Why the "virgin" trope is the worst trope in Romance books 

One of the things I loved best about Cruel Prince was that Jude's virginity was a complete non-issue. She wasn't infantilized for it or seen as a prize for it and certainly not sainted for it! She just simply had not had the time or inclination to sleep with anyone before Cardan, and the fact that's it's like literally the one thing he knows more about than she does is not exactly a point in his favour in the book! 😆

I would even go a bit further. It's not just fetishizing female inexperience and naiveté, it also fetishizes male dominance and men in positions of power/authority over women. Of course, there are different ways to portray the male counterpart, but even if he is some sort of gentle teacher, it's kind of gross that it takes a man for a woman to actually know her own body. I mean she went through puberty and probably had some urges even before she met Mr. "Right".

I think I like the virgin trope in one context, where both parties are virgins the first time they have sex together, particularly if it's awkward in some way. I find that those are often the least creepy and remind me of the sweet, awkward experiences I had as a young adult.

What I’ve found is that in the religious community it isn’t the man’s job to tell a girl she is in some way “inappropriate” unless it’s seen as a “last resort”. It is specifically meant to be enforced by the women. Men do speak up about it, but specifically to women in the community who will enforce the standards or are in a place of power over the girl. So men are a part of it, but more removed, because as a man you can’t be seen talking to a girl who’s behaving “inappropriately” because then she’s a “temptation”. Both the men and women who perpetuate these behaviors do a huge harm and disservice to all genders of society.

As an actual religious girl who is waiting for marriage, this trope is repulsive. Using virginity to shame others is simply riddiculous, and the worst part is, that it only applies to women. Not only I feel nasty about the victims guilt (because they literally are victims) but also, why is it only women the "poor week unexperienced manipulable" ones??? It is just soooo weird and sexist... And no, I don't think a Virgin person is better than anyone. Bein a virgin doesn't mean you are perfect or flawless, so just shaming others is nasty. I do take waiting for marriage as a personal choice, and I think it's beautiful in the context of fidelity and commitment, but as a weapon, its just gross

Very well said! My personal peeve is that both historically and in literature, a woman and 'honour' and 'integrity' only appeared together in terms of her 'virtue' ie virginity 🤦🏻‍♀️ My Honour has NOTHING to do with sex, and whether or not I've had it; my Honour is my Honesty, Loyalty, Integrity, Fidelity ... my character. NOT the state of my hymen 🙄

I've been watching like all your videos lately. First I got caught by the "Romance Genre" skits, then saw a couple recent longer videos and really appreciated the kind, nuanced, and thoughtfully constructive opinions expressed, and now here I am finding the old ones like this! (Which I also appreciate, btw)

I'm a 32 year old woman. I grew up in a fairly conservative Christian home. Purity culture was strong as soon as I turned 13. My youth group and various events that I went to were so aggressive about the purity of women. To my memory, there was little to no teaching the boys how to respect and rebuke lusting after the girls. I did know that it was wrong to condemn other girls and women for not being "pure" for whatever reason. I was taught that God forgives and forgets, and I believed that held strongest with anyone who felt like they'd made mistakes in their lives (all kinds, not just sexual). But it wasn't until a few years ago that I learned the word "virgin" originally meant an "unmarried woman". It had nothing to do with her sexual activities or not. Queen Elizabeth I was referred to as the "Virgin Queen", but that was because she was unmarried. Definitely not because she wasn't letting men into her bed. It's truly disgusting how the church and purity culture have twisted "virginity" and how "Christians" who are supposed to be about love and forgiveness are so quick to shame and hate those who do not adhere to their views on "purity".

It's sad because I actually like the 'hey I haven't done this before and I don't know what I'm doing??' plotline. Because you know, same. I am an asexual idiot and love stories about more asexual idiots. But a sense of humour about it, treating it as normal, and having it gender flipped a lot is kind of important? Not having it be seen as desirable, just focusing on how an adult who hasn't had an interest or opportunity before learns to navigate this new space. But I am _also_ a sucker for healing from trauma through connection. And that can include bad sexual experiences in the past. They kind of go together? It's okay to feel weird about sex, it's okay to want things, it's okay to stumble around and not get things perfect as long as you're communicating. I love characters learning about each other and building each other up.

As someone from a mellower background with the same basic values, I always thought one’s virginity was to be saved for one’s spouse REGARDLESS of gender.

I have a romance WIP in which the (significantly older) male lead is a virgin. ^ ^

I wrote my character as a virgin because the guy she wanted to be with was killed and she just never wanted to really focus on guys after he died. For her it was just not finding the person she even had the hots for, especially when she mostly lives around her family in a small town.

I remember walking past a redlight area with relatively innocent classmate and she said "disgusting whores". I was so taken aback that she'd say something like that...

