@@zackshafto3040It's easy to judge from the safety of the real world. So that's what many do. Never considering what would be different if they were actually *living* in that world.
I’m not a big fan of retcons but I really like the evolution of the Brotherhood in terms of politics. They went from a group of survivors to a secret knightly order to a technological power player to a theocratic dictatorship with strong personality cult.
Admittedly I don’t really see the theocratic aspect. They definitely do have a cult of personality with Rodger Maxon but it doesn’t seem all that religious to me more like the veneration some US citizens have for George Washington. They do have a dogmatic following of the rules but that seems somewhat standard for an organization so heavily based on military practices. They don’t seem like the cult mechanicus but maybe they’re on their way there. Edit: got Arthur Maxon mixed up with Rodger Maxon
@@meinebosma Eh, not quite, but the Brotherhood is probably the most retconned faction in all of Fallout to the point you can't even give them a consistent ideology.
@@dylansmall9699 Yeah, they don't see Maxson as a living God or something like that, but their reasoning for what they do in F4 is clearly from a theological perspective. "It is so because it was always so because God did it so"
I don't necessarily think it's wrong for the Brotherhood to be portrayed as hypocritical. Many religious orders and fanatical groups will often become so dogmatic that their initial mission or ideology is buried under tradition. In fact, I think that can make them more interesting, as we've seen the Brotherhood constantly struggle with the idea of doing what's right versus what's dogmatic, such as in the FO76 storyline. It's possible there might be a schism that occurs in one chapter and ripples outwards to the rest of the Brotherhood. The mission and ideals of the Brotherhood is noble, but it can often become patronizing or isolating. I think writers should really juggle with this rather rather just saying "they're hypocrites so they're bad".
The Brotherhood are the only real shades of grey faction in Fallout 4 at all, I think there are significant oversights with the writing but it's still questionable whether they are really hypocritical beyond the very light toleration of peaceful Ghouls/Mutants compared to Synths. But Minutemen are the Yes Man faction so they don't have any ideals that conflict with yours, they just believe in defending people, and have a rich history of ... defending people and losing sometimes. Insitute are just evil scientists, Railroad are one note Followers of the Apocalypse, sure they have no regard for the consequences of their actions but their code doesn't go beyond Synth rights. I think the Brotherhood should just be less helpful, make the main quest not revolve around dangerous technology or some major threat. Let the player make up their own mind about the Brotherhood, not just "oh they helped me", or "these feudal knights kinda remind me of Fascism, Fascism bad." But not in a New Vegas way where they are just irrelevant jerks.
Yeah, like even Christianity, the largest cult in the pre war world contradicts itself going from Jesus being radically socialist saying you should help anyone in need regardless of your nations hate for them, that money has no place in the church and the world is a church and a lot more stuff. To now being the biggest proponent of modern capitalist fascism and the prodistant work ethic or whatever that means being rich is now viewed as good by god.
I'm not sure that's really hypocritical at all. Stating that technology should be controlled by a central power and then saying that YOU should be that power is not contradictory. (though it is authoritarian) They aren't really stopping people from helping themselves, since they don't collect hand-held weapons, or auto-docs, or computers, or robots. Just... power armor and Big Guns and nukes and synths. Stuff where the benefit to humanity is dubious beyond war. The problem is when they come up against large organizations like the NCR and decide to take their stuff by force. Or the Railroad and Minutemen, for a more sympathetic group. (Plus there's the East and West Brotherhoods, and one is much worse than the other. The West doesn't even pretend to have people's best interests at heart.)
This is the irony of the BOS, they started out as survivors of the military army, but over time and new generations later, they forget their origins and it's various members are split on their ideology.
I dint think it's the irony, but the point. To show the difference between them and the enclave. They were meant to be the Enclaves foil. Nice but naive, where as the enclave were evil and educated (in the sense of their ideology, not in the world). The biggest problem I have with the Brotherhood in 4, is the insistence on domination over the entirety of the land over an occupation, combing, then leaving. It seems to be replacing the enclave and losing its own ideology. Whereas the Enclave in even mods for 4 seem to switch and be the more "reasonable" of the 2 and especially out of all around.
This is why it kills me that the Midwestern Brotherhood was de-canonized. They were by far the most innovative and adaptable of the chapters we've seen. A simple rewrite would easily clear up the conflicts with the current canon. For example, move the events of Tactics to after the events of Fallout 2. This would make it so that the Brotherhood's encounter with the Enclave and the realization that they are no longer the technological big dogs in the Wasteland was the catalyst for the schism that saw the formation of the Midwest Chapter. Next, seeing as ED-E's recordings confirm the presence of Enclave in Chicago, make them the main antagonists instead of the Calculator because, let's face it, if a robot army like that had existed in prewar America, its remnants would be everywhere, not just in the Midwest. You could even make it so that the reason the Brotherhood crashed wasn't because they flew into a storm, which makes them seem pretty negligent, but were shot down by the Enclave. And the reason their power armor starts to look like a hybrid of Brotherhood and Enclave armor is because it is. They would start using components taken from the armor of dead Enclave soldiers to repair and upgrade their own armor.
In a hypothetical rewrite big robot army could stay and be present by having large stockpiles locked away in hidden/hard to access locations (like in New Vegs). Player could learned about it through hacking a terminal or finding documents. Behemoths could still be potentially added though being stored away in limited numbers for field testing that never came. That aircraft drone by all means should stay. Gaining access to it and restoring it to working order along with activating robots could definitely be part of reworked main quest and point at which player decides which organizations gets them (BOS, Enclave or third party) tipping the scale. Alternatively, rather then large robot stockpiles player acquires production blueprints of various robots, and then proceeds with either organization player decided to side with to capture old factories in industrial town, restoring them and starting production of robots. Acquisition of aircraft drone in this scenerio is also tool that tips the scale.
