Why The Galaxy needed Starfleet to Lose the Dominion War 

The other way to avoid the dystopia is to never sign a contract with Bad Robot.

"All they had to do is submit to quadrant-wide tyranny." "See, now that's going to be a problem."

I think this scenario falls into the "grass is always greener on the other side" issue. We don't know what Dominion conquest would look like because it didn't happen. We don't know how many atrocities the Jem'Hadar or Vorta would have committed in order to secure the conquests of the Alpha Quadrant. The fact is we also know very little about the Dominion member worlds in the Gamma Quadrant, outside the Karemma, Dosi, and the Teplans. "Everything will be fine if everyone just cooperates with me" is the watchword of every tyrant, and most don't honour that standard in the long run.

I recall a conversation that Dukat held with Weyoun. Weyoun wanted to kill everybody on Earth just to set an example for the rest of the Alpha Quadrant. Surprisingly, or maybe not, it was Dukat who was arguing for Earth. The survival of Earth in the hands of Dukat. Amazing, if not disturbing, thought! Also what we witnessed over a 5 year period is that The Dominion itself is not as unified as they would like everybody to believe. The Jem'Hadar proved they could rebel and if they did so on a large scale then all that nice peace and safety is out the window.

"trade was abundant". The Dominion decreed who you sell to, what you sell, and how much. Per the Ferengi negotiations with a client state. The Dominion also decided to genetically alter subject races to enforce loyalty. We know of two examples, but that hardly precludes others.

Dominion victory or no, I think we're missing the real questions. That being: Would the Dominion pay their Comstar service bill?

You realize the Dominion wanted to kill everyone on Earth just to set an example? Even Dukat balked when Weyoun said it with a smile.

I feel like this discounts the Teplan Blight. It's an instance of the Dominion acting against a member state and not for outside influence from an Alpha Quadrant power, and therefore weighs against this whole "capitulation equals peace" notion.

There is one other factor to consider: If the Federation joined the Dominion, a lot of those requests would be "We want your ships to destroy this planet that's not willing to join us." The new Prime Directive would probably be "contact every sentient species in the galaxy and spread the join or die message."

The Dominion has a tendency to modify, harshly or slightly, species under their control. The Gem Hadar were either created or modified to be hopelessly addicted to Ketracel White; the Voltra were modified not only to be servants but humble servants, with their sensory inputs artificially diminished and their only source of pleasure to serve their Lord's. Another species get a tailored disease to keep their life span short. The mere fact that these to heavily modified species exist indicates that life under the Dominion were far from pleasant, and rebellion was common enough to require at least two specialized modified species to keep the people under control, and the risk of punitive genetic modification was present. Yes the Federation was far less utopian that they present themselves, but the Dominion was awful too. The Gem Hadar considered the Klingon strong and aggressive enough to be a problem, How long before the Klingons were forcibly modified to be more docile?, The Human less expansionistic, the Vulcan and the Romulans to serve better the Dominion? More awful, I think so.

If only we had only allied ourselves with Hitter at lot less people would have died. They actually had a tier level for all of us to live under them

The Dominion would just get squashed when the Borg show up anyway. The Dominion are too uniform in their tactics and ideas to defeat a foe that not only controls half a quadrant with ships that take entire fleets to bring down, but also adapts to your attacks.

You forget that Dominion just decided to wipe out all Gardasians. They could genocide anyone under their rule all because a founder is pissed.

Big think here, but if voyager came back to an alpha/ beta quadrant controlled by the Dominion I don't think old Janeway would be able to travel back and save voyager early in Endgame, meaning the Borg would still be a big threat. I know you already have a video pitting the two against each other but it is interesting to think about that being the catalyst for their hypothetical war.

Vorta (speaking for the Founders): "We offered the Galaxy order!!" Borg offscreen voice: "Your order is irrelevant. Resistance is futile."

If Federation just acquiesced to the Dominion, they could have traveled back in time and 'removed' Michael Burnham from the timeline.

You're assuming that "surrender" means "absolute capitulation and allegiance", and there is no way that would happen. Resistance groups would form, especially in the Federation, the Klingons would never surrender, and the Romulans would "surrender", but maintain secret organizations and probably a shadow government to manipulate the whole system to their advantage. Quite frankly, this kind of "logic" is very common in dictatorial governments. "Everything would be better if _I/We_ were in charge." And it never happens. Things are never better when freedom is sacrificed.

Say the Dominion winning would prevent problems such as the ones you mentioned, wouldn't that just replace an existing set of problems with other problems? Unbeknownst, and/or unseen complications under authoritarian rule rarely lead to innovative solutions, or solutions in general.

