Yes, if we did create artificial intelligence, super intelligence, that entity would probably advise us to voluntarily stop reproducing, because extinction would obviously end all problems. Our absence would be no problem, because we would not be around to know we were missing out.
Don’t get me wrong having good friends having good memories and good times is awesome but the majority of living is suffering. I would never bring kids here.
The problem with humanity is the lack of full development of the central nervous system for every human being. This is why there is a lack of empathy with many, who cause tremendous suffering for the rest of us. Until this is rectified, humanity will always be plagued.
I really liked your analogy about the unfulfilling job. Life is a job that you have to work at (24/7 until you die) so that you can maintain the burden that was forced on you without your consent. Good video.
I was 8 years old when I made my decision. I looked around me and saw the brutal truth about life - I have never regretted it for one nano second - I did the right thing this planet is a bloodsoaked manmade cesspit and it would be better if us humans ceased to exist.
Good metaphor. I am a tradesman and when I see young apprentices coming into the work place I have mixed feelings about training them. On one hand I want to help them persue and better their position (for safety and skill development). But on the other I see manual labour as a slave position - workhorse for the middle classes. High risks, low rewards and a burnt out body at latter part of one's life. I am definitely in favour of the AN argument.
I went through that as a professional nurse. I actually got married to get out of it...Husband offered me escape from it if I married him; it worked : ) Today I am an investor, providing a self-reliant life for my adult son.
@@TheFracturedfuture if they are both happy with the arrangement, I don't see why not, its a symbiotic relationship. We always try to use others to solve problems that we have in our lives.
Animals and most humans are not able to commit suicide. Because of that some of them have to endure unspeakable horrors. If one does not procreate one can be assured that none of one's offspring (with every kid you create a whole new lineage) will ever suffer from anything. Should everybody miss out on the wonderful stuff live has to offer only because a couple of wimps can't take a punch? YES: If you do not create anybody then their is not a single entity that could miss out on anything.
The big question still remains... WHY? Why is there anything and why/how are we here? What's beyond this reality? Is this a hell? Would extinction even solve the problem? On and on...
I'm total Antinatalist and think Schopenhauer is THE philosopher and of course I don''t want to come back to a world like this. I actually have standards.
Did you know in the later stages of Schopenhauer's life, he witnessed a teenager try to drown himself in a canal. Even with his strong convictions on the matter, he felt a primal need to rescue this boy from his own want to end his life. It floors me everytime I think of that story.
@@tadghostal8769People assume that having nihilistic or antinatalistic views automatically makes you a dick with no emotions. People can have antinihilistic views yet that doesn't mean their humanity goes out the window.
@@TheFracturedfuture It's the fact that these men have more of a moral obligation than normies that pass over a man in the street having a heart attack.
@@tadghostal8769 if Schopenhauer thought that suicide was a good idea he would have committed suicide himself . David Benatar is quite specific about this . Anti natalism isn't about killing yourself , it's about not creating life in the first place . A young person trying to commit suicide reinforces the idea that suffering is inherent in life .
Do you want to come back roll the dice to see if you would have a better or worse life - HELL NO! I have lived a pretty good life and I still would not want to come back to such a prison planet.
I hear you. I don't know your situation so I can't comment on it in any specifically supportive way, but can only say that there are always moments of beauty in life to be found. I'm not saying these make up for the pain - I wish you the best of all possible outcomes.
I'm so sorry. You are already very aware and conscious and precious. Meditate on how you feel without resistance and do Anapana breathing exercises those are very helpful. You are not alone.
The problem with the metaphor of the job is that in it the person who asks for that miserable work is “whishing” to do it. However, nobody, not born, is wishing to live.
Yeeha, and another piece of my faith in humanity is restored! 😁 And by that I mean: The hope in humanity's ability to obtain enough rational insight in the end to "make ourselves superfluous".
Excellent analysis. You raised many points I had not thought of, and your metaphors and analogies were well chosen to support your arguments. So many people misread Benatar, and think he is proposing suicide. He is most certainly not, but is merely considering the ethics of bringing new life into existence. Your analogy of the much hated job is spot on. Thank you for posting a most entertaining and informative video.