@@Gritz0003 The Midwest BOS and the events of Tactics are kind of in a canon limbo. The general events and factions took place, but the specifics (like even when it would take place either before Fallout 2 like it originally did or maybe after) are officially up in the air until stated otherwise later on.
@ 19:50 , factual error: Paladin Danse says that "the east coast chapter of the brotherhood of steel went through one ineffectual leader after the other," following Sarah Lyons death. Arthur was simply the latest one at the time of Fallout 4. It's not specific how many other elders were in between Sarah Lyons and Arthur Maxim
@@majestikmastrb8r689 true. But the timeframe originally talking about happens after FO3, and any DLC (that I'm aware of). That terminal lists the Elders *before* Lyons, not after.
@@vexile1239udging by your choice of pejoratives, I suspect you consider yourself "conservative" or "libertarian". Jesus was a big fan of inclusivity (Hebrews 13:1-3; 1 Peter 4:9; Matthew 25:35; Exodus 12:49; Matthew 25:40; Leviticus 19:33-34). We are all brothers under Christ; try to get along with your fellow human beings, even if they want you to call them by weird pronouns or have dumb ideas about guns, hmm? Maybe you can teach them a thing or two.
@@alaeriia01 neither I am human, political alignment is a concept that was created to divide humanity to make it easier to control them by those who harbour ill will towards others, just like those like democrats who demands and receive special treatment, just look at the criminal biden and clinton, those two families have broken so many laws that anything they accuse others of is what they have done
@@vexile1239 If you read the original Hebrew, you will see that that is a mistranslation. It should read, "A man shall not lay with a BOY as he would with a woman". It was banning pedophilia, not homosexuality.
i really wish there had been an outcast faction in fallout 4....'Lyon's Pride' or 'Lyon's Knights' or something that we could choose to support and help claim leadership instead of Maxsons 'the Enclave with better PR' faction.
Calling the Fallout 4 Brotherhood the "enclave with better PR" is completely disingenuous. The Brotherhood don't see the wastelanders as inferior and want to wipe them out, they actively recruit from them. The Brotherhood are also the only faction actually actively fighting against the dangers of the wastes like super mutants and raiders. None of the other factions do that other than just having the player do it.
Nor did the Enclave in Fallout 3. Colonel autumn wanted to unite the DC settlements and build a country. So yes, they are pretty much just the Enclave with better PR in 4.
@@thepax2621 or the few friendly super mutants we see, like strong or that village in new vegas. Their logic would be like meeting a bunch of raiders and deciding its okay to wipe out diamond city for being human XD
@@theadtheogrekiller5629 Ah Jacobstown and Lily... or Fawkes for that matter 🤷🏻♀️. Its illogical anyway, why insist on killing the few friendly Super Mutants? They can't reproduce, thats the whole downfall of the Master in Fallout 1. So they'll die out anyway, one day. Destroying the source of FEV makes more sense, wether its the Mariposa base or the Institute. Once you do that, the rest should take care of itself
I dont think Maxson saying "playing god" is an indicator of anything since you dont need to be religious to use it, or understand it. Gods in every culture create things and usually responsible for life. Maxson was using that term to describe how the Institute behaves and how he sees them as arrogant scientists who think they can play with nature.
@@goof_tv7829other idioms derived from Christianity: skin of your teeth, bite the dust, can a leopard change its spots and many common others. Not everything connected to Christian origins is bad
And much like the Astartes chapters, they self organise into distinct sub groups with different interpretations of their mission goal. Salamanders 👍 Marines Malevolent ☠
@@seanflanagan3940 it's not underrated, brotherhood of steel fans just lack the intelligence to understand any of it so they arent capable of agreeing
That's because it's bad take. Making sure raiders who are everywhere don't get things like power armor, suits that are basically freaking Gundams don't fall in their hands is a hard enough job. We already seen a chapter try to protect a area in D.C and it was a struggle just to maintain the status quo. Then after they pacify the area a bunch panzies on the internet call them fascist, you all are ridiculous
Can you speculate if the Midwestern brotherhood of steel is active? In New Vegas Ceasar mentions they captured brotherhood scribes further east that didn't know the name of the founder of BOS. Can this be the Midwestern BOS?
I wish Lyon’s group was a more permanent one that actually decided to split off from the main brotherhood faction. Creating their own version of it, it could add a more humanitarian, but flawed faction to the wasteland. Maybe it can be done in the future where we learn Lyon had some followers who kept his ideas to heart.
@@ShadowSonic2 I know but I’m just saying they could still have a faction who split and stuck with Lyons ideals. Would make for an interesting faction with antagonistic relations between them and the brotherhood
There is still some of that, they are clearly still fighting off mutants and institute in the Commonwealth. They are still helping, and they are very affective.
@@joecrazy9896 They’ve fought super mutants forever. What I’m saying is a split off away from the zealous technology hording we see in the east and again in 4 when they left Lyons way of doing it. I feel there’s room for his ideas to have caused some to split off from the main group. The actual outcasts now lol
I was just thinking of the Brotherhood today, mainly wondering why they didn't do Operation Paperclip 2: Electric Boogaloo with the Institute instead of nuking it
Likely because Bethesda only made two endings for 4, and the Institute needs to be a crater in three of those two endings. If anything, the Outcasts should have reformed and thrown Maxson to the mirelurks the moment he wanted to level a literal goldmine of tech.
Because the brotherhood has always feared innovation, or any tech more advanced than what they had at Lost Hills. They exiled Elijah because he wanted to improve and advance technology. They feared the enclave in Fallout 2 not because of their violence towards wastelanders, but because they could manufacture Vertibirds and Advanced Power Armor.
@@Sgt_Robo they never exiled elijah though? That old bastard made them fight a battle they couldnt win at helios and then fucked off when he realized things wouldnt be going like he had hoped.