Yup, any trope that promotes the idea of sexual purity is creepy and gross. I liked how in the Wonder Woman movie she was a virgin only because she grew up without any peers (all the Amazons were basically her aunts), but she knew about sex and wasn't shy about it , and it was never an issue in her relationship

Dear Elizabeth, I come from the same background as you, it seems. I have been all of the things you allude to: the virgin who felt above others, the non-virgin who felt that my value had significantly decreased (in fact, for the first few months, maybe years, I wanted to die, and no, I wasn't assaulted - this was the reaction I was always going to have to sex, as it was in-bred in me). If I wrote a book about it, I would try to uncover the cruel system behind this "education" of girls (let my hate flow), and show a path to healing. This is still a trauma in my life, threatening to pull me down now and again. I still am forced to live a single live of abstinence for fear of what my mind did to me the last time I let a man into my life (flaying me, pushing me to kill myself). But I am feeling happier in myself now (trying to do the best I can with what I am given), and I am learning to love people more uncondinionally whom I used to have prejudices against. I am trying to heal, overcome this toxic mindset. It is a long way, which will last all of my life and will probably still not be finished, but maybe I can somehow find peace. Thank you for your words about the virgin trope. I was never aware of it, but I was actively reading things with the virgin trope, because I was always asking: "How do they deal with this trauma?". However, the virgins in the books weren't really traumatised, and so I felt again that I must have done something wrong if I felt traumatised. Now that I am aware of this reading habit of mine thanks to your words, maybe I can stop this stupid self-re-traumatising. Thank you!

Personally, I don't enjoy the virginity trope when it creates or contributes to a power imbalance in the relationship in the man's favor, allowing him to use her sexual inexperience against her in order to manipulate, coerce, infantilize and/or objectify her. (I actually love Bridgerton but I did not enjoy it when this happened after the marriage in the first season.) I do enjoy the virginity trope when it is used to support the female lead's growing into her confidence and power as a woman and the male lead supporting and enjoying her journey while also discovering and appreciating the joys and advantages of committed sex over casual sex. Unfortunately, the former dominates the romance genre. Which always confuses me because, as you said, romance is overwhelmingly woman writing for woman. What is so appealing about that abdication of sexual autonomy or responsibility to so many woman? I understand it in a teen as sex is all uncharted water and frankly scary on so many levels, so the concept of your partner holding the reins takes all the pressure off. But in grown, sexually active woman... I haven't been able to come up with a logical explanation.

Authentic Observer talked about this recently in her "a secret desire to be dominated and degraded?" 3 hour video. Where in romance books, the romantic protagonist pushes a sexual relationship with the heroine and they won't go with him despite being experienced or wanting a more in-depth relationship like that. But the heroine will refuse such happy endings until the male character admits to their own fault and/or apologizes. I couldn't help but relate that to Christian chasity and virginity and it just made so much sense to me.

I hate, hate HATE this trope. i hate it so much that one of my characters kind of laugh at the people that asked her if she was a virgin, because she is highly s@xulised by many.but she was also known to refuse to sleep with people, so she was asking the other character "why you all people are so obsessed with what happened in my crutch?" making everyone feel really awkward for a few chapters , no she never answers it. because it's non of their business.she haven't even answered it to her so called lover (more of a toy but that a different issue) because it's non. of their. business.

I'm a firm believer that both people in a couple should be virgins before marriage (unless they have been married before) As in Bridgerton's case that's not really a trope but more an accurate portrayal of the times. Things were much more conservative back then, at least on the surface.

Such a trope devalues the real world virgins who choose that life style. Justvsaying.

I agree with everything here. Purity culture is incredibly harmful and misogynistic. That said, in my fiction choices, where things tend to play out very different from what I want my life, or anyone's life, to be like, I do like "first time" stories. I could get all defensive about how the stuff I like differs from stories that make that a major plot point or that fetishize it, but that's kind of beside the point. It could be that in a better world, my brain wiring would not be this way, but it is, and I figure that if I have to live in a society that hates me, I am not going to beat myself up about my reading choices or any other woman. I love it that a lot of published and amateur writing has moved way beyond the old tropes so that *everyone* can have stuff that is what they want to read/create. This video doesn't do that, but I often find people, almost always women, who say that it's possible to have a fantasy life or make personal entertainment choices that makes you a bad woman(!) or a bad feminist. Feminism is wanting women to have all the choices, not in telling other women what they can and can't do, or making rules about what is "appropriate" and "correct" for women to do with their personal choices and private lives. I have seen smart, well-meaning women writing sex scenes that are writing specifically as a rebuttal, as a so-called replacement for all the "bad" "wrong" writing, as "proof" that you can write a hot sex scene that is chock full of wonderful things like consent and affirmation. Of course you can!!! But insisting that everyone only read or write this sort of story is like trying to convince afficianados of BDSM that they will enjoy themselves so much more out of those restraints. I appreciate that is not what is happening here in this video. Transgressive tropes and story lines are exciting for those who are excited by them precisely because they are Wrong. I never want women to be shamed for their sexual choices, the choices that were taken from them, or for their reading/writing choices. Thank you for discussing this.

