Why this British operator is GETTING RID of its Brand-New Trains 

I hope not, for Chiltern's sake. They do already run Class 68s albeit with Mark 3s, they're the only other UK passenger TOC to use them. So yes, they already have drivers rated on the class and it's not like anyone's making new Mark 3 stock. But their Class 68s use AAR couplers (because the Mark 3s do), while the Mark 5a coaches are fixed rakes with bar couplers internally and AFAIK buffer and screw-link at the ends. So they couldn't just start using them, even if Chiltern had had their heads buried in the sand and weren't aware of the 5a's issues. No solid info at present though, sorry!

Well, unless things have changed since I retired from Chiltern last year then yes they have got their heads buried in the sand.

@@Cydonius1701 just for info, the Chiltern Mk 3’s are buckeye couplings in between the coaches, but screw link between the coach and the locomotive so the class 68 could could be physically coupled to a rake of Mk 5’s however, there are electrical and control differences between the Chiltern 68’s and the TPE 68‘s so if Chiltern were to take on the Mk 5’s then they would also need the TPE class 68’s to go with them.

​​@@physiocrat7143Under this current, corrupt, thieving, bats××t crazy, Tory 'government,' I can see how this can be a bit of a nightmare.

@ Cydonius. The Mark 3 is fitted with buckeye and screw couplings. Even if the Mark 5 was not, fitting a screw coupling is not prohibitive on cost of technical grounds if a future operator wanted to modify them.

Very sensible answer shows u understand fleet flaws and route gradients well. Siemens in building 185 at Krefeld properly tested 185 on very hilly route from Cologne HBF to Trier HBF through Eifel area of western Germany this like TPE route gradients and twisted curve routes at 2250bhp 3 car sets extremely quick to Accelerate. Same power as single HST power car Siemens did their homework properly researched route operating on which was reason Eifel route was chosen as almost like TPE. Spanish on other hand as we all know didn't test trains out on anything similar routes in Spain or France. The Class 221 Voyager Fleet Bombardier at time tested on twisty route from Limoges to Toulouse through Dordogne area France make sure units fit for UK terrain.

The train car's suspension should've been able to compensate for this without having to twist the car's body

@@lzh4950 because absolutely no proper rail time testing done on similar gradient route in Spain any flaws hard iron out. Main issue in Spain lot lines near factory are broad guage wider than the guage in uk result can't be tested prior to delivery in uk. Bogie frames very small like the ones under Voyager 220 fleet. Unlike Siemens 185 very thick substantial bogies giving solid comfort ride

@@rthoc71 You can tell the difference between the solid built older trans we have. The 185 is a very robust design. The new CAF units we have are also having a lot of problems and riding on those you notice they are not so solidly built. I had missed your earlier reply, Interesting that the 185 was tested on a similar route to where they would be in service. Track forces are the same as a class 37 on the 185 which shows how sturdy they are. They wanted to increase the line speed between Darlington and York and it was then we found out about the track force which limited where the line speed could be increased. I think those and the 158 are still the best units we have for comfort.

The same issue happened with the 801's so they had to pull them all one by one to check them. Makes you wonder if it is a design flaw given they are all a similar design.

High noise levels and overpower among the almost impossibility of finding compatible diesel locomotives to haul such type of Push-Pull formations, for sure are locomotive issues though.

Since then Thatcher privatised the whole network and the whole thing has gone to hell in a handcart.

I had to find an unmistakably British melody without colonial connotations lol

They go everywhere occasionally. I use trains everyday and couldn't tell you what type of service I will get tomorrow. Its also very expensive too.

Our trains used to go everywhere until Dr Richard Beeching as the Chairman of the British Railways Board wielded his axe, closing thousands of miles of railway and stations in the 1960s. Our public transport is expensive and unreliable.

Assuming they aren't on strike.

Lord Dr Richard Beeching did more damage to our railways than Goering's Luftwaffe. Plus he could not even add up. He only took into account the revenue generated by stations along the route, but he failed to include revenue from the mainline to the branchline. For example, you might not get many tickets sold at seaside resorts, but you might get hundreds of tickets sold in the city to the seaside.

@@JohnBurnet1He didn’t close anything, the government did….indeed the majority of closures took place under a Labour government, well after Mr Beeching had moved on.

Shame they probably won't refurbished them to standard only. That would at least help a little.

I read that it won’t make much difference in terms of stock availability for TP as these things are so unreliable they’ve only been timetabling for a handful of them being available anyway.

