Why These Are The Best Numbers | FOLLOW UP 

OMG, YES! Someone thinking about the often forgotten 20% of the population...I want to see what you come up with

that sounds really cool.

as a person with dsycalulia i found the KI numerals much easier as it simplifies what is required to remember. basically now i only really have to think 0-5 the rest is just about knowing your multiplications for 2,'s and 5s

I don't have dyslexia, I just fucking suck at reading.

But the similarities are the key

Is it easier because it is more angular?

@@holdthatlforluigi it's easier because has a lot of straight strokes, that's simplify engraving on hard materials

thats how our numbers looked at the start bruh we just changed since writinh on paper and stuff became accesible

As someone who has done engraving and dabbled in runes, and is a massive Dwarf nerd, a system like this or the 13th century Cisterian monk system would be amazing for it.

You could also count using nothing but matchsticks (or any sticks for that matter), no writing or engraving required at all and no mechanisms like an abacus.

ohw cool that's pretty close to what i had in mind

Eyyy good job making it in!

The way you wrote eight seems to indicate that numbers are read in the opposite direction to our usual way. You seem to have put the 1s place on the left, with the 8s place on the right, and I find that very interesting and cool. Also, all your digits have 2 axes of symmetry, so extra cool.

Inigo Diaz yes, thank you. i wanted it to be a right to left number system because my friend is a lefty and used to write backwards, as for the symmetry, it was purely coincidental at the beginning of making it but i decided to keep it that way.

post more of your conlang :)

Mathematics itself is mostly (if not entirely) pattern recognition.

@@danielsteel5251 But not all pattern recognition is mathematics. If I recognize that evey time a stoplight turns red, cars stop, and every time it turns green, cars go, I've recognized a pattern but have done no math.

@Yevhenii Diomidov What? Lol

​@@danielsteel5251 I'm pretty sure that's not the case, but maybe I'm wrong.

Tautological. Because pretty much all learning is pattern recognition.

It’s fallow up

Alex Milonopoulos r/woooosh

FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU-

@@alexilonopoulos3165 *follow :)

It's a Follow-Up. :-)

ohw cool that's pretty close to what i had in mind

Fuseteam about the abugidas? Because yeah they look really cool and work really interesting with the rotation thing

@@Alice-gr1kb oops i replied to the wrong comment..... how did that happen o.O but yeah the KI numerals are awesome! it inspired me to make a featural number system myself

Fuseteam oh lol that's ok. I'm thinking about doing a featural system or maybe making a system like in Greek where letters were numbers

@@Alice-gr1kb yeah i'm thinking of a featural system myself with just 5 numerals for finger binary xD

We do indeed have a sound for sarcasm. Unfortunately I chose the absolute worst type of humor, an obscure joke from a flash game.

It would have to be base 6 with a sub-base of 3, unless you want to add more strokes to the top and bottom. I think more than 4 strokes on the bottom, and more than 3 on top, would quickly become illegible. Base 36 with a sub-base of 6 would require 4 top strokes and 5 bottom strokes, which would crowd things pretty quickly.

Haha funny haha.

it's useful for basic arithmetic

OH YEAH I FORGOT YOU I CAN WRITE MY BASE 4 ONE WITH ASCII 1 is /, 2 is - and 3 is | and every other number is a combination of those added together. So after 3 it becomes however you want to write it. / - | , = + || И Н ||| ++ +/+ (or -И-) |||| |И| ИИ +++ (or |||||) HH H/H |||||| # ... For note И is |/| and H is |-|

@@water594 So 4 could be = or |/ or -// or ////? Interesting, that means |-/ is 6 and ||-// is 11. So if there's no base, is there a standard order to the placement? Does the bigger number go first, like |-/or the smaller number first, like /-|? Or is it free moving, like /-/ or -|-? And what are the rules on stacking in the same cell? Does = equal 4 or does it have to be --? Could I write 5 like + or T or * (okay, that asterisk should look like >|

