fires kryptonite bullets into their anuses until there's nothing left of them but chunky salsa and sparkly green fecal matter.
I have to comment on this Superman quote because i think you have it all wrong. What he says is, "No one stays good in this world" The phrase, "this world" or some variation comes up several times in Superman's part of this movie. The phrases appear as Superman deals with issues of personal faith and hope; his fathers story on the mountain, the balcony scene with Lois, the scene you mention and finally at the end. The declaration during the climax that, "this is my world" ties together all of these and plays directly against both the balcony scene and the mountain. Recall the balcony dialog, Lois: This means something Clark: It did on my world. My world doesn't exist anymore. Lois was directly referencing the Kryptonian symbol for hope that is Superman's shield. By declaring that, "This is my world" Clark is taking ownership of that idea and that his, "world" is one that has that hope in it. Even after everything the movie has put him through he hasn't given up on that and the, "dream of a farmer from Kansas" is, indeed real. By stating that Lois is his, "world" he declares that she is the reason he has hope. It's not a pontificating speech delivered with fists on hips but if this doesn't speak to who Superman is at his core then I don't know what does.
Uh huh, sure. So I misremembered the last two words. The correct version doesn't really change the meaning at all, regardless of what "the world" refers to. It's still a moment in which Superman gives into absolute despair, in a moment when he should be more than capable of rising above the odds, saving Martha and taking down Lex on his own. This is Superman as he should never be portrayed - a moron, and a moron without hope. Any meaning or character development that the film was attempting to convey is lost in that mess of a script. For a director like Snyder who loves to make his "symbolism" as loud and in your face as possible, he sure does have a way of souring any real message of substance in his movies.
If that is what you take away from those elements then I pity you, I truly do. Everyone has to have a stabilizing element in their life. Mine is my wife. I understand what he says when he calls Lois, "his world" and it isn't about obsession or any kind of psychopathic attraction. When I look at my wife I see all the good that the world can be. Even when I have had just the most rat fuck awful day and I think that humanity can't get any lower than the virus riddled shit stain on the sidewalk of the universe it is I look at her and I know we can be better because any world that can produce someone like her is a world worth living in. If you've never felt that then I don't know what to tell you.
See, thats where I think you and I part ways in opinion on this film and this version of Superman. You want Superman to inspire hope through overt actions but I don't think that's how it's done. I don't think you inspire hope with speeches or being unrelentingly cheery or by being obvious. To me, you do it by not letting the world beat you down and change you. You do it by staying true to the best version of you and encouraging others to do the same.The whole movie is about how Superman stays hopeful in a world that is full of nothing but cynicism and negativity. And yeah, it gets to him at a point but he finds a way back AND he manages to bring Batman back with him. Not with a big speech or some overt display with cheesy swelling music behind him. He doesn't do it with an over act. He does it by setting aside every instinct that tells him to do something and, with just a nod that says, "I'm willing to trust you",puts his faith in someone else to do whats right. That's one of the definitions of hope; a feeling of trust. That Superman is willing to trust the man that was just trying to kill him because he believes that people can be better; what's more hopeful than that? I can't THINK of anything more hopeful than that! That, to me, is who Superman is at his core.
I can understand having one person in your life that means more to you than anything else. That one bright spot in your life, the one centerpoint for which you have more love in your heart than all the hatred there is in the world. But losing that person doesn't make you an evil son of a bitch hellbent on making the entire world share your misery. Most people mourn their loss, often for what feels like ages, maybe even become be jaded by it. Such a wound never completely heals - but eventually we move on. We bury our dead, we grieve, we come to terms with it, and we move on. Often we find that our surviving family and friends are there for us, whether we want their help or not. Closure is as much a part of being human as grief and rage and pain. For a hero who's often praised as the most human of us all, writers sure love the idea that Superman is secretly a monster whose one and only tether to humanity is Lois Lane. Cut the chord, and suddenly he's the mother of all villains - world conqueror or lapdog enforcer to an overlord like Darkseid. But Superman isn't that monster, and at the end of the day I don't think most decent people in his shoes would be that monstrous either. I could see him raging for a bit, maybe even lashing out and hurting innocents, but it would be a brief outburst. At worst, he'd go into exile once he released all of his anger. He'd still have a support system in Martha and John Kent, Jimmy Olsen, Kara Zor-El, his friends in the League, hell, even Perry White. But what am I saying? Half these people either haven't been introduced to the DCEU or have been killed off! Thank you and your infinite wisdom, Snyder, you really are a fun bloke. I guess my point to all this rambling is that Superman should be better than this. He doesn't HAVE to make long poetic speeches about hope and optimism and dreams and doing the right thing and all that, but he definitely shouldn't be frowning and crying and moaning about how cruel life is, either. His decisions can speak for him - but here, there's too much muck in the way for any message to get through.