Typical . Just when things looked up a bit, with new loco-hauled services , this hapens. The 68's aren't loud, in fact quieter than previous generations of traction , it's just a sign o' the times , snowflakes buy a house near a railway -which has been there for well over a hundred years and was there first - then don't like that they can hear trains. Not long ago , we had type 4's and 8 or 9 coaches on the pennine jobs , a frequent service , and no overcrowding. Nobody complained about the noise then . Personally , I'd rather hear the 68's , as I live fairly close to the line thru' Ashton , and they do have a 'Delticy' note to them. Another aspect is that a lot of their current drivers have little or no loco experience , so may not operate them to best advantage. We do seem to have thrown our lot in with multiple units in this country. One of the reasons I packed in with what was to shortly become TPE, was this lack of loco work , and the cabs of the units then in use were unfit to keep pigs in , let alone a normally sized and shaped human. That and the excessive Sunday working and the company culture of 'do as yer told' , bits of kids in lower management jobs , very little hours on the clock , telling you how to do your job. A hateful environment . So....it looks like more overcrowding on fewer trains , again , and an effective deterrent to rail travel . With the noise thing , here's a tale ; there was once a major freight line from Manchester , thru' Stockport , forming part of a busy trans-Pennine route. It was closed in the early 80's , but there was a stone terminal close to the the commencement of the closed section . This terminal subsequently became busy , and as freight in this country mostly moves at night , when there's hardly any passenger movements , you can likely guess what happens next. Some times there were 2 stone trains a day here, but always the early one , which had a booking-on time of 01.22. Whilst the line was closed and stone traffic not much in evidence, a retired couple were sold a plot on which to build a bungalow. Then the traffic increased. Cue much snivelling . complaining and threats . We even had the owner come out in the wee hours to give us a mouthfull , and 'request' we buggered off. These complaints were , for a time , taken seriuosly, we had to jump thru' all manner of hoops, and endure lots of very inconvenient procedures adding time to the job. Not to mention shutting the engine down all the time , between moves. Not going to happen on my watch , Bub! You need the engine to keep the heaters on in winter, keep the air up , and the brakes on , as otherwise you'd have to apply ALL the wagon handbrakes each time you stopped , as the siding is on a severe falling gradient , and the buffer stop wouldn't hols a runaway, it was next stop Morrison's supermarket , which had been built right behind and above said block .I never took any notice of these ridiculous hoops, just stuck to the working instructions as they'd always been . What annoyed me most was the way the complainants were given every appeasement possible. That's how it goes these days. it seems.

The class 185's in their current configuration are just not fit for purpose .. They should be at least 4 car .. but the budget and leasing charges did not allow for that . Basically a good train, but not enough coaches.

Not to forget the railjet that inspired the upcoming Airos!

@@Thom-TRA Indeed, the OBB RailJet is my favourite European long distance train !

Even the class 91 and it’s intercity 225 sets still provide exemplary service and comfort. The nova 3 sets have apparently been found to have cracks in the mk5 carriages and just are so poor they can’t operate anymore

The UK is largely a unit based railway now and the use of cumbersome loco hauled trains makes no real sense. The fact that these trains exist is partially the fault of the original franchise specification by the DFT. While CAF is Spanish for crap LNER take note, oh dear seems it's too late on that front.

@@ianburnley6873 CAF is hardly Spanish for crap and there is no amount of cope that can deny the fact that this is a epic fail in a long list of trains produced and still running today. Even the 195s and 331s were solely a extension of a wider family under 'civity' which have been going in places like the Netherlands and Italy for years Best trains I've ever been on was a NIR Class 4000 and a Northern 331. The acceleration and comfort is so good.

We've got three videos lined up!

I hope that anyone other than Dapol makes a 00 model even though they’re getting cut

I do the Dewsbury-Leeds route. We had mass cancellations a few months back, regularly 2 trains cancelled in a row. I heard it's because Transpennine didn't hire/train enough drivers.

We haven't always struggled with push-pulls. As long ago as 1967 BR came up with the brilliant concept of a 4-REP propelling a pair of 4-TCs from Waterloo to Bournemouth where a 33 would couple up to the leading TC, pull it to Weymouth and push it back to Bournemouth to couple up to another TC/REP combo. This worked faultlessly for over 2 decades. And going back further in time the GWR autotrains provided outstanding service on many branch lines.

Because we do trains differently. The ÖBB have been around for much longer than the British franchising system has, so we had a long time to refine. We also have a very streamlined fleet compared to you guys' system, which you probably saw when you came here which may make the process easier! Most freight and anything from passenger services to high speed trains are pulled by 1016, 1116, 1216 classes, most others with 1044 and 1144 (the former now rebuilt into the latter). And with regard to multiple units, mainly 4023, 4024, 4124 and the lately 4746, 4748 and around the northeast the 4020. With diesel, the 2016 as well as the 5047 and 5022 are used nowadays. Also, as Mr. Spencer pointed out in his comment, the British have not always struggled with this, in fact i would bet with how long they utilised steam engines, they must've been able to pull this off well.

you obviously never saw the west coast main

I dunno, the HST had a pretty good run

The HST was one of the most reliable Diesel Push Pull setups. They were brought into service around 1976 and although most have now been withdrawn, A few sets still operate with the Scot rail group. So thats service life of about 45 - 47 years for the main franchisees. Still ongoing in Scotland. So I'd say they were very successful. You felt a genuine pang of sadness when these were withdrawn, people had grown up with these awesome machines and grown attached to them. I'm glad preservation groups have snapped a few up!

