Why Toyota And Hyundai Are Wasting Billions On Hydrogen Cars 

Working the cash register as a hydrogen fueling station has got to be the most chill job on Earth

As someone who has worked in pipeline transmission before and has a degree in metallurgy, Hydrogen infrastructure is just stupid. The gas are transported in liquefied state, you have to keep it under enormous pressure. This is like transporting Liquified Natural Gas (LNG). They keep LNG terminals far away from where people live. Hydrogen filling stations are just plain dangerous, especially if you have it close to residential areas. The hydrogen itself can also accelerate the deterioration of metal and make it brittle over time, leading to unpredictable failures. The filling of hydrogen vehicles is extremely finicky. You are releasing pressure from a liquified tank and into your vehicle. The pumping process will make the nozzles freeze due to Venturi effect. There is a ton of engineering work needed to make it safe and convenient. I think it will likely become a case where you need a specialist to fill the car for you, because a Joe Schmuck out there will mess it up and cause a massive explosion at the filling station. Right now it isn't that popular, but just wait until the masses and Karens start filling up vehicles with Hydrogen.... the potential for disaster will grow. Thank god it's not popular, I bet the engineers who worked on the infrastructure realized it's not feasible on large scale. Why does Japan want Hydrogen cars? Well, they don't have any fossil fuel resources, but have lots of ocean and nuclear power. The government must have figured out to be self reliant, they should probably use nuclear or other green power to generate hydrogen from seawater. EV Batteries means relying on China for supply. Gas cars means reliance on oil import from abroad. Japan has no good choice left and is forced to consider Hydrogen. For North America, we shouldn't even consider hydrogen cars.

You gotta not only build a car, but convince people build an entire hydrogen chain. Creating an entire industry around it. While competing with li battery industry.

The sole reason why EV is the only viable alternative to ICE is the ability to charge at home if you own your home. EV would be borderline unusable for me if I had to depend upon unreliable public charging. There is never going to be hydrogen charging at home.

Consumers still think that cars have to be filled at the station, and waiting an hour for a EV to fill up is ridiculous. Thats why the short filling time of hydrogen seems to be the solution. The thing is that for EVs, your own home is the gas station, and since you're parking it there for hours every day, there is no actual wait. You can't do this with gas and hydrogen cars. Granted, long trips require superchargers, but unless you are driving hundreds of miles every day, all you need is some travel planning for long trips.

The irony of Toyota running an ad for me on this same video of a gas powered Toyota Tacoma...

It’s amazing how expensive these cars are to run now that True Zero is charging $36 per kg.

The key comment in the video concerns Japan not having oil and natural gas reserves. Nuclear took a hit after Fukushima. Offshore wind farms is another growth area, but both countries are not going to put all their eggs in one basket.

Imagine an analogy of two solutions to get water to houses: 1- the water is distributed by an existing network of pipes and infrastructure to the houses, you open a tap and water comes out. 2- you take water at a source, use huge amounts of energy to freeze it, put it on a freezer truck and drive it to a place near the houses which uses more energy, invest in expensive new freezer infrastructure to keep the water frozen until people come and collect it that uses even more energy, when people get the frozen water home they need to use more energy to defrost it so water can come out of the tap. 1= electricity to an EV 2= hydrogen to a hydrogen car Anyone can instantly see how totally insane option 2 is without needing to understand anything else about the technology.

I remember when Arnold Schwarzneger did that hydrogen publicity stunt when he was governor of CA.

You missed an important point. Its not that Japan doesn’t understand or care about practicality, cost of EVs. Unfortunately most of the supply EV chain is heavily exposed to China, which creates a risk if they built an industry on that.

2 million for a gas station sounds like a lot but that's about the same as permitting and installing a greenfield drive through coffee shop on the Colorado front range in 2018. That number was either very dated or an outright lie.

It seems so weird to me that the whole zero carbon emission thing is based on facing up to the scientific reality of climate change, but the premise of hydrogen fuel vehicles is "What if physics and maths were different?"

Love this channel. Keep up the brilliant work

I think that we will see commercial fusion power before hydrogen powered cars are successful,sometime after 2330 a.d. maybe?

LA resident here. Never have seen the hydrogen KIA's. Meanwhile I see a hydrogen Toyota's every week at least

Either they don't understand science or they have a technical breakthrough up their sleeve.

The only way hydrogen makes sense is by creating a bigger energy supply than needed and using excess energy to create pink hydrogen. This would act as a psudo-battery storage of sorts. But as we know, Japan closed all their plants down so it is more of a pipe dream.

Where a ton on u2b channels talk a lot, but say little, this channel says a lot in a condensed way. Excellent script work.