The thing is that you can just swap the dominion with any other power and you would get similar results, if cardassians, or Klingons or romulans controlled the alpha and Beta quadrants you wouldn't have the burn or the attack on Mars. The point of the video isn't that the federation (or the entire alpha and beta quadrants) should surrender to the dominion, it is that if everyone was unified under the same banner it would be a better galaxy. And if the dominion, or any other power for that matter, had control of this region of space other catastrophes would happen that didn't happen in the original timeline. If for example if the dominion had won, and people theorized if the federation had won, they would have no ideia that the burn or synth attack would have happened. So it's plausible to conclude that there would have been many other catastrophes like massacres, miss management of certain resources, or more racism inside the quadrants, that we didn't have in the original timeline, and put that with the loss of rights and liberties and this future looks bleak. It's like saying that if Nazi Germany controlled the world it would be better, because we wouldn't have 9/11 or Chernobyl, but we would have other events like genocide and the loss of freedoms.

Eh, this argument sounds too much like, "We wouldn't end up risking losing things if we never had them in the first place." The whole *point* of the Dominion is basically to hold down and isolate all the solids species so they won't be a 'threat' to the Founders, so, no, the rosy totalitarianism scenario seems damn unlikely to really result in business as usual, peoples would be fragmented and isolated like before they were with the pre-Federation situation and limited access to space. As for the Burn, that's all down to a series of completely freak accidents, which I think could as easily be avoided by any number of smaller timeline changes. ...basically I'd figure the odds are such that there'd be such an infinitesimally-smaller number of timelines in which it happened than didn't at all, I don't think a big change like the whole war being un-written would significantly change that. ...ie a black swan is pretty much a black swan whatever you do. The whole AI situation actually seems based on something pretty significantly out of character for the Federation in the first place, so it's pretty hard to figure you'd have to have... No mars facilities at all to prevent that? That seems to put us in the intellectual position of 'If only you submitted to dictatorship, it wouldn't be on you to make your own bad choices when someone else can impose theirs on you.' Invoking war casualties of course is comparing that war against the postulation that no one would get pissed off at the DOminion and get their planet glassed by the Jem Hadar in reprisal for disobedience, too. Over time, that seems to happen enough to keep the Gamma Quadrant in low grade terror all the time....

Oh my Lore you give the Dominion way to much credit. You put the Dominion up almost like it iscthe Persian Empire under the rule Cyress the Great when really it is more like one of the many Chinese dynasties. As we see on DS9 the Dominion do try and censor the media and the conditions that the Cardassians are forced to live with are no different than what they were under before joining them. Truth be told the I think we would have a similar effect to what happened in the mirror universe. Regardless of who started this I feel that the oppressive nature of the Dominion would have led to not only a rebellion but one that consisted of both Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers out of who is left. And they like the Mirrior Terrians would throw off their oppressors or at the very least cause them to push the Dominion back through the worm hole abd destroy it ending any chance of the Dominion reclaiming that part ofcthe galaxy. And who would be the architect of this mad strategy of course the modern day Genghis Khan would be Captain Janeway.

Um...maybe a little less sci fi, and a little more real world history. Wars are horrific, so is the result of conquest in almost every case. Will you next offer that the USA would have been better served just sticking with The Empire? That all of Europe and Africa should just have surrendered to the Nazis? Ask the natives of North America how well surrender worked out. At least some earned their place in history dying for every expansion. I'm afraid that humanity is far more Klingon than we like to admit. The Humans, Andorians, Klingons, Romulans, Remans, Naussicans, Gorn, Tholians, and Cardassians, likely the Bajorans. All would be devastated or reduced to fallow servitude for fear of reprisal. Humans can respect a vanquished enemy, they can respect a weaker body that is willing to fight (and even raise them to heroic legend in some cases), but they will rarely respect a coward, and a traitor is universally despised. If Star Fleet and the Federation surrendered, Earth would join the Klingons to die in battle, likely having executed their federation government beforehand. They would not be alone. The founders are cowards that rule through manipulation and threat of extermination. They, too, are far too human for this to be a realistic option. War likely saved more life than was lost. Surrender is only a viable solution if the enemy is honourable and respects you. The Dominion clearly was neither.