@@Sgt_Robo They didn't fear innovation, they feared super weapons. Elijah didn't just "want to advance technology" he wanted to use some of the most advanced tech on the planet to create Brotherhood weapons of war. The Brotherhood are constantly creating new tech to assist with things like food development, armor innovations, or weapon upgrades, they're not against the evolution of technology, they're against it being used to make WMDs. That's why the Brotherhood doesn't trust the average wastlander with any technology, they can't be trusted to not make a super weapon out of it.
Playing as the brotherhood of Steel really made me appreciate the minutemen, the latter are a grassroots movement where the people are openly invited to join, with the main purpose of defending them and sharing their wins with humankind. Not hoarding tech and thinking they're above everyone.
Plus they are able to build communities and trade for each other and provide protection I still don't like fo4's factions but minute men are the best option
It kinda sucks that the minutemen clearly got the least writing budget of all the factions since like a colonial vibe good natured “rebuild society” is super fun and likeable
This is a why it’s a shame we as a character are forced to rebuild them that’s kinda lame especially for it to focus on all of that instead of anything fun
I belive that she was asssinated and Maxson covered it up, think about it NONE of the major characters that were in the BOS in f3 besides maxson are in the F4 BOS and the ones that are are loyal to maxson no matter what.
@@Pigness7 A very good possibility. But I believe Maxon exiled her instead of killing her, because he looked up to her as a big sister if the dialogue in Fallout 3 is any indication.
@@Pigness7 or bethesda killed her off with no thought because they wanted maxon to become the high elder. theres no implications about her death at all. any speculations are head canon.
@@anathame3649 At the risk of reading too much into it, I felt they killed them off as a statement because of how much criticism they got for the BoS being "out of character" in Fallout 3. It was Bethesda saying "you don't like Lyons? Fine, they're gone and now they have a new Elder, and he's very angry about stuff, did you hear his speech about abominations? happy now?"
@@MediumRareOpinions Bethesda definitely felt bad about the criticism they received from the fanbase, and in Fallout 4 they did a lot to fix a lot of that like all settlements having crops and generators along with a clean water source. those are good things, but I think Bethesda should do their own thing when it comes to making their games, Fallout 3's Point Lookout was the best DLC in the series and I think it should serve as the schematics for how they should make future games. keeping most of the fallout 3 mechanics the same, improving dialogue options and player choice consequences, and combining science fiction with cosmic horror. also the D.C. Brotherhood was a unique chapter, technically excommunicated. so it's perfectly fine for them to change the nature of the group. I feel like Fallout 4 doing a 180 with the BoS kind of wasted a lot of work into the FO3 BoS
If only Sarah Lyons had survived, I think she could have fully realized the vision her father had, I really hope that her death is retconned at some point, say like how the fallout 4 quest mod Project Valkryie does, where she faked her death and left to premt a coup against her as the rank and file become more and more radicalized, turning into what they became in fallout 4.
I think they should become more Monastic Knight like, ie: Templars. Some of their rigidity works, it gives them character. But I think a better way to do it with minimal tweaks is this: Their capital and main bases are fortified labs that have towns of non knight citizens around them. They fight to protect the citizens, and the citizens farm and produce goods for the Brotherhood. People can join, but have to accomplish a quest first. Ghouls and super mutants can live in their regions, but have to fight in auxiliary units to prove loyalty. They still raid for tech, but use it to help their citizens also (better meds, generators, purifiers, etc). The brotherhood is good, but it does need to account for growing population and think this is a good way. Make them the nobility to a post apocalyptic society.
That sounds like 40k :D They hunt for tech (stc), they are big knights but only few are accepted (astartes), they have tech labs(mechanicus), Supermutants and ghouls can live but have to serve (penal legions and ogryns), they hate/kill ferals and unwilling mutants (xenos)
It's kind of funny how Caesar of all people calls the BOS a dead end, when his own Legion is equally doomed to inevitably tear itself apart from the inside, and that's if they're successful at the second battle of Hoover Dam!
"It takes one to know one" Both are dead ends, at least in the way they are now, ironic how they are opposite of each other and yet doomed to fall all the same
@@TsukihiKaguya Indeed. Both factions are completely unsustainable in the long term. The Brotherhood seems to be more of an opposite to the Legion than the NCR in a number of ways.
The Legion only really succeeds if you save Caesar, once the Legion inevitably wins the battle of Hoover Dam(even without your help) they take over Vegas and make it their new capital. Caesar would slowly groom the Courier to be the next in line Caesar because that's what we actually see in game him being so open to us and even making a gold mint coin with our likeness. And so give it time and they would make reforms in Vegas while NCR is scrambling to get anything done back home. In time the Legion would cut off supply lines leading down to Mexico and eventually merging both the Legion and NCR societies into one. The workforce being the NCR and the military force being the Legion. A new hybrid empire that embodies only the good aspects of both societies while discarding the bad ones. This is Caesars vision essentially it is his "synthesis" that he talks about but it's all very vague for us to get the full picture in one glance. I believe this would lead to a great chapter in humanity's path in the Wasteland. I still believe Mr.House ending to be the best however if only because it offers so much more with less chance of failure to occur.
In fallout New Vegas, Veronica mentions that the brotherhood members would sometimes get into fights/ arguments that resulted in some of brotherhood members getting killed by other members of the same chapter of the Brotherhood, and it's said to have happened many times before in Veronica's chapter of the brotherhood. Ironic that a faction that prides itself for its military quality training and personal, lack physical and mental restraint in some individuals.
Find me a professional military organization that has 0 instances of infighting resulting in the deaths of one or more of their soldiers lol; that’s not unique to the brotherhood.
the legion show up and go "give us everything you have and there's a chance we won't kill you." but at least they don't prance around expecting you to be greatful
@@angelphoenix7784 They said they took the Prydwen's reactor from "an Aircraft Carrier", but Carriers have multiple reactors. So taking one wouldn't destroy the city.