Commenting to see the replies because this is interesting

@@josephschubert6561 These are all problems I origionally encounteted when making it and to be fair I made it when I was sixteen and haven't worked on it for like two years. My biggest problem I never adressed was "crossing rules". Why are | and - allowed to be crosssed to make +? It adds another layer of complication. Perhaps I should ban crossing and five should be |- or T. Although it wouldn't be * or >|< because there is no backslash \ number. I guess you could add one and ir would increase the number of possible combinations and thats a valid choice. You interpreted completely correctly for everything else though. I agree larger numbers become unweildy but stacking rules are quite simple, you just put it together however fits best. I never made a culture to go with this but I imagined it would be almost like an artform. A mathematician would have the task of representing a number in the most elegant way possible. So instead of 20 being ///////////////////// which is unelegant TTTT is way more elegant and understandable and if I wasn't constrained to this format I might stack the Ts in ways that make more sense. Maybe extra rules you could add would be face rules meaing a /-| can only contact a fact of another one once so =| is kinda an illegal number. That'd be another choice.

@@josephschubert6561 Also feel free to steal this and call it the Water Scale if you like it enough :), not sure if I'm ever gonna use it

Generally the more factors a base has, the better it is. Of course, bases shouldn't be too large either. Which is why Base 12 should've been adopted by humankind centuries ago, but we missed that part of the Science tech tree by now I'm afraid lol

@@Reydriel Why base 12 and not base 6?

@@TaiFerret Base 6 does not divide evenly by 4

@@Reydriel we all know base 6 is the superior base, we've all seen the conlang critic video

I don't think it'd look nice or be intuitive, but typically base systems in large primes aren't used because they're prime (they have no terminating fractional numbers).

Own methods? How do you perform borrowing? I want to see if it's what I came up with

Digi that does masked sense. Still, they could’ve chAnged the two. But anyways thanks for your reply :)

You still can recognize them from each other and also 1 = ---- 2 = | 3 = (--|--) = 1 + 2 4 = (=|=) = 1 + 1 + 2 5 = (-|-|-) = 1 + 2 + 2 Ect it's just repeating after If you change 2 to || then their system wouldn't make that much sense

well, it's more about the spatial reasoning, but you are correct that it is definitely not geometry

I would argue that based on this, trigonometry isn't geometry. All the same arguments apply. Reductio ad absurdum.

@@joalampela8612 False. Trigonometry measures sizes and angles of triangles, contradicting my argument "We're not measuring the sizes, angles or anything really".

@@yuirick But this number system is all about the relationships of shapes. The angles and sizes of triangles are the same thing.

@@joalampela8612 Possibly, yeah.

I think anything from the denominator being 5 to 10 would be pretty easy.

Divisibilty Rules. Traditional results of number theory. A counterintuitive surprise is that they actually depend on the numeral system used. Some numbers are easier to divide by others depending on which base (base-10/base-2, etc) and symbols to express them you use. For example, 1/3=0.33333... af infinitum only because 10/3 is not an integer. 10000/100=100 is easy because you only had to coun the zeroes, there are other symbolic tricks you can use depending on the rules you use to represent the quantities

But those aren't visual tricks of the digits themselves, which is the thing in question here.

Digit Shift Left and Digit Shift Right, as a programmer used to doing the same thing but in binary might say

Over an infinite amount of examples, the amount of examples of the form 10^n tends towards zero

You can. Maths basically does not care about the way numbers are displayed, althought they may make arithmatics easier, especially in everyday live. At the and of the day, calculation are done in the Natural Numbers (most likely by your intuitive interpretation of the Peano-Axioms) and they don't care how one writes them down.

Remember, multiplication is just the opposite of division

not sure you wanna count on 99.9% chance of not recognizing as numbers... They are *incredibly* regular and with enough examples of use can eventually be recognized as numbers, then easily cracked. If not done by cryptographers, by linguists.

Firebrain Yes, if they were looking for numbers to crack. What I meant was if I had the combination to my safe written on paper, and someone burgled my home, I’m sure they would be linguists or hackers to recognise what’s going on and would easily overlook. No doubt if I had £1Trillion that safe, those interested in getting at it would crack it. But I’m talking about the 99% of mankind.