Didn't we already answer the question of the appeasement of evil regimes with WWII and Neville Chamberlain's attempts to appease the angry mustache man? As for The Burn, it could have been prevented with better writing...but in all seriousness, they would have just introduced some other disaster if their goal was to write for a show where the Federation is weak or gone, which it seems to have been.

the dominion had at least 2 genetically engineered species, 'fixed' to be absolutely loyal, there's every reason to believe they would do that to humanity

Apparently it's not the only route to non-distopia. In the future we see with Jake Sisko, after his father gets trapped in that subspace pocket, the Federation withdrew from Bajor, the Klingons took over DS9, and the Dominion War *never* *happened.* In fact, it seemed that the Federation-Klingon War didn't happen either. In that future, Jake was a kindly old man, and the writer interviewing him seemed to have that wide-eyed innocence that Federation citizens had before things went full doom and gloom. Aside: I just made this connection. There's an position that Bad Robot ruined Star Trek. In Picard, it's "Synthetics" that destroy Mars, cause the failure of the effort to save the Romulans, and nearly initiate a galactic genocide by other AIs. The Star Trek universe is being devastated by *bad* *robots.*

Perhaps if the Federation didn't just barge into the gamma quadrant and ignore the Dominion's warnings. If they would have asked for a parle and negotiated permission for conduct scientific research while obeying Dominion laws they might have preserved the peace. The one thing I thought was wildly out of place in this show was Sisko role in the war. A captain is suited to command a single ship and has nothing to do with coordinating fleet movements or leading a huge fleet into battle as Sisko was doing. When war was imminent Starfleet would have sent a senior Admiral to take command of DS9, along with a hand full of vice and rear Admirals to command strike groups or tasks forces to lead attack missions. Sisko should have been given a ship and follow orders. Sisko was a newly minted captain who was originally sent there as a commander because it was in the middle of no where. Picard was temporarily given a task force against the Romulans for one mission but that's only because he was a very seasoned senior captain.

The Dominion Motto. "That Cotton is not gonna pick itself."

I'd say that there is an easier way for preventing those events, dystopian future and so on - just sack Mr Kurtzman & his studio, and give the oversight to more competent people - kind of like what was done with giving the oversight over Star Wars to Filoni & Favreau. There, problem solved.

You can bet the first starship really slipping in the wormhole encountered the first ship it found and hailed the "we have been trying to reach you about your starships extended warranty. They were almost certainly Ferengi

If everyone had just surrendered to the Federation then the alpha, beta, AND gamma quadrants would've been better off😄

“I think, the key to holding the Alpha Quadrant, is Earth. If any rebellion occurs, it’s birthplace will be there ... So the first step, must be to eliminate its population. It’s the only way.” - Weyoun (DS9). The notion that the Dominion would have allowed the Federation to exist “unaltered” is not really realistic based on what we see of the Dominion in the series. For starters, just from analyzing this bit of dialogue from Weyoun, we can infer that there are at least some within the Dominion hierarchy that see the elimination of an entire planets population to be an “acceptable” price for peace. This is further proven by the Founders willingness to eradicate the entire Cardassian race at the end of DS9’s seventh season. And even without the events that were clearly brought on due to the War with the Federation, the Dominion still proves physiologically unfit to rule the Federation, based on what we see of them before the war starts. The Founders themselves, the leaders of the Dominion and the key to understanding how they operate, show themselves to be intently xenophobic and distrusting of any “solid” species. The Dominion would never allow the Federation to keep so many Starships, or have contact with any species that they weren’t trading with, simply because any unfiltered and unrecorded interaction between the Federation and another race could be seen as an opportunity to commit actions unsanctioned by the Dominion. Paranoid leaders make bad peacekeepers, and the Founders are paranoid of everyone. In conclusion, while it is true that the Dominion is good at keeping peace, the price that they demand for it will always be too much for a society that values freedom and (more importantly) life. The ends do not always justify the means.

Are you sure Federation citizens would accept that peacefully? I'm not sure how many casualties that would cause. :(

I'm reminded of an exchange from Babylon 5, after the Clark Coup: "On the surface, it's peaceful." "Yeah, the peace of the gun." Also, G'kar's speech on being removed from the council after the fall of Narn: "There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments, and tyrants, and armies cannot stand."

ironically at the start of your video when you describe what the dominon was it almost feels like you descbring the federation but where the dominon uses fear to control its people to get what it wants and also says its for the good of everyone in the dominion. the federation just says do what we say because its for the good of the federation. i think something that is interesting is i think the dominon may not realize it does not need fear to control its people(that being said the federation does have different values then the dominon) the federation does not fear the unknown infact they seem to embrace it where as i get the feeling the founders fear the unknown.

Great channel man. Your videos seem to be a labor of love.