@@josephgrahm4713 We honestly don't know, though it doesn't sound like something the Brotherhood would do unless they deemed it as absolutely necessary, like life or death. Rivet City probably got messed up but they wouldn't displace and kill hundreds of people when they definitely would've had other options
The point you made about the BoS opposing the NCR because they were a threat to the BoS's dominance over the region provides a better explanation for why the Arthur Maxson east coast chapter opposes the Institute. Selling it as a kind of holy war instead of a consolidation of power ensures that the rank and file will be more invested in the pursuit.
I get why they exist but IMO stop forcing them im places they should not be in, or forcing a narrative to include them. Create a new faction please and keep the BOS consistent Like IMO the Atom Cats should have been the regions defacto Power Armor group with a different militant group to be anti-Institute
I'm in the same boat after doctor li left for the commonwealth and i found out that 4 take place there even before finding out they were I knew it was gonna be fallout 76 broke the lore tho
Agreed, I get that the brotherhood (a west coast group) could travel all across the continental US especially with their near monopoly on advanced pre-war tech but if thats the case and they have that kinda outreach, why would they remain so steadfast in the past? why not, for example, establish a proper government system and ya know, actually rebuild civilization from the meager standing it holds now in fallout lore? The only real faction we’ve seen actually trying to rebuild pre-war government structures is the NCR, but if the BoS has so much overwhelming power, they could easily rival proper government factions like the NCR, especially in area’s outside of the NCR’s reach. Idk seems like Caesar definitely has a point in calling them a “dead end.” 200 years is a rather long time for complete lawlessness, and I just figured a 200 year old faction would have more of a vested interest in trying to restore at least part of that pre-war stability. At this point the BoS seems like nothing more than a continent spanning scavenger/raider clan than “defenders of post-war civilization”
Well, all groups in Fallout 4 - except the Institute itself - are anti-institute! Hell, everybody blows it up (except the institute!)! That's IMHO why all the factions (except the Institute under new leadership!) are simply dumbasses, even if they don't want to make synths: Just use everything else in there! I mean they produce food, water, clothing, weapons, armor etc. and have a modern facility with a great standard of living! Then again: Most factions in Fallout are just stupid! Hell, nobody cares to clean up the places they inhabit or to rebuild! Now, most of them are like squatter-hippies and basically useless! Hell, even the bigger fish like the NCR don't have stuff like say Pre-Fab-Structures for military bases or much in the way of an airforce (they have what? One truly working vertibird - Bearforce One - and that's it?)
I know this is a not a popular idea, but I personally liked Lyons Brotherhood of Steel the most. It showcased a good evolution of perspective for the brotherhood, after all, what is the point of hording technology, at the cost of humanities resurgence. The Brotherhood of Steel would make a good faction to lead humanity into a new golden age.
@@asentrybustingmedic6288 Yea, thats something that seriously goes under looked, Thanks to Lyons allowing the Lone Wanderer to join the ranks, they were able to comepletly set back the Enclave years, if not centuries in power and tech.
I have to disagree here, while the Lyons Brotherhood was good for humans, they were still, extremly racist against mutants, as mentioned in fallout 3, they shoot ghouls on sight, something the brotherhood in fallout 4 does not even do, since something like that is not mentioned there at all, and goodneighbour there is out in the open and the brotherhood leaves them be, while in fallout 3, the ghouls had to hide in necropolis, and they do not hide from the super mutants at all. The best brotherhood chapter, in my opinion, would be the Midwest Brotherhood, as they are also harsh, but support villages and cities, in exchange for new recruits, but above of all, they welcome sentient deathclaws, supermutants and ghouls into their ranks, creating a true cooperation amongst all the human, and mutant races, there is hope that some of it is still canon, as it is mentioned in fallout 3 and 4, that the expedition to the midwest did happen, and contact was lost.
I agree with this that fallout 3 brotherhood is a good evolution of the faction. Despite still having their issues, they realize the current status quo won’t get them or the wasteland anywhere. Even old fallout games and new Vegas knew this. The good endings for the botherhood made them more open, and make sure technology is in the right hands as opposed to hoarding it.
Feels like average Twitter discourse. "This group is bad, therefore we need to change it." BoS weren't meant to be the good guys. As you pointed out, they had obvious flaws since the first games. Let them be what they are. Turning them into sanitized, do-gooders isn't the answer. If BethSoft really wanted to have a "nice power armor faction" they could have the BoS destroyed and make a new faction. But that takes too much creativity, something sorely lacking these days. And to reiterate someone else's point, the "1,000 years of darkness" thing doesn't seems like allusion to the "Not-C" idealogy. It's much more a religious term, 1,000 years was used to just symbolize "a really long time" or "as long as you can imagine". That's probably why it was used by that 20th century group. And a final thing, being hierarchical and having authority over others isn't inherently wrong, literally every government ever does that. Treating hierarchy as a moral wrong is just stupid. Feels like teenage daydreaming stuff.
Seems overly aggressive in response, but you do you. As to your last paragraph. I think from our current understanding of how to run society, governments are necessary in at least some form or fashion. However, allowing fallible, flawed humans to have executive authority over other flawed, fallible humans really is a disaster. Crack open any history book at any point in history and you can find corrupt governments committing some new genocide (usually multiple within century spans.) If not government, look at the rate of sexual and physical abuse from authority figures to kids, or the near endless exploitation under capitalism. Sure, good, true leaders exist, but they are rare. So I would argue that you are right that hierarchies are not morally wrong (by american moral standards) by default, but ethically I'm not sure they fit the bill unless strict conditions are met. I definitely don't think it's "teenage daydream" stuff.
@@hollyjolli To your flawed humans governing flawed humans point, I totally agree. To add another layer to it, I hate the term "you do you", it only works when there's a strong moral framework. Otherwise you just get rampant moral degradation and societal collapse.
