Considering that the Galactic Republic hasn’t fought a massive war for the past thousand years, it is not difficult to see some captains or admirals using these ships as battleships instead of carriers as they were design as. Though as the Clone Wars progressed many surviving captains and admirals learned from their mistakes and used these ships to effectively defeat any opponents that stand in their way.
You mean jedi, as the admirals were treated like sh*t and ignored whenever they suggested tactics that were far better than jedi. Like usual the jedi hot headed ego thinking they are gods gift and invincible against everything to the point they use these to take the fight to the clankers. Which is why all the admirals defected with barely any issues. Granted the republic never really had their own Navy. So it's no surprise they did this, their ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand most of the time. Anakin being the worse, but even the humble Obi-Wan is guilty of it. Battle of Sarrish which broke commander codi is proof of this flaw they jedi had.
@@ryanfreebody6881 They admirals usually proposed tactics that were more effective, but I think the division was more than just because of tactical effectiveness. We have to remember a lot of these admirals went on to become Imperials. At least half of them easily switched to the Empire, maybe 90% at most. They weren't all as horrific as Tarkin, but it seems common for them to not care about collateral damage and civilian losses. Of course the Jedi's efforts to minimize civilian casualties usually meant battles lasted longer and led to further Republic losses, but in all honesty without the Jedi the Republic military likely would have fought just as ugly as the Separatists. To be fair, at least these officers have experience in fighting pirates and criminals while most Jedi mostly acted as diplomats with events like the Invasion of Naboo being exceptions. It's a pretty complex situation. Overall if the officers had full control of the GAR and Republic Navy, they would have pushed their clone troopers to be more brutal and vicious, but they at least would have won the war far sooner than Palpatine hoped for. The Jedi meanwhile made sure to respect their allies, neutral worlds, and even their enemies at times and encouraged their clone troopers to be more like people. However their efforts usually lead to key Separatists making their escape and thus keeping the war going for longer. Hence why the Jedi became unpopular the closer you were to the capital of the Republic and more popular the further out you went. Citizens on worlds engulfed in the war of course hate the fact that their is a war destroying their home, as many planets basically died in the war. However the Jedi at least tried to preserve lives as seen on Ryloth, winning the respect of not just their troops, but people on the frontlines. But deep in Republic territory as the quality of life went down as more resources were devoted to the war effort, people began to hate how the Jedi couldn't just end the war. It likely didn't help with the fact that Dooku was formerly a Jedi. They didn't understand the horror of war like the people in the Outer Rim and other regions between the there and the Core Rim. However over time in the war everything was changing for the combatants of the Clone Wars. While the clone troopers began to grow more independent and individualistic thanks to the influence of the Jedi, the war made the Jedi grow more bitter and darker. Give it a few more years and the Jedi and Clones may have partially switched places personality-wise. All in all, it kind of shows how despite unprepared the Republic really was. The Jedi were reluctant to become generals and fight a war, the officers had little compassion and little patience. And in the middle were the clone troopers torn between both of these leaders. Of course things probably weren't so smooth in the CIS military. Sure, Dooku chose a good chunk of the officers and all an officer would have to worry about was if their droids malfunctioned as they would follow any order given to them. But the idealists and corporate officers along with a number of mercenaries also hired likely argued over how to fight as well. The corporate's and mercenaries at least had Dooku who always granted them authority over the idealists, while Palpatine had to play a balancing act to pretend to be a Jedi ally while also finding officers who would suit his purposes in the Empire.
@@ryanfreebody6881 there's very little evidence that non-Jedi commanders were, as a whole, any better than the Jedi, quite the opposite actually, when these non-Jedi commanders took over after the establishment of the Empire, Imperial military efficiency generally got *worse*. Tarkin is the best example of this, the Tarkin Doctrine was a massive failure and a major part of why the Empire fell as it was inflexible and couldn't react to Rebel tactics. There are of course exceptions, most notably Thrawn who thought Tarkin was a bit of a moron, but there were good Jedi generals too. The Jedi also had more of an excuse too since the Clone Wars kind of snuck up on them while Imperial commanders were experienced but still incompetent.
look no further than John Beatty in the battle of Jutland, who took his fleet of cruiser killer scout ships and used them as front line ships against German capital ships, mostly because he wanted the glory of sinking German ships. As such, he lost like 1/2 his ships, and sank 0 german ships.
If the GAR was unnerfed, the simple solution would have been to make a variant that replaced the hangars with magazines for torpedoes and lots of extra launchers, and removed the doors instead just having reinforced armour. It could have obliterated enemy capital ships with massive salvos in one barrage, while tanking the return fire. And it wouldn't need a whole new production line and development cycle. If the GAR was also playing smart, they would have kept it's external appearance identical with fake doors and so on. Who am I kidding, the GAR would have painted it in different colours.
@@doughboidays3039 Take this idea to its logical conclusion: mount another weapon system, camouflaged, in the secondary bridge. Another SPHA-T would work if you're not feeling very creative.