Step one have cheap nuclear power, until you have very cheap electricity it will be hard for hydrogen to be viable, however cheap electricity is likely in the future so running hydrogen powered devices as an RD project makes sense, hydrogen heating may be a better use case if we find better organic batteries in the future that don’t require metals with limited supplies

It's a small molecule, it leaks out.

pretty sure these guys are betting on fleet sales

BMW made a hydrogen version of their 12-cylinder 7-series called the Hydrogen 7. It ran on both regular gasoline and hydrogen stored in a liquid form in a tank behind the rear seats. Engineering Explained did a good job of discussing many of the technical challenges involved, like how the hydrogen has to be kept at -253C and will vent itself over time to cause the entire tank to drain in 10-12 days (can't park the car in a garage). The video is worth a watch: v=AouW9_jyZck

Many if not most of the refueling stations are broken around LA most of the time. Like EV charging stations its a total roll of the dice if you can actually get to a working station before your vehicle dies.

Isn't "green" hydrogen still emitting a lot of greenhouse gas also? Those wind mills don't build themselves. Nothing is really "green", yet.

I feel no body has said anything against the car itself. The charging Infrastructure has issues. Infact, it is a very reliable and comfortable car.

Let me guess: Tax breaks and PR?

Ive given this some thought, short and sweat you need to get rid of that mixture in a crash no matter what, can we configre the mixtures and the release of it onto the road without a major bang, even skywards maybe. But if those cells or cylinders go, you really dont wanna be close, it makes an easygas looks like a firework.

Much easier to plug in at home and charge at night for a fraction of the cost. Driving off with a full tank every day.

Subscription model with home delivery of hydrogen... Boom

So... WHY are Toyota And Hyundai wasting billions on hydrogen cars? Is it just about scooping-up a few government subsidies or is there something more to it?

The hydro cars are not completely developed but is slowly coming to life .They are still on the experimental basis and are not for sale yet !

Imagine if all of these billions would have been invested in metro's, trams and trains. You can power these with green energy directly, no need for batteries or the inefficient in-between that is hydrogen.

The fuel speed "advantage" has a lot of caveats to consider outside of the ideal scenario of a highway pit stop with all 3 choices. Even in the limited locations that have hydrogen stations, they are the least common ones to find by far. For electric vehicles that have the longest charge up time, many drivers can skip this fueling stop altogether by charging where they already park, or even at closer parking spots dedicated to charging in some locations. It's not uncommon for an EV driver to never visit a fast charger in multiple years of driving, and spend the least amount of time fueling as a result despite having the slowest fueling vehicle. Compared against gas and electric, hydrogen cars are the most expensive of the 3, lose the most cargo space to fuel storage, have the most expensive fuel cost per mile driven and have the fewest number of "fast fueling" stations. All these tradeoffs for the theoretical benefit of filling up faster than charging a battery, when someone charging up an EV at home is still getting a significantly better fueling experience.

It doesn’t help that these hydrogen cars have really boring designs. Part of the appeal of these “startup” EV companies is their unique car designs that stand out.

The long term effect of our worn out battery waste needs to be talked about every time we talk about hydrogen powered sources. It's probably the single biggest reason why we should consider hydrogen.

This just implies that FCV will wither away and BEVs will take over!

The big energy companies have spent decades researching alternatives to oil and gas for cars. Because they are in the business of selling energy, they would take whatever alternative works and run with it. So far, nothing.

Hydrogen is the _lightest_ element, NOT the smallest. Helium is smallest by far, which is why it was never viable in airships despite being non-flammable (leaks through pretty much anything except a steel cylinder).

Each Toyota lot around here has 10 used Mirai on their lot. Hella cheap

Because wind farms have massive amount surplus and hydrogen production is possible to calibrate on real time, it means every wind farm must make own hydrogen production or any other alternative fuel production. It should be on law if anyone want to open wind farm. Currently wind farms loose about 50% thanks for peak production, when they can sell ZERO production. That number goes only worse if green production nears to 30% from total production. Over 30% means they earn may be 25% only from total production as real sale. So green energy is so wasteful

If you cannot establish an infrastructure for fuel, it doesn't matter how damn good the tech is. Look at the dearth of charging stations for EV's now. Putting the cart before the horse does no one any favors. You're looking at 20+ years to get the infrastructure up and running, assuming someone will take the risk to finance it. Wishing don't make it so. Cash does.

The first model will be dubbed the “Hindenburg”

Just think if they had invested this in the BEV tech, we are already at the cusp of going mainstream with Sodium Ion batteries!

Rather spend this money and all the VC and investor's money on AI cars (about 150 billion)and shift towards public transit

Exciting time to come for Hydrogen, maybe later. Not sure if everyone can see it or not...

EVs require significant cost reductions and better carbon footprints to become feasible. At the moment they are purchased by people who are excited about the technology and subsidised often by people who cannot afford these vehicles (via the government).