@@kenu995very presumptuous to think this guy just wants a nice good faction instead of him just pointing out basic flaws in this group and their ideology which often just comes down to bad writing. Moral degeneracy is also a reactionaries favourite tool that means nothing gay people kissing or people marrying more then one person or trans people being aloud to exist isn’t what will make societies crumble.
@@predaderpgaming1042 I guess the tone I got from the video was the not so uncommon "because this media/company is ok with portraying this thing, it must be endorsing this thing" that seems to happen time and again on social media. Had to look up reactionary. I didn't say any of that, but if holding the society I live in to a higher standard is reactionary, I'm a nuclear power plant.
Wasn't that the point, that they are fundamentally flawed faction, one of many extreme responses to the trauma of the world almost completely destroyed by a nuclear annihilation.
Fallout New Vegas has always had the most interesting portrayal of the Brotherhood for me, because of how many outside opinions we see. Whether or not you like Caesar or House, they make salient points that the Brotherhood are hoarders who are a danger to those around them. From a purely practical perspective, you can absolutely understand why House isn't too fond of fanatics in power armor that have a large quantity of pre-War weaponry. The NCR also doesn't like them too much, on account of the NCR-Brotherhood War... which the Brotherhood started, on account of their certainty that only _they_ have the right to technology, attempting to quash one of the only states that maintains something close to Pre-War living. Additionally, in some endings, the BoS have been described by Tvtropes as "Basically raiders with power armor." Fallout New Vegas says that not only is it a slippery slope for the Brotherhood to become religious fascists, they're already close to the bottom of said slope.
Religious fascists is a weird term since there has never been a GENUINELY religious fascist regime, all the fake Catholic regimes like those in Italy and Croatia resembled something more akin to "pagan Caesarism" in the words of Portugal's Salazar. I think its telling just how athiest our world has become today when the go-to word when describing unreasonably barbaric and fanatic apes is "religious".
I think their organization should've changed once the danger of losing technology was no longer as great. I think they also made the mistake of focusing on military technology while ignoring agricultural tech and stuff that can actually rebuild the world. Its better to build a house than build a laser rifle.
I feel bad for Veronica, since they are her family after all, but I agreed with Mr. House how dangerous and ridiculous they are: they are dead end. They won't help to rebuilt post-war America, they are okay to let rest of the world rot, just like that.
The west coast brotherhood perhaps but thje east coast isn't like that, especially not under the Lyons. I find the Lyons brotherhod a lot more intrestign thean the dogmatics on the westcoast.
I also like that they’re not portrayed as super badass. They’re actually sort of looked down upon, especially by people like Caesar and Mr. House (Especially Mr. House). Like Mr. House basically says “No, they’re not unbeatable knightly warriors, they’re a bunch of neurotic weirdos playing army in their bunkers.”
The real problem with the Brotherhood and Enclave is that if they weren't the way they are. But acted like rational organizations. They would be able to restore, and thus end Fallout. Also, they are the remnants of the Old World. They tell us something about why the nuclear war happened in the first place. As they are echos of the pre-war civilization.
The Brotherhood should have established cities and towns and formed a country of their own by now. They could educate the wastelanders, help them with agriculture and accept them as auxiliary forces to deal with raiders or wildlife. This would give them legitimacy and effectively become a nation in a few decades. However, they are too dogmatic and stubborn for their own good. So wastelanders do it for them, with mixed results.
Fallout 1, actually a cool faction but not to important, Fallout 2, not sure if they are in but I think they are mostly the same, Fallout 3 is a absolute armada of thousands of soldiers, trucks (for transport, to hard for in game) and vertiberds, Fallout 4, Nazis and a zeppelin, Fallout 76, hell, Fallout New Vegas, pretty cool, but gonna collapse soon.
@@BatMan-sg9kh oh boy, they have blood type tattoos, just like the SS division, they have a complete NO GO for non human creatures, like Non feral Ghouls, Super mutants (like strong or fawkes) and synths, so practically, nazis.
@@alternax9751 You're propagating propaganda. The gunners are the ones with blood type tats and the BoS in the commonwealth show tolerance for ghouls and super mutants so long as they're sentient (or else they'd have cleared out all the several ghoul sanctuaries), they only have issues with actual threats to the Wasteland and ghouls and super mutants are pretty high up there. As for synths, they aren't humans, they're robots that the institute used for war and espionage so they have every right to eradicate them since their very existence is a threat that none of us can deny. Should the technology fall into their adversaries hands such as the actual Nazis in the game, the Enclave, then you can only imagine what would follow; it's act of pragmatism rather than morals and ethics.
Something I find funny about the Appalachian brotherhood is that despite their supposedly altruistic goals, they are a separatist group from the US army. So despite it being not too long after the nuclear war, people are flocking to a faction which stands in direct opposition to the pre-war military and government.
The government that eroded civil rights? That violently suppressed labor strikes? That spied on, abducted, and murdered dissenters? That interned Chinese-Americans? That colluded with megacorporations? That was _controlled by the Enclave?_ I ask you: why should such a government be owed even the barest allegiance?
Personally I prefer the BoS being flawed. The idea of some morally perfect faction rooming around being overpowered superheroes isn’t particularly interesting. I’m a big fan of the most powerful groups in the wastes being morally grey like the Brotherhood or NCR while the more upstanding and virtuous factions are restricted in capacity or reach like the Followers or the Minutemen.
@@couchman-sw6jy The perfect word is the most simplest. Problematic is not the perfect word. It's the overused word, and has too much baggage. Best to avoid Tumblr words at all costs.
"In the case of the raider gang: the vipers" 6:29 _shows an image of the fiends_ understandable how that mistake was made. you dont really run into vipers much past the early game
Honestly with the exception of Fallout 3, the Brotherhood is probably the biggest secret bad guy, only being the "good" option when there are no better ones.