To be fair to the Venator, it had 16 Heavy Turbolasers which actually outranged those on CIS warships so it could snipe enemy ships while it's fighters fought up close with the support of lighter capital ships.
@@antonisauren8998 Nope, if you check their weapons the Munificents carried two heavy turbos while Recuscants had a couple more heavy turbos but nothing heavier that the VSD's heavy dual turbolasers. This is the quote the info about range comes from: Republic-allied engineers ensure Star Destroyers can be operated by a relatively small crew, and weapons designers have created more powerful turbolaser cannons with increased range and accuracy, giving the Republic Navy a strong advantage against Separatist warships. This comes from Star Wars Complete Vehicles New Edition, it's canon.
The Venators - symbol of the Grand Army of the Republic before they were replaced by Star Destroyers when Palpatine reorganized the Republic into the Empire.
The Republic had good carriers, they just needed bigger battleships during the Clone War. Ironically this would lead to the Empire under emphasizing the use of carriers during the Galactic Civil War, which would be one of their biggest weaknesses. Reminds me of the quote people always plan to fight the last war, not the next one.
The Empire actually had ships that compensated for the ISDs weak spots, but Lucasfilm just hates watching the Empire not being crushed in space battles.
Battleships are dumb, that's why we quit using them. Jets do most of the work now, so the starfighter would do that here. And the rest is handled by small boys like frigates, destroyers, and cruisers. If you take out a small boy you hurt the battle group. But if you take out a battleship you kill the fleet, like taking out a super carrier would today. Expect unlike a carrier a battleship doesn't have dozens of fighters protecting it, attacking you, and running interference along with the ones that are actually going on the hunt.
@@richardhicks5031 The Principles remain the same. A fighter is just a small, fast moving, hard to hit powerful gun/missile/bomb. Having hundreds of those vs 60 turbo laser is no contest. Why waste time and energy on cannons when fighters are your cannons? Also if you destroy the cannon, you damage the ship. If you destroy the fighter the ship is still fine. Instead we have space battle in sci-fi that mimic 1800s naval war. How is that better or make more sense?
Given how long it'd been since the last time the Galactic Republic had been in a war, I wonder if it had affected their ability for strategy when using their Ships.
Certainly. A thousand years of no war and not having a functional standing military would lead to incredible institutional decay on any states ability to wage a war. A state wouldn't have anyone whom would have the slightest clue how to organize and lead such a large military. As bad as it was to put the Jedi in charge of the GAR, given how long it had been since the last war, regular military admirals and generals would not have done any better.
@@ryuukeisscifiproductions1818 That would also explain that one time where clones ran at savage, most of them not even getting a shot off before they died.
They also had 4000 years of detailed and recorded naval battles and warfare to look to. It’s not the same as actual experience but it’s still something. Enough to know how to build fleets and basics of naval engagement
@@Daedalus33 so did the jedi enclave, but just because there are the basics available for people, it doesn't mean people will properly study them much less bother to. There is also the issue of practical experience, it's easy to tell people how to fight, a lot harder to implement it especialy when having to do it in the middle of a battlefield. Certainly, officers who studied suh battle tactics and space warfare, might be able to do well, but that is if you know the enemies battle style and tactics. There is also the issue that some of the enemy commanders have more experience than the admirals of the republic, several cis members had already honed their tactics, when the republic had only just started in the war. only a few admirals had the actual experience against pirates, but the cis commanders fought in actual wars before becoming apart of the cis.
The Venator was more of an assault carrier, The problem is that it was used with wrong tactics in mind. The GAR had no true battleships but there were better ships that could run as frontline offense or defense for the Venator while the Venator provided support and staging for assault if necessary. That’s the odd thing about Star Wars, The original trilogy was based on WW2 ships and tactics while the prequels had ships & tactics closer to modern times. This kind of makes the Empire seem incompetent since something like an updated Venator design paired with some scale down ISDs with better point defense systems serving as destroyers and cruisers would have a been set up that allow the empire to patrol and secure their territory with fewer ships and better power projection post clone wars.
It's more a giant assault carrier meant to shrad the enemy with it's star fighters and escorts then if they are still alive pound them with their guns then make a space head on a planet... Or stay beyond range of the mainly battleship enemy and play star fighter games with them till hopefully they win.
In Jedi’s defense, they had extremely limited tools with how barren the Republic Navy was to begin the war. Venators were the best option for most of the war. If anyone is to blame, it’s Rendili for taking so long to finish the Victory and get it into service, by the time it was ready, the Republic already had formed most of its tactics. Even that’s unfair though, nobody was expecting the war to escalate this quickly.
@@Quecojo tbf the Jedi was put in such position as the plan of palpatine, it wasn't their request and they definitely not a war organization, the same way you wouldn't let Christian priests be war officers
At 2:06, I like the 'Rebellion' Venator. But, I would have had smaller hangers, replace the former hollowed areas with extra power, shielding, crew quarters so the personnel could be closer to their quarters, kept the central strip for small corvettes meant for anti-fighter and patrol duties, the smaller hangers would be fitted with specialized ARC-170's that were modular, added extra turbo lasers and other weaponry that was both defensive and offensive, and to keep this short, as I have a whole 'essay' of what I would want my Venator to be, a third higher tower, in-between the other two and above.