Baneblade is something the dominion could never stand against

Had the federation lost, the dominion would have committed genocide on potential threats, eliminated planets to make examples. Etc. The incurable plague that killed of adults comes to mind.

Another thing to note, once the Founders realized that the "Prophets" were ~real~ (and not just some religious fiction) they would likely have wanted them to be killed off because having other entities (that the Dominion had absolutely no power over), that could completely control the wormhole between the alpha and gamma quadrants would almost certainly be considered unacceptable.

To be fair their victory tasted just as bitter as defeat

What if? What if *the Dominion won in the Mirror Universe?* In such a case the Dominion might even be more _"humane"_ than the Terran Empire (appreciate the irony of that term). In the Mirror Universe the Dominion might peacefully absorb the Terran Empire in a similar manner to how they did Cardassia in the Prime Universe. Or the Terran Empire might even follow the path that the Breen did, and decide to join as a intact power on the grounds that they know that it's better for the Terran Empire to sign onboard and get senior status, than for the Dominion to offer to help rebels and other enemies of the Terran Empire - they see the Dominion as a opportunity to level up. "We already run most of the Alpha Quadrant, we will now run it on your behalf with stability and order". In such a case _look out_ the rest of the Galaxy, the Dominion with the willing addition of Humanity will be a whole new level of threat. The Dominion would fix the biggest flaw of the Terran Empire - the pathological backstabbing … they may make the Terran Empire a nicer place [knowing that a Founder _will always_ be the ultimate authority would stop the scramble for the top job]. And conversely Humanity would bring their innovative nature and curiosity to the Dominion, which is pretty stagnate and far less advanced than a Human (dominated) spacefaring civilization of a similar age. Compare Starfleet after 1000 years to the Dominion after 2,000(?) -10,00 years _[if the Gamma Wormhole had been discovered in the 29th century Prime Universe…]._ A Dominion with Terrans may explore and reach out, being far more expansionist. The Dominion would find Terrans a great addition to their society. … … … … … … … … … Or conversely the Dominion may decide the best option for gaining total control is to come in as the liberators of the Alpha Quadrant from the Terrans, most subject species will jump onboard as soon as they realise the Dominion has the power to back up their offer. And for Humanities slave species it may actually be a good deal, the Dominion will treat them better than the Terrans when the dust settles. Plus they may relish seeing the Dominion devastate the Terrans - destroying Earth and the other major Human Worlds and modifying the survivors into some twisted shadow of their former selves. Not subjugated Humans, but genetically engineered pets. It's really a matter of if the Human Emperor at the time can see the big picture and be realistic about the options versus risk, both for the Empire and for their own position.

There is a reason for the Founders and the Dominion to have genetically and so many Jem'hadar as enforcers and shock troops. If the Dominion was so okay and everyone is okay with the Dominion telling them what to do they wouldn't need all those soldiers, remember they have already explored and conquered their quadrant. From book canon they talked about the Dominion fighting wars with other species inside their "dominion" of the quadrant. And as one person said, we don't know alot about the member states in the Dominion only a few planets and at lest one they used a genetic weapon to kill most of the beings on it because they wouldn't submit. The reason the Jem'hadar was genetically bred for short lifespan and being addicted to the white was that they wanted an obedient force always tied to the founders all the time. This also tells me what a few founders said to odo when they visited him to convince him to come back. They never liked or trusted solids, period. I totally believe that the dominion is always going from brushfire to brushfire in their quadrant to quell dissent and war. I ask this, would we know if the dominion actually lost a conflict at the far end of their domain? We wouldn't and they would never tell anyone about it. Also I say this, the Dominion have made it where their empire will get disabled/destroyed. The same beings they made to fight for them and to administer will be the same ones to take them down. The more power that the Vorta's have it's only a matter of time where a few that have a little more ambition see the simple equation. THEY are who is giving them the white to have the Jem'hadar live, it's THEY who are the voice of the empire and it's they who are the ones most likely to see a founder if they show themselves. The Hardest fight is the one inside your borders. Everyone from solid to liquid shapeshifter wants to have a place to call safe and home. Even the founds let their guards down also and I think they left it down big time in regard to the Vorta.

I doubt the Klingons would have ever joined/surrendered. Hell, they might have even revived an alliance with the Romulans. The enemy of your enemy is your friend. Not to mention how many worlds might have ceded from the Federation to fight the Dominion, to join an Alpha Alliance. Informal or not.

A lot of bloodshed could have been avoided by the Federation humbling itself and saying, "oops! sorry! We didn't mean to encroach on your territory. We're explorers and we'd love to talk to you about an exchange of knowledge..." Instead Starfleet said, "what? We have a RIGHT to explore your territory no matter what you say!" Thus the Dominion War began.