As far as physics is concerned the universe will come to an end, it will continue expanding till no point of light will reach another. In the meantime, we exist. even if we are in an experience machine free of suffering and death, we would still have to carry other accompanied existential burdens such as our being as apposed to not being. Choosing to spawn new consciousness is a decision I dont think anyone is currently capable of defending
Yep, I really hope the Big Rip hypothesis is true. Big Crunch / Big Bounce / Cyclical Universe, in contrast, would basically amount to a scientific confirmation of Samsara. Fortunately, the evidence seems to be pointing towards the Big Rip at the moment. And when it comes, that means R.I.P. indeed! 😁
Your story of recommending your "crappy" job to someone else is spot on. I have known people who have led lives plagued with crack addiction for years; who have been in and out of jail and in all kinds of trouble, and who still brought children into the world. I can't see what makes them think the child is quite likely to live the same wretched lifestyle or worse. This is another way you can look at the saying, "Misery loves company". You're living and crying the blues and you want to bring someone else here to do the same.
We are part of the universe - just as much as the stars and galaxies. We are the only part of the universe that, as far as we know, can consciously experience itself. And we fucking hate it. lol
Thanks for commenting - that's a great contemplation...we seek the happiness we don't have, or possibly can't sustain - like a slot machine that pays out, calibrated to pay just enough to keep you playing, expecting a jackpot?
When you understand how evolution works, it makes perfect sense that humans exist to WANT to be happy, not to BE happy. Once you develop some intelligence, you need to manipulate it. If you want a brain to do anything, you need to create the problem. Even when it comes to basic needs like thirst or hunger. The brain is a problem solving machine, and thus you need to create the problem. The Problem is suffering. But it has many other names. Want. Desire. Need. Urge. If you want a brain to be productive in any way, you have to impose suffering on it. You need to impose sexual frustration before you get an animal to have sex, for example. Nature has no interest in suffering apart from its ability to influence the likeliness of passing on the molecule to ensure its survival. Most of the human race is still completely owned by this nonsense. They’re still more obedient to their notions of nepotism, family superiority, nationalism, racism, than they are devoted to any high-minded ideal of civilisation or decency, or justice or fairness.
Sooner or later everyone will lose the magic and see the world through dead eyes. I've seen so many rich people guarding their posessions. Worrying about the weed in their lawn and daily problems. Desperately keeping themselves busy with something. But the only thing waiting is death. Once you understand that you almost long for it.
Not quite. I have known many people who were full of joy till the day they died. In fact, it's the people who are the most pro-natalist, with the largest families who are happiest when they pass. It is those who decide to be alone and horde their wealth, no matter how great that wealth may be, that pass away the most depressed.
You don’t understand AN. Invest more time. Arguments against AN are emotionally rooted. AN is logically irréfutable. No harm ever came from non-existence.
I find the symmetry to be the least convincing to non-philosophical people. If you want to convince non-philosophy types of Antinatalism, you must use the risk and consent arguments. It's hard to argue well against the fact that you *cannot* get consent for bringing someone into the world. If we cannot get consent from someone, it's fairly well accepted that you CANNOT impose your desires on this person. This is true whether or not the person is unconscious, and there's no reason why it shouldn't apply to someone who does not yet exist, but will exist, by your imposing your will on their existence. Risk argument. There's plenty of bad, but dishonest people can always argue that "Some people have good lives". The answer to this is to bring up that life could get *really* bad. There's no telling what will happen to earth. It turns out, Earth is crazy. We have nukes. We have disease. We have war. We have torture. Aliens are a possibility. AI is a possibility. The risks for a true hellscape are very real, and taking such a risk on an existence that must then face this existential and humanist risk, is utterly irresponsible. Risk and consent is all one needs. It's patently obvious that it's utterly deranged to bring a child into this world.
Well said Chris - thank you. Consent is the most powerful argument I can think of logically. I think those that are unconvinced of the logic here simply don't want to be convinced. There are certainly powerful biological motivators involved in wanting children for many (perhaps present company excluded.)
I think if you actually want to convince a potential parent, hit them in the feels: Don't shame them, don't moralize, but also don't make an extensive philosophical case. Start with what you know about them: No parent wants to see their child suffer. Praise this quality in them. Don't work against parental instincts, work with them. If you can get them to admit that, there is no arguing with the logical fact that the safest way to prevent your child from suffering is to not have it. Then stop pushing and let cognitive dissonance do its work. 😉
The asymmetry argument is not that the total amount of suffering outweighs the total amount of goods in life.the asymmetry argument state that there is suffering and goods in life .the person who is born and suffered in this life is harmed but a person who is not born and did not experience the goods in life is not deprived or harmed because there was nobody or no consciousness to miss those goods.this is the asymmetry and therefore it is better to have not come into existence.