I think just placing the turrets in less restricted areas would make a big difference. Also placing some flaks on the underside, and hooking up the side hangars with the main one, and getting rid of the door would help
@@johnnowak4620 I would perma delete the ventral (except on dedicated assault/carrier variants) hanger and put a big f**k off gun (or two/four if feasible, a pair or two of SPHATs should be enough to give anyone/thing second thoughts about diving under to escape the mainguns/torpedo batteries) there, additional shielding units, and more power generation (if needed, the Venator's reactor was very powerful for it's time). It's not like it was used very often or would significantly impact the number of embarkable strike craft.
Don't diss my baby,she is beautiful.She is great as a carrier and worked well with acclammator,arquintens and victories.I do think they could have used another front liner to take the damage, while the venator acted the backup
while I love the venator, it would be a terrible space ship for combat. In space, when every ton counts, multiroles arent great. a dedicated carrier can carry more space planes and a dedicated anti ship platform can have tons upon tons of more guns. Say you have 50k tons to work with, 20k tons of that is going to be engines (40% is pretty typical for both sea faring vessels and in most scifi space vessels) so you really got 30k tons left. I dont know how hyperspace works in starwars so im going to just assume that you need a dedicated hyperspace engine as obiwan had that ring that he attached to his ship to go into hyperspace. so thats another 5 to 10 tons. Now youre only down to 25k tons, another 5-10k on armor so now youre at 20k and you havent even added any weapons or sensor systems. Now youre at an impasse, you could only give it the bare minimum of sensors for maybe 2-5k tons and then the ship can at least see whats in range, or you could make it a "multirole" and give it kickass sensors to see the entire system its in, but then thats going to be 10k tons more. And at that, your 50k ton super battleship is only 10k tons of guns
@@agentbarron3945 the hyperdrive would be build inside the main engines, notice how the X-wing used its engines to travel normally and in hyperspace. I think the republic needed to multirole because of the suddenness of the conflict. The Venator worked well enough within its assigned roles, it was when overzealous leaders drove them into enemy fire that it couldn't survive by itself.
Seriously, the Venators would have made great fleet mates of Imperial-class. You could even cut most of the Imperial's hanger/troop space and make it smaller. Or give it more guns, your choice. You could also remove a few turrets from the Venator to free up space and maybe even connect up the hangers. As the Venator could do any carrier/transport role far better, and still possess enough firepower to handle almost any Rebel battlegroup if the Imp goes down (provided any Mon Cala cruisers present where destroyed/fled). Through in a couple of Victory 1's, (The 2's lost most of the missiles/torpedoes and where basically mini imps, and one Imp (especially if it's a 2 or Tector) is enough to handle most Rebel battlegroups, and I'd prefer to rely on additional AA guns and the Venator's strikecraft to protect the Imps against hostile strikecraft) For long range missile support and a close escort for the Venator, and suddenly the Rebellion (or anyone else for that matter) are going to have a much harder go of things.
It was an excellent fleet carrier, it'd even be a great fleet carrier post galactic civil war given a modernization overhaul. What it needed was a battleship variant with most of the hanger facilties stripped out, and more heavy turbolaser turrets added.
@@mapleflag6518 That's the plan with such refit. While the Side and Bottom hangars and the Bridges would be remaining, the redesign for a Battleship Venator would use that space to either add new Turbolaser/Ion Cannon Batteries (and/or even rearrange the Heavy Turbolasers the Venators have already so they cover more of the Ship) as well as Reinforced Hulls and Stronger Shields
Why not build a whole new class better optimized for frontline role? That new variant would require so many alterations that it would be cheaper to start a whole new class. When you need to replace critical components like reactor ( Venator's reactor output was just enough to operate all it systems) then it is not worth it.
All being well put..... one has to remember, that structure and disposition of Republic Forces were NO ACCIDENT. They were DESIGNED like this ON PURPOSE to make war drag on. Also, remember that in SW Universe Venators could have been probably built 'on the cheap' more easily than heavily armed and armoured ships of the line.
The Venator Class ship was meant as a counter for the Trade Federation droid controlled ships. The number of droid fighters they could launch was daunting. The Republic neede a ship that could ferry a sizable of small attack craft & ground support vehicles for clone battalions.
In the battle of midway, the japanese carriers got blown up and lit on fire, with like 2 bombs each because they had lots of munitions lying around which ignited and caused their downfall, so now imagine having many times more munitions and a open hangar door, and not much protection on those areas, you can imagine the explosion
The Venator as a Command Ship and a dedicated Carrier works wonders. But as a Battleship, well... not so much. The Victory as a Light Missile Cruisers is a temporary fix but, usage of more dedicated, Ship-to-Ship combat vessels is what the Republic needed. Perhaps the mid-war refit of the Clone Armor and some new ships, like the Victory, could've been given more attention at places like Kuat Drive Yards
The GAR needed the Victory II and the Imperator (aka, the Imperial). But the Victory II was a post war design and Palpatine deliberately hid and slowed the design and fielding of the Imperator.