I’m convinced. I serve the Founders in all things.

A culture bred on a dichotomous viewpoint of good vs bad precludes the ability to explore other options of peace.

There is also little evidence that suggests that the Kelpians would not be relegated to being a food source much like they are in the mirror universe. They are viewed as a primitive species which would likely be of limited value. The Ba`ol also serve little purpose, so I can see the dominion viewing traveling to Kaminar as a trip to flavor town.

THIS is why I think Lore Master is changing agent... Dominoin: Yes obey us and we won't Turn a ship into a bomb to make your star go nova Unleash a bio weapon on you Kill civilian men,women, and children in bombing of city's Commit genocide And I'll counter you with the fact post Alpha powers victory Odo returned to the great link to share his experience living with solids likely to lead to a less hostel distrust of others

Three minuets in and Lore is channelling Neville Chamberlain, not the most compelling opening ever... The quality of the advert skits is getting truly impressive, I hope you do some long form videos like that at some point. Disagree about Mars, the Dominion would use it to build Jem'Hadar ships, with human labour. Humans would have terrorist cells and Mars would still burn. Agree no burn happening. Romulus (and Cardassia) are getting glassed in retaliation for the attack on the founders homeworld, there would be no one to evacuate. The Borg tech being in the hands of the Dominion isn't any better, Seven and Icheb just get dissected by Vorta instead. The Temporal cold war is potentially far bigger in scope than the combined Alpha/Beta/Gamma holdings of the Dominion, that's still a relatively small proportion of the galaxy. We wouldn't be living in our current dystopia had we simply surrendered to the Axis powers, the Korea and Vietnam wars wouldn't have happened. WW1&2 wouldn't have happened if Britain and Russia had simply surrendered to Napoleon. The world would be drastically different had Caesar simply surrendered to Pompey, it seems a bit disingenuous to blame him for the Israel/Palestine situation today though.

Seems like you're saying that if Hitler would have won WWII then things would've been better because then the cold war and all the conflicts in the middle east and Asia wouldn't have happened.

For my part I do so as if Discovery Season 3 and the whole Brun things doesnt exists. I just do so as if it would play in a parallel universe

I like these videos except there is one glaring flaw. You've assumed the stability of the planets which are part of the Dominion are as you say. I know for certain the Founders would never allow any race that does not submit. The races in the Federation have been shown to be free spirited and explore the unknown. The Dominion would not allow that as it will allow a member world to gain power to challange the Dominio.

The Dominion to the Federation: "In order to ensure the security and continuing stability, The federation will be re-organized into the Dominion galactic empire. For a safe and secure Empire." The Federation: "So this is how liberty dies. With a thunderous applause!"

Made a lot of good points

“Live free or die. Death is not the greatest of evils.” -General John Stark on July 31, 1809.

Liberty or death tbh.

I wonder if the Dominion (nice guys that you make them out to be) gave the New Bajor colony a chance to join them or did they just kill all of them? Here is another thought, without starfleet being intact and independent, the Jem'Hadar may have succeeded in using the gateway to take over the Dominion.

Interesting question I have is, how would the dominion react to the borg threat and incursions into federation space like in first contact and how would they react to the return of the USS voyager?

In Star Trek Picard Federation doesn't act like Federation, Romulans doesn't act like Romulans so most if not all that has happened in that time period doesn't make any sense and it wouldn't have happened if that show was made by Rick Berman and Brannon Braga. If not for the familiar characters and places it would really be a completely differrent universe and show.

I think sisco was always going to give the dominion the pimp slap, because he's the chad of star fleet that won the war for them.