One of the biggest things hamstringing Superman in the Snyder movies is that - at the most basic level - Snyder doesn't believe in the character. As a Randian Objectivist, he doesn't believe in altruism for its own sake. Which is, you know, Superman's WHOLE reason for existence. That's why Snyder emphasizes the "god" stuff. He has to undercut Superman saving the day at every turn. He has to prove that man doesn't need a god. His edict was that Superman must never do for humans what they can do for themselves. But in the process - maybe subconsciously - he cuts Superman out of even making choices for himself, much less others. Just as you pointed out here.
I like BvS but now I realize that Superman is the worst thing about the DCEU I wish this annoying (ironically funny) snyderbots would stop yelling that he's such a deep character. Please they are literally just using him as a plot device he's gonna end up like Superman from Injustice and I'm not surprised after all this is what WB and Snyder wanted to make a " deconstructed, REAL WORLD version" lmfao.
This is a fantastic video and just by your description made me feel something for this movie. I always thought that Superman should have stayed at the bomb site and continued to save people and do everything he could at full speed regardless of any jeers or bad feelings by those around him. By continuing to do what is right dispute ridicule would speak volumes to his character.
very interesting and well made video. your pitch for tweaking those moments is a lot more poignant than the moments themselves. and that's really down to dramatic timing which I think is where Snyder really struggles as a director. Superman in both films does have to face some tough choices. but those moments of deliberation just aren't executed correctly. Clark choose not to save Jonathan but the execution of that moment made it seem like he was paralyzed by indecision. He choose to give himself up to an unknown fate to save Earth from Zod. But his deliberation in the church is more about whether mankind is worth saving rather than him being afraid for himself which would have been much more satisfying. Later Zod tells him "if you destroy the ship you destroy krypton". this makes Superman hesitate for a moment but he doesn't hesitate for long enough. the dramatic timing just isn't quite right. Imagine the end of Seven if he didn't agonize over the decision to shoot for as long as he did. BvS also had similar choices for Superman but again the dramatic timing isn't right and the choices often lack context. Him saving Lois in Africa is actually the first time he's saved someone from a warzone. Something he'd deliberately avoided. if we'd known he destroyed that drone against his better judgement then we'd have more empathy for the way things fell apart from then on. In the courthouse steps scene there's no shouts of "go home!" from the crowd that were heard in the second trailer. Him being told to go home and stand back would have made his decision relatable. With the "I'll find her" moment Superman decides to accept Batman's help. but again the dramatic emphasis is wrong. it seems like Snyder thinks the characters being faced with decision is enough to give them weight when really the way the characters decide is so important. Imagine if Batman had just said "fuck it!" before he opened fire on that van. again great video. on a side note the idea that Pa Kent's death was pointless I always ask this. did you hear anyone asking why Clark hadn't figured out he could fly until he found the scout ship? That's what Kent's death was really for. to make that graphic at the start of BvS, "mankind is introduced to the Superman" happen. they wanted the destruction of metropolis to be his introduction. I think if the studio didn't make them cram Batman into the sequel it could have been a much better film with Superman being a not so terrible character.
hated that scene. Pa kent make no effort to get to safety didn't drag himself toward the bridge just hold up his hand as the dog make it to safety and superman who can run at the speed of light just stand there cause his dead held his hand up. Would had work better if he had started was half way toward his dead as his dead was reaching for him and then the tornado lift him upward as clark grab hold of a pole (something solid on the ground) and reaches out you hear his father say no don't expose yourself.. blah.. no I would still hate that scene. I just hate that his fatheer advice is let people die so they wont know you are special. What sort of teaching is that!!@! that just mess up
Yeah I think with better execution it could have been made clearer that Clark and his dad were making a deliberate choice. I think given the sci fi approach they took to the film it kinda makes sense that Pa Kent would be so cautious. He doesn't not what Superman is or why Clark has been sent here. He knows it must be something important so he doesn't want Clark to risk it by exposing himself before he knows why he's here. So from that point of view it's a pretty honest portrayal of how someone would act if they'd found an alien and raised it as their son without any idea what they were sent for. I think in the film they show that Pa Kent tries to teach his son good morals. But that "Maybe" scene didn't really have a moment where Jonathan acknowledges that he understands why his son saved those kids. I think like the tornado moment Snyder THOUGHT it was conveyed by the way he said "Maybe" but the backlash against it shows it really wasn't. "Maybe..Look I know you did a good thing son but there's more at stake here than just our lives and the lives of those around us." Just a little bit more to pull the story into focus. That's what BvS lacked too. It's actually a good story when you break it down but they struggled to bring that into focus for the audience.
The thing about this movie is they needed the extended cut, it makes more sense plus it's about Superman becoming Superman, it made him more human in that he grew up.