It will be my brother, not me

@@Thom-TRA oh I thought I heard your voice in the clip at the end 🙈 I’m sure it will still be a fantastic series! :)

@@AutumnBosco you’re not the first to confuse us lol

I just saw that!

That’s impressive. I had that on Amtrak once but that was because some lady drove her car onto the tracks. Worst Christmas ever.

Nightmare I just hope you had a seat

Ahh Felix (& Cole..... Yes I have a thing for cats!). I often end up at or going through Huddersfield.

@@paulthompson8613 luckily me and my partner had seats, right on the sun at the height of summer though, got very hot very quick

@@stanmarsh14 Huddersfield station is where Felix the cat and her apprentice Bolt are the station`s feline pest controllers!

You guys need hitachi 800s or pendelino 390 or even voyagers

Appreciate the perspective!

It makes sense for the locos to go to Chiltern already operate class 68 and the turbostars are starting to look very tatty for long distance services.

Scotrail are also looking for an HST replacement but their prior relationship with CAF might scupper that idea…

grand central is getting new voyagers from avanti cos they voyagers are being replaced with 805s and 807s

@@DigitalDiabloUK That wont happen because the 68s are going back to DRS who want to use them for freight traffic.

Thank you!

That’s another great livery

With a Class 88 electric traction ?

I've been telling my friends in Chicago that a freight locomotive in front of passenger cars is not the best idea ever...

Yes your correct as a family member had dealings with them. Its was to do with the couplings not being level putting additional stress onto the units. Locos are going back to DRS. The Loco's are heavy on fuel & tanks arent big enough.

@@Thom-TRATrue, many such trains make too much smoke and their lack of streamlining makes them slower and worse looking.

@@adam200784 Yes it was the couplings! Someone I know works for transpeninne and told me about this a long time ago. I remember Scotrail had the same issue with the class 68s putting too much stress on the MK2 coaches

@@physiocrat7143 passenger trains are much lighter than freight trains. This, freight locomotives are made to different specifications. More horsepower, more axles, more weight. Higher frequency compared to freight means more damage to tracks.

Seems like a lot of parties with a seat at the table

to be fair to the Scarborough residents, they could well have moved in at a time after trains such as the 47 and had long since been withdrawn and are accustomed to the comparatively quieter Multiple units , yes they should have a certain expectation for noise pollution near a railway line/depot but on the other hand you also have to be reasonable, if you suddenly had a significantly running the line you would notice and rightly complain if its causing you constant disturbance, also not everyone has a choice of where they live if the only property available is next to a railway line you kind of have to live with it

That is not being unreasonable. The railway is within its rights to change motive power at any time they like. What are you suggesting ? That before changing motive power, the railway gets permission from every resident ? That would be unreasonable. No one forced these people to buy a house near a railway. 100% their fault. No sympathy whatsoever !

I did some work in MID while CAF were doing T&C on the mark 5a’s, they run them at high revs to maintain a certain voltage, the level that they rev them to makes them very noisy ( especially inside the depot ). I think a lot of the problem for Scarborough residents is not so much the trains passing by, but that there is a depot just outside the centre. I was staying in a B&B for work about half a mile away from the depot and the sound really carried across from the depot, who also seemed to be running them at high revs, and they are running them like this late at night. This maybe explains the situation?

I am aware the body profile of the Class 68 meant they were unable to fit a silencer and an environmental scrubber to the exhaust. So they only fitted the scrubber. Whilst it is nice they care about the environment, the fact they care less about industrial deafness is worrying. The point is any TOC could cascade or introduce any traction to that route. They have no obligation to consult residents, who are free not to buy property next to railway lines if they prefer.

That is a long route

How was it working there?

Why make one long distance trip when you can make two for the price of one?

Today some trams in Turin are pre WW2. The Bogies and Motors are a bit younger thou

Haha that's a good idea honestly

Mainly the coaches, but lack of driver training is what’s seen them off.

Mk5A are the main issue, Poor build quality, unreliable and horrendously overcomplicated for what they are (they're pretty much the same as Class 397 vehicles Minus the traction equipment), they also suffer from software problems and have compatibility issues with the Class 68

That can't be true since the Nova 1 is older than the Nova 3

68s were orignally procured by DRS to replace some of their older locos, them being subleased to Chiltern and TPE came later.

Thanks for shining some light on the specific issues

they wouldnt bother, the mark 3s dont need replacing and theres nothing the mark 5s could offer over them other than worse availability

The Government?