Please cover how the ARC-170 was misused by the Republic and how it could have been better optimized. I personally would mount a Gatling gun on it so that it would be more like an A-10 Warthog
@@michaelandreipalon359 Technically you can say Newtonian physics says they could just lob hyperaccelerated projectiles at a target. You just have to hope they actually hit, or you have live ammo floating through space until it DOES hit something.
I think this is probably one of my favorite videos of yours. I love the Venator class and it's use in the cartoons, and limited use in Ep. III. It's weaknesses are that of most carriers in the flight deck area - I thing the Battle of Midway proved that factor. Thanks for that.
I've always loved the Venator since I first saw it on Episode III. Such a beautiful ship. I know a lot of people like to designate it as a Carrier but it is so much more.
Disney should use the Errant Venture story from star wars legends and reimage it as a civilian-use Venator captained by Hondo Onaka. The ship would basically be a mobile trade port that travels to different systems and many adventures ensue.
I think a better option would be to have one ship assigned for carrier roles and another ship assigned as an actual battleship. Having them split into multiroles would have negated their effectiveness in the fields.
You are correct, and the Empire would eventually adopt this general strategy of using Imperial-Class Star Destroyers as their primary front line battleship, with dedicated carriers behind them like the Quasar-Fire and Ton Folk (as well as other specialized ships like Lancer Frigates that filled roles the Imperial-Class wasn't optimized for), but this was only over 23 years of experience and development, the Republic didn't have that kind of time, it had to come up with a fleet capable of at least competing with the Separatists (who Geetsly's have explained had an amazing fleet design in other videos) in as short of a time period as possible. Best way to do that was to make a few simple designs that filled multiple roles, and the Venator did that exceptionally well. Geetsly's is correct it had its flaws, hence why it was phased out later when better designs could be made, but it did its job and Legends and Canon both take inspiration from it for the future.
I still reeeeeeally wish GL had used the victory star destroyer that was already in book canon. It feels like a more primitive star destroyer and was still heavily armed. 12 quad turbos, 40 dual turbos, 80 concussion missile tubes, and a hanger for (later) 2 squadrons of TIEs. It could also fly in atmosphere.
Ya it's not the best battleship but it's lethality as a carrier makes it far more superior than one. There's a reason why aircraft carriers replaced battleships in our world. If I could choose to command or pilot any ship in Star Wars I'd still pick the Venator without a second thought they're beautifully designed and the carrier capacity makes it better than most other ships including the Imperial Star Destoryers if handled properly.
Space is much different from our oceans, logically battleships seem they would be more popular in star wars given the infinite line of sight space provides
@@joshuahadley776 yes but with a carrier you can deliver attacks from multiple directions and overwhelm their defenses. You also have superior reconnaissance capabilities with smaller ships like the ARC 170 and not have to risk your entire carrier scouting out locations.
@@rc59191 I mean why even have carriers with hyperspace capable fighters, if you need recon just send fighters, the occasional utility of fighters doesn’t erase the power of big gun
The reason battleships are no longer used is because they could no longer fill their roles. Their whole job was to be a wall of guns and prevent the enemy from advancing to the softer targets. We now have missiles carried by destroyers that could take one out in two or three hits from beyond their range. The destroyers are cheaper faster and carries more than enough of a payload to wipe out a few battleships. Carriers are used now because they can deliver these explosive payloads at much further range than even the destroyers, along with support craft and troops. Star wars still has a need for battleships because most fleet battles follow the same rules as ww2 just on a three dementional field instead of two. I'm not trying to be mean or anything just thought you should know.
How would the weapons of the GOAT Tri Droid fair against the underside of the Venator? If they were really that strong (as I hope they do, I love em), could they damage it?
A tri droid couldn't bring its guns to bear on a venator, the venator would, have to be in atmosphere, and then the tri droid would have to be on a cliff under it, however a hundred of them couldn't get through a single venators shields, but if it was unshielded eventually they'd be able to get through, but that can be said for any weapon, even a blaster pistol
the venator wasn't a battleship, but a multi role battl carrier, the last image isn't of the vicotry, but the onager, an empire project, based on the same technology of the death star main gun
The Venator is a perfect relief ship. Being used to transport supplies after a disaster, or retrofitted to be a massive hospital either in orbit or on ground. After retirement it could even be used as mobile black market trade hubs. With the massive hangar space it's easy to make a market place for any illegal goods. You have a full workshop for any kind of off the books ship modifications. Full mess hall (or possible cantina), along with sleeping quarters(or suites). Not to mention the class 1 hyperdrive and armament can get you and all your clientele out of any unwanted interuptions.