As someone who hated the theatrical cut, but admittedly liked the ultimate cut, these videos are necessary. They are far more reasoned than 99% of the fanboy videos calling the movie a "misunderstood masterpiece". Only by presenting honest and valid critique, with possible solutions, can we hope to better these movies. I wish Snyder would watch this video.
to be honest, all I hear from BvS haters are: why can't he smile more? why can't he do more right choices? and I'm like.. why can't a hero make mistakes and be worried about doing the right thing, and still be seen as likeable? people answer: "because he's superman, he's supposed to be perfect in every way" and I'd say bullshit, that is exactly the biggest flaw with superman: he's exactly want we want him to be, written to win and solve everything like it's always a peace of cake. well the world is more complicated than that, deal with it. one act of kindness does not cover for all the unknown possible bad consequences it might be affected by it. the point of BvS and MoS is to show that even having the power of a God has consequences no matter what u do, and even if you decide to do nothing. it doesn't matter how many people superman saves and inspires on screen, if we know that offscreen he is deciding to ignore. in BvS shows us what superman does when he has to deal with these choices of who to save, who to not save, and who is he responsible to care about in the first place? does a random human life matter more to him than the life of the ones he loves? at what point is it OK for superman to say: no, this is not my responsibility to deal with. or even: I am not mentality strong enough to deal with this situation
I never said 'right' choices. I said 'any' choices. I also didn't ask him to be perfect or for the character to go a certain direction - the reference to Indy is that this was supposed to be a summer blockbuster and that just making a hero likeable it okay - so it's not about him being 'conflicted' which is what so many people try to defend him as. He's passive, plain and simple. Nothing he does has any affect on the progression of the movie. It doesn't matter one single bit what he 'thinks' because he never says or does anything to given an emotionally resonant or internally logical response that would tell us who he is or what he wants or how he's actually feeling about things.
first people have to remember BvS is a follow up to MoS and there has been a timeskip between them. at the end of BvS he decides to follow his father's advices in helping humanity the best he can, despite not being ready for it. At the start of BvS we get to know him when he starts doubting that his decision was a good decision. he starts realising that despite saving people, that is still not goof enough for humanity, he needs to be more than that. the moment superman saves Lois Lane in Africa he commits a his first political act of putting a personal matter before the international safety boarder and almost declares a war due to his action. in BvS he contemplates this issue with Lois. she has an arc of regret for causing Clark in such a difficult position, and decides to clean his slate by investigating the incident. At the same time Clark tries to figure out through out the film where he fits in the world, as his actions has caused a lot of conflicted responses among humanity. his choices are not physical but mental and personal in the film, he tries to figure out how he can help people without being able to be there for everyone. as many Hollywood films uses action scenes to create cenarios for their character to grow in,BvS is all about that it is more important to avoid conflict at any cause, and rather focuses on the moments before and after a confrontation. where the herois forced to act when even tho there is no right answer to be found. supermans character learns to indure despite being constant in situations were there are both positive and negative consequences. his character arc is about if he can handle the power and responsibility that is given to him. which is what the movie is all about
This is really the best commentary on what was wrong with BvS that I've seen so far. There were lots of other things that were wrong about the movie, but characterization matters the most to me. Keeping the story the same but giving the characters more depth would have dramatically improved the movie. I thought it was stupid that Batman and Superman were fighting each other when they could have tried talking to each other, at any point. But Snyder felt that was what everyone wanted to see.
You should be a paid movie writter. I f**king cried. Even dough Clark dying is not that much emotional (because we know he's gonna come back, and there is not much time for the audience to care for him because it lacks a character arc) you made it so emotional and you added weight to the emotional momments.
I am reminded of Max Landis' video about the death of Superman. Ever since Star Trek II, death has had such complete non-permanence in film that it makes scenes like Pa Kent's death in the first good Superman film emotionally cheaper. You have to stop and remind yourself that Pa Kent is not coming back. I am actually pretty angry that people like Zack Snyder can be given two hundred million dollars to throw shit on the screen. All of the post-Nolan DC films should never have gotten past the script stage.
It's very true in the modern era that death and consequence has died of - it's part of the upcoming video I have on villains in the Marvel universe - and this film just sealed how wasteful it can be. I'm also in the same confused bubble as to why these films ever got greenlit!
For what it is worth, I think if you are going to bring a character back to life, Star Trek III is an example of the right way to do it. Spock is basically reduced to a MacGuffin for the majority of the film, and instead the deeper implications of how there is a world where dead things come back to life and what some people would do to gain control of it are explored. It is a well-written story, even if the direction and set design is strictly low-budget. Warners and DC need to really sit down and rethink their approach to their product.
This movie would have been 20 minutes long if Superman would just speak to batman like a normal human being. But you know... this Superman is "realistic" and "complex"....fuck this movie.