let me preface this with i had a very problematic relationship with my mother. let's just say she had a sort of Historically Accurate Spartan view of motherhood. having said that, one of the Few things she did right was she was of the belief that virginity was overvalued. she often told me that a really Good sexual relationship had both parties having at least Some experience coming together. like she made an almost power point presentation of all the things that were Better about sex between people who Weren't virgins. her thing was that if you Were going to be out there doing everything that walked, good for you so long as you all enjoyed it And made sure you weren't "bare backin'" it.

I wrote fanfic relating to a canceled TV series that I belatedly realized was romance fiction, since I wanted to reunite two young protagonists who had fallen in love just before the male hero was abducted by a presumed villain, but due to circumstances was presumed to be dead, and she (a former villain herself) pledges herself to go on fighting with the group they belonged to, as her way of keeping him alive. It was clear in the context of the show she had quite a bit of sexual experience, but never anything like a romance. It didn't seem to me he had any experience at all. So the way I wrote it was, before he came back, she learns from his best platonic girlfriend, who wants to make friends with her now, realizing how much she meant to her presumed dead friend, that she was quite sure he'd never had sex, because he couldn't with anyone he didn't trust, he only trusted her, and she (unbeknownst to him) was gay. It took this other girl's forward irreverent nature to break through his reserve, and once they came together, he'd never want anyone else. The former villainess is utterly flabbergasted by this revelation, since he was a very good lover, after a brief learning period. She's pleased (and yet still miserable, since she still thinks he's dead), but she did not set out to take his virginity, she just wanted to form a connection, since her earlier relationships were purely physical in nature, not intimate at all. His virginity was not the point of anything. But she does like to say she 'deflowered' him. Anyway, he comes back later that evening, when all the others are gone, trying to find proof he's really dead. Boy are they surprised when they come back the next morning. Anyway. Google "Not Offended, Duela" Hey, I can promote my stuff too. Since it's fanfic, I can't charge for it. I'm reading Daindreth's Assasin now. I paid for it. So far, so good. ;)

I have always suspected the whole 'virgin trope' is making sure a woman has no one to compare a man to! Not exactly inspiring.

As someone who despite loving your humor and writing style based off of your video scripts, and thinks dandreths assassin sounds really awesome and interesting, and will not read that series because of the open bedroom scenes, I just want to say I completely agree.

Introducing someone to something enjoyable can be fun, in the sense of getting to witness their early novel reactions can be special, but then there's also the duty angle that you need to make dang sure you're doing a good job with the introduction if you don't want to utterly spoil it and possibly turn them off forever. Note this applies equally to anything from sex to an anime to a video game.

It’s a tough one for me. It’s between this one and the “not like other girls” trope. That’s because the virginity trope can fit inside the “not like other girls” trope, regardless of whether or not it is said, because it’s usage is to make a trait or traits about a female character special because they distinguish her in some way. Outside of the context of the story, it is meaningless, because you don’t know what perspective the author is taking on women. Regardless of whether a woman is a prostitute or a “perfect, Christian virgin”, all women are judged to make this character special. And as I said, it can include virginity. Women are judged and shamed for everything. For just existing. So yeah, I guess I just talked myself into hating “not like other girls” the most, because it demonstrates that there is no standard in which women are accepted.

Virginity as the only reason the female character has value ... well, unless we're talking opening portals to other dimensions via feeding them to the monster, or the kraken, or the dragon or whatever because someone has a really misguided sense of reality ... (I love Once Bitten ... ) ... really annoys me. Not so much when I was younger because ... convention? ... but these days finding a balance between that trope and the way too spicy with no actual plot ... probably explains why I don't write romance and stopped reading them. Love your thoughts on things.

The "benefits" of virginity (such as they are) apply to both men and women: You're less set in your ways before you've matured, so growing with your partner means that you can adjust yourself easier. Anyone who NEEDS TO KNOW about your sex life, who is not involved in your sex life is weird. People who are close to you might toe that line somewhat; but it should never be in an "I must know!" kind of way. Anyone who feels like they're damaged goods because of their experiences should not be made to feel that way.

hate this trope and recently ive read synopsis with 30 yr old Human nature same all over the world

The liberalization of our sexual attitudes has left many people broken with trust issues and commitment issues.