I generally appreciate your content, and I'm not exactly a fan of the Brotherhood myself (as I generally find militaristic groups dull and find authoritarian elitists grating), but this sounds more like a (well-edited and eloquent) Reddit post than a well-researched lore video that tries to remain balanced and look at all the angles. Errors and assumptions from the idea that the Brotherhood looking for dangerous tech somehow means that your average settlement will lose access to laser rifles or food purifiers to the idea that they didn't actually teach how to respect and use tech; that last one is exactly how the NCR went from a small community that didn't know about crop rotation to a budding nation with paved roads and laser fences within the Vault Dwellers lifetime. There is obviously too much within the video to approach in a comment but I wanted to at least write a little, as you are usually much more balanced than this. Ultimately I feel arguments like the overall stance of the video come from a place of 'real world' values and politics than they do objective looks at the setting and the contexts of it, and factions places within it. It's a largely lawless hellscape and the only authority anyone has is that which they can enforce with, well, force. The Brotherhood's harsh nature and stances are part of why it's endured so long - long enough to actively save or play a part in saving the world from new apocalypses or disasters. This is a setting where places like Big MT exist and you can't turn over a rock without tripping over a Mad Scientist(!!) and his 'hidden' base.
They canonically helped the Vault Dweller in stopping the Master, and Scribe Vree's notes a path to confronting the Master with his plans flaws. They stopped Doctor Blackburn from polluting the water table (iirc) with a FEV 'Behemoth' strain that would have turned most of humanity into ravening cannibalistic hulks and resulted in a second apocalypse. They might have stopped the Calculator from conquering humanity with a robot army. They played a part in stopping the Enclave the first time and did most of the actual warfare the second time while we were napping. Not one other faction off the top of my head has actually done anything to 'save' humanity other than the BOS in the entire franchise. Now, that's potentially because they are the writers pets, but that's an entirely different conversation. What's relevant is that little details like them becoming the Ecowarriors of Steel and settling down to build schools would have, sadly, meant they weren't there to save humanity several times over. None of this is to say the Brotherhood isn't flawed, terribly so, or that they aren't in danger of going somewhere dark and ending up villains, of course. It'll be interesting to see where they go longterm.
I couldnt have say it better myself. I also would add that the Brotherhood is in fact a meritocracy its just pure coincidence that the Maxson are more qualified to be High Elders.
Such is a big issue right now, the people have forgotten how to split fiction from reality. Though their harsh nature isn't even a lore point until later in the series. In fallout one they are heavily isolationist until they begrudgingly intervene to help the wastes from the present threat of the supermutant army. In fallout 2 the brotherhood is even more isolationist to the point of waning influence and power in the wasteland but a low enough profile to remain autonomous of the growing factions at the time. In 4 especially the bos acts out of character and this in turn has been extrapolated to be the brotherhoods attitude in totality when frankly they are just nerds made by nerds using a DND analogue.
TheBrotherhood of Steele is not problematic, on the contrary. The main problem lies within RadKing himself, as his personal ideology shines through this video. Democracy does not work in a world, where everyday can be your last, because of threats like Supermutants, Raiders or even Deathclaws. You need structure in such a world and letting everyone decide who the next leader is, will end in a desaster as not the best military leader but the most popular one gets elected. Every day is a fight regarding survival and now think about what happens if you need to vote. "Should I vote A or B? I have no idea, who is better as my family did get slaughtered by Raiders and I have other problems, so my vote is meaningless" In short in this world you MUST descriminate against outsiders or else you will be the first one who dies. Always look at the world this faction inhabits and you will see that tolerance is a luxury and that a dictatorship in such a world might not be your prefered system but it is the best system in this world
@Roberto The Super Mutant Ok I should've phrased this better, I meant something like "Bethesda tries not to make the BoS the main faction in every game"
I found you about a year ago when I was in my deepest woes of depression. Your videos helped distract me and relax myself until I could sleep. Thank you man, your videos are amazing and you’ll always have my support.
Question: I have only played the newer games so i never knew that different regions had different elders. Is there a high-elder existant during the events of Fallout 4? If so, do we have any knowledge on them?
Bethesda is hilarious. Realizing they made the BH wayyy too righteous in 3, they turned them into stand in Nazis in 4. Yet, wrote them in a way where every thing they every did was rational and objectively correct considering the context.
It's fiction, and it's near grimdark at that. Everyone is awful. The whole point is to show how it's almost impossible not to be another monster when the world itself is monstrous.
Just because it is fiction doesn't mean we can't have these discussions. Not only that, but your take is rather cynical, and as we have seen lately, a belief Bethesda has. I still remember when Bethesda was shocked when most of the players in Fallout 76 would help each other out instead of trying to kill each other. Sure, it's just a video game, but I think it serves some kind of proof that people are more willing to work together and rebuild society than let the chaos consume them. We've seen this throughout history. It's how the first civilization was ever born.
@@rivera229Exactly. Times of crisis might bring out the worst in humanity at times, but it's also when we shine at our greatest. There are countless examples of humans coming together and helping eachother out in times of strife throughout history, and pretending that humans are doomed to always repeat the same mistakes seems like a doomer take that discourages taking any action.
As a massive fan of the brotherhood this was a well made video, the diverse nature of the brotherhood chapters means that certain chapters will have different views from each other, ultimately I’m certain that different chapters have better chances of evolving and reforming than others.
I've been really enjoying your uploads. I appreciate the love you have for the franchise, even as someone who hasn't played much of em. You make it so enjoyable and pleasant to watch, keep it up ^_^ hope y'all are doing well
FO4 kind of paints a picture of an overzealous, foolhardy Brotherhood. In my opinion, the times where the Brotherhood truly shine are in FO3 where they take this sort of proxy stance as the Capital's protectors, at least within the immediate ruins (regardless of what the Outcasts might say) as well as in Tactics. Whether you consider Fallout: Tactics as canon in your zeitgeist or otherwise, we can't forget that at least at one point, they were portrayed as rational enough to be able to adapt to overcome barriers E.g: by accepting Ghouls, Tribals, Super Mutants, and even Intelligent Death Claws as recruits. Just my two... Anyway, Lyons for Life!