Anyone else notice the Venator class also looks oddly like a giant Jarjar Binks head stalking through space? "Anny Anny! Meesa head is ah beeg bad starship! BOOMA WOOSHA!"
it is still super beautiful as a ship class! the red line adds so much to it rather than dull grey. as others have said making a variant that was less carrier and more boom boom is doable, but then how can you manipulate a war if one side would easily win.
A true battleship refit for a Venator would look to me as follows: -The secondary flight command bridge would be stripped, and the main one lowered and centered into the bridge "neck". -The dorsal hangar bay's door-opening mechanism would be removed, keeping the extra armor the doors provide. -The entire dorsal hangar bay is removed (and filled up with solid armor and decentralized extra reactors). -On the main hull, along the sides of the former doors, smaller flak turrets are added. -On the hangar bay door, a line of 4 more, super-firing _main guns_ would be added. -The whole broadside "sandwich" area in between the upper side and the lower side is up-armed with dozens of anti-capital ship broadside mass drivers. -The broadside hangar bays would be kept, but armed with extra flak guns to either side. -The ventral hangar bay is removed and replaced by a rectangular protrusion, equipped with extra shield generators and even a standardly equipped SPHA-T turret. -Another SPHA-T is placed dorsally at the point where bridge neck and hull meet (roughly exactly where the other one is below). -The entire front bow section in the former hangar bay is filled to the brim with torpedo and missile tubes. An expensive refit for sure, but one that certainly is better suited in all ways than the Venator-class carrier for front-line heavy duty brawling. A different variant, one less bent on pure destruction, would feature heavy Ion turrets instead of the 12 _main guns_ and the 2 SPHA-T turrets.
If the GAR used the venator such as we did in the pacific theater it’d through off the sep strategy all together. We know they probably had stolen or pirated venators so they knows the weak spots
Venators were excellent star fighter carriers, and were designed as such. It was the GAR/Jedi who insisted on using it for jobs that it was not built for.
Venator1 & venator2 are Carriers for landing assault task forces . However SPHA main weapon got them inaf firepower to be equal with Federation Galaxy - class Enterprise, and if Enterprise can launched many different types of warheads, Venator overwhelming Enterprises with mass of starfighters
See the thing is that the turbo lasers were great for ship-to-ship combat. From a long, LONG range. It definitely needed support to protect and draw fire while fighters did most of the damage
The logical idea would have been the construction of a variant that did away with the main hangar, and used it for extra armor, power supply, shield generators, and turbolasers running down the length of the bow where the doors used to be. It can still retain the side and ventral hangars for storage of defensive star fights and still allows for the standard Venator to stay in service as a dedicated carrier and lighter warship.
Ironically the Venator would be a really good ship for the empire since it could serve as a Long-range-starfighter platform perfect for peacekeeping and patroling and the unconventional war the rebel alliance was fighting.The ISD however was really well suited for the very traditional war the Cis fighted.
Whenever I play a naval warfare game on roblox I have this issue with my teammates. They always take carriers (without escorts) into head to head fights with battleships and end up wondering why they lost.
Yes. Also, the Republic suffered from a chronic lack of manpower, particularly fighter pilots. This made a carrier-focused main battle ship even less suitable for them. The ship's biggest strength, its enormous fighter-capacity, seems more like a cumbersome obstacle than a strength for the GAR. How often do you think they could even field as many fighters per Venator as it was supposed to carry?
One weakness of the Venator was the use of slow to produce and highly expensive clone pilots in cost-ineffective fighters that were easily beaten for cost by CIS Droid fighters. Swapping out the clone pilots with drafted pilots from the republic would have shifted the power of the Venators immensely as they could rely on having full wings of fighters operating all throughout the war. Of course by the time the Empire moved away from clones, they had be soured by carriers enough that they did not make them a priority for their new fleet.
No wonder why Lucasfilm still used the Imperial Class Star Destroyer in Promotional Material, Here I am asking why didn't they use Clone Wars Stuff in Secondary Material and why Clones weren't the Iconic Troopers in photos
While the points you make about the wrong use the Venator had and the flaws it had by default are logical and true, we must not forget than, despite of all the flaws, multiple times we have seen the Venator beat down Munificent class and Recusant class warships in the series, movies and other media, using both its weapons and fighter complement. The ship wasn´t as awful as one might think in a capital ship engagement, in fact it could defeat many of the Confederacy ships in a fight even without fighters; however, many upgrades could be made to make it more appropiate for, either it´s intended role of a battle carrier, which would mean relocating it´s point-defense weapons throught the most imprtant and vulnerable areas, or to make it able to fulfill both roles more properly by reducing certain hangar areas in favor of better armament (more turbolasers, along with some ion cannons and/or mac guns), along with better weapon distribution, and reinforced armor plating to make it sturdier and eliminating important weakspots. On the other hand, while the Munificent and the Recusant were deadly ships in their own right, I do not consider them as ships the Venator struggled greatly in base of what we were shown, that title would go to the Providence carrier/destroyer (also the Luckrehuk but that would be unfair), which is basically what I believe the Venator could have been and can be modified into, since the Providence had a great carrying capacity while also having a very powerful and better distributed arsenal, all of that while being even shorter than the Venator in lenght.