Your job analogy is really good : it explains that anti natalists think this way because they think life sucks. If you think life is good, then it's hard to have that opinion.
I know this is an old comment but I just needed to say that even though we all have different lives and theres many people who enjoy living, its still not good to have biological children. We never know how they'll fair in this world. It's always a gamble to have kids. The one thing that's gauranteed is that we all die in the end and it's different for everyone. Most people die slowly and it's rare for us to have a quick death. There's an interesting Ted Talk about the four plus ways of how we die and dying slowly is the most common way.
Good balanced review on AN. May i suggest you look at Glynos's channel. He has lots of short sketch type videos, but also a lot of interviews, debates and hangouts.
Hey I would be interested if you had something to say about nonduality. You said, after death there will be only the world thats left, without the person.
...that would be a good topic for another video, but in short I don't know what happens after death (none of us do). I assume consciousness either takes form or does not - I think that covers the bases :)
I’ll sum it up “misery loves company!” Optimism bias is our Achilles heal. I would disagree about death... if it true that energy can’t be destroyed, then we’re essentially in a recycling program, what “form” we take is unknowable.
Hi Daniel! Even when life does not stink so badly, there’s always the chance that it will begin to do so. On the other hand David Benatar points to the intuitive fact that you cannot possibly be worse off in the counterfactual alternative on account of absent goods so there is no advantage in coming into existence. So my question is do you consider yourself lucky? (I think it is quite clear that every exister is comparatively worse off or disadvantaged)
Curator Bloggen - thanks for the comment. There are certainly moments where I consider myself fortunate to be conscious. If things go terribly at some point, there is always an...alternative. I think we feel suffering and joy in contrast to one another, so eliminating suffering entirely may not even be a good aim. I'll ride it out!
Jishnu it's been a while since I've watched my video here, but I would say pain isn't inherently bad, because "bad" is more of a moral stance. I'd say pain that is long in duration and excruciating and unnecessary isn't preferable, for almost everyone. Therefore, the absence of pain is more desirable in almost all circumstances.
We've evolved to avoid pain because prolonged pain or suffering is not good for the human body, that's why we as humans try to avoid it like the plague.
Sounds like a depressed person trying to drag others into depression just because they're looking for company. I've known people like that, being around them is indeed miserable.
What do you mean by - "moments of joy"...what a bizarre statement. I have sometimes wished I was never born...I disagree with you totally....and you are wrong. Read his last book "The human Predicament". What a load of twaddle you give against his views......Life is tragic - and for the very reasons you describe.
A Person Benatar himself admits there are moments of joy, as he uses this example in his pain/pleasure model... would you exchange an hour of extreme pleasure for 5-10 minutes of extreme pain. He’s aware of joy, but says it’s very fleeting, whereas pain lingers.
I'm not AN by most means. Yet, I hear why not having kids is a viable choice. I get that, and I get why that is something hard to do. I have heard many counter arguments to AN. I weigh in the middle of AN and Natalist. I get there is no "middle ground" but for me, there is, because I see the point of both. This reason comes in that both sides agree with the one factor not said. "Change" I get it though. I'm not AN so I'll get flamed. I'm not natalist, so I'll get flamed. What am I? Human. Who am I? I'm me. Honestly, I do lean a bit more to AN, but I could not identify myself as AN. Actually, I never would. I'm so much more than that one thing, or any one thing. ALL-IN-ALL great damn video and it's just as well-done as the original I listened to a few days ago. It's.... thought-provoking I must admit.
The pain of not existing is unbearable! We should have as many children as possible, so they can experience the pleasure of existence! Try arguing that without stepping on your philosophy. You can't. Yes, pain comes but pleasure comes as well. Not existing is something you never experienced or remember, you don't know the pain or pleasure of not existing because it's entirely subjective. I hope you mentally well.
OP, there is no pain, no suffering in non-existence. Something that doesn't exist cannot be unbearable. Only something that exists can be described as unbearable.
