I wish cell phone makers would learn from this, I would be happy if they would make a phone that's slightly thicker to gain hours of battery life. but no, everyone wants to make everything as thin as possible...
@@ihatesmartphones YES YES YES. And stop this nonsense of building the battery in so that you can't replace it without returning the whole phone to the manufacturer.
Apple and all the follow-me companies must be making a killing from the parents of self-obsessed teens who buy these wafer-thin phones to stuff in their butt pockets to look sexy, and then sit down and bend them all to hell. I'm also tired of non-replaceable batteries, and worse the "battery bloat" that makes the foil encased battery packs to act like pneumatic pillows and blow the phones apart while charging. I'll gladly take a slightly thicker phone to accommodate a battery with a structurally rigid case so all sorts of bad things don't happen. Form follows function every time.
@@BrianG61UK A removable battery of course is also useful for a good ol' hard reset, which I've needed to do more than once. Bad apps can temporarily brick a phone to where the power button doesn't even work, but popping the battery does!
Imagine for a minute, that there was a device that could boost the battery voltage to 1.05V... You'd get another hundred hours... Something small enough to clip onto the battery before you install it into the compartment... Wonder if anyone could ever find something like that... HA! Anyway, 9V batteries are like R50 each; 4 AA batteries are R25. So not only are you getting 4 times the life, you're getting it for half the cost. AA is the standard these days - that's what's most sold and therefore most developed - choosing ANY other battery (except for maybe an 18650) is pissing into the wind.
Also, in my experience, 9V batteries are also harder to find these days, my impression is that the market seems to be focusing on AA and to a lesser degree on AAA for non-rechargeable devices.... You can still generally find AA and AAA in random corner stores but not so much other types.
I wish more meters used AAs. Modern meter chips can work on 2.5V or less, which makes 9V batteries quite wasteful. Replace LDOs with micro-power switching regulators and you can get another 30-40% extra battery life from a 4xAA pack.
Not just the most common, also the cheapest per watt-hour among primary cells. 2.5-3X the capacity for slightly more money and bulk than comparable quality AAA.
My decades old Fluke uses a 9v. In 20-30 years, I've replaced it twice. (that I can recall) I also have a few museum quality _analog_ meters that have no batteries at all, or a single AA. (they have to have power to measure resistance, etc.)
Indeed! I would think Fluke wouldn’t go using something that didn't work well, but be careful, lest You offend the pen lite battery fan boys! 😆 AA’ and AA’s have their place, but I prefer a Fluke with a 9 Volt battery. Lees chance of leakage, and the argument on availability and price; Are You kidding me? Try looking on the Internet! And once You start adding BT and all this other junk, You really aren’t talking a practical dependable Multi meter, are we? Appreciate Your comment!
Good think piece! I also really like the Saturn VI rocket model in the background. I worked for Boeing, and one of the Washington State sites had a 7 foot tall model of it in the lobby of one of the buildings. That was cool as well. I so wanted to take off the third stage! 😆
I am sick and tired of finding devices that are big enough for AA but require AAA instead. Someone should slap those engineers in the face. What planet do they live on?!
welll... im quite a fan of AAA, for remote controlls for example they use so little and i really like them not being heavy. triple A lasts about two years or more in my tv remote anyways
I am using AA NiMH accumulators everywhere, so 4 x AA was a very good choice. I really like it. And 9V batteries are quite expensive if you need to replace them often and the 9V accumulators don't worky very well.
i haven't seen any other mfg make videos on why they made the decisions they did... thank you, Dave. PS definitely want one of these now that i know you have the best interests and design of your product in mind
I have actually been putting off getting a logging multimeter for awhile to get my self one of these Cant wait to get my hands on one while supporting your channel! Also all the others use Bluetooth and long term logging over Bluetooth is just an unnecessary pain
EEVblog Which is a bit sad when one realizes that Bluetooth has now been around for nearly 20 years, though it does not help that it is yet another technology crammed into a very crowded 2.4GHz ISM band with so many sources of interference that can momentarily jam it. My first PDA, a Compaq iPaq Pocket PC running Windows CE, included Bluetooth back in 1999-2000, which was actually pretty reliable back then, but then there was not much in the way of WiFi and other 2.4GHz devices at that point and Bluetooth was literally its wireless network connection at up to whopping 1Mbps.