I think this issue needs some real fleshing out. I am not convinced. I know there isn't a lot to work with, source material wise, but I can't square your argument with the comments made by all weyouns. Weyoun 4 and the traditor both talk about instability in the Dominion. Yes the changeling disease was man made, but how could the genetic geniuses of the founders not be able to cure themselves. They talk about vorta scientist, but it should the founders who deal with genetics. We haven't met another group that had such mastery of genetic manipulation as the founders. Or should I say the founders of old. Potentially the reason the vorta run almost everything is because after the founders finished their master pieces of the vorta and jem'hadar, they grew stagnant. They may have been trying to fix it with the 100 changeling babies sent out, but nonetheless they may have forgotten the techniques that the true founders of the Dominion (the first founders) discovered and mastered. Also a failure of the Dominion during the war that is worrying about peace time operations, is how they didn't iterate on their ships or make new designs. They had an advantage over the federation and stopping improving their designs. It was the breen that brought a new weapon that could have changed the tide of the war, not the Dominion and their vorta scientist. Basically the Dominion isn't as stable as they present themselves and they don't seem to be advancing along, and could potentially be defeated by another power that constantly improves itself. The Dominion should be excited by Borg tech and artificial life, as the jem'hadar had issues. They talk about how the original jem'hadar didn't need to be addicted to the white. A Borg drone doesn't need to be addicted to a drug to control them, they need to just listen to the collective and it's representative. Imagine the jem'hadar, but infused with Borg tech, hearing only commands from the founders themselves. also if you master artificial life to be your servants, you also don't need to addict them or care about potential uprisings if you limit their programing. But I feel the Dominion we see would shun these useful innovations for the tried and true.

I'll stand for a lot of things but I won't stand for a Dominion apologist!

As Worf once said, "a place can be safe and still be a prison." The way I see it, that statement would be very true under Dominion rule. Yeah, you get all of these benefits, but you have to pay for it with your liberty. Either you do what the Dominion wants or you die, even though you're technically not under the direct control of the Dominion. I don't know about you, but I don't call that a fair trade. Even if the alternative to capitulation is a bloody and maybe even futile war. Better to die free than live in bandage. Nevertheless, I still have to say that I enjoyed the video.

an interesting thing.... we see a writer/narrator who prefers slavery over freedom and is mistrustful afraid of (possibly even hates) other sentient life forms... he believes in limiting the power/freedom of everyone around him because he believes that any act of living ultimately leads to evil... (which in the discovery universe may well be).... do not have a doubt, the dominion galaxy would be a dystopia, just a dystopia of a different type.... I believe, in these kinds of restraints, the survivors would de-evolve, losing most of effective sentience, to become farm animals (complex ones, but still that) first science & exploration, than thought itself, would largely become a thing of the past. maybe, if the universe was first controlled by the Borg, it might yet work....but, I do not believe any trouble that happened in the Universe would be worth the dominion life... Plus, "the burn" so what...? it did not really destroy civilization, shift power a bit yes, sort of like the end of Rome, but that's the kind of thing will be restored in a couple of generations, it only effected those in the fleet per-say... many worlds still had there tech remain as somewhat intact. most effected were humans, civilizations such as Klingons or the Vulcans relied on a culture that was not so much off-world.... for them, space was an extra addition...

“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben Franklin

2:12 Name?

The Prophets were in control of the wormhole pretty much the whole time. The same way Q introduced Picard to the Borg early, the Prophets introduced the Emissary to the Dominion early. Why? WTF knows?

I think the main thing that scared the bejeesus out of starfleet is anything having to do with genetic engineering. The dominion is like almost entirely founded on that as a policy and way of life. I mean they wanted their freedom too, maybe a bit prideful. But it was a moral decision, not a logical one, to fight the dominion. Still, Quark was right. They could have hammered out a treaty somehow

The burn, Michael Burn.ham, and all its imaginings, was just a “book 🤣” that Picard was reading at his Chateau during retirement.

Wow, I wasn't expecting a BPL reference when I clicked on this vid.

Remember when Wesley Crusher had a crush on a shapeshifter? Then he got a little freaked out about it? And then he had a crush on her again when he saw her true form was a being that seemed to be made of light even though he knew it was goodbye? I also think it is the episode where Guinan and Riker flirt with each other.

I had to look up what the burn was because I've only seen one season of discovery, and all I can say is... It sounds like a really cool idea (not there detonating baby, that sounds like the convoluted boring crap that turned me off it) and I wish it would have been done by one of the series I have more faith in. Season 1 burnt me out so much that by the time I was done I just don't care to watch anymore discovery. Like Space Trump's whole twist was horrible and nonsensical, and so was evil empress that we are going to team up with even though she was doing the same thing trump was because... She was a woman or the mirror image of the dead captain?... It was horrible and made no sense. Oh, and then reworking the klingons to symbolize trump and Brexit... Like, there were more interesting and other events that year if you wanted to flood the series with current politics in a half-assed way. Discovery feels like they have one Star Trek fan on the writing team, and then they bring several CW writers in to muck it up.