To be fair, Elder Lyons only started to give a damn after he got PTSD from traversing the Pitt. After that nightmare he had support from 75% of the BOS East to switch priorities with the remaining 25% becoming Outcasts. This support erodes following the Broken steel DLC where the brotherhood took on the responsibility of distributing free water to all settlements in addition to eradicating super mutants, the enclave and protecting people from raiders. Lyons was also an old guy, after Sarah gets killed (hopefully in action and not by her own ppl) the fractured BOS went back to their original mission under Maxon in Fallout 4 unifying the outcasts in the process. Point is the BOS really are at there core a bunch of raiders larping as pseudo knights.
Well, it happens a lot in real world history. Schisms do tend to cause the followers to turn away even more eagerly from the common ideas, and it gives a rise to extremism.
i only completed one plot in FO4, the brotherhoods main storyline. to me it was like the army experience of fighting for a greater cause with the resources to do it. gaining superiority by knowing knowledge and technology is power, to me society will resume faster if they win. it would return to normal after they took over our species would be safe. they only care about stopping the murder robots/bandits/mutants. and they dont want Humans destroying humans with tech theyd prevent the war from happening again
The fact you used the term "problematic" saddens and disappoints me. There are a myriad of better terms, even just controversial, that would be better. Ad Victoriam.
I must be infected by the internet because every time I see the term problematic I imagine some soy boy from Starbucks talking about how toxic something is
The Brotherhood of Steel is religious? That's a massive, massive jump. Having a book of rules and swearing to follow it isn't a defacto religion. The Brotherhood applies an knightly approach to it's organisation, even if it's moral take has always been off, but it's not a religion.
At least within FO4 the factions make more sense if you see them as religious cults, not political or social ideologies. Each believes that they are the one, true way. Though they tolerate one group, the Minutemen, all others are considered heretics and should be wiped out.
All people and groups are religious and religions by definition. The distinction is between hard and soft religion. Soft would be defined as all forms of religion and religious acts that fall under general definition. Hard defines all that closest fits the core concepts of religion. The brotherhood does not fall under hard religion. It definitely falls under soft. To be honest the brotherhood isnt really problematic. They have always been one of the more moral by modern standards groups. Imagine how much damage someone with a mini nuke launcher can cause. The bos out right stop people from using such tech.
@@carlasghost656 That's writing to make a game work and not a faction's lore/background being religiously motivated. I know we're talking about a fictional universe here, but fiction lives and dies by the consistency of its writing. The BoS isn't written as a religious faction, so saying "Yeah but if you look at it like this..." doesn't really matter. The author's voice matters - especially in a video that's supposedly explaining a faction and its lore. The is really more of a alternative take at best.
@@magnuserror9305 I disagree. Humans are social animals, but the term "religion" carries a certain weight. Calling "consumerism the new religion" doesn't make it a religion as such, just something that people seem to invest in and strongly. If everything were a religion you wouldn't need separate definitions like philosophy or belief system. So again, saying that everybody has a set of values or shared philosophy isn't the same as having a religion. The BoS to my mind doesn't fit into either your "hard" or "soft" definitions of religion.
you might think he's right or he's wrong, but you know what's not wrong? yeah that's right, the fact that another settlement needs your help, here I'll mark it on your mao
I ALWAYS go with the brotherhood of steel… if the world ends and we need a strong force who’s willing to do what needs to be done… todays world has shown that we need brave strong men more than ever.
I find it funny how when the BoS in Fallout 3 made it their mission to kill all the Super Mutants, that's "heroic", but when they did the exact same thing to Synths in Fallout 4, it's "discrimination". I guess the problem with Super Mutants is they don't have boobs and don't try to pull off a "damsel in distress" routine before trying to kill you. The BoS and the NCR are probably the best people could be in the world they live in. It's easy for us the player to know what's right from wrong when we're physically removed from the danger and even discomfort, control a hero strong enough to take down an entire brigade of enemies, and even have a reload option should things go wrong. If we were playing as actual mortals, things would get a lot more 'gray' very quickly. Yes there are factions which are more morally pure than the BoS, but they don't last long. The Minutemen for example did have that moral purity. But face it, they would've died were it not for the Sole Survivor. Their legacy would've been a *raider gang* that formed from their remnants. It turns out soldiers need food. That means they need to be paid. That means there is no such thing as a purely charitable protector. Somebody, somewhere, who works for a living, has to provide resources which will go to the soldier, who doesn't produce anything except protection. That's why in real life militaries and police departments fall under governments, which collect taxes, under threat of violence. We try to civilize it as much as possible, but *any* government is fundamentally a gang running a protection racket. But it's mandatory. Try to avoid it and you'll just get a more violent version of it. So the fact the BoS is running a protection racket isn't enough to make them the bad guys. They aren't decadent. The Elders aren't living in luxury, spending resources on frivolous comforts. All their resources go into energy weapons and power armor, which by the way is necessary in a world where Super Mutants and Deathclaws are things.
@@waleedkhan2991 Exactly they are a great faction to compete in the wasteland because of all the issues listed in the video. Pretty much becuase the stories around them write them shelves and they are an easy faction o route for and against.
They're a great faction, but they should only be that - *a* faction. Forcing them into every setting and creating plots around their ideology _(3, Steel Reign)_ makes them seem like they're the focus of the series.
@@a.monach7602. Interplay was literally planning to send these guys to Florida and Alaska; This was clearly the intent well before Bethesda got involved.
@@dragonbornexpress5650 _Really?_ Wouldn't surprise me, as Interplay did make some questionable decisions back then. Still - making the Brotherhood the focus isn't a good idea, regardless of developer.