Interesting. There used to be a bus route in London which mainly employed hydrogen buses. It was canned about five years ago and the explanation was that the route was deemed redundant (rather than cost).

I believe hydrogen might have a place to get aviation and large trucks to zero emissions but it just doesn't make sense for private passenger vehicles where the size and weight of the battery isn't as big of a problem as for large cargo trucks and planes. The mistake seems to be more trying to force private cars to go hydrogen rather than setting up a smaller number of hydrogen truck refuelling stations which would require fewer locations to become viable.

I think this is just Toyota saying "we will be green with hydrogen" while the go all in on hybrids and plug in hybrids. They know it is not time to go all electric.

I get Japan and Korea's motivation to integrate hydrogen into their economy but they'll have to solve desalination and energy supply before they can be produce massive amounts of hydrogen, they should have started there.

The cost of hydrogen vs the cost of electricity means hydrogen is a dud when competing with battery vehicles, even when the cost of batteries is considered.

I don't consider H2 cars as a waste. They may cost billions in research and small scale production, but there has been lots of R&D performed. I don't think of R&D as a waste cos there is a good chance that whatever was learnt can be applied to other things later on. Anyway, we got ICE and EV vehicles. It's always good to have other plans in case the move to EV fails. We will probably have a better idea of EVs working out on a longer term basis after another 5 to 10 years, when probably there will be millions of EV vehicles needing a battery change. If even after that, EV is seen as doing well, we may not need other options, but till then H2 or other types of vehicle energy storage research is probably still a good back up plan. EDIT : To add a real life example. Corning made tough glass for limited industrial use in the 1960s (doubt they turned a profit on limited runs). No idea how many thousands or millions they spend. When iphones happened, they were ready with Gorilla glass, based on research they conducted in the 1960s. If they have not spend the resources on the early research, they would not be used in a substantial number of smart phones now. Was that research / early limited production a waste?

Its good companies investing in diversifying energy sources. Cost is a factor of scale so the cost will come down eventually. All these cost discussions will be swept away once fossil fuels are depleted

If I had a hydrogen car, I would need to drive 3 hours to fuel up.

It is clear these top car companies never wanted to enter EV or hydrogen fuel market in a big way. The whole facade was a greenwashing effort just to showcase their clean image. So either these companies will take over a good innovative startup soon or they will vanish one day!

A perfect example of how a government can spend billions on the wrong thing and make the private sector to do the same. So you better vote for competent people.

I wouldn’t call it ‘wasting’ - especially is it’s testing and deploying unconventional and new technology. Everything costs money. People said the same thing about ‘wasting billions’ on the internet, EV, blockchain. Shortsighted analysis this video is

i shared this to the Hydrogen Car Owners group on Facebook and they blocked me

2:50 - what about pink hydrogen? Hydrogen made by power provided by nuclear power - either by first converting the nuclear power into electricity and then using it for electrolysis of water, or by using the very high temperatures created by fission to split the water directly.

Elon Musk was 100% right when he called Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles "Hydrogen Fool Cells", because only a fool would ever buy one or believe that hydrogen will ever win out in the market place for consumer transportation.

I feel like subsidy has become synonymous with "waste-of-money"

$180 to go 350 miles 🙄

Nothing wrong with backing 2 horses

If you'd like a bit of a 'down and dirty' engineering level explanation on the question of hydrogen, check out Paul Martin's Linkedin - he's a chemical scientist with the University of Toronto and lays out very plainly why H2 simply won't work in passenger vehicles.

Hydrogen I wonder why ? 🤔. The fuel cell is not easy fix, it only gives some volt per cell, you have to stack hundreds, and everyone has to have hoses with oxygen and hydrogen to maintain the process, if you get any dirt into the system the power will drop. The fuel cell, as I been told can not accelerate good enough, so you have to have a battery. If you are outside in cold winter you have to keep the cell warm, or it will freeze apart, it contains water. And as others have said, to fill up is a hazardous thing, hydrogen is worlds smallest atom, it will take any chance to leak. Japan has got a lots of nuclear plants, if I am correct, they also produce hydrogen as some kind of biprodukt.

A bucket sized vessel with compressed air of TEN bars exploding kills people around. A H2 tank in a car with SEVENHUNDRED bars exploding and also igniting acts like a military air fuel bomb and destroys many buildings.

Hydrogen cars are a dead end. Hydrogen can work for planes tho

I think the potential of hydrogen vehicles lies in trucks, lorries and tractors. Using batteries to power heavy machinery just won’t work.

I don't know how anyone can make a video on hydrogen-powered cars, and Japan, without looking at pink, purple or red hydrogen and HTTR and HTGR reactors. If the Japanese plan to produce both hydrogen and mechanical/electrical power from HTGR reactors works out, then a hydrogen economy is not only possible, butt it beats event else, other than fusion.