I would really like if there were some sort of standard for lithium rechargeable batteries. All modern cellphones have their own format, it would be really nice to get off-the-shelf batteries for a wide range of phones and even devices like multimeters...
The big bonus is the battery cost for AA is the best, AAA cost about double AA with half the life. I hate electronics that use AAA batteries for that reason, half the life for double the cost.
@@1ohtaf1 same here AAA and AA are the same price, tho AA has almost three times the capacity. but i dont mind AAA batteries, if device doesnt draw much its okay, but in this case his battery choice is good, especially they made it in the way it discharges untill 1,05v, which is excellent if you want to use rechargable batteries
Personally I don't mind the double A's. Always have decent ones lying around. Interesting to see the logic behind it. Data sheets are great if you put in the effort to get a well thought of design. Can't wait for the release of the meter ^^
When my 9v batt was dead and I needed to use my meter, I used two 18650 in series and plugged to the contacts of my meter and it worked fine (even at 7V).
The cheap ones almost never use individual encapsulated AAAA cells - just a simple stack of rectangular wax-coated cells with a piece of cardboard between them.
Alkaline batteries will probably use cylindrical cells, to contain the electrolyte, whereas carbon-based ones will usually contain cheap rectangular cells.
My late 1970's UEI M110 analog meter uses 2 double A's and a 15 volt camera battery. That meter was made in Japan. Newer Korean made M110's use a 9 volt and 2 double A's.
I have two multimeters which use 9V pp3 batteries, and it is quite a chore to take them out for charging (I am using NiMHs). So I fitted a charging socket and charging indicator lamp (3mm LED) to each meter, and I have found this to be very satisfactory. The meters can still be used while on charge.
Be aware that by doing this you likely seriously compromised the safety of the meter. Not an issue if you only ever use it for ELV work but a big problem if you ever use it for mains work.
TEM's could be deployed publicly, at least there's no technical reason why they can't. But well any old joe can turn that kind of Plutonium into a bomb, that's why we don't have them. It's not a technology limitation.
AA batteries are easier to find, much cheaper, and have a higher energy density than 9V or AAA batteries. The only choice in non-rechargeable batteries.
If you mix batteries in different states of charge you may end up with the weakest one being subjected to reverse polarity and leaking. (And you are not covered by any battery leakage guarantee if you do that.) Maybe not too likely with a 5mA draw but definitely an issue on higher drain items.
Somewhat related: I've seen a few cases where a multi-battery solution was used not due to size or lifespan, but for (physical) rail-separation. EG: an electronic sudoku-toy my parents used to have: used 2 batteries for the logic and another one solely for the LCD-Backlight
its lazy enginneering and less parts costs for voltage lines, not an improvement, my cheap chinese clock uses 4xaaa, and taps off at a couple of points to steal different voltages
I am used to collect "empty" alcaline cells and recharge them. Works very good. I only had a problem with one brand: Duracell. I was unable to charge them up again. Looks like they added some kind of diode or fet in series. So that is what you pay for: Preventing the user to extend the lifetime by the factor of 10 upwards...
i had a multimeter that ran from a single triple A it lasted months from a 1100mAh NIMH battery with constant use!! Battery was 0.8v when it finally died! Crazy long lasting life!!!
it was a mechanical meter i guess, the battery was only used when you did resistance mode, other modes are powered by the load, thus you can live with no battery in it some times
AA vs AAA (vs 9V) is one reason I just ordered one. I _loathe_ devices that use AAA's. Yes please let me pay 2x $ of 1/2 mAh capacity (or worse). I bought some PlanetBike headlights that use 2xAA's to power a crazy bright white LED - awesome! (made me cry when I saw their red tail light only available in a AAA version. They _could_ have run it on a single AA). Almost no device on the market needs the space savings of a AAA, especially w/ efficient buck convertors. A single AA is better than 2 x AAA.