Its like how the Essex class retained their 8 inch guns despite being completely unsuited for any sort of battery duel. People like Tarkin probably just saw a big ship and decided to use it like a sledge hammer because its big n scary or something.
Umm, which Essex are you talking about? The only WW2 era Essex I can think of never had 8 inch guns. The older Lexington class did have 8 inch guns, but they were removed in 1938 (or was it 39?). They had originally been designed and laid down as battlecruisers with 16 inch guns before being converted to carriers (some of the U.S's first) as part of the Washington Naval Treaty. There was also the IJN Kaga (originallya battleship hull), but it too lost it's 6 inch in the late 30's. The only aircraft carrier I can think of that retained a "big" gun armament throughout it's life was the Graf Zeppelin and it's 6 inch guns. Which was never completed or commissioned. And it only had them because the Germans were 20 years behind in all naval architecture but submarines.
The Venator was a wonderful multipurpose ship Although it’s more suited as a carrier than a battleship for capital ship combat, something it’s successor the Imperial made up for The Venator does have good firepower and powerful shields, making it capable to defend itself against capital ships if it had to But the fact it had a giant front section, made for launching fighters and transports is a design flaw in itself Even with the dorsal doors closed, the ship’s interior sacrifices space to make room for fighter and transport compliment Whatever armor it has on its front side, is exposed within It’s most defended part would be its underside which was used sometimes The Imperial Star Destroyer made up for it, as it’s armor and interior compliment, made it durable Excusing it’s weak spots, the Imperial can endure damage when shields are exposed, combining with its feared firepower, makes it a more suited battleship, at cost of the effiency as a fighter carrier the Venator had The Rebels knew it as they avoid Capitol ship combat, using snub fighter attack to surgically attack the Imperial’s weak spots to bring them down As a battleship, the Imperial is feared and rightly so A wasted opportunity was for Imperial Fleets to combine Venators and Imperials Use Imperials at the front to deal with capital ships while Venators support from the rear, unleashing huge amounts of fighter compliments to support the fleet
I agree with the notion that the Venator-class Star Destroyer was a pretty lackluster ship in Star Wars and that it was heavily misused by the Republic during the Clone Wars. Given the Republic's reputation and image alongside the Jedi Order, it's no surprise that the Venator was going to be one of the Republic's greatest weaknesses in terms of its fleet during the war. With a lot of exposed areas and so many flaws galore, it's no wonder why the Empire eventually replaced them with their newly-constructed Imperial Star Destroyers, including the Victory-class destroyer, even though it was supposed to be another ship for the Republic to combat the CIS. This is also why I personally think the Empire had much better ships than the Republic did, and why the Empire had a more concentrated grasp on the use of capital ships in the fleet, especially with the intended design and task for certain Star Destroyers.
One of the primary weaknesses of most Republic and Empire warships, especially the larger is the design, which basically would be OK in a wet navy, operating on the surface of an ocean and fighting similar warships. Space warfare is three dimensional and threats can approach from any direction. A better designed warship would be capable of directing convergent point defense fire from more than one longitudinal axis. Similarly, the elevated bridges on towers are bone headed designs and should at least be replicated one the "lower" aspect of the vessel. In fact command staff shouldn't even be in such exposed positions which targeted could completely disable the ship if there is no redundancy.
I think of the venator as a Aircraft carrier, it shouldn't ever been in the frontlines, it should be rear guard covering the acclamators pushing foward
The Victory Class was better at going toe to toe with capital ships, but the Venator was still an amazing ship at it's designed purpose, which was to be an assault carrier. Being able to launch hundreds of starfighters at a time does make a huge difference in a space battle when kept out of range of a capital ship's guns. Conversely, I think the Venator would have been a better ship to fight the rebellion, which relied on hit and run starfighter tactics mainly, than the ISD was. The ISD being a big, clunky battleship designed to fight other capital ships at cost of being innefective against starfighters and too slow to run down smaller ships.
Great new video Geetsly's! Just a quick question for you, do you think your next video essay style vid will be coming out anytime soon? While I do enjoy your bite sized content like this very much, I thought your in-depth video essay on Anakin was extremely informative in a very complex character! With some topics a 10 minute-ish length vid just won't do it justice like with Anakin! I understand these videos won't coming out very often since they obviously take much longer to create due to the much longer video length, it would still be very cool to see your long video essay's every now and then, it would be a good way to build hype for new channel vids while building a catalogue of long videos with great re-watch value!
The venator was never classified as a battleship but a capital ship of the time the victory was more a battle ship but the venator has lots of options in a fight than later capital ship the venator yes is more of a assault carrier but at the time it size was capital ship size for the time the classification sizes change all the time considering how well the venator performed i doubt your claim that it was built badly it was built for the job It needed to fill considering that in the future the imperial significant lack of fighters and lack of anti fighter guns ended up causing lots of problems for the empire
The hangar is a weakness in our eyes…….but in a galaxy far away, if the shields go down and the enemy can fire directly on the hangar, the ship is dead anyway.