I think it is whoever manufactures the seats because the trains themselves are of Japanese build and good quality

It's not so much an issue of what's gone wrong. I'd hazard a guess that the withdrawal of older units from service is largely due to ever increasing operating costs of older rolling stock such as the 125s and 225s. From a purely maintenance perspective I'd take a guess that the costs are higher, and that's without talking about the fact that it doesn't pay to train staff of rolling stock which will be removed from service sooner rather than later. Plus there are safety concerns with certain older sets which TOCs probably don't want to risk ending up in the middle of, should something go wrong.

​@@Badge2812That doesn't explain why brand new units have suspension made of granite, and seats made of ironing boards.

@@Thom-TRA They are Japanese trains and are of good quality but they were actually designed for short-distances, yet the UK is using them as a long-distance train. Liverpool to Newcastle? Manchester to Edinburgh? York to London? Here's my guess: The UK doesn't design its own trains anymore so they get them from other countries but since we're not in the 1800s anymore, these countries only design long-distance trains for high-speed rail. The UK doesn't want to waste money on a high-speed train since it's useless on the UK network, so they instead opt for one of their short-distance trains, which are more than suitable for UK's aging rail infrastructure but comes at the cost of comfort.

Apparently in the early hours one or two locos would be started at the depot in Scarborough and left to idle while they warmed up (presumably with someone sitting in the cab as I can't imagine it's permissible to leave a running loco unattended). The 68s are not the quietest of beasts and the locals didn't like their sleep ruining. Can't blame them.

I can and I do blame them ! Who made them buy a house next to the railway ? That was their choice ! In the 1980s, Scarborough had hourly Class 45s and Class 47s. Not to mention frequent and regular runs of 4468 Mallard sponsored by Scarborough Council !!

Please read my entry concerning the fragile track status of the Scarborough line and the 45 over 90 SP differential speed which allows RA1 Class 158 to do 90 mph while RA5 Class 185 and RA7 Class 68 are restricted to 45 mph. But Pacers were banned from the SP list despite their RA1 axle load due to their single axles.

Pacers got well the bloody obvious of issues... Think Sprinters would be better for the job.

@@davidty2006 from an operational standpoint the pacers had no issues at all

Modern problems require modern solutions I guess

The problem with the new trains being built (particularly the Hitachi 800 series) is that the Government imposed on the Train operators what trains and what spec they were allowed to have. This is why LNER Azuma trains have the awful hard seating. However I do wish to stress that the Government running the trains is not the issue, it's more specifically this government who hates public transport investment.

@@jordyboy62 They certainly hate everything about public transport.

@@jordyboy62erm, rail investment from government is currently at its highest level since the 1950s.

@@Bungle-UK it's quantity over quality.

Nobody wanted to buy them? What a waste to see them scrapped already…

@@Thom-TRA The chassis under the coaches are so badly cracked they need to be replaced, not repaired. They cracked because they were not strong/rigid enough for the size of the coach body on top, so, rather than replacing like for like, a new chassis would need to be designed, tested and built. That is a big cost. Far more than simply buying a similar sized coach that is better suited. The coach body would be fine, but it is useless without a chassis under it ... well, same problem. The Class 68 locos have a worse problem, they are loud when warming up. There were only 34 in service in the UK, of which TPE had 14, so that leaves on 20 maybe still in service. With such low numbers, servicing costs will be high. I suspect these TPE Class 68 locos will end up being cannibalized to keep the other 20 going. Will the Class 88 and 93 be any better? Same Caterpillar engine in them, but quite different loco (being both electric and diesel powered - I bet that will cause all manner of problems too).

Sadly, my brother filmed Merseyrail just before the 777s entered service! Guess we’ll have to come back

In 5 minutes?

@@Thom-TRA didn’t look at the duration lol

@@Foxy_ARsame here lol

Poor Bear…

Yes they were

But the defective trains in question are locomotive hauled trains. I don’t buy the whole locomotive hauled trains are more flexible than trainset argument. There’s a reason every country with better trains than the US heavily relies on multiple units.

@@Thom-TRA i didn’t say train, i said COACH. you remove the coach and replace it, it’s why there’s spares sitting in the yards at every terminal 🙄 instead of needing an entire new trainset, you only replace one single coach! i give up, you made it clear that you are talking out of your ass because the information i gave came DIRECTLY FROM ACTUAL ENGINEERS

@@bostonrailfan2427 dude you escalated that so fast. What is wrong with you? You must be a child, the way you’re acting. All I said was I’m not convinced that the benefits of switching out coaches outweigh the benefits of trainsets. But please, give up. And talk like that to me again and you won’t be welcome to watch any of my videos, little hothead.

@@Thom-TRA Also, many units in the UK can have carriage swaps. they even modified the 390 to make it easier (the original version was almost impossible due to modifications needed in the software each time)