Yes the bigger the better !! I am more than HAPPY to have a slightly bigger case in my BIG hands, Easier to handle, with larger push buttons where appropriate for the larger fingers, I Dislike the cell phones that have such small push buttons that when you try and push just one button you push two or three at the same time !!! Just NOT HANDY AT ALL !! Good video Dave, as always.
Zylon FPV There are a fair number of smoke detectors which use AA batteries in certain segments, the 9V batteries are most common as backup power sources in the hardwired AC powered smoke detectors as they do not ordinarily need a lot of sustained power since they spend most of their time mains powered. But in the non-hardwired and wireless model smoke detectors as well as CO, explosive gas, and heat detectors (an option to smoke detection in environments that do not lend themselves to typical smoke detectors, like garages, attics, or crawl spaces) you will encounter greater use of AA batteries due to their much greater capacity versus 9V batteries.
Dave, could you please do a video showing us the whole process of creating this new multimeter, from beginning to end? The goal is to show what went wrong, what delayed the product "why took it so long", like a timeline, and etc... This way, we the viewers who aspire to create stuff can have a more practical view on product development and manufacturing, by seeing your case as a "case study"... Thanks in advance!
EEVblog2 would it be available afterwards for the rest? I am particularly very curious on the time frames and the whole "trap for young players: from idea to shipment".
Please test AA and AAA USB-C rechargeble bateries, they have micro buck converter insido to lower 4v to 1.5v, let us see ripple etc.... How much discharge current they support etc...
I would be interested to see the battery life on a set of freshly charged LSD NiMH batteries (like Eneloops or ReCyckos). You may want to revise your power system to allow for a cut-off voltage of 0.8V or so (a buck-boost converter at the battery input to get the 4.2V, then LDO down) so rechargeables work properly.
Finally, someone saying this! AA has DOUBLE the energy of AAA for the same price and much more than 9V batteries. The 9V are about 2x the price of 2 AA batteries also.
There are 2S Li-ion battery packs in 9V format. Voltage is high enought for practically any device using this format and 550-600mAh capacity at 7.4V nominal (4.3Wh - roughly 2x of AA Alkaline at 200mA load - 2.2Wh)
18650 is a 'now' battery, even tesla dont use an 18650, they use their own size they reckon is better for overall power density in the thousands they use in a car, better to stick with aa
Jusb1066 What on earth are you talking about, 18650s are the most common form factor for lithium-ion batteries. There exist many other less common form factors like 26650s or whatever format Tesla is deciding to use now, although they used to use 18650s, regardless, why does Tesla have any bearing on what battery is suitable for a multimeter of all things? Also: wtf is a 'now' battery?
The tricky bit is you can't use a regular wall-wart directly because the insulation on it's output cable is not adequately rated. So you either need an isolated DC-DC or a custom mains power supply.
I hacked in a standard barrel plug connector from an old ADSL router (fits 9-12 volt DC adapters) to one of those cheap yellow chinese multimeters. Nice thing about the barrel connector is that it has a builtin switch which is triggered when you plug it in. It worked fine, except there was some jitter in the measured value, most notably when measuring zero it would flash the minus sign. A small SMD ceramic cap from a dead fluorescent light bulb took care of that. Drilled a hole on the side of the case of the appropriate size near the LCD screen. I do not use it for mains stuff powered that way, of course. Just checking batteries, resistances and such. Earlier than that I did something even more crude: Two cables soldered directly to the battery contacts. A non-rechargeable battery will, in fact take something of a charge, so by feeding the other end of the cables >9 volts for a few seconds I get a few minutes of use before the low battery warning and inaccurate measurements.