I think the Republic just wanted a reasonably powerful multipurpose warship that was ideal for mass production, it probably made the most financial sense at the time when they just needed to get materiel and firepower to the front. TLDR; spam venators until the problem gets solved
Another problem is that the GAR didn't really have a proper brawler. Sure, the video says the Victory existed, but how often was it seen on screen? But they had Venators everywhere. The Venator ended up being a battleship because there wasn't any other ship to fill the role.
35 years since it's invention and we never got it in movie or animation. :< Dreadnoughts and Carracs still waits too. Only Z-95 got lucky treatment. Lucas wouldn't care and wanted to design new things, but it's strange, that we got three ships for CIS and only one for Republic in RotS.
He is also wrong about the Victory I, it wasn't a mean't (or very good at being) a frontline brawler, even if it was a much better one than the Venator. It was a long range missile/torpedo cruiser, and it was (like the Venator, but it used fighters instead) intended to remain at range with the carriers (helping to protect them from enemy fighters/missiles. And any pesky corvettes/frigates that managed to get too close, although the Venator could handle those itself) and pound the enemy from a "safe" distance before closing in to finish off any remaining damaged and crippled opponents. The Victory II was a frontline brawler, losing all of the missiles and most of it's torpedoes/strikecraft in the process, basically becoming a miniature Imperial 1. But they were only built after the war.
Watch the episode "Cargo of Doom" and say that again lol. Resolute had the power of an ISD in that episode... Just casually took on 8 Munificents and dominated.
Okay. Venator was not a horrible battleship as it was designed to be a carrier. Never mistake plot armor for real armor when having these types of conversations.
@@socipathicgaming5914 It wasn't plot armor though. Anakin and the rest were completely unconcerned about the battle above Devaron and had to take measures NOT to destroy Bane's Munificent Frigate when they easily could have.
@@richardched6085 - Right. Hero plot armor. Can't show Anakin's ship being all low energy and simpy. And he did mention in the video that the Jedi was very bad at using the Venator incorrectly. If we were to re do that battle with the actual stats of the ship and Anakin's battle tactics the battle would have gone differently.
@@socipathicgaming5914 what stats? Anakin's ship the Resolute was only OP in the episode I mentioned. In every other appearance just 2 or 3 Munificent Frigates were shown to be legitimate threats. I acknowledge Legends and all of it's glorious statistics. But what we see on screen's gotta count for something. Chalking it up to plot armor is insufficient for Starship combat. The Venator was undergunned by the standards of later designs but was a technological marvel when it was introduced. In the ICS it said that 4 to 6 Recusant Destroyers were needed to take on a Venator. Since the Munificent is less powerful than the Recusant.... 8 seems like a fair amount to combat directly. The Venator Attack Cruiser Gualara successfully defeated Grievous's Providence Dreadnought the Invisible Hand in Revenge of the Sith. It was definitely no slouch...
Maybe the republic should've released both versions of star destroyers during the clone wars that said Venator star destroyer always looked cooler to me personally because it looked cooler and had color to it and didn't just look like a mono colored giant triangle in space(though I know the empire did that deliberately make everything simple and uniformed etc)
The only explanation that doesn't involve stupidity that I can think of is that Palpatine did it intentionally in some way, to increase the casualties of the war or something. It's either that or Tarkin was involved, no wait, I said no stupidity involved of course...🤔
Carriers? Battleships? Venators are for Ground Based Artillery Fire Missions. "Redoubtable, heavy ordinance required at sector 14. Fire for effect. Danger close. If we don't make it, tell the Chancellor we held to the last clone!
the main problem was the venator for most of the war was the only capital ship the republic has so the republic really had no choise but to use to as a jack of all trades ship. this was due to the kaminoians not knowing how to really build a military and instead just commissions the acclemator and venaotr and no other type of ships as capital ship 2 ships they could have used was the legacy and republic battleship made by fans one from the empire at wars clone wars mod and the battlefront commanders mod as both where more suited for frontline combat. personally syfo dias should have both had a clone genetic donor and someone who could design and build a military or at least know what a military needs so basicly a general and an admiral to help pick and commission the ships and vehicles.
Honestly, you could probably say just about everything wrong with the tactics of the clone wars was a direct result of the Jedi being too headstrong and too used to fighting up close vs from a distance.
It wouldn't be a stretch to theorize that Palpatine influenced the design of starships in the Clone Wars as well. The ISD makes up for most of the flaws the Venators have, so it's possible Palps was gearing up for the introduction of his grand design even while the Republic Navy was being formed. Considering how he was fond of ancient Sith warships like the Harrower, it would make sense to lay the foundation of his new Imperial fleet and experiment with new designs where he could. A lot of the decisions with both Separatist and Republic navies could have been influenced by Palpatine from behind the scenes, possibly explaining a lot of the designs we see.