Ev is the best option, once the solid state battery in place.

Water is an emission. It's just not a polluting emission.

H could be viable only as green H, gray H totally defeats the purpose of 'clean' fuel. It would the same as charging your EV from a gasoline generator. Why bother with a hydrogen produced by "methane generator", if you can fill up with a methane-converted gas car?

This channel is dope and I'm a huge fan. This is a poor analysis though. I share the belief that hydrogen will not be the fuel of the future, but citing vehicle sales at this point (you know-- before the infrastructure is reliably in place) doesn't make a for a convincing this-product-line-is-a-flop case. It's all good though. I'll be waiting to slap that like button when the next WSM video drops.

Hydrogen cars keeps the public distracted.

cant have hydrogen without fusion.... Livermore recently made progress but it still a ways off

Because California, which is the biggest retail vehicle market in the world, told all the makers that hydrogen was going to be the coming thing and to sell in Ca makers had to offer an H car. Swartznegger left office & Ca H drive died. !

The point about charging infrastructure is very telling and simultaneously exposes a hidden trump card of evs over both hydrogen and petrol and that is home charging. The beauty of it is as follows. Rich people in general have larger homed with space to install home chargers. Rich people are the same people who buy new cars. Home charging is both very convenient not having to go to a gas station and very cheap or for particularly smart people free. This combination ensures electric cars will remain popular with those who buy new cars. As the public charging network improves to meet the demand of drivers away from home it will allow more and more people to give up ice as electric car convince increases.

Electricity is not source of energy

Basicly, synthetic fuel. It will be more expensive as solar energy is very dispersed. Maybe H2 productoin is easier to optimise then synthetic hydrocarbons.

People dispraising EVs in favor of hydrogen power vehicles in 2024 are just an exercise in doubling down and not wanting to admit they are wrong.

Are they betting on fusion or nuclear power ultimately being used to power cheap hydrogen production?

18 cents a mile isn’t bad considering my 2024 Lexus costs 23 cents a mile

I think they should build the hydrogen production facilities first.

Because they can afford to waste it; Its essentially a first mover gamble with money they find under the couch cushions.

I keep coming back to 1 word, Hindenburg.

When you price the ownership cost of hydrogen fuel cells vs battery electric vehicles when these technologies become mature. It's impossible for hydrogen to be cheaper.

I would get a hydrogen car if there was a hydrogen fuel station near me (and if they were a bit more affordable)

This is situation is a bit of a mystery to me. Toyota seems like such a practical company, but as far as I understand, hydrogen is never going to be a mainstream energy source unless there is some major technological breakthroughs.

Nice productio!

There are only 2 industries that need pure h2. Production of ammonia for fertiliser and green steel from iron ore. Most other uses are a terrible waste.

His can such savvy successful companies seem to get H2 vehicles so wrong???

I feel hydrogen cars would be more intriguing in northern US states, where there r far more rural communities, long distance commutes, and frigid cold temperatures in the winter. I find most EVs to be absolutely ugly vehicles as well (sorry, just had to throw that in there. Lol). Despite concerns about EVs in the northern states and what happens after running a lifecycle of an EV, the US just isn’t merely close to being ready for hydrogen cars. Can the US flourish if it was split between the use of hydrogen and electric? Me, living in the north, would love to see hydrogen vehicles take a step up, but I’m sadly not optimistic. It wouldn’t surprise me to see families in the north transition into having both and EV and IC vehicle depending upon the need and travel distance. Then, over time, seeing a larger investment in hydrogen vehicles. Regardless, the prices need to drop. I’m Not willing to spend $50,000 for a new vehicle and will probably never spend money on a used EV considering the battery costs more than the car. Quite a predicament…

A hydrogen infrastructure is hugely prohibitive! Doesn't make any sense financially. Also long term reliability questions of the fuel cells in cars & trucks.

Essentially, EVs are rich people toys bc theres not enough lithium for all people who own gas cars to transitiom to EV. Therefore, there needs to be a different solution for the average person if the green car problem is going to be pushed.

Hmm.. I got it! Genetically modified Super Horses that can carry multiple people on their backs without a wagon and run at freeway speeds :P Can I have a subsidy?

What happened to the good old solar panel cars?

Yet every objection applies as well to electric vehicles. They're powered by emissions ultimately, doubly because of loss during transmission from power plant to charging receptacle (and sitting idle also drains them, requiring more emissions in turn). And without government subsidy interference/distortion, both cost mucho. But EVs have this great advantage in America: lobbying money and frontrunned profits for Congress. Fact.

I think the future might be hydrogen, but like 100 years from now. Not in our lifetimes.

Why not just skip the whole exercise and just run cars on Natural Gas, given that Nat Gas is what they need to make Hydrogen? You could even create home filling stations since most homes have Nat Gas.