Juan Herrero be VERY careful with this, as if you happen to use the meter on something with high voltage in it (say you are repairing a photo flash, which has a 400V capacitor) and you touch the barrel plug (negative or positive doesn't matter), you WILL certainly know you did by screaming in pain *because you WILL get a shock, given the battery in multimeters is NOT isolated* from the probes!
But its linear, its pissing half of the power when the battery is full. Is the filtered output of buck converter too noisy for the low measurement ranges?
Yeah my least favorite part of my Fluke 177 is the poor battery life of the 9v, and its not even doing any of the fancy processing this one is. I finally bit the bullet last time, bought a Energizer Lithium at twice the price. Seems to be hanging in there pretty good so far. Dont know if its worth the extra cost though.
Devices that have no reason to slim down or could easily fit AAs but which use AAA instead for no discernible reason is a pet peeve of mine. It’s like the engineers never looked at the mAH costs.
Still, "professional" gear in different fields seems to use 9 V while a large part of consumer stuff uses AA. And as an exception confirming the rule, I've got a neatly engineered AOR handheld scanner that takes 4 AA cells without sacrificing any external dimensions. The only downside is that Ikealoops won't fit.
Your have an engineer's mind to the cell lol, it's one day I will treat myself to this great product you have crafted. When ever it is released to us public's
Do rechargable AA/AAAs have more capacity than the same size alkaline ones. Good quality AA NiMH are usually 2000mAh, AAA are usually 850mAh. Why dont Alkalines ever have the mAh printed on them.
they vary according to load, at low load such as clocks, they have maybe over 3000mah , at high loads, nimh give their stated capacity and alkalines lose half of theirs
Still very valuable consumer information. Most products are required to state their 'quantity' on the packaging. Why did battery manufacturers get a waiver?
It would not be valuable, it would just be confusing. Alkalines have a much higher ESR than NiMh and Li-Ion so it doesn't make sense to use a mAh figure.
If you use AA batteries for capacity and not "getting into shelf life territory" i would rethink using them. A NiMH cell costs like 4-5 times more than a alkaline and lasts more than 10 years. So if you drain a Alkaline battery in less than 2 years or maybe one it was wasted money in fact. Multimeters run years and years on alkalines, would be interesting to compare the aging/self discharge with the real energy use over this period of time :D
AA batteries have more capacity than the 9V although there are some multimeters ( agilent ) that uses 9V batteries and doesn't drain too much energy when using its basic functions. Off course logging operations will deplet more.. 9V batteries can provide better output voltage for analog internal circuits on the multimeter but that can be achieved with with switching power supplies. The clamp meter UT204A drains 10mA on DC A from the poor 9V battery and was allso my poor choice on a clamp meter for Solar panels, car and electrical board current measuring
Good answer. Too bad I just bought your BM235. Didn't know the 121GW was coming. Oh well, can't have too many meters ... can you? Maybe the next one will have a rechargeable LiPo with a USB connector for charging and data transfer.
I see now. Calibrating a flux capacitor is a lengthy process, and it also requires a fair amount of power. It makes sense that battery life would be a priority.
Duracell are no longer 'good quality' cells, here in the UK. Their cells are the only major brand of cells that leak when they go flat. I've lost count of the pieces of kit that I've seen which have been damaged by Duracell cells/batteries leaking. I've also bought several genuine Duracell multi-packs (with long date codes) which have contained several dead or low capacity cells, and which will be guaranteed to leak within a short time of being put into equipment.
BigClive did a test of various brand AA's. Duracell were the worst. Interesting how the Ultra Power graph is the same as their standard version. It seems they established themselves as the leading brand in the 1980s and knew that the consumer would never bother comparing discharge curves. The brand identity is very strong.
9V blocks may be a relict from ancient times when "LDO"s still required a voltage drop of >1V to get a stable voltage out even with load transients. But that time is gone. You get cheap LDOs with ground currents
Well, with the transmit power being at least a couple W, you'd need that to get good battery life. To be honest, for that kind of application, the best kind of battery would be a 13AH Ni-MH rechargable F size cell. Harder to find, yes, but great capacity.