Here is the simple problem that would lead to any attempt by the Federation to surrender to the Dominion...the Federation is a loosely held group of like minded populations...any are free to leave, out join, at any time, so long as they go along to get along. Leaving the Federation does not mean the Federation attacks you, it means you get to go on about your business without their assistance. So long as you do not attack them, their member worlds, or create undue conflict between them and non-member worlds...you can coexist in the same galaxy with little to no ill will. And it does not matter wether you speak for an entire population of one species, or just a subset colony of a larger species, on one planet, you are free to leave. Should the Federation decide to unilaterally join the Dominion...lots of species would decide to separate from the Federation, and even if they could hold onto the larger species governments, there would literally be 10's of thousands of planes/solar systems/outposts or both humans and aliens, that would separate as well. In the space of weeks from the surrender the Federation would not only be halved, but then be tasked with retaking all of that lost ground. You just, at least, doubled the number of deaths from the Federation/Dominion war, and spread that pain from one minor corner of the galaxy, where it was largely volunteers who went to the fight, across all member worlds with brother fighting brother, and destruction of untold worlds. Setting entire populations back to pre-warp capabilities, with burning home worlds for eons to come.

Nice

Those who would sacrifice essential liberty to gain temporary safety deserve NEITHER liberty nor safety.

9:35 That may be true, but that dosn't mean it's for the best. True peace is not merely the absence of war. ... War may be Hell, but so is living under Tyranny.

I think conflict at the interstellar level would have been pushed downward or upward in the hierarchy, given a Dominion victory. So maybe a rash of civil wars on the planetary level, or maybe the dominated powers inciting intergalactic wars as they started looking further afield. Perhaps even the colonization of the past via time travel.

You should do a video about non Delthium using space faring people how they would rise to power xus of there ftl Capabilities Such as the Romlians with there singularly drives and other ftl.tec

I agree that had the Federation submitted to become subordinate, the dominion would be pretty chill. Heck they can even claim credit for Odo growing up mostly well-adjusted despite his mistreatment when he was young. For obeying member states the Dominion seems a bit like the Roman Empire, don't cause uproar, pay your taxes (someone paid for those Legions, and I assume someone pays for those dominion ships) and everything is fine. We do see three darks dies of the Dominion before the war starts. First, someone fled from Dominion controlled territory and he doesn't know why the police wanted him and he only speculated that he talked too much. This indicates that while private dissent is tolerated, public dissent is not. Now in the age of the internet, you can argue free speech is overrated and caused more trouble than it's worth for an untaxed right (I take this point of view), but few of Star Trek's audience would take this view, especially when the show was aired. I personally think we confuse public and private dissent since few societies allow one and not the other and therefore in real life, places without free speech also have government spies invading privacy, but this doesn't have to be the case. The next time we see them not so nice is when they tell the Federation to not use the wormhole. this seems reasonable since they are only asking for maintaining their territorial integrity, any sovereign state should be allowed to expel unwanted guests right? Well the Federation was in the middle of dealing with a crisis that involved one side not upholding their end of a treaty and now the Dominion are offering peace in return for a treaty. Wait, it's not even a _treaty,_ just a soldier shaking his fist with a threat. In hindsight the Dominion was not even acting in good faith here since they had been operating under the assumption the Federation would refuse. The third time we see a bit of the dark side is when they revealed their existence just because they didn't want to imprison Odo. Before the Founders were a bit of a myth, people knew they existed but only a selected few contacted them directly and most only got their orders from immediate superiors. After Odo was released, everyone knew the Founders were changelings. Millennia of Dominion security were comprised to save one of their species whose allegiance wasn't even with the Dominion at that time. This third point is that if a changeling is in danger, anything can be scarified to save one. Despite the fact that these aren't great, I think if the Federations submitted, things would be quite OK. I mean, who needs free speech if you can still keep your privacy and prosperity? The Federation can still explore new worlds and make discoveries. But the Federation losing the war? They planned to exterminate everyone on Earth and depopulate Vulcan (I assume by extermination, but maybe deportation). Now compared to the actions of the Zhat Vash , the depopulation of Mars, and all the shitstorm that happened (since Star Trek Discovery likes the Happy Ending Override trope) you could still make an argument the average citizen of the Federation would be better off if the Dominion won (not if you live on Earth, but hey we're trying to balance some people dying in one case, and even more people dying and being oppressed in another, so you average it out). but this is hindsight. It's like if after a nuclear war happened some time traveler went from 5000 to 1930 to make sure the Holocaust happened just to kill the ancestor of the guy who caused nuclear war "improving" his timeline.

I feel like it's pretty likely that the Dominion would have gotten sick of Klingon belligerence and jumped straight to genocide against them.