I never understood the Republic military. The Acclamator which is a glorified cargo ship that can deploy its own complement of fighters and the venator that's a aircraft carrier. With the occasional frigate and light cruiser thrown in. Not a single one meant for capital ship combat compared to the much more diverse CIS navy.
Personally still think Kuat should have kept development and production of the Imperator I class Star destoryers. Even if the GAR preferred the republic.
I think it would be better to switch out the core of the GARs navy with the victory class with each fleet having three to four venators for fighter support. combing these two would be insanely over powered.
The Venator was not meant to be a battle ship. It was supposed to be a carrier type ship that relied on its starfighters for combat, not its weapons. This is why the Venator really sucked in ship to ship combat but really rocked when it came to mobile base defense and deployment.
Answer is simple, because unfortunately for the republic, Venator was better off a carrier, victory as a missile boat/capital ship and didn't get a purpose class built battleship until production of the imperator later imperial class
Why don’t the Ships just Float Themselves “Nose-Down” during Combat so They can Concentrate ALL Fire; from All Areas of the Ship? Can the Artificial-Gravity; not, be Altered?
By doing so you're basically turning your own ship into a massive target. Yes, most of the guns can shoot, but now the enemy virtually cannot miss your ship's hugh city-size silhouette, you'll be taking way more damage than you can ever do to them. And consider that the separatist army is mostly disposable droids, even the high rank ones, they would absolutely not mind charging a whole ship straight towards you, even sacrifice that ship if needed. You'll always be losing more than they ever will.
Of course they did! They had no other choice! They had well, almost no capital ships at the start of the war, they had Acclamators...nice, but frankly not a true capital ship, not really, it's an assault transport for planetary invasions! They had some Mandators, but they were not under Republic direct control and they had no hyperdrives at first (Ruusan Reformation, no more dreadnoughts allowed unless they had no hyperdrives or very very very slow ones!), so yeah the Venator came along at it was used and abused and used the wrong way etc...but the gun you have is the gun you use, even if it is not working well...if you have to fight of a bear and only have .22 pistol? You will use it if you can't escape! Even if hunting bears with a .22 is downright stupid!
The biggest problem of the Republic Navy is that it was cobbled together, much like the Army, by people who had no idea how a navy needed to be organized.
On the Classes: Venator was designed poorly and pressed into service as a front line target because it was built as a back line mobile hangar. Victory was better designed while also still lacking anything that could seriously threaten enemies who got behind it. Not that the Venator is exempt here either! Imperator / Imperial was, to an extent, maybe a balanced approach for an idea, however, the total lack of point defense guns and swarm fighters might have worked, if the logistics to support these vessels were kept in place. ... No, the real ironic tragedy herein is that, without a clear design mission per ship class, which is then successfully conveyed, with context, to the Republic Navy,...? There's no stopping a repeat of an equivalent event. While the modern Super Carrier in the fleet is a similar replacement for the older Battleship,... In Star Wars... That's not quite the same. Even a Nebula, if I recall correctly, did not have any, or if so, many, point defense options, let alone fighter space. Star Wars seems to favor a mostly all-round rank and file line capital ship. Basically: - Resurgent Class size. - Venator hangar bay. Goes below, and better designed, with internal armor, as if additional outside areas, especially when the area can at least either open up or be seen outside. - At least Imperial Class firepower. - Nebula Class firepower, baseline, if able.. - If Nebula grade turbolaser arrays prevents point defense, go with at least Imperial. - Point defense. At least enough to counter known line equivalent fighter swarms. ... Well, an "enemy" Venator based swarm would be ideal, ... while maybe needing to be less. - 5+ years of long term stores. And at least 10-12.5+ years, max, in total. Not that this thing would be easy to design, however, a one ship fleet, unlike the Imperial and even Resurgent Classes, MUST be designed to be as the original form of the "Jack of All Trades" quote goes. "It is better to be a Jack of All Trades and a master of none, while also, maybe, a master of one." A one-ship fleet would, at least most likely, qualify as a master of one trade. War.
I mean look, a Hyena bomb along the protected landing strip armour would cripple the Venator, so obviously it is a bad ship. If the weak spot of the Venator is literally it's hangars and it is supposed to be a carrier and it's weapons can't protect it from ships crashing into said hangars then it is awful
Sacrifice some fighter capacity to make a string of those big ass turbolasers along either side of the hangar door and have the door be several small doors that open outward (with explosive releases in case of damage or malfunction or other emergency). Replace the turbolasers’ former location with missile cells. And the big ass cargo area(s) those huge docking doors connect to should solve the supply problem quite nearly. You could also store more supplies bellow the missile cells as those don’t take up a lot of vertical space, unlike a turret. Remove the anti-air weapons from the edge, double their number, and put them on the top and bottom of the edge of the ship. Put more turbolasers, ion cannons, tractor beams, and/or missile cells in the edge.
![Why the Venator Actually SUCKED as a Battleship [Shouldn't Have Been the GAR's Most Popular Ship]](/img/logo.svg){kind=logo}