Fluke 287 multimeter uses 8 (in words: eight) AA-batteries - that's a pain in the neck if those run out of power. I switched to NiMh-batteries because recharging within 2 hrs is much faster than finding new batteries and properly dispose the old ones. Here I would really like to have 2 LiPo-batteries in series that should be rechargeable via a µUSB-connector - the multimeter costs almost 600€, so that's definitely not the cost-driver.
So if I've understood this correctly: the 9V battery is worse for battery life because you're using linear regulators, which piss away power to drop the voltage. Because of the linear regulators, it's more efficient to have less voltage 'overhead'. Question: would it be more advantageous to use a 9V battery if you'd used switch mode regulators in stead of linear regulators? I know it theoretically might, but I wonder if it would practically be possible. And also: would it be feasible to use switch mode regulators in a precision application such as a multimeter.
Too right. I've lost count of the number of my devices that have been damaged by leaking duracells. I even had a duracell AA leak in a kitchen clock!!! I'm back to Energizers now - I've never had one of those leak. The fact that you can bulk buy Energizer Industrial cheaply sweetens the deal for me :-)
You guys aren't making it up saying that Duracell leak! A family member gave me 2 huge gallon size bags of alkalines to bring to work and recycle, they were mostly a mix between Duracell and Energizer. A real high volume of the duracells were leaking, some of them were so freshly leaking from jostling the bag around that you could hear little bubbles coming from some cells. I was so intrigued at the mess that I dug through the cells and only a couple energizers were leaking, they were from the oldest bag so they were dead for a while. The only difference between the old and newer bags of duracells was that the electrolyte dried up... More hadn't leaked with a few months age. As a mainly rechargeable user this surprised me, I'd expect it if they were sitting for years, not 4 months max.
tohopes yes, that is also the question that I am thinking of. I am sure Dave will have checked this option and surely has a good reason not doing it. Maybe he will explain ?
tohopes Possible reasons: * Might introduce noise/error? * Long term life is poor. * Dave previously bought a Samsung Galaxy Note 7 😛 I'd like to know too. To me, it seems odd to not have a rechargeable device in this age. But maybe there's a technical reason not to.
Because AA cells are available literally everywhere, even places without an electrical grid. Also it takes 3 minutes to swap in a new set of cells as opposed to 3-4 hours to charge a LiPo or Lion cell.
Abe Lincoln That depends on the implementation, there's certainly no reason it couldn't contain user replaceable lithium cells just like AAs, also just imagine you're data logging and notice oh crap I forgot to replace the low batteries in there, well no worries with rechargeables, I'll just plug in the charger or a power bank so it'll keep going, seems better and makes more sense to me than having to stop, find batteries and replace them...
Agreed, I can see how a rechargeable unit would be advantageous in a lab situation, however I would think twice about charging a unit while it was taking measurements. If I have lots of electrical outlets to charge the thing I'd likely be using a bench meter anyhow. To my conception hand held units are for field service, hence my preference for lithium 9v.
I hate 9V batteries in meters. They're always dead when you need them. Even my best multimeter with OLED display has a 9V battery and dies almost instantly. WTF... AAAs are the last resort, like in TV remotes where the thickness seems to matter aesthetically. They are only a bit smaller than AAs, but have 1/3 of the capacity. So AAs = good choice, man, thumbs up :) I don't understand when and who managed to persuade us that thin is beautiful. I know Steve Jobs did with laptops, phones and tablets, which must be as thin as possible for some reason beyond my comprehension. If Apple made a 2x thicker phone with 3x the battery capacity - they would have ruled the business world single-handedly; instead they rule the snob world only and become essentially like cordless phones from the last century, always charging whenever not in use :-P Fortunately there are manufacturers who make thick phones with battery reaching 12000mAh :D