@@muaawiyahtucker ah, in that case it makes sense (although in the current case you might wanna consider a secret sharing method)

You also have to get comfortable in base 20, which is way harder than just doing regular math in base 10.

@@Otome_chan311 Not necessarily, he could just adapt the numerals to base 10 as Artifexian described.

@@Otome_chan311 1. It's not necessarily harder, your just used to base 10. 2. See 1:25. It translates perfectly fine to base 10 as it has a sub-base of five. IMO, it looks better in base 10 as you will only ever have one line on top.

@@wesleykronmiller390 except the "rotate it and look for how many times it appears" shit doesn't actually work at that point.

He needs to explain the borrowing system stat. The curious question that got me to realize it is "what does five vertical lines mean?" Then I spent entirely too long writing stuff out with pen and paper. Use a pencil if you can, erasing marks makes for quicker error correction

W.,h,.W

Which would also make it a very bad system for security purposes

It should'nt be to bad, if you are used to it. Most peolpe can "see" amounts up to four, so once the brain automatically divides the number to the subbase and 0ne-digit the numerals, those can instinctively be read.

The guy never explained how borrowing works, but once you know how to borrow you can indeed find patterns just like the examples he provided. I've done a few explanations of how borrowing works and we'll go over 35/7 really quick so you can see. 35 looks like 1 vertical mark followed by 3 horizontal marks and 0 vertical marks, and we're dividing that by a number that looks like 1 horizontal mark and 2 vertical marks. At first I thought I could just rotate the number and everything works out, but the patterns don't quite match out. Instead, I needed to borrow 4 horizonal lines from the left most vertical line, giving me a number with 7 horizontal lines. Then I needed to borrow two of those horizonal lines to make 10 vertical lines for a final number that looks like 5 horizontal lines and 10 vertical lines. THAT matches up 5 times, for our final answer 1 horizontal line. But dang that looks messy when I write it out on paper.

DoomRater in fairness the only way to do 35/7 with the Roman system is to memorize the result or that 5*7 is 35. There is no aspect of our number system that could make solving that problem any easier.

@@ItsAllEnzynes Think of it this way. Base 10 doesn't handle divisions by 7 with terminating fractionals. The smallest base that can is Base 7 (next is 14). This is an interesting phenomenon that I believe cryptographic systems actually rely on to stay secure, though I don't understand the mathematics behind to fully grasp.