"Mm, excuse me, raider-boss? Can we respect human rights and use voting system to decide who would be our next raider-boss?" "Well, that's a great idea, raider-minion! We are not some kind of brotherhood of steal after all!" And thus they created egalitarian utopia that last many thousands years... Raider-topia recently receive major influx of population due to mass migration of twitter-people
I prefer Elder Lyons’ version of The Brotherhood. They actually looked after the people as opposed to the high-handed, self-righteous and anti-mutant sentiment that is most of their iterations.
So you like the ruined brotherhood. A group can still be “bad guys” while being a great faction. Hell, the brotherhood aren’t even really good or bad, they have a goal and they attempt to complete it. The brotherhood being turned into the hood guys in 3 is just lazy writing.
@@Dap1ssmonk Oh great, another BOS purist. You people are the worst and are the reason the BoS is stuck in a perpetual limbo because the one series mainline where they changed the BoS, you bitched and moaned despite the fact the whole interesting part about the BoS is seeing their changes between chapter to chapter. What's bad writing isn't to turn the BoS into the good guys for once, what's bad writing is to make the BoS a static faction that never changes ever because if not you'll moan and complain. I mean the BoS trying to do better in Fo3 isn't even poorly written - they're dealing with massive consequences for it like the fact they're completely stretched thin and can barely deal with the mutant threat much less were able to deal with the Enclave without Liberty prime, and also the fact an entire faction of outcasts split from them to go do the BoS original mission. *You* are the ones encouraging bad writing by never letting the BoS change.
@@TheRedKing247 if the characters had left anything close to an impact on me, I’d agree with you. But since they’re there to be the generic hood guys and because fallout 3 has no real choice in the main story, I hate them. If they had been in a better game I may have liked them. Of course no one’s gunna want change when the one example of change is bad. Bethesda can’t write since half way through oblivion and it saddens me.
I listen to these while I work, it's a place called the homestead harvest restaurant in Cumberland mountain state park, TN, if you find yourself down this way, feel free to stop you and whomever you bring will be on me. As always, thank you for the content.
The way people have begun to use it to be extra sensitive has made me hate the word. I know a person is someone in not going to like is if they describe a joke in a show "problematic"
The Fallout Tactics Brotherhood of Steel is the best one that was operating. The Fallout Tactics story is personally one I like. The idea of the Calculator was very cool. It's like Skynet from Terminator in way. Though a group of antagonists using the ai network and armies to take over the continent would perhaps have more potential for story endings.
the issue of synths, leads to the worst faction namely the railroad, who will risk humans to preserve artificial life that cannot advance humanity beyond its battery life and as the institute show, a corrupted synth can become a murderous machine while thinking it is human. the brotherhood east coast chapter may seem fanatical but their stance against human created abominations is true as sooner or later these abominations will become dominant leading to the extinction of mankind. while strong and a handful of other super mutant are the exception, these greenies kill and eat people. then you get the terrible humans like raiders but the legion and enclave show the worst of mankind.
The Brotherhood is willing to kill many exceptions and people who advance life even though they themselves will not do the same and you fail to mention how they treat ghouls who are still people
I'm going to paraphrase the venerable Mr. Caption; "Thanks to their big fuck-off sky boat, we'll never have a Fallout game without the Brotherhood now."
@@James-ne3lc I mean everyone has it rough, not only them. If you want to take it logically, they are the most effective at dealing with every threat in the wasteland because they have firepower, technical knowledge, manpower and training. They would be my best bet for surviving the wasteland.
Ad Victorum. Better option than the nerds or race traitors. Still a good video. It's techno-feudalism in a savage age. Caesar is trying the same thing, minus the technology.
I love the brotherhood as a faction because of their flaws. In rl there is in my opinion not a single organisation/government without flaws. This is why fallout as a franchise interest me so much. Because they never have made any faction without flaws. Even the followers of the apocalypse have their flaws. ^^
To me one of the main draws of fallout is that there are no morally good factions, only varying degrees of evil fighting to survive in an irradiated wasteland.
@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandleI'd say the followers of the apocalypse are arguably "good." To me it's moreso that most people in the wasteland are too preoccupied with surviving to go out and do random good deeds, not that all the factions are morally bad
Dude, flaws? They literally go against what they claim to be doing. They arent saving humanity from anything . They mass murder human beings made with fucking D N A because they arent FLESH human beings. That's it. They murder innocents and steal resources from settlements to aid them in mass murdering those innocent people because they're the absolute closest you can get to nazis in fallout
I have to say, I kind of agree with Maxson's view on synths. There *is* a valid argument to be made about them being placed where you want the damage to be done and then flipping a switch. What would the worst-case scenario look like? You need only look to Star Wars and the Clones to know what exactly can happen. And even if you blow up the Institute and that switch can't be pulled anymore, it's not like Synths can reproduce. Worst-case scenario, their presence *can* make it difficult to find a real human to reproduce with. Could have long-term effects on the gene pool. Even *if* Maxson himself doesn't *make* any of these arguments.
So if the institute is gone and synths which are basically human in every way are still around and are completely harmless they should still be killed because they are infertile or *may* have an effect on the gene pool? So we should kill people who are infertile or have history of illness correct?
@@Williamwillow_ I'm just gonna leave that real world question alone. Because in the real world there *would* be a valid argument to be made about keeping Synths around, sentience and all that. If that's even what you wanna call it. But that argument can *only* be made rationally in a thriving society where humans exist by the billions and everything is stable and cozy. However, when every day is a fight for survival in a radioactive ruin, AI Rights is the last thing people should be thinking about. In that scenario, we should be thinking about preserving ourselves as a species. And the fact is, machines like that would present a threat to our survival in that scenario. That's my perspective anyway.
Enclave: We'll save the world for ourselves. Brotherhood: We'll save everyone from themselves. They both look out for numero uno but only the Brotherhood pretends at a savior complex.