Let's just consider something if The Dominion wins the war: Weyoun has already stated that they have to destroy Earth because many of the rebellions would start there, after that, the augmented humans when they were in DS9 stated that if the Federation surrenders, a new rebellion will be born in a few decades on Earth and that the rebellion will take over of The Dominion, leading to the formation of a new and stronger Federation.

I think you're already insane my friend but I love your work LOL...

Considering how long the Dominion were a large Empire, its surprising that their technology had not progressed more. They should have easily out classed Starfleet had their tech developed at the same pace of Federation and Starfleet tech. That suggests that the Dominion had become stagnant and was not really developing that much at all.

The Federation quickly surrendering or joining the Dominion might've turned out like Denmark in WWII. They surrendered within 2 hours and ended up basically much keeping all their govermental systems. They were formally occupied, but the Reich didn't do much directly, keeping Denmark pretty much self andministered. Only about 3000 soldiers died in the invasion and Denmark saved about 92.5% of their jewish population after being told to "solve the situation" by simply evacuating them to Sweden. So by not forcing resistance the Federation might be able to pretty much keep their day-to-day operations going the same way.

What would the Dominion do to the Borg. I suppose with the Vorta and other alpha quadrant could collectively bring down the Borg. What we learned on episode’s of Voyager, former drones were able to restore their individuality. Could the Dominion consider to take such a great undertaking? I believe the drones deserve to be saved too. What do you think? I welcome any opinion. I won’t get offended.

“the only time the Dominion would commit atrocities is when,” Wow, really?

Counterarguments: The Quickening and the Cardassian Genocide. Some portions of a population rebel and the Dominion doles out collective punishment at a monstrous scale against the entire population. Not cool. Not the type of people you want to have in charge. Depending on what you believe about the day-to-day workings of the Klingon and Romulan empires, the Dominion *might* be preferable to them, but not to the Federation. But I also have to agree that the Dominion isn't too horrible, as long as everybody does what they say. That's also why I personally believe that the Occupation of Betazed during the Dominion War likely wasn't bloody or destructive, just a whole lot of psychological terror.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

The point is that life is not more valuable than freedom. We humans in general agree upon to rather die fighting than living on our knees. (everything Discovery and Kelvin-Verse should not be considered canon and wouldn´t have happened in that universe anyways)

Don't mess with Tex. Welcome to Van Zandt.

Ehh, consider what was established early on in the series. The founders made the Dominion, as a way to control solids, because they always found solids as a threat to shapeshifters. Even if the federation would have surrendered peacefully, the founders would still have seen them as solids, and the enemy that needed to be controlled, if for no other reason than the safety of the changelings.

Alright the VPN Segway was fucken funny 🤣😂 for a second I thought you were doing a startrek fallout crossover 😂🤣

A great way to avoid a Dystopia is to not put a Michael Bay Transformers writer in charge of the Franchise.

Those who would sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither and will lose both.

1:24 in and the Dominion sounds like Persia.

"Better to die on your feet, than live on your knees", circa 1936, France.

Nice starcraft notification lol.

So there's a few positive and negative points because this whole thing needs serious consideration. 1) Did or did not the war happen, because knowing the Dominion they might just Genocide earth in retaliation for a militantspanish Conquistador species just starting a war off their own ego. 2) The Temporal Cold War...a Dominion Victory thus threatens the existence of all sides, thus like several other odd moments of history serving as a moment where either one side lets the other handle it with some wishy washy "protest" and silent support, or both go all in on stopping it. 3) depending on the timeline and im never clear with Voyager, wouldn't one necessarily leave genocide Janeway stuck in the middle of the Detla Quadrant and with her full ego unchecked? 4) It was never actually all that clear what type of control the Dominion wanted over the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Did they want puppet states, protectorates, direct control, or something like a Axis set up (and I'm referring to the actual Axis political structure not the Nazis and Italians who made it infamous and make studying that international political structure a nightmare as everything wants to delve into how WW2 was fought between the Evil Nazis and everyone else) 5) What was the actual scope of what the Dominion wished to lay claim to after the war? Because many channels have different takes. I think the type of control plays a huge part since the actual map of Nazi control vs their puppets and Allies looked very different from the in era propaganda maps most of us are used to seeing from Disney pre-movie cartoons and the grade school history books. But what did the Dominion actually want to take as their own going into the war?

5:56 this is how the Romulus chief engineer of umbra station should have met the unmentionable borg. lol

Are you assuming every power in the alpha and beta quadrants (no matter who they may have been at odds with) would surrender along with the Federation?

This is a great theory. My comment is towards the new shows, we’ve NOT seen one iota of Dominion War aftermath. It’s annoying.