​@@DoomRater You could in theory do something very similar our base 10. You are basically just breaking division down into multiple subtractions, which it effectively is, you break some of the rules of what is "allowed" in certain places to do so. We do this a lot when we first learn about these ideas. You could say you know that 7 is 3 less than 10. So you could exchange every digit in the tens place for a 1 in the quotient and a +3 to the ones place. 35/7 = 1+ 28/7 = 2+1(11)/7 = 3 + 14/7 = 4+ 7/7 = 5. Here I break a rule by putting for than 9 in the ones place temporary, you make use of this type of idea by writing some of the digits "incorrectly" for lack of better word. In your example you make use of the fact you know multiplication and skip straight there, If I did the same my process would be 35/7 = 3 + 14/7 = 4 + 7/7 = 5 making use of 3x3=9. We can do this because we know the transfer between the values, KI or base 10. You write 35 as 5 horizontal lines (5x5x1) + 10 vertical lines (10x1x1) = 35. (The notation I use here, and later, is ( [number of lines] x [value of that type of line] x [value of that place in the number] ) But this number is not correctly written this way, you just fit 35 into a place that should never have more than 19 in it. I determined when you can use the trick he shows. I (wrongly) thought I could take my 7, 1 horizontal line and 2 vertical lines, and fit it into the 35, 1 vertical then 3 horizontal. Here I think I could fit it in once but rotated which I would denote by placing a singular horizontal line in the 1's place. It then looks like I have a remainder of 5 which is smaller than my 7 so I stop. So just trying to follow the video without doing this in the context of math. I would've guess 35/7 = 5 + 5/7 using this system. The reason this doesn't work is because with vertical lines we can go up to 4 in a single place, but horizontal we can only ever go up to 3. Thus we cannot do this mixing of vertical and horizontal lines while rotated. Making the system base 25 or base 16 would allow me to do this because the ration of 1 vertical line to a horizontal line in a previous place is the same as the ratio from a horizontal line to a vertical line in the same place. Does that make sense? I know it's correct, just not sure how well I explained it. Maybe doing our example problem, 35/7, in these new bases would help. In base 25, so we can have up to 4 horizontal lines and 4 vertical lines in each place, we would write 35 as 1 vertical line (1x1x25 no longer 20 cause we changed base) + 2 horizontal lines (2x5x1). We would write 7 the same and get a perfect fit as we had hoped for. Just rotate and it fits perfectly, we mark our 1 horizontal (rotated) mark and see the value is 5. Similarly in base 16, so only up to 3 horizontal (keep in mind each of these are 4 now, not 5) and 3 vertical lines in each place, we would write 35 as 2 vertical lines (2x1x16) + 3 vertical lines(3x1x1), now 7 would be written as 1 horizontal line (1x4x1) and 3 vertical lines (3x1x1). Here we cannot fit any together natively. But we could do the ole trick you used and take 1 from the 16's place and write it as 4 horizontal lines in the 1's place. So now we can mix the horizontal and vertical values correctly. Our 35 is now written as 1 vertical (1x1x16) + 4 horizontal (4x4x1) and 3 vertical lines (3x1x1). Here again we write the number "incorrectly" as we fit 19 into a place that should only ever store 15. We can now fit in our 7's, once using 1 vertical and 3 of the 4 horizontals to give us a horizontal in the ones place, cause we had to rotate so we rotate the value in the quotient and again as we are left with exactly out value remaining so 1 vertical in the ones place. We are left with 1 horizontal (1x4x1) plus one vertical (1x1x1) = 5. The biggest flaw with the trick in the current KI system is a direct result the horizontal and vertical values being on different footings, one counts up to 4 in a slot the other up to 3. So the ratio of a rotated numbers are different if they have horizontal and vertical lines, I will call these numbers with a "mixed representation". If at any point you have a divisor that has a mixed representation you may no longer use the rotating trick unless you do some manipulation to make them all one type of line (which lets be real is most likely going to be vertical, you could only make them all horizontal if its a multiple of 5). Everything else works just no rotating. If however, you build the base to be a perfect square (i.e. 4^2=16 or 5^2=25) rotating is allowed with mixed representations and it fixes a lot of issues I had with the KI numbers. KI is really closer to a base 5 system but every 5th 5 value is in base 4 which causes the mess you went through to solve 35/7. You still have to do some borrowing from higher digits to write the number "incorrectly" like I showed, but you can now rotate all numbers even if they have mixed representation. I know this was a long rant/explanation but I felt compelled to share what I figured out with everyone that was willing to learn. IKI (Improved KI) uses base 25 as displayed and has all the features of KI but with an extra bonus.

@@chammy2812 Writing numbers incorrectly, or improper numbers as I referred to them in other comments, is exactly the idea their numeral system seems to lend itself well to. After all, it makes the pattern matching easier and it does indeed seem to be possible to do in our number system, if it's broken down into other bases. And borrowing is still necessary no matter the base anyway, so might as well take advantage of the intuitive meaning of marks.

The 20% of the time is, I assume, working with 5s, 10s, 15s, and 20s? Because regular old memory can usually work just as good. If you have memorized that division by 5 is just division by 10 times 2, or that multiplication by 10 is just adding a 0, calculation with those would run just as fast if not faster than this new system. And what is a few years of memorization compared to that 80% of junk?

why would it ever be MORE confusing?

It's not because we're not used to it, it's because no borrowing system was shown to make the patterns emerge. I think he needs to show the borrowing system working with some examples and people will start to get it.

That was the most ridiculous point in the video and how in the hell is recognising shapes "geometry" lol. Your argument made 0 sense.

@@Asidders Sounds like you have no idea what Geometry is if you don't think it's about shapes. Try going back to school